Urg, who the hell cares? Are we going to go all Rev. Wright on Obama now? Is *that* what we are doing? Because it is starting to seem like it. Oh, let's go dig up everything offensive Rick Warren has said, and use it against Obama because Obama picked him to deliver a goddamn prayer!

BAH!

Maybe I'm offended as an atheist that we have a goddamn prayer at all, and we have to go through these bullshit make-believe sessions where we suspend our understanding of science and all act like F'in Santa is real!

Maybe every other faith is offended because only Christians are represented!

This whole thing is bullshit. But frankly, I'm tired of hearing about it.

This kind of reporting Aravosis is doing only works with Republicans who will latch onto anything that could be construed as anti-Muslim to further justify their cause.

Dems actually want peace in the mid-east.

See, at this point, a Republican would have taken it a step further and found the absolute worst statements al-Assad has made throughout his life and then somehow created the narrative that Warren shares these same beliefs.

Aravosis might be a newbie though so he's not as practiced as the GOP at this kind of MacCarthystic technique.

I'll keep asking this until someone gives an intelligent answer. Why when arguing about Obama's choice of Rick Warren does no one explain why Joseph Lowery was also invited? These two invitations should not be looked at as separate and unequal. It means something.

All of this could have been avoided if Obama had simply chosen Rev. Jim Wallis, an Evangelical, to give this prayer.

This was a poor decision, whatever your views, I think we can agree on that.

More on Wallis here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Wallis

He is pro-civil unions for gays, fyi.

Come on. Do we realy have to do this? Really? Then can we point out how fucked up Israeli policy toward Palestinians is? Nobody comes out clean. Every country in the region murders innocents in the name of their people's suffering. Rick Warren's interpretation of the complexities of Mid East politics is the very least -- the very, very least of the issues we need to be talking about regarding that region.

Everyone has a right to their feelings on the selection of Risk Warren to give the inaugural's opening prayer. I, for one, wish it was someone else. The symbolic inclusion of Warren and the right-wing faction he stands in for cuts both ways -- as many have argued here. On the one hand, Obama is reaching out to a sizable, if reprehensible coalition, fulfilling his promise to be everyone's President. On the other hand, the spiritual clarion (as Rachel called it) of this historic inauguration is being delivered by a bigot.

Both these things are true. It turns out that reaching across the aisle means dealing with bigots sometimes. Especially since this particular bigot represents the (wrong) point of view of nearly half the nation. Treating them as marginal is an option, but is out of step with reality. Do we have to be happy about it? No. Should those who are disappointed and offended be silent about it? Hell no. This is an amazing opportunity for those of us who support gay equality to continue making the case to a broader audience that we traditionally talk to.

But do we really want to strip the symbolism of this gesture of all it's complexity? Do we want to start ranting and pointing fingers like right-wing retards?

This sorts of posts are both useful and exactly what Obama is all about.

By being inclusive even of Rick Warren, we are now examining and dicussing him & his views on a larger scale instead of keeping him boxed-in with only group-think that he & his followers suffer from at this time.

This is good ...

The ball is in Obama's court. He is the one courting wacko fundamentalist preachers. Granted, there are a lot of wacko fundies in this country. And Obama is their president too.

But Obama needs to show us how courting these crazies advances progressive causes. And everything Aravosis throws out there will just set the expectations higher.

The essential conflict is bigger than Obama and Aravosis. Religious fundamentalists think our country is some kind of Christian democracy and that they can impose their church laws on everybody. Those of us who believe in the constitution and civil law see it differently.

I myself find it tedious to humor religious bigots.

here's what i don't understand:

Obama, ever since he's been running for president, has been preaching outreach and diplomacy with those we disagree with.

Most of us here had his back when he said he'd be willing to talk to Iran.

So, it's ok for obama to talk to Achmeninajad, but he can't talk to a creampuff like rick warren?

I don't get it. This is exactly what obama has been running on and it's one of the biggest reasons I supported him. And now, when he actually follows through on his policy of engagement and reaching out, a lot of his base gets angry.

I dont get it.

This is an opportunity. Obama can, and will, use this to build good will with Warren and the MILLIONS of people he represents. Those are allies we need if we're going to accomplish the kind of transformational change we need.

Maybe they won't ever bend on gay rights. Maybe they will. But we won't know until we engage them. You'd think after the lack of engagement that lead to the passage of prop 8 the GLBT community would have learned its lesson.

Actually this is a plus for Rick Warren. He's not taking the usual Christo-Zionist position of demonizing Arab states that the fundies like Hagee and the rest are doing. Aravosis is playing a stupid game here, trying to turn Jewish voters against Obama because of the Rick Warren pick.

Gates orders up plans to close Gitmo on "day one".

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/18/AR2008121803539.html

And I am supposed to give a shit over who gets to say "oogedy boogedy" for two minutes, when actual policies that affect us all are happening with no one caring?

For fuck's sake! They're actually moving to close that horror show!

and you know where Aravosis got much of his post?

world net daily.

I am a dyke, by the way, and I am sooo tired of this.

moving on.....

Regardless of his religious views, when will people realize that Rick Warren is no genius. He's a very stupid guy, with convictions that are sometimes troublesome. Where have we heard that one before?

I gotta say, that regardless of how this whole "Invocation" thing is going, it's a nice change to hear Rick Warren's views discussed openly, and having the media narrative be all about how he's an anti-gay oogedy-boogedy fundie, and not the false previous CW that he was some kind of "third way" love-everyone brings-us-all-together type, a reputation he had been able to coast on up until now.

My point is, if this is Barack Obama doing someone a favor, I'd hate to see him take someone down a peg.

I'm a little struck by the hostility toward those who would criticize Obama for this move. I support Obama, but I haven't signed on to be a groupie in a national movement. What Warren has said about gays is abhorrent. Imagine if he'd said similar things about blacks or Jews? People would be in an uproar. This isn't about engagement. Let's engage Warren and his supporters in other forums. But why couldn't Obama pick someone for this occasion who has a reputation for acting as a bridge between different groups, as opposed someone so far to one side?

As for the Syria comments, well, I don't think we need to scrutinize everything Warren's ever said. But the comments about Jews in Syria, if true, fit perfectly with his attitude about gays in this country, that is: If you are an outsider, it's good enough if your country lets you practice your deviant behavior (or in the case of Jews, doomed-to-hell religious beliefs) on your own time, but don't expect equal footing with the dominant culture.

Yeah, some change to believe in. Obama has made a mistake. He's not the messiah. Supporters can criticize him for it.

Oh for cryin' out loud. I have (on other sites) been very vocal about opposing Warren to give the inaugural invocation. But hang on, now we're going to condemn him for not being enough of a right-wing hawk? Because he hasn't sufficiently demonized an opponent of Israel? Ugh. This really does smack of just trying to come up with anything, regardless of how much sense it makes.

amazing how ignorant people are.

is it ok to be a bigot?
ok to name call and foster violence against other humans?

thats only part of what warren does with his words.

would obama ask a racist to stand next to himbecause its ok to disagree without being disagreeable?

and thats the simple point many are missing.

he is welcoming the mans hate.

It's pretty unusual to find comments on this site that appear to care about how Jews are treated in the Middle East. Let's face it, Syria is no paradise for Jews. It has no peace treaty with Israel.
Syria isn't much of a force for good for Christians, or for, well, the forces of good.
Syrian troops physically occupied Lebanon for almost 30 years, and has most certainly been responsible for killing a series of Lebanese officials, including the Prime Minister. Syria sponsors Hezbollah, which is waging an active war against Lebanon's civil government, and is about to take it over. Hezbollah is preparing to resume overt hostilities against Israel. Lebanon used to be a jewel in the Middle East, but no more, thanks in large part to Syria.
Like most Arab countries, the vast majority of Jews were kicked out of Syria after 1948. No compensation and no right of return. Whether Syria is nicer than some other countries to the few remaining isn't of much consequence.
I read today that in Egypt, a writer who visited Israel in the 1990's and wrote about it in a mildly sympathetic way has been basically ostracized and blacklisted ever since. He used to have plays produced, but no more. That's the artistic community!

In terms of Obama, he is including someone with huge visibility, considered mainstream. Remember Warren hosted the Presidential candidates. It just is a standard political move. Give the guy (Obama) some room.

It's pretty unusual to find comments on this site that appear to care about how Jews are treated in the Middle East. Let's face it, Syria is no paradise for Jews. It has no peace treaty with Israel.
Syria isn't much of a force for good for Christians, or for the forces of good.
Syrian troops physically occupied Lebanon for almost 30 years, and has most certainly been responsible for killing a series of Lebanese officials, including the Prime Minister. Syria sponsors Hezbollah, which is waging an active war against Lebanon's civil government, and is about to take it over. Hezbollah is preparing to resume overt hostilities against Israel. Lebanon used to be a jewel in the Middle East, but no more, thanks in large part to Syria.
Like most Arab countries, the vast majority of Jews were kicked out of Syria after 1948. No compensation and no right of return. Whether Syria is nicer than some other countries to the few remaining isn't of much consequence.
I read today that in Egypt, a writer who visited Israel in the 1990's and wrote about it in a mildly sympathetic way has been basically ostracized and blacklisted ever since. He used to have plays produced, but no more. That's the artistic community!

In terms of Obama, he is including someone with huge visibility, considered mainstream. Remember Warren hosted the Presidential candidates. It just is a standard political move. Give the guy (Obama) some room.