Displays of patriotism are not patriotism.

Whoa.

That's just about the most convoluted justification for hate speech I've ever seen.

Nice work.

I usually refrain from responding to you SFC. I never agree with you, but I value your opinion. That said, the faux-patriotism of your flag-waving reference defeats all your aims to be conciliatory. I've read your comments and respected your opinion... even if I don't agree with it. But seriously, your equivocating this garbage deserves no respect. Republicans like Bachman, Hayes, Palin and McCain are doing more damage to this country than the necons have and probably ever will. I certainly hope the divisive campaign, and more importantly, the divisive ideology you whole-heartedly support with your precious vote, will go down in a blazing defeat on Nov. 4th. Yeah, and let's see how patriotic your "comrades" are when you have to say President Barack Hussein Obama... wave your flags in pride then. Jerks.

P.S. I'm not calling you a jerk... I don't envy you trying to find a silver lining in the clogged toilet of the Palin-McCain republican party. Your comment doesn't deserve respect, but you do... 'cause, in all sincerity, you're a real American.

I'm really not sure what your point is, besides sensing an opportunity to break out the "bitter" line, but I'll say 2 things in response.

1. SOME liberals, of course, look down on rural America. Just as some Conservatives look down on big cities. But the current stream of hate and divisiveness is coming from conservatives (not liberals). It’s the McCain campaign deriding urban areas as not "real" or "patriotic."

2. You're misinterpreting Obama's bitter comments. He didn't say people in small towns were bitter because liberals look down on them, he said they were bitter because their problems are ignored by Washington:

You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton Administration, and the Bush Administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. And it's not surprising then they get bitter...

See, this is why liberals get so fed up with you right now. My husband and I are the only members in our families to have served in the military (jumping out of perfectly good airplanes, which does tend to call our judgement into question), fly the flag daily and not just on holidays, and vote for Democrats. Both of our siblings have been on and off welfare for most of their adult lives while we both put ourselves through college--on our own--and have worked full time before, during and after graduation. But we aren't "real" Americans like all of the Republican voters in our families. You can take your "real" Americans like Gov. Palin and shove them, sarge!

Self-reliant? There's a net outflow of taxes from my liberal northeastern city to the rest of my state and my state to the rest of the country. I'm thinking that wouldn't be the case if the self-reliant were so.

Self-reliant? There's a net outflow, by a large margin, of taxes from my liberal city to the rural parts of my state and from my state to the country. I don't think that would be the case if you were self-reliant.

Lets be real, people in small towns, like people in cities, or people of a particular ethnic group or race, or religion..DO CLING to those things that are familiar and reassuring to them in hard times (whether its the current economic situation, family tragedy etc.) That is what Obama meant and its true. Republicans and the media have latched on to the WORDS that were used ("cling") and completely lost the meaning. It is why when 9/11 occurred we all clung to each other as Americans and to our nationality which had the effect of both comforting us and creating this "us against the world" bellicosity that resulted in a blind march to war and anti-Muslim behavior. Its human nature. I say all this because I am tired of people bringing back that comment as a justification for voting against Obama, or for stupid statements like this one.

By "Patriotic-Church-going-self-reliant," you mean Amis people? I think Conservatives hate them; we like them for heterogeneity's sake. If you mean Repugs in general, we don't look down upon them. We feel responsible to educate them and make them more tolerant and more efficient citizens. If you keep hanging out here and listening to our noble ideas, you could become a better person at the end.

My neighbor, a dyed-in-the-wool Republican, flies his American flag 365 days a year. But he doesn't handle it as I was taught to do in the Boy Scouts: he never takes it down at night, never removes it for a storm. As a result, the flag is tattered, faded and pretty sad looking. I, by contrast, fly my flag a few times a year (Fourth of July, Memorial Day, etc.) Is he a bigger, better American and "patriot" than me, SFC?

SFC,

You write:
"liberals do look down on the members of the electorate who live the "Patriotic-Church going-Self-reliant" life style. "

I have read this claim over and over, and I take issue with it. I will try to be as honest as I can in addressing my perspective as a "liberal". I am of course speaking for myself and no other self-identifying liberal.

When I see someone waving the flag, I don't look down on them. Rather, it makes me wonder a little bit what they're feeling because I don't get the same warm fuzzy that they apparently do. My son asked me the other day what I thought characterized "Americans", and I told him that IMO Americans are lucky. We're lucky to live in a country that has the freedoms we have, that has the economic infrastructure we have, that has the wealth of food and natural resources we have. Frankly, most of us don't do a hell of a lot to deserve this luck. Most of "us" (I am not, of course, speaking about immigrants) were lucky enough to actually have been born here, so it isn't as if by our own initiative we made a great effort to get here. I don't honestly feel that we are "better" than anyone else, or more blessed, or more deserving. So, I don't "look down" on flag wavers, I actually don't understand them.

Church going? That's a choice, I have nothing against church going folks, I have been one myself at various times in my life. Self reliant? See the previous paragraph -- it's easy to be self reliant when the society you live in is structured in way that makes it so easy to get whatever you need.

There is of course the issue of military service; an argument is often made by conservatives that liberals don't appreciate the sacrifices of the military. I was raised in a pacifist household -- my ancestors were Mennonites, and although I myself am not religious, I was raised by people active in various peace movements. If we were invaded by an enemy, I honestly don't know if I could take up arms -- I hope I never have to find out. I do believe that all the wars that have been fought in my lifetime (since 1957) by the US were wars of choice rather than wars of necessity, so I don't buy that the young men and women in uniform are "fighting and dying for my right to be free". These wars were engaged in by the US to advance its perceived national interest, which is a different reason entirely. I recognize that soldiers have many different reasons for wanting to serve in the armed forces, however, and so I don't "look down" on them, rather, as above, I don't really understand them; and since I don't know what personally motivates each of them, I have to abstain from judgment of their actions. If they end up killing someone in an unjust war, they have to answer to their own Maker, not to me.

Maybe it's just that the grass is always greener, but I feel far more "looked down upon" by conservatives that I feel like I am looking down on them myself.

Cheers.

-- Ned

After Obama's acceptance speech, I bought a flag and pole. First time in my life.

Am I patriotic? I assume so. It's difficult to declare my patriotism when those who push us into needless wars use "patriotism" as a tool. They devalued the word, and the flag.

SFC Wallace, Do you actually not understand that the "cling" comment by Obama was a sympathetic one to those people? It was only an after the fact misrepresentation of those remarks that turned them into something bad. The very idea that that was a nasty or condescending statement is a lie. Do you not get that? I do. Take your friggin' lies somewhere else.

Sure like to see where you get that "85%" number or are you just pulling it out of thin air?

My nephew-in-law just joined the Marines, my first cousin's done 3 tours in Iraq and Kuwait, my dad and uncles were all vets including a career navy officer. Hell, my grandfather was one of the most decorated vets of WWI. And we're Democrats.

People like SFCWallace are all over the place though. I'll give him this though, he'd probably say it to our face. Can't tell you in recent years how frequent it's gotten for the right wing to just insult their neighbors and their whole families to their faces in despite of their service. Because once you disagree with them on politics, sacrifice and honor mean nothing. Only people who vote their way have flags. I'll think of you and your comments on Nov 11, SFC Wallace, when we're visiting my dad's grave. The one with the flag on it.

Go crap on someone else's lawn.

McCain is the leader of the Republican Party. The one that is running the sleaziest, most dishonest campaign in a generation. So yeah, he's at the top of the list.

figuratively speaking!