Coleman Camp Gets Roughed Up By State Supremes
The Minnesota Supreme Court just finished hearing arguments on Norm Coleman's lawsuit to stop the counting of ballots that are found to have been rejected due to clerical errors, and here's the deal: It didn't look great for Coleman.
Things started off on the wrong foot for Coleman's attorney Roger Magnuson right when he opened with political sloganeering, saying that the state canvassing board had "accepted an invitation to Florida in 2008." He was immediately interrupted by justices telling him that this is not Florida, and they don't need to be told about Florida. Things only went downhill from there.
Franken's lawyer William Pentelovitch got his share of rough questions, but they were generally of a different character -- that is, asking him to explore various ramifications of his arguments and to answer objections to them, rather than direct attacks on his entire logical underpinnings. Only one justice of the five hearing the case, Lorie Skjerven Gildea, was outright hostile to him.
If we're going entirely by which campaign had a harder time with the judge's questions -- which can often be true, but is far from being a perfect predictor -- Coleman would have to be considered the underdog in winning this lawsuit. But surprises can still definitely happen.















For some reason all I can think is, December in Minnesota... is "Let's go to Florida!" really such a menacing statement?
December 17, 2008 3:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
The Florida in December comment brings to mind Garrison Keillor's observation about Minnesota and North Dakota weather: it's pretty dismal about 44 weeks a year, and the other 8 weeks nature makes a serious attempt to kill you.
December 17, 2008 5:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
True, but Garrison Keiller is such a Grade-A asshole that I try not to listen to him if I can avoid it.
December 17, 2008 7:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
How is Garrison Keillor an A grade asshole???? You must have no sense of humor whatsoever.
December 17, 2008 8:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Answer: Keillor (whose name the critic can't even be bothered to spell correctly) isn't an asshole at all. "National treasure" would be more appropriate.
December 17, 2008 8:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, and some people just can't get over the fact that they can call their intellectual and physical superiors such names as "asshole" on the internet -- and not have their pointy heads caved in for it. So, they continue and we try to ignore them.
December 17, 2008 9:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, and some people just can't get over the fact that they can call their intellectual and physical superiors such names as "asshole" on the internet -- and not have their pointy heads caved in for it. So, they continue and we try to ignore them.
December 17, 2008 9:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Seriously? You claim to be someone's "intellectual superior while threatening them?
Get over yourself, little one.
December 18, 2008 10:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry, you can't comment if you don't know him and aren't from here. It's well known here in MSP ("around the way", if you will), that he's a rude, vindictive, short-tempered prima donna. No matter what sort of homey "nice" he plays on his show. Norm Coleman isn't the only local that we all know the scoop on. ;) We run into these people around town, we end up at functions with them, in the case of Keillor a lot of us have had him as an instructor at the U of MN.
December 18, 2008 9:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
yep. i've heard plenty about what a prick keillor is.
December 18, 2008 1:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think both "asshole" and "national treasure" are apropos.
I only met him once, in the 90s when I was working at the (now called) Fitzgerald Theatre where Prairie Home Companion is often performed. He was definitely not very nice to me or the people I worked with.
On the other hand, I think he is a great humorist and storyteller, and over the years he's even become not too bad of a singer.
I'm sure a lot of American icons were, in person, rather prickish. I'll bet Mark Twain on an off day was not much fun to be around.
December 18, 2008 5:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm not getting the FL thing...was it supposed to be a reference to 2000?
December 17, 2008 4:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Basically, yes. Coleman's lawyer was trying to equate counting ballots with the Florida 2000 fiasco. Nice to read that the judges were having none of it.
December 17, 2008 4:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Gotcha. Thanks.
December 17, 2008 4:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
Smooth move. Malign the Canvassing board when two of the five members are on the MN Supreme Court.
December 17, 2008 4:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
As expected, these two members recused themselves.
http://minnesotaindependent.com/20284/supreme-court-justices-magnuson-and-anderson-will-not-participate-in-recount-case
December 17, 2008 5:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
But it's not a great way to win points with their colleagues. If this is the kind of sound judgment we can expect from Coleman's crack legal team, he'll be lucky if he isn't deported.
December 17, 2008 5:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Just scratching my head. . .
I know it is the reality of this situation, but it seems odd to me that a state would have any of their Supreme Court members on any board that might be having their decisions appealed to the state Supreme Court.
December 18, 2008 12:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, o rmaybe he was trying for the legal precedent angle. You're the judges who decide who wins elections and in Florida the Republicans won so they should win in Minn too! (snark)
December 18, 2008 2:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
My prediction: Franken wins this whole thing.
December 17, 2008 4:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, Nate over at 538 still has it going to Franken, so you're in good company!
December 17, 2008 4:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
My prediction, Coleman and his tranni wife get busted for influence peddling.
December 17, 2008 4:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's really difficult to figure out exactly where Coleman is going with this. Is there any doubt that eventually these ballots are going to get counted? What, exactly, is the point of arguing that counting those ballots has to wait for a later (and certain to come) court ruling? The only logical outcome of the Equal Protection argument is that the court will eventually rule that either NONE or ALL of the improperly rejected ballots be counted, and the latter is all but assured. Counting all these absentee ballots just works in Franken's favor.
Am I missing something here? Does he have something up his sleeve that I'm not seeing?
December 17, 2008 4:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thie is the Coleman plan -
1. Stall and Sue
2. ?????
3. I win!
December 17, 2008 4:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Step 2 seems to be "Dazzle everybody with bullshit". It doesn't seem to be working.
December 17, 2008 4:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm guessing one thing is lawyers have up their sleeves is a certiorari petition to the U.S. Supreme Court if they lose here. (Which they might have a better chance of seeing granted if their client wasn't well down the way to a corruption indictment of his very own.)
December 17, 2008 4:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
dude, could you put that in English for the non-lawyers, please? Or for cats?
December 17, 2008 4:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Certiori petition is basically a motion for the Supreme Court to put the case on their calendar. Basically, NCSteve is saying he thinks Coleman will appeal the decision to the SCOTUS if he loses the recount.
The irony, of course, is that we would have an actual repeat of Florida 2000 if that happened.
December 17, 2008 4:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks!
December 17, 2008 5:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Major Difference: SCOTUS claimed in Bush V. Gore that the issue was voters rights, that by asking for recounts in only a few counties, and by the state not having a consistent standard for how to count ballots (this being left to the counties) that the state was unevenly, and therefore unfairly, administering voters rights.
Neither of those situations apply here. Every county was included in the recount, and any ballots in question are being brought to a central location where each will be subject to the same acceptance /rejection standard as the others in question.
PS: The other difference to remember is that there's a huge Democratic Senatorial majority this time. Should SCOTUS try to take this one, the Senate could quickly (and for cause) impeach and remove a few Supes, leaving some openings for the Big O to start right off with.
Godfather Noni and Uncle Thom ain't that stupid, just corrupt.
December 17, 2008 5:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
Have you been out of the country for the last 12 years. Congress, as lead(?) by Pelosi and Reid in the 110th run in panic from accountability. Neither Bushco or Congress wants to be responsible or accountable for the rule of law let alone impeaching any of the Bozo's on the Court during the 111th under Prince Obama. I wish we were a Republic instead of a voting Oligarchy, but we're not.
December 17, 2008 5:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
The last time any Bushie or other Republican was interested in accountability, Clinton was getting a blow job...
And no, but I WAS out of the country when the towers fell, and I can tell you from experience, we lost the opportunity of the millenium by having Short-Pants Bush at the helm instead of someone competent.
March 10, 2009 8:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't think this case has to do with recounted ballots as in Bush v. Gore. It has to do with the improperly rejected absentee ballots. As I understand it, Coleman's position is that since the Canvassing Board cannot require counties to include those ballots, some will and some won't, creating an Equal Protection violation. He's probably right, as far as it goes, but the remedy has to be that all counties must include them, which favors Franken, so I'm not sure what he hopes to accomplish by this.
His other argument is that some counties are accepting ballots with characteristics that other counties are rejecting, so that the standards are uneven. However, the standards are specified quite plainly in Minnesota law, so the claim of inconsistent standards is clearly wrong. If some counties are not following those standards, his remedy is to sue to force them to do so.
Mostly he seems to be throwing chaff into the air to confuse things while he tries to think of something.
December 17, 2008 5:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
The fundamental difference between a Senatorial election and Bush v. Gore is that in 2000 there was no one with the power to overrule the SCOTUS. In this case, however, the Constitution explicitly gives the Senate the final say, setting up the possibility of a humongous Constitutional taffy pull if the SCOTUS rules one way and the Senate another. Since the SCOTUS ultimately has no means of enforcing its decision, they would come out looking like chumps. It's questionable whether the Senate would find the cajones to do so, but the possibility may trouble the SCOTUS enough to turn down any such petition.
December 17, 2008 4:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
"In this case, however, the Constitution explicitly gives the Senate the final say"
Which means the Democratic Senate will seat the Republican Coleman. The Dems now in the Senate are convinced that Franken will actually have a high enough profile to get plenty of media attention when he calls bullshit on their Republican-lite policies and utter acquiesence in any half-hearted attempts to prevent progressive legislation from actually getting passed.
Given the Dems radio silence on this election, I remain convinced that they are quietly hoping for a Coleman victory, and I will remain so until Franken is sworn in as a US Senator.
December 17, 2008 6:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Shouldn't that petition be rejected on the precedent of... ironically... Bush vs. Gore?
December 17, 2008 4:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Maybe, given his legal issues, he's trying to hold on for as long as possible on the Blago model that it's easier to raise money for legal fees as a senator than as a governor or as an ex-senator.
December 17, 2008 4:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's an interesting take. Anybody on his Email list? If so how many pleas for cash are you getting?
December 17, 2008 4:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Heard SoS Ritchie on the radio a couple of days ago, he did indeed suggest that fundraising was behind much of the weight of ballot challenge. As long as they're still in the running, they have a selling point to appeal for more donations.
He didn't name either camp specifically, though he did use the words "lies" and "liars" several times when talking about the claims of improprieties that had been raised.
December 17, 2008 7:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
It is equally true with equal frequency that the harder questions go to the one who is favored. I've seen it go both ways.
That said - I'm no fan of Coleman's "argument," so maybe this court is one of those that you can tell which way they are leaning by the questions.
That is really risky, though, frankly.
December 17, 2008 4:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
There are different kinds of tough questions. There are the kind that really put the person on the spot against the skeptical objections โ Franken's guy got a lot of those โ and then there's outright ridicule.
Coleman's guy got a heap of ridicule, while Franken's lawyer only got the treatment from the one justice.
December 17, 2008 4:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
It is equally true with equal frequency that the harder questions go to the one who is favored. I've seen it go both ways.
That said - I'm no fan of Coleman's "argument," so maybe this court is one of those that you can tell which way they are leaning by the questions.
That is really risky, though, frankly.
December 17, 2008 4:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
There are different kinds of tough questions. There are the kind that really put the person on the spot against the skeptical objections โ Franken's guy got a lot of those โ and then there's outright ridicule.
Coleman's guy got a heap of ridicule, while Franken's lawyer only got the treatment from the one justice.
December 17, 2008 5:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ok, off topic, but truly an outrage!!!!! Bush says that "There can be no debate" he kept the US safe????????? WTF, 9/11 happened on his gd freaking watch? He ignored the terror threat until we were attacked and did nothing to prevent the attacks. The terror threat is greater today than it ever was before 9/11. Thousands of US soldiers have been killed and tens of thousand wounded in Iraq (also, hundreds of thousands of women and children and men have been killed by him in Iraq). Bin Laden is still free and plotting. WTF. The guy is delusional.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081217/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush
December 17, 2008 4:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
He's right. Everyone knows he's a colossal screw-up. Ergo, no debate.
December 17, 2008 4:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you for saying exactly what I thought re: Shrub. It is truly an outrage. The man has blood on his hands (as does Condi Rice) but he has the audacity to lie with statements like that?! What a despicable man.
December 17, 2008 4:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
I imagine anyone in charge of Al Qaeda has been thanking Allah daily for sending them George Bush as an adversary for the last 7 years. Their whole objective was to bankrupt the US like they think they bankrupted the Soviet Union. And so far George Bush is obliging them nicely.
December 17, 2008 4:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Absolutely correct. That's why bin laden did the video before 04, to make sure that the king remained in power to boost their recruiting and to keep american targets in the heart of the middle east. He got a twofer.
Again, I hope that these war criminals rot in hell. The king's legacy is trashing american foreign policy, bankrupting the country and murdering hundreds of thousands of innocents. What a legacy!
December 17, 2008 5:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, this is the Bush spin moment that has me seething today. Not Angry, not Slightly Irritable, but SEETHING:
* Far-right commentator Frank Gaffney insisted on MSNBC yesterday that Saddam Hussein was a "mortal threat" to the United States and while it was "regrettable" that U.S. troops had to die, they "did have to die."
December 17, 2008 5:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
I saw the same incredible lies as well. These war criminals have no shame.
I just hope that they are not successful in rewriting history and what went on. The right-wing media will try to help them, but I hope the 70% plus of the population that thinks that all this stuff is pathetic lies keeps the pressure on. I really hope that they all rot in hell. They are murderers and war criminals, they deserve to rot.
December 17, 2008 5:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Bush & Co. killed thousands more AMERICANS than Bin Laden did. And, he killed hundreds of thousands of non-Americans in the process. Heckuva job, Bushie.
December 17, 2008 6:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm watching the Canvassing Board go through each ballot thanks to the livefeed on startribune.com.
1. The proceedings are pretty professional. Everything was well organized beforehand and each question is answered with little to no doubt.
2. Because the proceedings are professional, the idea of Team Coleman using Bush v. Gore as precedent (and the partisan hackery of that charade) is hilarious.
3.The accents are magnificent, especially the clerk reading out the name of the ballot.
December 17, 2008 4:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yesterday, for some reason. Coleman's lead increased. Go figure.
December 17, 2008 4:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Because all challenged votes were not included in the running tally. As the challenges are resolved the votes are added in. So far, only Franken challenges have been considered and resolved. Thus, these are largely votes that were originally deemed to be in Coleman's column. Coleman's total can only go up at this point, but it's not going up as much as he'd like it to.
When we get to the Coleman challenges, of which many were frivolous, we'll see Franken's total increase.
December 17, 2008 4:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Another positive sign is that the methodology by which Franken was project a narrow lead assumed, as I understand it, that all challenges would be denied, so yesterday was surprisingly good by that metric.
That said, I'm still very nervous.
December 17, 2008 4:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
http://www.startribune.com/video/?ls1=1&elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUUs
what are they talking about now? They've stopped the recount to argue with lawyers.
December 17, 2008 5:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Maybe rock-paper-scissors should decide the outcome?
December 17, 2008 5:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think that competent professionals making a concerted effort to apply the law as written is prefferable, thank you. I am so glad that I do not have to watch this happen in one of the more corrupt states where I have lived like TN or MS.
December 17, 2008 6:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Can I hit Quimby with a rock? Please?
December 17, 2008 6:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Is Alan Page still on the Minnesota Supreme Court? Couldn't he just swoop down and whip Coleman's ass?
December 17, 2008 5:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes and yes.
'Tis a consummation devoutly to be wished.
December 17, 2008 6:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Had to laugh when I read the line "the only one who was openly hostile to Franken's lawyer was Justice Lorrie Skjerven Gildea." Lorrie's husband Andy Gildea used to work for the RNC; now I believe he works for the state house republican staff.
December 17, 2008 6:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Funny, I did not know that about Gildea's husband. My S.O. used to clerk for the MN Supreme Court. This may be too glib a quip, but she described Gildea as the Clarence Thomas of Minnesota. By other accounts, Gildea is smarter and harder-working than Thomas, so perhaps they're more just ideological brethren.
December 17, 2008 9:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Some legal clarifications might be helpful:
1) SCOTUS, when deciding Bush v. Gore specifically limited their decision. In essence, they said the case will not apply to anyone, ever again, and has no authoritative value, beyond George Bush and the specific issue of the Florida vote.
2) A good summary of Bush v Gore can be found at:
http://home.pacbell.net/jmax7/BushvGore2000.htm
3) Florida required the vote to be certified by December 12, 2000. This was a drop-dead date, without recourse. Gore sued for a re-count of uncounted votes. the Florida S. Ct. agreed on December 8th. The U.S. Supreme Court issued a stay, on the 9th, which halted the recount (rather than let the recount proceed, and then decide what to do with the recount numbers.)SCOTUS then dithered until Dec. 12th to issue its opinion, making it impossible to complete the recount in the time left.
4) Skipping over the fact that for a variety of legal reasons, Bush v. Gore was a truly terrible decision, it doesn't help Coleman.
5) The MN senatorial election, unlike the Florida presidential vote, has no deadline to certify votes. Coleman has no clock to run out. Consequently, only three decisions can be made by the MN: Order all votes counted, Order no votes counted, even though it is undisputed that the "fifth pile votes" should have been counted, or leave it up to different counties to decide whether or not to count the fifth pile votes. Frankly (Franken?) since there is no deadline, I cannot see a logical reason to choose anything but the first choice.
6) Once the MN Court rules, Review by SCOTUS is by certiori which means it is voluntary. SCOTUS can either take the case, or not. If it doesn't take the case, then the MN S.Ct decision is final. I do not see any upside to SCOTUS taking the case. SCOTUS took a lot of heat on Bush v. Gore. It was worth it to them to get their man in office. This go-around, they have nothing to gain. The Senate will be controlled by the Ds and the Pres. is a D. If they go out of their way to take the case, and somehow annoint Coleman, all they gain is a doofus who is under indictment and may not survive long even if elected. Coleman is no Stevens. And in the process they build a huge fire under the Ds to substantially change the makeup of SCOTUS and the lower federal courts, and to start overruling SCOTUS decisions. A hostile, active Senate can make SCOTUS largely irrelevant, and that's the last thing the Five Controlling Egos of SCOTUS want to happen.
7) So, the likeliest outcome is that the MN S. Ct. says to count all votes, the US S.Ct. chooses not to weigh in, and Franken wins the election.
8) There is one other option, I think. I believe the MN rules say that if the final vote is a "statistical tie" the matter is chosen by lot. Yup, that means a flip of the coin. Statistical tie doesn't mean exact tie. There were 2.9 million votes cast. A difference of a few votes, seems to be a statistical tie. Even 1000 votes difference out of 3,000,000 is only 3/100th of a per cent or .0003. Don't rule out the possibility if Franken wins, Coleman will sue for the coin flip. I want to believe that Franken is not that desperate, and will accept the final numbers.
9) The clock Coleman may be focusing on is the start of the next Senate. Coleman's plan may be to stall things beyond that date. If no Senator is certified by then, the governor can appoint someone.
10) The Governor of MN is Tim Pawlenty, an R. He'll have some tough choices. If he appoints Coleman, he's a hero to the Rs nationally, and may be in serious trouble in blue Minnesota. If he appoints, or Coleman wins outright, and then Coleman is forced to resign due to corruption issues, then what does Pawlenty do? He should appoint Franken to follow the voters' will, but if he's looking to 2012, he may be more interested in throwing red meat to his base, than salve to his own state.
11) Nate at 538.com and a few Dartmouth professors say Franken is favored. My vote's with them. One way or another Franken wins, either now or after Coleman resigns.
December 17, 2008 8:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's pretty close to what I have been thinking, too. The Republican contingent on the Court overreached to be sure their man ended up in the White House, justifiably took a good deal of criticism for the decision, and then the guy they forced into office turned out to be a complete disaster. I can't see that the Supreme Court will want to involve itself in political scraps again for a good long time.
December 18, 2008 3:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Being a lawyer, I can tell you, debating the merits of Bush v. Gore and its applciabilty to Coleman v. franken is a waste of time. It was an predetermined outcome justifed by a flaky rationale. The EXACT same thing will happen here, if the Soups grant cert, which they will. They do not care what the laws or issues are, they will find the law favors Coleman, and make up law to justify it. They will steal it for Coleman. When Scalia did not recuse himself in Bush v. Gore, it was all over.
December 17, 2008 9:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
And let themselves get overruled by the Senate?
No way. I don't know if the Senate would seat Franken, or demand a new election (and disenfranchise Minnesota until that happened). But SCOTUS wouldn't come off well in either event.
December 17, 2008 11:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think Mr. E has it right. The US SC probably won't step in to give the Repubs another meaningless senator especially when that senator is Norm Coleman and very well may be going to jail.
December 17, 2008 10:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
But what are we going to do without Coleman? We won't have anymore incidents like thisto snicker at.
December 18, 2008 9:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
If Coleman loses by 5 votes it's going to remind me of the $150,000 the RNC wasted on Sarah Palin's wardrobe. They should've sprung for the matching handbag.
December 18, 2008 6:56 PM | Reply | Permalink