Poll: Voters In Ohio And Missouri Entirely Unmoved By McCain's "Joe The Plumber" Stunt
It looks like yet another McCain campaign stunt may be proving a flop, at least in two key battleground states.
Check out these great numbers buried in a new Suffolk University poll of Ohio and Missouri, which tests the impact of McCain's frequent claim that Barack Obama wants to pick Joe the Plumber's pocket in order to further his shadowy socialist and redistributionist agenda:
In Ohio, 68 percent of respondents said they recognized "Joe the Plumber," but only 6 percent said that Joe's story will make them more likely to vote McCain; 4 percent were more likely to vote for Obama; and 85 percent were not affected.A similar finding was recorded in Missouri, where 80 percent had heard of the presidential plumber; 8 percent were more likely to vote McCain; 3 percent more likely to vote Obama; and 86 percent not affected by his story.
That's pretty consistent. In both states -- both Bush states -- all of one-tenth of the voters who know who Joe the Plumber is said it made them more likely to back McCain. And in both states, huge, huge majorities of around 85% say the Joe mentions make no difference.
It's worth pointing out that McCain's "Joe the Plumber" gambit isn't just some throwaway one-off gag. It's a central pillar of McCain's closing argument on the economy, which is likely to decide this election. He invokes Joe at just about every rally. And his campaign even blasted out an email to supporters today asking them to tell the campaign how they are each "Joe the Plumber," with the possibility that the best could end up in an ad!
But if this poll is any indication, Joe the Plumber's coattails won't be enough to rescue McCain -- in two of his must-win states.
Dude, look at your numbers:
68% know of Joe, 6% of those say his story makes them more likely to vote for McCain. That's 4.08% of the total number...I'll bet that's a bigger number than any of the other "stunts" he's tried.
October 20, 2008 1:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Correct, considering most of his "stunts" had negative impacts on his polling.
October 20, 2008 1:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Epic fail with a side of reeling.
October 20, 2008 1:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
And 4% isn't chump change, either.
October 20, 2008 2:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
It is chump change if those swayed by Joe are already ready to push the plunger for McCain.
Otherwise it is a flush.
October 20, 2008 2:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
No. It's chump change only in the sense that another slice of the electorate 2.7%, is moving towards Obama as a result.
But moving 4% of the electorate into your column in a particular state isn't chump change, nor should Joe the Plumber's effects be dismissed, just because we think it's stupid.
October 20, 2008 2:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Like I said, unless you know those more likely to vote for McCain because of Joe the Plumber were not for McCain to begin with the numbers could mean nothing. Realistically for Joe to matter all the more likely McCain plumber votes have to come from independent undecideds or Obama voters and all the more likely Obama plumber voters have to have been for Obama already. Then McCain could add something. You can't tell that from these numbers Mr. Pussycat. I have the real math.
October 20, 2008 2:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Karl? Is that you?
October 20, 2008 2:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, on my way to a place where I am likely to be gang raped by ACORN registrars.
October 20, 2008 2:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
Just as long as we don't have to watch you rap with David Gregory, ok?
October 20, 2008 3:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
What a catty way to play the race card.
October 20, 2008 3:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
The poll doesn't say that 4% changed their votes from "undecided" or Obama to McCain. It said net 4% found it made them more likely to vote for McCain.
I raise this because back during the primaries, I was hit by a message testing poll for the gubenetorial candidates. I informed of a series of developments or positions and then asked whether those made me "more likely" or "less likely" to vote for candidate A and/or candidate B.
As it happens, I was already pretty much dead set on voting for Candidate A (Bev Purdue, if you're interested), but the way the questions were framed, I had to answer that certain facts made me more likely to vote for her, even though I was already pretty much in the bag for her. Indeed, there were some facts they recited that I had to would make me less likely to vote for her and then the next question contained her counter to that argument which made me more likely to vote for her, again.
My point here, of course, is that for all we know, every last one of the people who thought Joe's heartbraking story of possibly having to pay $900.00 in extra taxes on his projected 280K under Obama was already in the bag for McCain.
Granted, I haven't actually scrutinized the poll's internals to see if there's anyway to tell . . .
October 20, 2008 2:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for the insight.
October 20, 2008 3:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Your welcome. Missing words and all.
October 20, 2008 3:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama leads in Ohio 51 percent to 42 percent among likely voters, according to the same poll conducted on the same day by Suffolk University's political research center in Boston.
What are you so excited about? Start getting ready for your campaign's funeral.
October 20, 2008 2:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
After Sarah's star turn on SNL, the McCainiacs have scheduled Joe the Plumber for a guest spot on Bob the Builder.
October 20, 2008 3:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
And Sarah will resurface on Barney and Friends.
She likes following in the footsteps of dinosaurs.
October 20, 2008 3:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wouldn't that be awkward? Wouldn't she have to explain that Barney didn't really exist?
October 20, 2008 5:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Playing devil's advocate here:
Polls like this underestimate the effect of campaign tricks like this. If you ask people directly if they make a difference, the common answer is no. If you ask people if sexy models on a TV commercial make them more likely to buy a particular brand of car, you'll get the same answer. The truth is, they do work, but usually on a subconscious level.
October 20, 2008 1:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
You just made me picture Joe the Plumber in a sexy model outfit. Thanks.
October 20, 2008 1:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Speak for yourself honey!
j/k
October 20, 2008 2:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
So what does it say about me when I buy car insurance from a reptile with an English accent?
October 20, 2008 2:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
It means you're a Democrat.
October 20, 2008 2:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
But if you were Republican, you'd have to be really really really REALLY religious to make up for your deviant thoughts.
October 20, 2008 2:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
If I was a Republican I would buy the same insurance, but from the cave men because I know they walked with dinosaurs and they seem, despite the hair, to be white.
October 20, 2008 2:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Absolutely not. Those cavemen are latte-drinking, museum-patronizing, tennis-playing, bookwormish, pate-eating cocktail party emoting elistist liberals. Except for the brutish appearance, they're the exact opposite of everything a red-blooded Republican is for.
October 20, 2008 3:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
So you are saying I should go for the woman named Flo's insurance instead of the cavemen? I would go to All-State but they have that Black President dude, and every time I think of Hartford I want to shoot the damn deer.
October 20, 2008 3:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'd say you have to go with AIG. Now there's a firm committed to the American Way.
State Farm is right out. Sounds downright Stalinist, if you ask me.
October 20, 2008 5:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
If you were a republican, you'd want to fondle the gecko's toes under a bathroom stall, take it out for drinks, take it back to your hotel room, and then get bagged for 120k or so when the reptile stole your stuff after you passed out when you got your blue pills confused.
October 20, 2008 3:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
And not a caveman.
October 20, 2008 2:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Joe the Plumber voting for McCain on purely political reasons is absurd. Yeah, vote for someone because someday you HOPE to make $250,000. And when that day comes, he will save approximately $900.
The point being, the guy is an idiot, the majority of Americans don't identify with idiots. Hopefully.
October 20, 2008 1:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, and never mind the fact that you just might get there quicker under the other guy's plan.
You know, the guy makes 40k and owes back taxes. He's never going to be able to buy the business. Forget the tax plans, he should be voting for Obama based on O's "hope" plan.
October 20, 2008 2:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
Don't forget too that the business that he was supposedly contemplating buying wasn't netting better than $250K/year any ways. So even that business would benefit under Obama's plan.
October 20, 2008 2:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
You've just described all those that vote Republican and against their own economic interests. That Reaganesque dream that, someday, they'll be rich enough to benefit from the Republican tax cuts. Even though the Republicans pretty thoroughly stack the deck against that ever happening.
October 20, 2008 2:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
"You've just described all those that vote Republican and against their own economic interests."
Not really, most of us Republicans realize that corporations don't pay taxes...so raising corporate taxes to give me a tax cut just adds to the prices I pay plus administartive costs on the corporate and government ends of the deal and I end up getting less than I now have to pay and a few more jobs disappear along with that...
October 20, 2008 2:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Corporations don't pay taxes? So the 30 BILLION dollars that Exxon paid last year was what... Imaginary? And if they weren't taxed, they would pass the savings onto you? Lol?
October 20, 2008 2:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Now, now, don't mess with Sarge's dream of trickle-down economics where him giving tax cuts to the wealthy will magically make their way down to him. I mean, just look at how all the government subsidies of the oil industries have kept gas prices so low...wait...never mind.
October 20, 2008 3:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
To a point, you are completely right. I guess it depends how sticky the prices are (tax oil companies and no one notices the $0.05 rise at the pump the next day. Tax Proctor and Gamble and I bet the company will take a hit before they raise mouthwash.)
But I don't know the distributions--what you are saying is that if you tax corporations, they raise prices, so now you have a de-facto tax on consumption. I guess a counter argument is then that if you tax corporations more but that leaves more people with more money, they at least have more choice what to do with their money, higher prices or no.
October 20, 2008 2:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
"I guess a counter argument is then that if you tax corporations more but that leaves more people with more money, they at least have more choice what to do with their money, higher prices or no."
Except then corporations move to a more "tax friendly" environment and we lose jobs. Remember, in the words of Joe Biden "This election comes down to a 3 letter word! J-O-B-S!"
October 20, 2008 3:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm getting a headache. And quickly. But I'll play.
It depends on the market. If energy prices stop falling and go back up again (a long term inevitability, but a short-term lie (if we go into a hard recession, oil's dropping fast)), then companies loose some of their flexibility to ship jobs overseas. I mean, even Patagonia is planning on manufacturing their overpriced jackets in America again. They claim it's because it's better for climate change, but we all know it's because shipping costs rose and they feel the PR for "Made in America" all say that it would be a good move. If you are talking about IT jobs that don't involve shipping goods, yeah, they'll keep moving overseas.
(Dammit, the more I think about it, the more my head hurts. There seems to be so many ways to look at taxes.)
October 20, 2008 3:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
This old canard is so easy to debunk:
Raising individual taxes to give corporations a tax cut just gives consumers less money to spend on the products that corporations make. Ultimately, that more than offsets the tax cut the corporations get.
October 20, 2008 3:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's why McCain isn't raising anyone's taxes....Obama's the tax raiser. Pay attention and try to keep up.
October 20, 2008 3:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well if that's true, then he'd better stop spending money. Those wars gotta stop, and fast.
How much red can be on the books before you file chapter 11? If the US was a company, a tax accountant would be telling them about now that a reorganization with protection would be a good idea. Either they stop the bloodletting or they increase revenue, or both.
October 20, 2008 3:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
So if you eliminate corporate tax, and do not raise personal tax, how do you make up the trillions of dollars lost in tax revenue? Fire the military?
October 20, 2008 3:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
We could sell America stock. Other countries could buy a share in America (and tell us what to do!).
"We're sorry, but the board has decided that they don't agree with your choice of CEO."
October 20, 2008 3:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thank God there is a shareholders meeting on Nov. 4th.
October 20, 2008 3:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
agreed.
October 20, 2008 3:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Haven't you heard? It's called supply side economics. Slashing tax rates on corporations and the wealthy leads to such economic growth that you actually generate MORE revenue and deficits just disappear. Just look at how successful this approach has been the last two times we tried it in the 1980's and the last 8 years.
Ummm...wait...never mind.
October 20, 2008 3:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Here's a great article that exposes the big lie that is supply-side economics. Maybe Sarge should do himself a favor and read it.
October 20, 2008 4:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, in 1992 Clinton raised taxes on upper income earners and look how badly that turned out. I still recall Steve Forbes advising his readers to sell their stock before the inevitable crash.
October 20, 2008 4:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
People know a stunt when they see it. They know that human beings don't make very good mascots. And they recognize that the seven-home-owning, slime-throwing, sleazebag politician pulling the stunt doesn't have a fucking clue about the economy and the realities they face in their daily lives.
October 20, 2008 1:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
The pushback on the Joe the Plumber bullshit counteracts the "everyman" gimmick the McSame campaign is waging.
Joe the Plumber is a dumbass, and is the type of stupid vote the Repubs have relied on for YEARS.
Not gonna work this time.
As said famoously in the original movie "All the Kings Men":
"the hicks are getting smart."
October 20, 2008 1:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Um, so this seems to mean that not one of their stupid campaign tricks is getting across.
October 20, 2008 1:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
My faith in the American electorate is getting restored millimeter by millimeter.
OT, but I've noticed that if I hit submit I then have enough time go over to Mother Jones or Washington Monthly and read a Kevin Drum or Steve Benen piece. Maybe the server is just trying to make us more efficient?
October 20, 2008 2:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
Or it loads in just about the same time it takes to open a fresh page and then comments. By then your post has posted.
;)
October 20, 2008 2:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
So, it's a 1% positive for McScum in OH and 5% in MO.
It's not like it's hurting him; it's just a waste of time. And time's running out.
October 20, 2008 2:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Pardon the football analogy:
It's like celebrating a 15 yard run when they are down 3 touchdowns with 6 minutes left in the 4th quarter.
Yeah, it's great, but even if you had gimmicks like that every day the rest of the campaign, you'd lose by a wide margin.
October 20, 2008 2:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sounds like you just described the Hedi Bowl game to me. It did happen just about the way you said.
October 20, 2008 3:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Unless all of those more likely to vote for him
because of Joe the Unlicensed Plumber are for Obama or undecided, even the miniscule percentage who like Joe don't do squat for Capn. John.
October 20, 2008 2:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
John the Political Stunt Man
October 20, 2008 2:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
May I correct that?
John, the Political Stunt Failure
October 20, 2008 2:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
darn tootin'
October 20, 2008 2:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
John The Stunted Politician?
October 20, 2008 2:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
John the Stunt.
October 20, 2008 3:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
On the other hand, Joe should have less trouble finding dates now . . .
October 20, 2008 2:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah Larry Craig, tapped his toes...In the next stall.
October 20, 2008 2:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Isn't Missouri the "show me" state? Well, trust but verify! And verify didn't work, did it?
No Joe.
No Plumber.
No business-buyer.
No tax hike under Obama.
Missouri's gonna go with a truth-teller!
October 20, 2008 2:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
McCain has done a lot of stupid things during the campaign, but I honestly did not think he would ride the "Joe the Plumber" horse. Good lord...
My advice to John McCain:
Think about what you are saying!!! Listen to yourself! Joe the Plumber? Seriously? You have turned your campaign into a parody - that even you make fun of! (see Joe the Plumber joke at Alfred E. Smith dinner).
Talking incessantly about "Joe the Plumber" does not make you sound like a serious candidate for president, it makes you sound like a clown.
It does not make you sound like you have the "common touch" because most people I know don't go around naming themselves by their professions. Hi, I'm John the Doctor! I'm Mary the Lawyer! I'm Jimmy the Used Car Salesman!
The Joe the Plumber gimmick is so stupid it makes me think you are doing it only to try to make your Palin pick seem like only the second stupidest thing you have done in this campaign, rather than the first.
By the way, you aren't even accomplishing that goal.
October 20, 2008 2:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Please get his moniker correct!
Joe, the tax-cheat "unlicensed" plumber!
Tax cheats for McSame!
October 20, 2008 2:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Jeez, I missed my own thread....
October 20, 2008 2:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Joe the plumber isn't working because the story they're pushing is transparently not true.
Joe the plumber is pretending to be making $250,000 in net profit.
This isn't the average Joe.
It's as counterintuitive as Mitt Romney denouncing the Northeast elite in his speech at the GOP convention. How do you denounce something that you're part of?
October 20, 2008 2:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Latest from PPP in North Carolina:
Obama 51-44.
Hagen 49-42.
Kaboom. Remember, early voting underway in NC. This represents a +4 to Obama from this pollster over last weeks number.
http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/PPP_Release_NC_1020562.pdf
October 20, 2008 2:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
OT but I was reading another blog stating Pfotenhauer is going to be off air after her "real Virginia" gaffe.
It seems foot in mouth disease runs rampant in the McCain camp.
1) Phil "Nation of Whiners" Gramm
2) Carly "Palin couldn't be a CEO" Fiorina
3) Nancy "Real Virginia" Pfotenhauer
4) John "Fundamentals are strong" McCain
Am I missing any real doozies?
October 20, 2008 2:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Did you know that the literal translation of Pfotenhauer is "Pawsmacker"?
Thanks, ami_in_D for that!
October 20, 2008 2:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sarah, "I'm glad I was exonerated of all wrongdoing" Troopergate Abuse-of Power Palin
October 20, 2008 2:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
How about Sarah "Pro-American parts of the country" Palin:
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/observer2/2008/10/why-does-palin-hate-america.php
October 20, 2008 2:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Don't leave out Dougie "Blackberry inventor" Holtz-Eakin-Whatever.
October 20, 2008 2:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ah, and Brother McCain's "commies in NoVa"...
October 20, 2008 3:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
The man didn't help himself with comments like this.
October 20, 2008 2:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, I've been disagreeing with people all day long. No need to stop now.
I don't think "Joe the Plumber" is a stupid stunt at all, and I don't think a poll conducted less than a week after Joe surfaced is necessarily in time to assess the effects.
Joe the Plumber might not be Joe, a Plumber, or even a tax payer, but only pointy headed elites on the coast know or care about this. Joe's everyman, and McCain is busy out there explaining to everyman that Obama is going to take his money and give it to people who don't pay taxes (translate: black people on welfare). It's quite the story they're cooking up. Taking your money, giving it away to people who don't deserve it, black people, no less, and turning the government into a socialist government.
And I echo the commenter above: when asked, of course people are going to say Joe has no effect. That doesn't mean he isn't going to have an effect.
If you asked people whether the fact that Tiger Woods pushes Buicks will influence them to buy a Buick, they're going to say no. And yet, Buick continues to pay Tiger Woods, year after year, to push Buicks. Is Buick stupid?
(and yeah, given the state of the American automobile industry, perhaps that wasn't the best question....but I think y'all understand my point).
October 20, 2008 2:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Taking your analogy a step further, I have noticed that most Buick drivers are older white women. Either GM has figured they are golfers
or young, good looking bi-racial men sell well to older white women.
October 20, 2008 2:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, if Buick really wanted to change that demographic, they'd have hired Tiger Woods' wife to represent them.
October 20, 2008 2:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
My analogy has problems (although I love your running with it). Specifically,
Jun 21, 2007, NY Times.
No matter. I'm still sticking to my original point.
October 20, 2008 2:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
I hate to agree with you. Wait. I'm happy to agree with you ;-) I think it's all about the hard-pressed white middle class dad being shit on by the socialist scary black man. Joe is a caricature of upper middle class white working guys and they want to use him to define a caricature of Obama as the big black bogie-man.
October 20, 2008 2:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yep.
October 20, 2008 2:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, but Joe the unlicensed Plumber is also a single Dad worried about that b---h ex-sister in law who is going to turn him in to the plumbing board because he fixed her pipes a couple of years ago while he was still married to her sister.
October 20, 2008 3:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're killing me.
Worried about the poll numbers, the relentless character attacks, the general sliminess and lack of ethics in the Republican campaign? Take two ricky's and call me in the morning....
October 20, 2008 3:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Another gimmick.
October 20, 2008 2:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wurzelbacher declined McCain's invitation to appear with him at a rally this weekend, and instead flew to New York where he appeared on the Mike Huckabee show on Fox. Looks like even Joe the Plumber doesn't want to be associated with McCain now.
October 20, 2008 2:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
Joe has some experience seeing things going down the drain.
October 20, 2008 2:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
No, it isn't that at all. Joe's got his 15-minutes and he's going to milk it. McCain's turned him into a mini-celeb and what has more impact, a rally or being on TV? I wouldn't be surprised if we get a book, possibly ghost written, and soon.
October 20, 2008 2:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
I have to disagree somewhat to making the conclusion that Joe the plumber is having no affect on voters. If this 5% or 8% of voters being affected by the story are undecideds it does have some impact. But we know especially from Republicans in polling that they artificially try to drive up their candidates numbers so I would guess and it's only a guess that Republicans are the main ones affected by this story.
October 20, 2008 2:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
So his plan here is to ride a wave of Joementum?
This is what happens when you listen to Lieberman.
October 20, 2008 2:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Joementum 2.0, Baby! Feel the Implosion!
October 20, 2008 2:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Joe the Plumber isn't really a plumber, nor was he at all vetted by the McLame Camp, apparently, since he's a tax cheat and a winger plant. He's all up in Fox now.
This shit is so flimsy that any "undecided" who is swayed by it must have been leaning McLame to start with -
October 20, 2008 2:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
No indian summer
For Magoo; what a bummer,
Could ploys come much dumber
Than "My pal, Joe the Plumber"?
October 20, 2008 2:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Could there be a haiku in Joe The Plumber?
October 20, 2008 2:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Joe
Plumbing
Polling
Push
Plunger
October 20, 2008 2:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
For a more traditional structure:
Joe Plumbing Polling
Push Plunger, snaking slime kiss
the old man shakes fist.
October 20, 2008 3:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
This little riff right here is just another proof of how our campaign can take frustration and turn it into poetic strength. Kudos!
October 20, 2008 3:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
KQuark is right, I think -- some folks who would have chosen McCain anyway figured it would be advantageous to say Joe the Plumber makes a difference. If we had the actual data, we could cross-tabulate that question by party affiliation and see if Republicans are driving the "yes" answer up.
October 20, 2008 2:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
The McCain camp goes through themes faster than Cindy McCain goes through outfits in a Valentino dressing room.
Now they're making cocktails, "Let's see, a little Ayers to keep it old school, some ACORN for nuttiness and a double shot of fund raising fear to top it off."
October 20, 2008 2:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'd like to see a counter-movement of actual plumbers named Joe coming out for Obama. I think it would make a great ad -- plumber after plumber, each endorsing Obama. I don't know if the union should do it, or Obama's camp, but someone ought to. Let's put this sham Joe the Plumber thing to rest once and for all!
October 20, 2008 2:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes. Let's put the sham to rest, rather than assuming that people aren't going to be influenced by it.
October 20, 2008 2:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
I believe in fact that the Plumber's Union did come out shortly afterward and remind people that they had endorsed Obama.
October 20, 2008 2:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
McShame and Sam -- a.k.a., "Joe the Unlicensed, Tax-evading Plumber" -- are now joined at the hip. I'll need lots of popcorn to enjoy watching them stumble and bumble, herky-jerky-like, across the finish line long after BO's enjoying champagne in the clubhouse.
October 20, 2008 2:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Why hasn't the press made a bigger deal out of the fact that "Joe" was a registered Republican who misrepresented himself when he approached Obama in the first place?
He said he was an Independent, when in fact he's a registered Republican. He said he's a plumber, yet he doesn't have a plumber's license. He said he was considering purchasing the business he works for, yet he later admits that he has no ability or realistic chance to actually do that.
He tried to stump Obama with a manufactured reality that was purely hypothetical. How is he surprised that he is now under so much scrutiny?
I don't want to sound negative, but to me, he came off as phony as much of the McCain/Palin campaign.
October 20, 2008 2:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
jesus h. christ, joe biden needs to keep a lid on it.
ughh...why the fuck would he say that obama would be "TESTED" during an "INTERNATIONAL CRISIS" during the "FIRST SIX MONTHS" of his presidency??
DUMB DUMB DUMB
October 20, 2008 2:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
At least Joe is... Predictable?
October 20, 2008 2:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't think the fact that Joe the Plumber looks like a typical skinhead is playing too well with the rest of the nation.
But I can see how a tax-dodging idiot appeals to McCain. After all, he picked one as his running mate.
PEACE
October 20, 2008 2:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Bada-bing!
October 20, 2008 2:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
If you think Joe Biden is DUMB DUMB DUMB about foreign affairs, may I ask what your qualifications are?
And some context, please, for that statement.
October 20, 2008 2:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think this is referring to two fundraisign speeches Biden gave today in Washington state. The quotes are from an ABC news article that covered those speeches. Out of context, it sounds bad, but it really wasn't that bad. Biden is just pointing out the obvious: there are critical decisions that will need to be made straight away for the next president.
October 20, 2008 2:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks - that's why I wanted context.
I know Biden is given to gaffes, but Jesus! The man's foreign relations credentials are impeccable. If he said that there had to be some context -
October 20, 2008 3:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
I want Obama to win as much as anyone (and just voted for him yesterday, in Washington state), but you're really showing your bias here ... Joe the Plumber *is* a stunt, but based on your poll results, the stunt *could* be moving enough votes in those particular states to flip them from barely blue to barely red ... So, try to rein in the pro-Obama spinning and instead interpret the actual possible impacts of the numbers (while paying attention to the margin of error, etc).
October 20, 2008 2:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
You can add and subtract, right?
Then what are you actually complaining about?
October 20, 2008 2:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm just saying that a much more accurate headline would be "Joe the plumber stunt could swing Ohio, Missouri" than the "Voters entirely unmoved" headline. Not everyone has the time to read the details in every piece, so the headline should actually convey the facts, not the wished-for interpretation.
And honest, I'm not trying to pick a fight.
October 20, 2008 2:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree. While it's true that we don't know if those who were affected by the ad were leaning McCain or whether they were, in fact, true independents, the fact remains that the ad moved 4% in one direction.
Sure, it might be meaningless, but in a tight battleground race, I don't know that I'd call it completely ineffective, either.
October 20, 2008 2:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
But does Joe have sticking power? Are people going to be thinking about Joe when they cast their vote? Yeah, he may be the 'tipping point' for some undecideds, but I can't imagine that people will vote one way because of Joe.
October 20, 2008 3:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
You know what? Neither can I.
But I couldn't imagine that the Swift Boaters would have an effect. I mean a group attacking a decorated veteran? Americans love veterans, right?
I didn't think that Willie Horton would have an effect, either. I mean, of course Dukakis didn't personally release Horton. I also rather naively thought that the "If your wife was raped and killed, would you reconsider your opposition to the death penalty?" question would be viewed by voters as a sleazy transparent "gotcha" question.
I thought people would be able to see that W. was an inexperienced politician, and a sucky businessman. I mean, not a single business that he ran was successful. Wouldn't that be a factor for the American public?
I've decided that as soon as I think something is not going to have any effect, it's a safe bet that that something is going to have a much bigger effect than any sane rational analysis would suggest.
I hate Mondays sometimes. Is it obvious?
October 20, 2008 3:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
At least you aren't discussing taxes with SFC. I freaking need Tylenol, and fast.
October 20, 2008 3:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
CT the sky will not fall. Joe is about 30 points behind Colin Powell. Associating with Ayers doesn't touch associating with Bush. And ACORN is nowhere near as scary as Palin.
October 20, 2008 3:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Old man yelling at clouds. Pretty much sums up his entire campaign.
http://pufferfish.typepad.com/
October 20, 2008 2:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Word, Danny. If one looks at his campaign from a slight distance, and puts aside how one feels about Obama for a minute, it's pretty damn sad, really.
I thought he'd do better than this campaigning. It's just been pitiful.
October 20, 2008 2:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Agree, Tena, but I still get that feeling of satisfaction like watching a schoolyard bully getting beaten up by a smaller but more agile and skilled kid.
Perhaps after January 20th I'll be able to feel pity for McCain. Until then, the hatred he and Palin are spewing from a national stage disgusts me.
Pitiable? No. Pitiful dottering old man who sold his soul and lost everything? Yes.
PEACE
October 20, 2008 2:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
I hesitated to post that because I was afraid it would be misread.
I don't feel sorry for him - don't get me wrong. I'm just sayin - this has been the worst run campaign I've ever seen. And McLame has just spent the entire campaign being mad. Mad as shit.
Especially since the Fuck Up of the Century - Sarah Palin.
;)
but it's so pitiful it's sad in some ways. The guy supposedly is experienced at this and it's really been the worst campaign ever.
October 20, 2008 3:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Experienced at what? Getting himself into jams, it would seem.
October 20, 2008 3:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
I guess so - but he's run for the senate how many times in 26 years?
Of course, this is his second losing bid for the presidency -
October 20, 2008 3:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
McScum is busy not only defending the Bush states but also Joe The Plumber, who is pretty badly debunked.
October 20, 2008 2:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
He's also defending as "true patriots" the GOP fascists who've been spicing up his rallies with vitriol and racism. Everytime he spits out the word "patriotism," Oscar Wilde's "virtue of the vicious" clangs in my brain.
October 20, 2008 2:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
You can tell the "Joe the plumber" theme didn't work it out when Halperin is already testing the next one:
"Republicans begin major offensive warning of full Democratic control of Washington...
Developing..."
How long this theme will last?
My bet is three days. What's yours?
October 20, 2008 2:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
The rest of the way.
The reason is because they can lump the congress in with Obama with one message. Thus making it a coherent message for the shared RNC + McCain commercials.
October 20, 2008 2:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
At least we now know why McCain kept whining about Rep. Lewis' remarks and kept saying that Barack Obama didn't repudiate the remarks (which he did)- It's going to be his reason for playing the Rev. Wright Card -
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/20/rick-davis-were-rethinkin_n_136173.html
Two weeks out - yeah that's about the timing most expected. I love how the McCain Camp makes up an reason so they can play the "They made us do it" excuse. Like they didn't plan on using Wright a week or so before Nov. 4th.
This whole "Barack Obama isn't who you think he is" campaign has been all about building up to the Rev. Wright crescendo.
Rep. Lewis' remarks were barely a blip on the MSM radar, and would have been even less if McCain didn't keep bringing it up himself. First during the final debate, and even this past Sunday on Fox.
October 20, 2008 2:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
I actually think they would have had to start bringing it up last week in order for it to have its maximum effect.
October 20, 2008 2:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think the timing is about right. Given the short attention spans, if they used it too soon, it would be old news come Nov 4th. They'll need it to peak right on voting day for best results.
This is why it was genius for Obama to get the prime time half hour programming on Nov. 29th - so worst case scenario he can push back on McCain's last ditch smears.
You have to assume Obama has a push-back campaign ready the moment McCain drops the first Wright Ad, or starts pushing it on the stump. Though maybe it will just be a terse letter to the McCain Camp.
October 20, 2008 3:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
I see your Reverend Wright, and raise you a Pastor Hagee.
October 20, 2008 3:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
McCain didn't sit in Hagee's church for 20 years. If Obama wanted to use Hagee, he'd point out that McCain was just using Hagee and Parsley for political gain, that he denounced them in 2000 however when he felt he needed them he reached out to them, only to then quickly drop them when it again was more politically prudent to do so.
October 20, 2008 3:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
We know it's coming. The real question is "how effective will it be in drawing away marginal Obama supporters and independents?" I hate to say this, but I fear some of us are in for a very rude and disconcerting awakening.
October 20, 2008 3:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yep, get ready for the Screamin Jay Hawkins of black ministers ad.
October 20, 2008 3:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
What concerns me more than the He Put A Spell On YOU ad is the affirmative reaction it will cause in some sectors of the electorate. Angry people are easily frightened and frigtened people vote their fears.
October 20, 2008 3:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
This time with the "close italics" tag in effect...
What concerns me more than the He Put A Spell On YOU ad is the affirmative reaction it will cause in some sectors of the electorate. Angry people are easily frightened and frigtened people vote their fears.
October 20, 2008 3:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
The truly absurd aspect of McCain's Joe the Plumber gambit is that Joe is wrong on the facts. Joe's taxes will not go up under an Obama administration, they would go down. And yet McCain keeps citing him as "proof" that Obama intends to raise taxes on the middle class. Senator, your expert witness got it wrong. What he said about Obama's tax plan is false. Your reliance on his evidence is absurd.
"Your Honor, I know my witness is full of s**t, but I think that his false testimony clearly establishes that my opponent is...is..."
Is what, Senator? Misleadingly not lying about his tax plan? Intentionally not planning to raise taxes in an effort to deceive people who think he'll raise their taxes? What's the charge, here?
October 20, 2008 2:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
I have zero failth in OH. Nil. Zilch.
From Obama hanging effigy to Joe the Plumber, majority seem to celebrate ignorance- Palin style. OH is only in play for McCain to spend his resources. McCain will win OH. However, with recent tidal wave MO seems more optimistic.
At this point, BO can afford to loose OH and still win handily.
October 20, 2008 2:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree. I think it's going to be close in OH and the thugs are going to try steal it again, of course. And I think it's still 50/50 that we get OH. But, I think FL looks much much better and that's why Barack is down there now to crush McSame there and end this thing once and for all.
October 20, 2008 3:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hey, I matter.... I do! I do, dammit! Why Rush was just bloviating about me the other day....
October 20, 2008 2:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
My ideal October surprise comes in two parts:
1. Making the AIP affiliations stick to Palin
2. The publication of the rest of the TrooperGate report
Top that off with more endorsements for Obama that site McCain's poor judgment in selecting Palin, McCain's erratic behavior and his negative campaign and I'm all set for election night.
October 20, 2008 2:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
A diehard wealthy republican I know who a couple weeks ago was saying "I just cant vote for Obama--he's going to raise my taxes"...decided this weekend he was going to vote for O. His reasons; Joe, Sarah and Powell.
October 20, 2008 2:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Joe The Senator or Joe the Plumber?
October 20, 2008 3:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Latest Joe the Plumber Video!
Maybe this will do the trick.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9w7jGabEWU
October 20, 2008 3:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
You know, I love y'all, but y'all drive me nuts sometimes. Over at Huffpo, they have this head on this story: Joe the Plumber Tanks
It seems to be the consensus opinion and yet are determined to bend over the other way on this.
:)
October 20, 2008 3:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
and yet some of you are determined to bend over the other way on this.
October 20, 2008 3:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Because maybe some of us (ok, ME) think that it's maybe too soon to make a decision about whether Joe the Plumber is having any effect. It's been less than a week, for crying out loud.
October 20, 2008 3:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ok. But who will remember him next week? How many of these things has McLame come up with, week by week if not day by day?
Anyway - I fully defer to your judgment here - it's not that big a deal.
And hey hey hey! My ballot came! I had it sent to my realtor's office cause I knew that I stood a much better chance of getting it and I did! Hooray - first day of early voting in Texas and I have my ballot and even have time to go vote tomorrow instead of now since I'm in the middle of the laundry and cleaning the house and I'm filthy myself.
O god I'm so relieved!!!!!
October 20, 2008 4:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
congrats! maybe I ought to send that $15 to Obama, then.
October 20, 2008 5:39 PM | Reply | Permalink