Obama To McCain: "You Like To Pretend Like The War Began In 2007"
The debate shifts over to foreign policy, and Obama takes his best shot at McCain over Iraq, laying out the whole case:
John you like to pretend like the war began in 2007. You talk about the surge -- the war started in 2003. And at the time when the war started, you said it was gonna be easy, you said we knew where the weapons of mass destruction were, you were wrong. You said that we were gonna be treated as liberators. You were wrong. You said there was no history of violence between Shia and Sunni. And you were wrong.And so the question is the judgment of whether or not -- if the question is, who is equipped as the next president to make good decisions about how we use our military , how we make sure that we are prepared and ready for the next conflict, then I think we can take a look at our judgment.
The Iraq debate can be described as follows: You say invasion, I say surge.
Obama's attack was good stuff, but to our eyes, Obama seemed a bit on the defensive in the skirmish that followed. And truth be told, McCain is crisper and less muddled and more confident than we expected him to be, at least in certain areas. Overall, however, right now we think it's shaping up as a draw, with neither breaking out.
McCain: Wrong on Iraq...but right on Lebanon!
September 26, 2008 9:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
The new server sucks, guys!!!!
September 26, 2008 9:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
With you, 100%.
Like this comment is ever going to post...
-- ARG
September 26, 2008 11:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Holy shit! Can you imagine Palin debating these topics??! LOL!
September 26, 2008 9:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
DO NOT USE DEAD TROOPS AS A POLITICAL PROP YOU STUPID FUCKER!!!
September 26, 2008 10:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ugh, anecdotes.
September 26, 2008 10:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree, McCain told too many old man stories. When he starts talking about Regan and before that is toooo farrr away and looonngg ago. I did not have too much of an age issue with McCain before this debate but now I do.
September 27, 2008 12:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
Haven't we heard McCain's bracelet story before?
He's like the crazy old uncle who keeps telling the same story over and over again but everyone's too polite to tell them he's told them already.
September 26, 2008 10:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think Obama pivoted off that bracelet bullshit beautifully.
September 26, 2008 10:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oooo. Bad move Obama on the braclet thing. Just dumb. Let McLame do the manipulating.
September 26, 2008 10:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
I liked that, "Look, I have a bracelet, too..." and then right on to the substance of the issue.
September 26, 2008 11:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
All this talk about where McSame's been. Just like Palin.
John's jaws really do twitch like the Scott Bateman animations on Salon.com.
"I've got a bracelet, too" -- not bad.
September 26, 2008 10:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama might as well suspend his campaign
September 26, 2008 10:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Greg - I admit that it seems like it's a draw, but if you watch CNN, they have the audience reaction gauge. Obama's been getting soaring marks on a lot of subjects from Independents, and McCain has struggled with them.
September 26, 2008 10:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
PBS' conclusion was that it's a draw, and given that this is supposed to be McCain's strong suit, that translates to an overall win for Obama.
September 26, 2008 11:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
I turned off the volume. I couldn't stand anymore of McCadaver's bloviating.
September 26, 2008 10:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
The bracelet mention by Obama was good, basically saying "I can namedrop the mothers of one of our fallen soldiers too - whats your point?"
September 26, 2008 10:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Are you talking about the whole debate or the war part? Cause McLame was anything but "crisp" trying to stumble around the economy.
And I think Obama is killing him on specifics and keeping things on track. McLame is all over the place.
Tcha! I do not get y'all sometimes.
September 26, 2008 10:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wow, this is McCain's strongest topic, and yet he can't land any blows. It's been a stalemate. Obama looks equally credible on FP and very presidential.
I can't wait for the economic/domestic debate, where McCain will spend 90 minutes defending Bush's policies.
September 26, 2008 10:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama's direct diplomacy remark got very good marks.
September 26, 2008 10:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
I love this live blogging of following the remarks - thanks!
September 26, 2008 10:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Of course! =D
September 26, 2008 10:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
following the marks the audience is giving them I mean -
September 26, 2008 10:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, I understood.
September 26, 2008 10:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
I can't wait for SFCWallace to bring up Obama's "ums" tomorrow.
September 26, 2008 10:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
I can't wait for SFCWallace to go "poof" and disappear.
goddamn - he keeps saying Obama doesn't understand and then gets all creepy - it's dangerous!
September 26, 2008 10:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Is Wallace in bed already?
And good point before on the bracelet issue, Hyper. I posted it in another thread and will repost it here ... If - God forbid - McCain is elected, I will send him a bracelet for each soldier that dies after his continued insistence on waging the Iraq war.
Fucking asshat. Warmongering old fuck.
September 26, 2008 10:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
McCain couldn't pronounce Ahmadinejad?
September 26, 2008 10:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Too funny
September 26, 2008 10:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
HA he called out the Spain comment.
September 26, 2008 10:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
That was very, very good. I wish that it hadn't been at the end of his speech so I could see the audience reaction.
September 26, 2008 10:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah and McCain's attempted pivot fell flat. Ha!
September 26, 2008 11:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama is very strong on the diplomacy issue.
Henry Kissinger = landed a blow
September 26, 2008 10:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama just blew McLame off the stage and into the next county on the Iraq thing.
September 26, 2008 10:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama is very strong on the diplomacy issue.
Henry Kissinger = landed a blow
September 26, 2008 10:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
We dont know the status of your health is either McCain.
September 26, 2008 10:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
O my - I said the same thing out loud to the TV - word for word!
LOL!
September 26, 2008 10:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
SPAIN! Amazing.
And that seal joke fell flat.
September 26, 2008 10:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
McLame is getting weirder and weirder.
September 26, 2008 10:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
His little giggle and smirk is creeping me out. I know I'm biased, but he is coming off as incredibly condescending
September 26, 2008 10:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
PBS commentators said the same thing. His "Obama doesn't understand..." isn't expected to play well, except to the converted.
September 26, 2008 11:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
Boy I wish the topics of last half hour had been the first
September 26, 2008 10:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
McCain got really bad marks from Independents and Democrats when he went on the attack against Obama concerning Kissenger. Ouch.
September 26, 2008 10:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
McCain looks flustered and pissed off. Ha!
September 26, 2008 10:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think Obama is going to end up wrong on Kissinger's stance.
September 26, 2008 10:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
If by wrong you mean Kissenger is going to lie about what he originally said, then I agree.
September 26, 2008 10:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
NOPE, already found it he did say with out pre conditions.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0809/20/se.01.html
September 26, 2008 10:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
"
But I do not believe that we can make conditions for the opening of negotiations."
September 26, 2008 10:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
He's gonna blow!
September 26, 2008 10:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
His jokes are unbelievably lame.
Jesus.
September 26, 2008 10:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
SPAIN! Amazing.
And that seal joke fell flat.
September 26, 2008 10:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am sooo glad McLame said that thing about kissenger because it was such a freaking lie about what Obama HAD JUST SAID. Even the dumbest rube will be able to see that one.
September 26, 2008 10:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
I have to say, kudos to Jim Lehrer. This is an incredibly substantive debate. This is the polar opposite of the Gibson/Steph idiocy way back.
September 26, 2008 10:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
His jokes are unbelievably lame.
Jesus.
He's been everywhere, knows everbody - and just how naive does Obama sound, Old Man? Keep that up.
September 26, 2008 10:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
SPAIN! Amazing.
And that seal joke fell flat.
September 26, 2008 10:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
But what Senator Obama doesn't understand . . .
in that snotty, condescending tone of voice is so obnoxious and disrespectful. I know he is trying to point out Obama's inexperience--but there are more dignified ways to do it!
September 26, 2008 10:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
I like to think Obama's doing well, but I'd say a good amount of the difference in reactions to each candidate is due to how annoyed McCain sounds tonight. He just doesn't sound like he wants to be here.
September 26, 2008 10:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Dammit _ - I guess no credibility but I think Obama is doing a fucking great job!
September 26, 2008 10:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
SPAIN! Amazing.
And that seal joke fell flat.
September 26, 2008 10:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wow. Talk about a stark choice.
Obama on Russia: National interests first, but we can't return to a Cold War posture.
McCain on Russia: I look at them, and I see three letters. K. G. B.
How's that for diplomacy?
September 26, 2008 10:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
"But I do not believe that we can make conditions for the opening of negotiations. We ought, however, to be very clear about the content of negotiations and work it out with other countries and with our own government."
September 26, 2008 10:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
LICK YOUR LIPS, BARACK!
Ack!
September 26, 2008 10:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama got HUGELY good marks from Dems, Indies and Repubs when he was talking about energy.
And every time McCain distorts Obama's positions he loses with Independents and largely with Democrats.
September 26, 2008 10:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Senator Obama is doing well. McWar keeps saying that "Senator Obama does not understand ".
You can be sure it is going to be the media spin...
September 26, 2008 10:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Whats ironic is for the first half of the debate when they topic was the financial crisis, i thought McCain was more to the point than BO. Since the topic has changed to foreign policy, BO is doing much better. I guess it takes him a while to get going.
September 26, 2008 10:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's so obvious that there's a fossil on that stage, and it ain't Obama.
September 26, 2008 10:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
I know, I keep saying - O really, Old Man? I've heard that shit in the 60s - that goddamn We Must Justify Our Blood and Treasure By Getting More of it Spilled and Lost bullshit. That is the Vietnam Justification. And it is egregiously stupid.
September 26, 2008 10:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Whoa...! McCain is getting the biggest negatives of the night from Dems and Independents by going back to Iraq.
September 26, 2008 10:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Why did Obama just give McCain credit on the torture issues?!?!?! What the fuck?!?!
September 26, 2008 10:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
It made Obama look good and bipartisan from what I saw, rather than horribly negative. Every time McCain has gone negative and attacked Obama for stuff, like Kissinger, the Independents have responded very negatively.
September 26, 2008 10:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Good one locked him in on torture.
September 26, 2008 10:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Notice how many times Sen. McCain says "I don't think Senator Obama understands..."?
September 26, 2008 10:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes,
condescending little fucker.
September 26, 2008 10:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Arrrrgh! Why did Obama just give McLame a pass on torture? For fuck's sake, his capitulation on torture one of the things that makes McLame so slimey.
September 26, 2008 10:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Trust me, that was a great move. No matter the record, having Obama himself go at McCain on an issue like torture is a lose. But when McCain attacked Obama after Obama paid him the compliment on his "recognizing" torture, the trackers dipped. He lost the audience, and looked petty at that moment.
September 26, 2008 10:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
I saw that, too.
September 26, 2008 10:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Awesome.
People are reacting just like us! LOL!
September 26, 2008 10:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
On CNN's audience reaction tracker, McCain is losing the Independents badly, and while Obama is speaking, he's even bringing the Republicans along.
This is turing into a rout!
September 26, 2008 10:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah. They do NOT like when McCain goes on the attack against Obama, or condescends to them. Like right now, talking about the surge. They don't like it.
September 26, 2008 10:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
O I love you guys! I love it!
September 26, 2008 10:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Anyone notice the buzz phrase for Sen McCain? Its "Sen Obama just doesnt understand." McCain has said that at least 13 times. He is trying to paint BO as naive.
September 26, 2008 10:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, but I really don't know if it's working to his advantage.
September 26, 2008 10:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Overall, is this Obama's best debate? I saw maybe half the primary debates, and he's coming across as more cogent and commanding than in any of those.
September 26, 2008 10:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
What is this? McLame is totally wack tonight.
How can anyone think he's been coherent on any subject?
Lord god -
September 26, 2008 10:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
"I love the veterans. They know I'll take care of them. Fuck that GI Bill."
September 26, 2008 10:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
I know. That was just wrong.
September 26, 2008 10:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
"When I came home from prison..." And did I mention I was a POW? In the war, when I was a prisoner?
September 26, 2008 10:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Webb GI Bill?
September 26, 2008 10:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
I really wish Obama called him out on the GI bill.
September 26, 2008 10:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ditto. I wish that he had.
September 26, 2008 10:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Me too.
September 26, 2008 10:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oooooh, POWPOWPOW time!
September 26, 2008 10:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
O - POW POW POW
o veterans come home - you lying piece of shit!
September 26, 2008 10:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm a vet and I know BS when I hear it. Johnny crash doesn't get my vote.
September 26, 2008 10:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
BO started slow, but he ended strong.
September 26, 2008 10:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
I can't believe anyone could understand a thing McLame babbled about the economy - I honestly can't.
September 26, 2008 10:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
McCain said Reagan didn't talk to any Russian leader before Gorbachev. WHAT IS HE TALKING ABOUT?
Reagan received a letter from Brezhnev six weeks after he was inaugurated, and he wrote a warm letter back seeking a better relationship. You can see his letter at http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101030929/tletters_breshnev.html
Reagan concluded treaties with Russian leaders before Gorbachev.
September 26, 2008 10:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Damn it, Obama should have called him out on Veterans.
McCain cares about veterans by opposing G.I. and veteran issues most of the time.
September 26, 2008 10:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wow. Obama just won the foreign policy debate outright. I don't see how anyone could see it differently.
September 26, 2008 10:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
I personally don't see how either.
September 26, 2008 10:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think it will be *perceived* by the MSM as a draw.
September 26, 2008 10:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
CNN is saying it is. But Campbell Brown said, "who needed to knock it out of the park? John McCain. And he didn't."
September 26, 2008 10:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama won, period. But the MSM are saying "draw", because the narrative bullshit must go on.
September 26, 2008 10:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama won, period. But the MSM are saying "draw", because the narrative bullshit must go on.
September 26, 2008 10:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
McCain: I got experience and iam ready on day 1.
Next week VP debate...
Wait a second....
September 26, 2008 10:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
They're spinning it for McCain! Wha?
September 26, 2008 10:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Time for the fact checkers.....
September 26, 2008 10:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
And the Obama bashing is starting...
September 26, 2008 10:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Eugene Robinson trying to lend some sanity to the MSNBC crew, but it's an uphill battle.
September 26, 2008 10:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
I wish someone would adequately explain what the "Surge" actually is. It's this: ramping up stop-loss; retreating from the countryside; and in our place in the countryside, giving weapons to sunni gangs to maintain some semblance of order. The key is the last part. Once we leave, those gangs will use those weapons against shiites and it will be a bloodbath. The country will become a destablized nightmare, a version of Afganistan. Calling it a victory is like calling the game won in the 5th inning, and our side has no one who can get the job done in the bullpen. It's a new version of "Mission Accomplished".
September 26, 2008 10:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well I really thought Obama was great. McLame pulled it together after a nervous start and did the best McLame I've seen in awhile - which is to say, he was on his game and his game is fucking creepy as shit.
It's dangerous. It's tough, I tell ya, tough. He totally echoes Commander CooCoo Bananas when he starts that. You could overdub vid of McLame with CooCoo's same damn words.
September 26, 2008 10:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
"I can reach across the aisle." But he apparently can't look across the stage. I kept wanting Obama to say "John, I'm right here" when McCain was bashing him in the third person to Lehrer.
September 26, 2008 10:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yep - McLame never looked at Obama, and Obama was looking right at McLame. I think McLame was on the defensive right from the start.
September 26, 2008 10:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's a creepy, chickenshit tactic. Like the brown noser in class sucking up to the teacher, expecting the moderator to protect him from the other guy.
September 26, 2008 11:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
David Gergen just said the same that Campbell Brown said, "John McCain needed a clear victory. He's behind. He did not walk out of here with a clear victory, which was what he needed."
September 26, 2008 10:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
CNN & FUAX . . .
Obams says: "John is right. John is right. John is right. John is right. John is right. John is right. John is right. John is right. John is right. John is right."
Welcome to tomorrow's sole sound bite.
September 26, 2008 10:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
The thing is, the independents on CNN's dial really didn't like it when McCain went on the attack, but they did like Obama's bipartisanship.
September 26, 2008 10:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
You missed McCain's lack of eye contact. You'll see photo. CNN and MSNBC had it.
September 26, 2008 10:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
Expect that in an ad (ripping of Biden's primary vid)
September 26, 2008 11:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fuck McCain, He did not look at Obama once! So disrespectful we would never be my President.I have no respect for him at all and never will after his behavior.It was so hard to behave like a gentleman? What happen to being and OFFICER AND A GENTLEMEN?
September 26, 2008 10:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama won tonight. I am going to be donating another $50. This is best perfomance i have ever seen. He was well prepared. i love every moment of it.
September 26, 2008 10:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
I totally agree. Totally.
In my view - and I don't what Greg is thinking on this - McLame was on the defensive right from the beginning and stayed there the whole time.
I do not get the part where Greg thinks Obama was on the defensive - I never saw that. I did see a lot of really flashing eyes from Obama to McLame - Obama has incredible eye contact.
September 26, 2008 11:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
For anybody waiting to see if Obama was presidential enough, he put any doubts to rest tonight. I'll put more stock in the polls over the next few days than the pundits tonight.
September 26, 2008 10:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
TPM you need to worry about the bandwidth. The server apparently overloads and if you want bloggers to stay with you during the big occassions this elections you need to fix the problem
September 26, 2008 10:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh look . . . MSNBC has joined the Obama says "John is right." AND Obama is channeling Richard Nixon in the JFK/Nixon debate.
September 26, 2008 10:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
It was pretty much a tie, but a tie is a win for Obama.
September 26, 2008 10:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
MCCAIN: “We had an energy bill before the United States Senate. It was festooned with Christmas tree ornaments. It had all kinds of breaks for the oil companies, I mean, billions of dollars worth. I voted against it; Senator Obama voted for it.”
THE FACTS: Oilbama did vote for a 2005 energy bill supported by President Bush that included billions in subsidies for oil and natural gas production. McCain opposed the bill on grounds it included unnecessary tax breaks for the oil industry. Oilbama has said he supported the legislation because it provided money for renewable energy while he stashed Big Oil cash in his freezer.
September 26, 2008 11:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
And as many said, McCain's repeated "Sen Obama does not seem to understand" was annoying and condescending. Hopefully voters out there felt the same.
September 26, 2008 11:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
David Gergen of CNN had it right: this was McCain's strength foreign policy. And McCain didn't win, advantage Obama.
September 26, 2008 11:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeppers.
September 26, 2008 11:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
CNN pretty fair, MSNBC trying to be "fair" and leaning toward McCain. Buchanan shouting hard for McCain.
September 26, 2008 11:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's hugely depressing that with our economy in the state it is that we have both candidates promising to squander trillions on defending us from mainly imaginery threats. I'm shaking in my boots in fear of those Iranian missiles. Yeah, right. Will we get health care for kids? Never.
September 26, 2008 11:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
I feel ya but tonite was "scarey bad guy" nite. I think it was important for Obama to look "tough" b/c the rest of the debates will move waway form this (thankfully). I think Obama made hs case well but I hate the "rogue state" crap as much as the next...
September 26, 2008 11:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Biden on CNN. He's burying McCain well.
September 26, 2008 11:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Help me out here. How could this be perceived as a tie? McCain was petulant, whiny, overly blinky, and irritable, and he eventually came close to blowing a gasket. Do people seriously overlook that?
September 26, 2008 11:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree that it wasn't quite a tie. I think Obama won. However, Obama did a few things that he shouldn't ever do again: Return McCain's disrespect with respect.
September 26, 2008 11:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
September 26, 2008 11:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
O my god - those numbers are staggering.
O shit - I could not be happier!!!!!!
September 26, 2008 11:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Really, really encouraged. That is great.
September 26, 2008 11:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Biden a fearsome debater. He killed McCain and embarrassed Skeletor Giulani. McCain's an abject failure, beautiful line.
September 26, 2008 11:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Is there anything that McCain said tonight that Bush would not have said? McCain even had the smirk down.
September 26, 2008 11:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Nice he remind us that Sarah would be at his side
Vote for me I am old and I have a young maverick at my side
September 26, 2008 11:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wolf Blitzer: "I'd love to have Sarah Palin on here tonight like Joe Biden."
Anderson Cooper: "Don't hold your breath."
AHAHAHA!
September 26, 2008 11:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Good one, Anderson.
September 26, 2008 11:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am really pissed. Obama sucked. If he loses the election I'm moving to Canada and I really really don't wan to do that. But he sucked. This is America: You don't raise your hand and ask permission to say that your opponent is a lying lunatic, you just SAY IT.
September 26, 2008 11:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think Obama was awful. McCain just made him look young and dumb. And Obama should NEVER say he agrees with McCain. Obama is just too nice, the bully won.
September 26, 2008 11:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Or you serious Amelie?
Really? What fucking debate did y'all watch?
September 26, 2008 11:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama:
You were wrong on Iraq.
You were wrong when you said Iraq would be easy.
You were wrong when you said we would be greated as liberators.
I've got a bracelet too!
McCain:
Admits the US hast tortured.
Couldn't pronounce Amahdenijad.
Got the name of Pakistan leader wrong.
September 26, 2008 11:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
I disagree almost completely but I bet Obama NEVER says "John is right" again.
September 26, 2008 11:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
O really?
And just exactly how did Obama "suck?"
September 26, 2008 11:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
Tena, what the hell is Amelie talking about? Amelie, Obama didn't yell or rant, but McCains obsession with Iraq and his nasty expressions were poison. Two haymakers landed, "Spain?" and "You were wrong about WDM, Iraq" etc.
September 26, 2008 11:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama let McCain walk and talk all over him, making him look weak. Which is precisely the remaining hurdle for him to win the presidency. Plus, McCain was wobbly from the outset and Obama could have cleaned his clock and put the election away for good tonight. But he didn't. He let an wounded opponent up off the mat. And that is always dangerous. I still think (and pray to god) that Obama will win. But this was a poor performance.
September 26, 2008 11:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, well, whatever -
I think you're wack.
September 26, 2008 11:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Easy there. Look at the numbers a few posts up from Nate Silver. Obama rocked. Don't listen to the idiots on the tube.
September 26, 2008 11:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're high. Even most of the analysts on CNN had Obama winning on their scorecards.
September 26, 2008 11:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
You know what, I actually thought Lehrer was awful tonight. He too often let McCain keep going on and on and on... It's moderator's job to cut debaters off when they
September 26, 2008 11:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
That did kind of piss me off a couple of times. McCain just kept talking...how fucking disrespectful.
September 26, 2008 11:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
I felt exactly the same way.
September 26, 2008 11:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Biden a fearsome debater. He killed McCain and embarrassed Skeletor Giulani. McCain's an abject failure, beautiful line.
September 26, 2008 11:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
What is Palin thinking right now? Is she hoping that the questions will be easier for her? Is she thinking "What was I thinking?" Which network gets the VP debate?
September 26, 2008 11:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Best thing ever.
McCain finishes up the debate. Feels pretty good about his performance. Then Jim Leher says, "and we'll see you next week for the Vice-Presidential Debate..."
That must have killed McCain's buzz pretty quickly.
September 26, 2008 11:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
I thought it was a tie. No surprise McCain campaign already has an ad up on the "John is right" sound bite.
September 26, 2008 11:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
CNN Fact Check on Kissinger: "I am in favor of negotiating with Iran. ...I prefer doing it at the Secretary of State level."
September 26, 2008 11:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama did a great job! Much more controlled and clear then his previous debates. That said Grandpa McCain did very well and managed not to lose his temper to the point of being obvious. Granted McCain set up a lot of easy punches for Obama that were missed like veterans affairs, more tax cuts for the rich, and the fact that Iraq is not Vietnam and the world dynamic is very different forty years later. Sad Grandpa McCain never looked at his opponent but maybe he can't see that far or turn his head without turning his whole dying body? That said, a good debate overall and much less lopsided then I expected.
September 26, 2008 11:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama won. I admit he was not always vehement or full-speed.
It was like reason versus rage. Obama seemsed to call for reason and McLame seem to take refuge under rage
I wish Obama never said "I agree..." atleast not as many times, but Independents may not be as displeased as I am.
Obama declared to middle America today, I'm ready to be the C-I-C.
September 26, 2008 11:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
WBgone, Obama was better than you give him credit for, very likable, strong and presidential. McLame looked like a petulant child and his obsession with Iraq killed him. Tie at worst, I see it as a 55-45 win for Obama.
September 26, 2008 11:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
Man, I hope you're right and I'm wrong. (It HAS happpened before.)
September 26, 2008 11:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
One thing you did not see is CHANGE. That debate was as establishment a country club golf game.
September 26, 2008 11:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/09/intrade-betting-is-suspcious.html
September 26, 2008 11:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
McCain's repeatedly said "Sen Obama is wrong" and Oilbama repeatedly said "McCain is right".
September 26, 2008 11:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
"McCain's repeatedly said "Sen Obama is wrong" and Oilbama repeatedly said "McCain is right"."
Obama won the debate troll jizz, don't wet yourself when presented with the truth.
September 26, 2008 11:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
And which is a sign of strength and confidence? Which is a truer sign of bipartisanship?
September 26, 2008 11:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ok, then somebody here who thinks McLame did so great explain to me what he's going to do with the economy.
'
All I heard was a bunch of bullshit about earmarks. That's about it.
And the business tax.
Y'all want to tell me just how he won that?
September 26, 2008 11:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
I thought McCain made several mistakes going reflexively to spending on the military and veterans. People are concerned about their personal financial well-being now.
Then again, Obama and his eagerness to get over committed in Afghanistan and Pakistan is no winner with me either.
September 26, 2008 11:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Agreed. Obama spelled out how insignificant earmarks really are, but McCain kept coming back to it -- proving to anyone paying attention that it was all he had.
And when McCain tossed out the notion of a spending freeze, which actually could have been a dangerous moment, Obama smacked it down like Shaq blocking a shot into the bleachers.
September 26, 2008 11:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
The hatchet vs. a scalpel line was nice.
September 26, 2008 11:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
That line would make a hell of an ad.
September 26, 2008 11:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Lehrer pissed me off by asking that same question over and over about what was going to be cut and Obama kept giving him reasonable and detailed answers.
McLame launches into a patriotic speech about our American Workers are the Best in the World - and dissing his running mate's same earmarks for Seal DNA that he was dissing Montana on for bear DNA -
And people think he won? Goddamn!
September 26, 2008 11:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Do yourself a favor. Don't read Greg's new posting.
September 26, 2008 11:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hey, is there a link or something where I can find this CNN audience reaction gauge? I want to show it to some friends.
September 26, 2008 11:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
And foreign policy - how did he win that with his points? He wants to stay in Iraq until we win? We WIN? Win what?
He was wrong about every single point that was raised on foreign policy - are you giving him points for not falling down?
What the fuck?
September 26, 2008 11:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
If McCain won the debate, then why is DumbBillC on here spewing?
He only spews when McCain is in trouble.
QED.
September 26, 2008 11:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Great point. That alone seals the deal.
September 26, 2008 11:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/09/26/politics/horserace/entry4482028.shtml
September 26, 2008 11:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Bad facts!!! No!!! McCain won!!!
September 26, 2008 11:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
From that CBS poll, this is good if it holds up:
They don't give a comparable number for McCain, but he's been around long enough that opinions of him aren't likely to change much from one debate.
September 26, 2008 11:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Halperin thinks Obama won! Holy crap!
Mark Halperin’s overall grades: Obama A-, McCain B-
September 26, 2008 11:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're freakin kidding me. ...Wow.
September 26, 2008 11:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
I just fainted...{thump!}
September 26, 2008 11:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama looked more presidential. He was always cool, had a strong command of the facts and pushed back in a respectful way when John McCain attacked.
McCain was good on foreign policy and had some strong moments, but he let his irritation show and he was at times, condescending.
CNN had a viewer tracking poll on the bottom of the screen and John McCains numbers dipped precipitously whenever he would make the "Miss Congeniality" crack.
September 26, 2008 11:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
that was the best line for me and so ture everything he said was the past take the surge he was all about that but never said anything about what he would do next
oh yea I forgot he did a while back it was to stay for 100 years lol
September 26, 2008 11:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
McCain won by a hair, but the average moron probably glazed over for most of the second half of the debate. Speaking on behalf of average morons everywhere, I know I did.
September 26, 2008 11:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Everytime he wasn't speaking McSmirk was looking down with this wierd look on his face. I thought it looked defensive. He wasn't bad visually while speaking. Definitely had the Nixon thang goin' on.
I do think that McCain looks like he's reliving the Cold War while Obama seems ready for the 21st Century...
But, hey, I caucused for the O-man in freezing weather. HA!
September 26, 2008 11:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you guys for your comments, and It is exciting to see that we saw the same thing, a very angry McWar with no respect to his opponent, while Senator Obama is looking presidential.
I believe that MSNBC wants to spin that this is is a close race...It is disappointing to see Matthews bashing Obama and so was Mitchell, Gregory and Buchanan.
However, Keith is not having it nor is Rachel Maddow...
September 26, 2008 11:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Would have been fun to watch tonight if Matthews and Olbermann were anchoring the coverage.
September 26, 2008 11:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
CNN poll, Obama won 58 to 37% on economy and won overall by 5-8 points. This was the instant phone poll just released 8:30 p.m. PST
September 26, 2008 11:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think that precisely means this debate did not change the basic dynamics of the election at all, right? Which means it's essentially a blow to McCain as he needed to turn tonight's debate to a game changer. Well, he has two more chances technically, but I guess Caribou Barbie will seal it for us before that (and which means another Drama King stunt...? Hope not).
September 26, 2008 11:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
It should be noted that Barry Oilbama, who loves Big Oil so much that he voted for the Bush Cheney Energy Bill, showed tremendous disrespect when he continually called McCain by his first name.
McCain called him Senator Obama but Oilbama called a War Hero simply John. That may wash on the Huffington Post and the Daily Kos but to a veteran like myself calling McCain by his first name was tremendously insulting.
September 26, 2008 11:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Maybe John should have called him "boy." That would have gone over well in Mississippi.
September 26, 2008 11:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
So a U.S. Senator is not allowed to call a fellow Senator by his first name? What the fuck do you think this is....some sort of aristocracy? Did you expect Obama to genuflect to McCain? You may be a veteran...but it doesn't make you any less of an asshole.
September 26, 2008 11:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm surprised that Dem Bill C can even type, with Larry Johnson's jizz all over him.
September 26, 2008 11:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Where can we find the Nate Silver figures? CNN poll amazing.
September 26, 2008 11:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/
September 26, 2008 11:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Keith has the CBS poll on MSNBC. Let the post-debate narrative begin to shift in Obama's favor.
September 26, 2008 11:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Freep these polls!!
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/9/26/224559/273/297/611947
September 26, 2008 11:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
I must be going crazy DICK MORRIES on fox news just agreed with us all on the debate that mcsame lost and obama showed he was good on the foreign policy
think I will go check see if I have been drink to much lol
September 26, 2008 11:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Seriously???
September 26, 2008 11:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Shit. That's not a good sign. He's wrong about EVERYTHING.
September 26, 2008 11:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
even the host was saying you are wrong about that dick
but I agree this was meant to be mcsame big topic and he failed to get the knock out he needed and should have got in his mind
fact is he attacked obama about not understanding well obama was composed and assured tonight but most of all he was presidential
September 26, 2008 11:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
McCain knows that he's on the wrong side of the issues, so instead of talking about them on the macro level, his chooses to speak about the micro level.
Instead of discussing the economy, he speaks about earmarks. Instead of discussing the lessons of Iraq, he talks about the surge. Instead of addressing longterm energy solutions, he talks of drilling.
September 26, 2008 11:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Nope, McCain won by a bit. Obama needs to make the point better that McCain wants to spend our money, too, just that he wants to spend it over in the Middle East, while Obama himself would rather see it spent here at home. Same money, spent in different places. Obama started out weak, ended up stonger.
September 26, 2008 11:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Dem BillC, you epitomize McCain supporters: all emotion and no facts. That's how you decide who to vote for?
September 26, 2008 11:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Chigger, all the polls said Obama won. And he did.
September 26, 2008 11:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
What the hell? Am I through the looking glass?
The entire right agrees with me that Obama won. I'm fighting Greg and bunch of whiny liberals
Y'all make me crazy - swear to fucking god!
September 26, 2008 11:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think some of our liberal friends weren't going to be happy unless Obama cut McCain with a knife.
September 26, 2008 11:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Tena, you are right. I'll back you up. Greg is handwringer in chief.
September 26, 2008 11:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama looked clean and sounded sharp, McMoron looked frumpy, old and dishoveled and sounded bitter. . .All these flash polls are showing a huge Obama win and you know what, he deserved it.
September 26, 2008 11:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
One vexing point:
Why the hell did Obama let McCain dominate the topic of Georgia? Obama just rolled over on the issue of "Russian aggression" when he should have asserted that the region’s history cannot be denied. And ignoring such facts is akin to 20th century US foreign (political) policy. Obama could have said:
"Before the South Ossetians were a part of Georgia, they were a part of the USSR. And before that, and all the while, they have been OSSETIANS for over 1500 years. Their cultural heritage is much more complicated than John McCain comprehends. For him to say that, 'we are all Georgians' is ludicrous and naive. His automatic opposition to Russia is an example of his 20th century mindset that has no place in 21st century foreign policy. My advise of ending the aggression on both sides, is more important than stoking cold war divisions."
September 26, 2008 11:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Tena, your reactions are 100% right. Howard Fineman just said McCain was "attack, attack, attack" and Obama was "gentlemanly" and Presidential. Americans don't want a whiner.
September 26, 2008 11:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
This was Kennedy-Nixon all over again:
1.McCain looked ANGRY.
2.Obama held his own on a stage with someone who is far more experienced than him.
September 26, 2008 11:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
CBS Poll:
40% of uncommitted voters who watched the debate tonight thought Barack Obama was the winner. 22% thought John McCain won. 38% saw it as a draw.
68% of these voters think Obama would make the right decision
about the economy. 41% think McCain would.
49% of these voters think Obama would make the right decisions about Iraq. 55% think McCain would.
CNN/Opinion Research telephone poll, MoE 4.5%, reported on air (no link yet):
51-38 Obama win
52-47 O on iraq
58-37 economy
thx to Kos
September 26, 2008 11:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yep.
This was Kennedy-Nixon all over again:
1.McCain looked ANGRY.
2.Obama held his own on a stage with someone who is far more experienced than him.
September 26, 2008 11:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh look . . . MSNBC has joined the Obama says "John is right." AND Obama is channeling Richard Nixon in the JFK/Nixon debate.
September 26, 2008 11:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
After eight years of Rovian slime, some people have come to the conclusion that is the only way to injure an opponent. Obama style is smoother, but just as deadly.
September 26, 2008 11:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
I know I am in the minority big time, and I accept that I can be wrong, hope I am really wrong. But I think debates are about perception, not substance. The average viewer will walk away and forget all but showmanship. McCain was lying through his teeth tonight and got away with it, i.e. veterans. But he came across as sure of himself and the one to be the "CIC". My son and my husband, one a political junkie (son) and one so NOT a junkie (husband), both thought McCain won. Obama has great judgment, but he never took control. McCain had him on the defensive all night. Just my opinion. Now on substance, there is no debate, Obama is so over the top. But the average middle age white guy out there heard how tough McCain will be and they love that shit.
September 26, 2008 11:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
In my view, you are entirely correct. Unfortunately. Cheerleading doesn't change what happened. Obama has to toughen up. The country is pissed. We have EVERY major substantive position in our favor. Just one example: Obama's criticism of McCain's plan to tax health benefits could have (and should have) been a backbreaker; instead, it was barely coherent. That is a primary economic issue, right in the pocket of NEARLY EVERY VOTER and Obama let it get away. He did it time and again. And the economy should be the O-Man's trump card. You simply cannot let an opponent like John McCain -- who has proved himself utterly devoid of honor and willing to do or say anything -- hang around. You have to put him away. That's what worries me. I still think we will win, but this was disheartening. Sorry if people don't want to hear it, but I call 'em like I see 'em. I think we've had quite enough lockstep bullshit for a million years.
September 27, 2008 12:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
Debate polls be damned. Let's see if the overall polls move even more in favor of Obama in, say, four or five days, especially in red states. Maybe I'm a pessimist, expect too much of my guy. Obama started out looking submissive, in too much agreement. McCain looked alpha.
September 26, 2008 11:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
CBS poll:
Thirty-nine percent of uncommitted voters who watched the debate tonight thought Barack Obama was the winner. Twenty-five percent thought John McCain won. Thirty-six percent saw it as a draw.
September 26, 2008 11:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
John McCains new theme song should be :The Fool on the Hill by The Beatles
September 27, 2008 3:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
Obamas' demeanor!D
McCain's the meaner.(
May sanity reign when
our troops are
house cleaners.(policin' that is)
September 27, 2008 4:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
Did anyone else catch McCain's correction of Obama when McCain claimed the surge isn't a tactic, it's a strategy?
It seems the meaning of the waht surge and what it refers to...an increase in the amount of troops is consitently being twisted to some sort of distortion along the lines of the surge being some sort of aggressive forward movement on the part of the US in Iraq, and that's not at all what "surge" refers to.
September 27, 2008 4:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
McCain obviously wants to believe the surge is a strategy because he has such a good time talking about it. Therefore it simply must be more than mere tactics.
On the other hand - when it comes to campaign strategy, he doesn't seem to know which one's which, either...
September 27, 2008 4:33 PM | Reply | Permalink