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Pelosi Will Support Efforts To Get Hillary Past Wingnut Hurdle

This isn't terribly surprising, but it's still worth a quick note: Speaker Nancy Pelosi's office is confirming that she'll support Congressional efforts to get Hillary past the legal hurdle that the wingnuts have thrown down between her and the Secretary of State gig.

As I noted below, the Senate leadership is working to craft legislation that will make it possible for her to take the post despite a Constitutional clause saying that members of Congress are ineligible to take an appointed post if the salary for the post in question has increased while the member was in elected office.

The Senate's efforts, which would cut the Secretary of State's salary back to what it was when Hillary was reelected to her current term, come in response to a declaration yesterday by the winger group Judicial Watch that the Constitution blocks her from serving.

Now Pelosi's office is confirming that the House will back the Senate's efforts. "There is precedent for how to address this issue and Congress will act if necessary," Pelosi spokesperson Brendan Daly tells us. "Speaker Pelosi looks forward to working with Hillary Clinton as Secretary of State."

So it's only a matter of when, not if, Congress will dispense with this roadblock.


73 Comments

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It's not that members of Congress who have received raises are ineligible...it's that members of Congress who voted for a raise for a position cannot then take that position.

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You are right. But as I understand it she did vote for a routine raise for the SOS as part of thousands of similar raises. The traditional work around is for Congress to rescind the raise for her. Whether that is actually Constitutional is another issue. I guess Judicial Watch has nothing better to do with it's time.

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CT voter and ronbyers: No, the provision doesn't kick in only when a congressperson votes for a pay raise. The salary merely has to increase during their term of office.
And Greg, this "legal hurdle" wasn't raised by wingnuts. The problem has been recognized to exist since the constitution was written, and the "Saxbe fix" has been used for decades to get around it -- as recently as the Clinton administration.
Until it's amended or repealed, section 6 has as much validity as any other part of the constitution; stop denigrating those who insist it must be respected.
I'm sure both Obama and Hillary realized her salary would need "fixing" when he first offered her the secretary of state job.

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"No Senator or Representative shall, during the Time for which he was elected, be appointed to any civil Office under the Authority of the United States, which shall have been created, or the Emoluments whereof shall have been encreased during such time."

that's the clause ... it's not the vote, it's the timing...

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Greg - read Tribe's piece on Balkin's blog (I linked to it previously). I think it more interesting than the (unhelpful) language ("wingnuts") you are using suggests.

Reasoned discussion is always better than the alternative.

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This is true. But, as I recall, the SoS salary was raised by Bush executive order. To my (layman's) mind, that throws a different light on the situation (if my recollection is correct).

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He couldn't order it unilaterally. Congress had to pass a law authorizing him to do so.

. . . . You know, assuming we're still paying any attention to the Constitution at this point.

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Whew.

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I guess the Republicans have given up on the half-assed "drive a wedge between Clinton and Obama supporters" strategy.

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LOL! Yes, I'd say Obama returned that tennis serve quite well... "Back at ya, *****!" :)

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LOL!

both comments

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Judicial Watch has also gone after the Bush administration, so I question the characterization of them as a "winger" group. If I recall correctly, they were one of the groups that sued to get Cheney's energy task force records released.

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Oh, they're wingers alright! Right and Left!

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Wingers, definitely.

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Without a Clinton in the executive branch, they lapsed back into near-sanity. A "lucid episode," I believe they call it in psychology/psychiatry circles. Yeah, that's all over now.

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They've done some strange stuff, in my opinion, but they did get out the fact that Cheney had the map of Iraq with the oil rich areas marked on the table during his secret energy meetings pre-9/11.

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Senate leadership is working to craft legislation that will make it possible for her to take the post despite a Constitutional clause saying that members of Congress are ineligible to take an appointed post if the salary for the post in question has increased while the member was in elected office.
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The remainder of my comment seems to have been eaten. I said something like:

I'm basically fine with Hillary as SoS, and I'm not familiar with this clause. BUT...

... if this clause is in the Constitution, then mere legislation doesn't cut it. Without a Constitutional Amendment, Hillary cannot be SoS, period.

So then, WTF? What were Obama/Clinton/the gang thinking? If it really is unconstitutional, she should have never been put forth as the nominee in the first place.

This is absurd.

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Ah, OK, now I see the proposed "cut back the salary to what it had been" workaround. That's fine with me (although I wouldn't be upset if it went to the Courts).

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Well, what's absurd is if this really did keep her from being SOS.

AFAIC.


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Greg is right. It is the timing.

This issue has been addressed before and a successful work around created. It kind of reminds me of the argument that John McCain couldn't be president because he was born on a navy base in Panama.

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Okay, you know what the Democrats need to do to make this issue go away? Get the Democratic Congressman with the most Southern accent thumb his suspenders and say, "'Emoluments'? Ain't that a European word?" They'll confirm her by a landslide.

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I'm troubled by the characterization of people who seek to uphold the Constitution as "wingnuts". I'm very much in favor of Hillary's becoming SoS, but I'm even more in favor of our Constitution. Unless we are willing to say that some constitutional provisions are more worthy of enforcement than others, we should not be dismissing advocates of this position with name calling. And once we start going down the road of claiming that some constitutional provisions are just technicalities or are archaic, where do we stop? And who gets to decide? If you don't like the provision, the remedy is to amend the Constitution to remove it, not to ignore it - and certainly not to call people names when they point out that the Constitution might get in the way of what we would like to see happen. I detest "wingnuts" as much as the next liberal, but we don't do our side any favors when we begin to act like them.

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O come on - this is the emolument clause, not one of the Bill of Rights.

Some things are more important than others and some things just make sense.

The intent is to prevent a legislator from passing their own raise, in effect. Hillary didn't intend to do that.

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I thought the previous poster was making the point that it is a valid legal issue, and that it was disingenuous at best for Sargent to call Judicial Watch "wingnuts" for raising it.

The Saxbe fix gives cover to Congress to fix the problem, and I'm sure it won't be an issue at confirmation.

Also, I think Judicial Watch was the group that sued to force Cheney to release his papers. Doesn't seem so "wingnutty".

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this is the emolument clause, not one of the Bill of Rights.

Where do you get the idea that one is more important than the other? From the same place that the Bush people got the idea that the prohibition on 'cruel and unusual punishment' doesn't apply to terrorists?

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That's a bit of a stretch. We have 200+ years of Constituional Interpretation and American History to tell us which parts are worth getting our panties bunched up about.

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And the ineligibility clause has been an issue several times in 200+ years of history. So what's the deal with pretending that it's just some dusty old forgotten document dug up out of a file cabinet by partisan panty-sniffers? This is a real issue.

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And that's where I part company with a lot of people. If we are allowed to treat the Constitution like an ala carte menu, everyone else can do it too, especially people with whom I have profound differences about what's worth getting my panties in a bunch about (okay, not really wearing panties, and the visual is actually pretty horrific, but its a metaphor I use often, so I guess I'm stuck with it).

I think the Emoluments Clause is stupid. A lot of conservatives, not all of whom are insane, think excluding evidence gathered in violation of the Fourth Amendment from a criminal trial is stupid. When you say some clauses of the Constitution are more important than others, you're stepping onto the mother of all slippery slopes, and anarchy and tyranny lie waiting at its bottom.

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So, fine, if Judicial Watch to take the "Saxbe fix" to court, let them. I have no doubt of the outcome. The only question is whether the case will actually be heard at all or whether they will simply be deemed to lack standing to sue.

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This is one of those relics in the Constitution which should really be changed or dropped but probably never will be because it is just too hard to get an amendment through. Pay "increases" these days aren't usually true increases, but are adjustments for inflation intended to maintain the purchasing power of a salary. It's not like they are voting themselves a cushy high-paid job which they will move into later, which is what this was intended to prevent.

Another example of a relic - far more pernicious - is the "natural born citizen" clause, which is not only unecessary but discriminatory. Any U.S. citizen should be eligible for the presidency. The trouble is that anyone who purposes it will be seen as doing it to make some individual eligible (Schwazenegger, Granholm, etc.). Maybe they could do it only for people born after a certain date or knock it a few elections into the future. But they really, really should do it.

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Any amendment allowing naturalized citizens to become president must go into effect only after certification of the death of Henry Kissinger.

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I'd be willing to wait for the passing of Ahhnold too.

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Wait for it...

"I'll be back."

[sorry]

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This strikes me as one of those clauses that will be rendered unenforceable by the Political Question Doctrine. There are certain Constitutional questions that the courts will not handle because they belong exclusively to the political branches. The classic case is the clause in the Constitution that says "Congress shall guarantee to each state a republican form of government." In Luther v. Borden, the Supreme Court said that it was up to Congress and not the courts to decide whether a state government is "republican." I suspect they would have a similar attitude to this issue.

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O nice one - thanks for that. The things I've forgotten -you're right. This is the classic instance, one would think, of a Political Question.

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I said elsewhere that I think that could well be what happens. Problem is that the Supremes ultimately get to decide what is, and is not, a non-justiciable political question and with this Court, a Court that's moved significantly to the right since the Bush v. Gore decision, I don't know that I'd put money on it.

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I think it's utterly unhelpful to insult and question the motives of people who point out that the Constitution says what it says. This isn't some tendentious reading of a technicality -- this is an entire clause which specifically speaks to appointing sitting members of Congress to government jobs. If you want to say it should be changed, that's fine, but if you say it doesn't really count or the only people who say it counts are wingnuts, that's just dishonest.

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Oh, horseshit. The technical fix that will be done here has numerous precedents. It WILL be upheld by the courts if Judicial Watch even gets that far. Get off your high horse.

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I'm not the one calling the Constitution a "wingnut hurdle" here.

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Legislative precedents, not judicial precedent. Legislative precedent only means "Congress did it before and nobody sued over it." That doesn't make it Constitutional. It just means Congress was able to assert it was Constitutional with a more or less straight face and no one bothered to call them on it. A fact which rather robs the "precedent" of authority.

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Go have a beer.

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I would like anyone all the literalists who think this is a valid constitutional issue to first tell me whether a person exceeding the speed limit to get a severely injured person to the hospital should be convicted of violating said law.

Laws are not just words in books. They're an agreed-upon code designed to proscribe certain behaviors we deem undesirable. The "fix" in this case is not just a technical fix. It effectively prevents the behavior this clause was intended to prevent. There is ample precedent for it. All laws require interpretation, otherwise they're just so many words; and there's nothing in the emoluments clause to prevent interpretation in such a way that rescinding the pay raise to previous levels satisfies the clause's requirement.

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I would like anyone all the literalists who think this is a valid constitutional issue to first tell me whether a person exceeding the speed limit to get a severely injured person to the hospital should be convicted of violating said law.

Not before you tell me what that analogy has to do with this case.

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It has to do with being a slave to an absolute adherence to the letter of the law while ignoring its obvious intent. Adjusting the SoS salary to previous levels quite obviously addresses the intent of the clause and there is ample precedent for it.

A little history and context goes a long way:

The clause itself was subject to considerable disagreement and debate in the Philadelphia Convention, and was a reaction to a common practice in the British Parliament of members creating well-paid sinecures for themselves and their friends. Consider this from Pierce Butler:

"We have no way of judging of mankind but by experience. Look at the history of the government of Great Britain, where there is a very flimsy exclusion--Does it not ruin their government? A man takes a seat in parliament to get an office for himself or friends, or both; and this is the great source from which flows its great venality and corruption."

You can read much of the discussion here:

http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/a1_6_2s1.html

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Nevertheless, they wrote the clause the way they did. I think this is a good argument for the validity of the 'Saxbe fix,' but not really for pretending that the clause simply doesn't apply when it plainly does.

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No one has said the clause doesn't apply. That's why the "Saxbe fix" is necessary. The wingnuts are arguing that it's insufficient. There's simply no basis for that argument, historically, legally or logically. They're just doing what they do.

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Are the wingnuts saying that the fix is insufficient? I wasn't aware of that.

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A person violating the speed limit under those circumstances would plead the defense of necessity. Necessity is a defense of justification in which a person pleading the defense necessarily admits having violated the law but says extenuating circumstances render the conduct insufficiently blameworthy to merit punishment.

Justification by extenuating circumstances is analagous to Bush's defense to the charge that he authorized illegal warrentless eavesdropping of U.S. citizens, but it has nothing to do with this matter.

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The relevance to this matter is that in both cases there is a recognition that the law as written was never intended to be applied in that way. The Ineligibility clause was written to prevent legislators from creating sinecures for themselves. This is why the "Saxbe fix" is sufficient. If a salary was raised and then lowered back again, it's equivalent to never having been raised at all, and to argue otherwise is to cling to a ridiculously narrow interpretation of the law that violates ample precedent and common sense.

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One additional point: The warrantless wiretapping you brought up fails the same test because FISA was specifically passed to cover exactly that sort of activity.

Two of these things belong together,
Two of these things are kind of the same,
But one of these things just doesn't belong here...

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The ineligibility clause was also passed to cover exactly this sort of activity -- a sitting member of Congress being appointed to a civil office during a Congressional term when its emoluments have increased.

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And by rolling back the emoluments to the previous level, the net effect is that there is no increase. Unless you'd like to claim that having the salary raised and then lowered to the same level is not equivalent to its never having been raised at all. That would be a ridiculously narrow interpretation of the law, which flies in the face of precedent and common sense.

Here's the crux of the matter: Clinging to a rigidly narrow interpretation of the ineligibility clause would mean that, in the age of regular COLA raises, no member of congress would ever be eligible for a government post. Who would fill all the cabinet and other jobs in a new administration? You can't seriously be suggesting that was what the framers had in mind. It just doesn't make any sense, when a simple solution is available. Simply rescind the increase for that job.

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There is precedent to fixing it with a simple reversal of the pay increase. Which is good becasue I doubt anyone has standing to challenge it in court.

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I'd like to clarify a few things. First, in defending the constitutional argument that is being raised by Judicial Watch, I (and as far as I can tell, all the others who expressed some form of agreement with me) did not mean to disparage the feasibility of the "fix" that is being proposed. In fact, it sounds pretty good to me. So in calling an argument "horseshit" (which is such a well-reasoned argument), please distinguish between the initial constitutional argument and the "fix" that is being proposed.

Second, the fact that a court (most importantly the Supreme Court) might decline to decide an issue, based on the Political Question doctrine, does not mean that we should breeze right past it and not worry about violations. The Political Question doctrine relies on the (hopefully reasonable) belief that the judiciary isn't the only branch that is concerned with and is sworn to uphold the Constitution. It relies on the good faith of the other branches in carrying out their duties, and it should not give us a free pass to violate provisions we find inconvenient.

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How fast did Congress act upon John McCain's birth out side of the United States so that he could run for President?

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Pretty fast, as I recall, although everyone acknowledged that it wasn't necessary in view of existing law. Not sure what your point is, though.

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Several people, as well as Speaker Pelosi (in the original article), state that there is precedent for the proposed fix. Can anyone be specific about the precedent? I'm not meaning to suggest they're wrong - I'm honestly interested in knowing what the precedent is, because I don't know about it. I suppose I could research it on the Google, but since it seems like a lot of people here know about the precedent, I figured this would be the easier/lazier way to find out about it.

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Truly impressive laziness, Marc. Here, I've typed it out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxbe_fix

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Thank you so much, acanuck - both for your research and for your recognition of my world-class laziness. I bow to no one when it comes to my ability to sit back and allow others to do the heavy lifting. I will admit that even I would have done the wikipedia look up if I had realized that the phrase "Saxbe fix" was in general usage. I had thought it was made up in the course of the commenting on this article.

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Do we really think that the Obama folks didnt look at this particular clause before nominating Hillary? after all, the president is a constitutional lawyer

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I see enormous irony in supporters of a president-elect, who was at one time a constitutional lawyer, racing past honest debate about a little understood Constitutional clause and its implications. The Emoluments clause was designed to discourage corruption and self-dealing in an age when the types of misbehavior the clause addresses was a serious source of corruption in British politics. The use of clever Saxbe fix, while a feel-good option in the past and the likely course of action today, doesn't undo events, restore the legality to an appointment in the face of the emolumentary adjustments, or address the core issue; i.e., how do we hew to our Constitutional protections against government corruption?

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I'm confused about your position, Lovelynina. If a person doesn't receive the benefit of a pay raise for which she has voted, how has the purpose of this clause been subverted?

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I would also refer you to the writings of John O'Connor and Eugene Volokh who had a lively debate on this a few months back. See blog, "Volokh Conspiracy." And I like your hair.

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When I put a caramel in my mouth and chew, all my words sound like "emoluments".

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Interesting point of view, Marc. Let's stick to both the letter and spirit of the Emoluments and Ineligibility Clauses (Art. I, Sec. 6) of the USC. The fact is that the SOS' emoluments "have been encreased" during the period under examination, and there is no textual way to "undo" that, Saxbe fix nothwithstanding. The spirit of the Section is also violated, as this appointment was put forward when the candidate was likely to benefit from her vote to raise the salary. This is the fundamental corruption the clauses were designed to thwart. Now we can argue may points such as: does anyone have standing (probably not); is this a politically fraught debate (yes); are there more important points to discuss (yes); is this a right-leaning wingnut tempest in a teapot (maybe) but for those interested in constitutional matters it's still pretty cool, straightforward stuff.

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"Let's stick to both the letter and spirit of the Emoluments and Ineligibility Clauses (Art. I, Sec. 6) of the USC."

No. Concerning fundamental corruption:

First, we all know that Ms. Clinton didn't run for President so that she could achieve some ulterior goal of losing to Obama and securing that SoS job and concomitant pay raise (which raises the fun questions: did the office of President receive a pay raise while Obama was Senator? What about Clinton?).

Second, do you really think that the founders intended that hypothetically, an exiting Congress and exiting President could give a President-elect headaches by passing a pay raise for all Presidentially-appointed positions in order to prevent any sitting Congressperson from holding such a position? I sure don't.

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Excuse me, Aaron, but, with all respect, either I have a tin ear to your dry brand of irony, or you are fundamentally misreading my arguments and/or motives.

1. I'm sure Mrs. Clinton ran for president to win and, ultimately, to serve. There is a long history of the courts tolerating the Saxbe fix (all the way back to Taft and Knox) to convince myself that this was on no one's mind, and certainly not Mrs. Clinton's.

2. If I understand your point correctly, you presume to know my motives for my argument. And you are likely wrong. You also imply that no self-respecting legislature would hamstring an incoming Administration. I can't see how you can make that assertion in good faith. In any case, I'd rather argue the relative merits of the Constitutional clauses in question and their possible effect on discouraging corruption.

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My apologies, Lovelynina. I read your comment, "Let's stick to both the letter and spirit" to mean that you wanted people to *obey* (as in "stick to") the letter and spirit of the law. You meant, instead, "let's stick to [arguing the concepts of] both the letter and spirit..."? Excellent! Well, I have argued the spirit, that a "Saxbe fix" obeys the spirit of the Emoluments clause, but apparently not against what I thought were your arguments!

Further, my point, that Clinton certainly had no idea she would ever gain from being in Congress during a pay raise for SoS, is, I concede, irrelevant to whether she would be fundamentally corrupted in this Emoluments clause situation.

And just to clarify: "You also imply that no self-respecting legislature would hamstring an incoming Administration." No, I definitely believe that some legislatures would want to hamstring incoming Administrations any way they could, but that the founders probably didn't intend that this could be a Constitutionally-protected method of, um, stringing any Administration's ham.

As for the letter: I believe that, assuming that a law's repeal DOES NOT denote, in Clinton's case, that the raise never existed and therefore DOES NOT obey the clause to the letter, the letter of the clause DOES prohibit a "Saxbe fix" [caps for clarification]. But because I'm not a lawyer or judge, I don't really know how to interpret even the phrase "the letter of the law".

Phew!

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To answer your question two comments up, Aaron, the presidency is not an "appointed" position, so section 6 simply doesn't apply to it.
The point you raise that the section gives an outgoing Congress and president the power to sabotage an incoming president's nominees from the legislature (by passing a pay increase of as little as one dollar) is valid.
That clearly wasn't the intent, so it's a good legal argument for why the Saxbe fix is constitutional.
But in another thread on this (fascinating) topic, I raised the point that congressional Republicans -- if they really opposed Clinton as secretary of state -- have the numbers to block any attempt at a Saxbe fix for her.
If they did, she couldn't serve.
It would poison any talk of bipartisanship, but the Supreme Court would uphold it.
Obama's only recourse would be to engage the public in backing a quick constitutional amendment to scrap the clause. At current levels of support, I believe he could pull it off.
Now, that would be political theatre of the highest order.

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"To answer your question two comments up, Aaron, the presidency is not an 'appointed' position, so section 6 simply doesn't apply to it."

Oops! Of course. Thanks. As rock band Asia put it, "It was the heat of the moment."

Let's hope no one decides to stage your hypothetical production. At any rate, I imagine that the Republicans will prefer to wait until Clinton confirmation hearings to begin their theatrics.

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Incidentally, hopping from Congress to the Administration with the promise of a pay raise may well be something the Framers had in mind to discourage.

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I agree!

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