McCain's Lying Has Gone Too Far, According To ... Karl Rove!
Wow. This is a bit like being labeled a sleaze merchant by Bob Guccione or Larry Flynt.
The Obama campaign is calling attention to Karl Rove's appearance on Fox News today, in which he actually told Chris Wallace that McCain's lying adver-sleazements have gone too far:
WALLACE: All right, and for fair game, what is McCain doing that goes a step too far?ROVE: Well, McCain has gone in some of his ads -- similarly gone one step too far, and sort of attributing to Obama things that are, you know, beyond the 100-percent-truth test.
In fairness, Rove also says Obama has gone too far on occasion, but of course he's going to say that. Plus, Rove doesn't single Obama out for mendacity, merely for the quality of his attacks. The liar in this race is McCain -- according to the Great One himself!
The Obama campaign, not surprisingly, jumped on Rove's remark, emailing out this from spokesperson Tommy Vietor:
"In case anyone was still wondering whether John McCain is running the sleaziest, most dishonest campaign in history, today Karl Rove -- the man who held the previous record -- said McCain's ads have gone too far."
This is an honor indeed.
Late Update: Here's vid...
I doubt it will have any effect on voters, but it certainly should on the media.
September 14, 2008 1:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
House of Cards!
Pack of Lies!
September 14, 2008 1:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
One Stop Shop for Vetting Lady mcLiar:
http://dailysource.org/palin#toc
Amazing list of all topics and issues with videos and links related to each.
Bookmark it! Use it!
Discredit the Trophy VP and you discredit mcLiar's judgment too.
September 14, 2008 2:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think Americans generally seem to play into lies and I don't think someone like Karl Rove is necessarily going to be the best person to be the cover boy of fair politics
McCain, A Walking Medical Condition
September 14, 2008 8:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
McCain does not have a solid economic plan, so his mudslinging gives the media something else to look at.
According FactCheck.org
McCain Economic Plan = Cutting Earmarks = "Earmark Hocus-Pocus"
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/the_budget_according_to_mccain_part_i.html
According to Greenspan article McCain's plan gives a $3.3 trillion tax cut to the top 1%.
McCain identifies $100 billion in earmark spending. FactCheck.org says that figure includes military spending, funding to Israel and other programs that McCain cannot cut. "Wasteful spending" is a much, much smaller figure that cannot possibly use to pay for McCain's extension of the Bush Tax cuts.
September 14, 2008 11:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
The Obama campaign was smart to emphasize the part were Rove is critical of McCain -- notable because of Rove's clear bias -- and totally ignoring the rest. I wonder if it'll outweigh MediaCorp's predictable echoing of Rove's "balanced" criticism ... if they mention it at all.
September 14, 2008 11:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Greg why do we have to be fair to Miss Piggy Rove, the CRIMINAL...see that is your problem, we should believe Rove because he said Obama has gone to far...that is not a fact...one of the few facts that Rove has ever gotten right is what he said about McPALIN...show us where Rove is right about Obama going too far...WHERE GREG!!!!!!!!
September 14, 2008 1:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Rove only gave an excuse for McCain's non computer use but no justification to himself saying Obama went too far.
How is it going too far to tell the truth? McCain doesn't use a computer. He himself said he didn't know how to send an email.
And why is Rove given a free air time platform when he works for the campaign? Isn't that in kind contributions by FOX? ;0
20 days to get registered!
September 14, 2008 8:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
ROFLMAO!
I want to see McLame's face when he hears about this. I really do!
September 14, 2008 1:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Rove hates McCain, but Steve Schdmit is suppose to be Rove's protégé. Forget McCain, Rove isnt showing his boy Steve no love. I wonder what there phone conversation will be like after Steve hears Rove's comments.
September 14, 2008 2:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Schmidt happening:
"We aren't concerned with what the media filter has to say. Including Karl Rove, who's now in the media."
September 14, 2008 2:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
This:
is just classic.
September 14, 2008 1:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
No, it's like being labelled a sleazoid by Karl Rove!
September 14, 2008 8:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Karl Rove saying that someone is going too far is like Carrot-Top calling another comedian a "hack"
September 14, 2008 1:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
I've been very amused ever since it was announced that Rove is working for the McLame Campaign.
I don't know how much of what I read is totally true, but everything I read says that Rove and McLame really hate each other and Rove really wanted McLame to choose Romney and that's why McLame, on impulse, picked Palin. It was an "in your face" to Rove.
And then we're supposed to believe that Rove is helping McLame? If I were McLame, I wouldn't trust Karl Rove as far as I could throw him. He's capable of fucking McLame up and trying to psych us out at the same time and then spending a week or so laughing his ass off about it.
September 14, 2008 1:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Good cop-bad cop, maybe?
September 14, 2008 2:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
I never understood the difference between an anti-American terrorist and Karl Rove. I guess at least one of them irrevesibly mutilates the nation's and I'm not talking about the terrorist.
September 14, 2008 1:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
I mean, mutilates the nation's heart
September 14, 2008 1:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
kash, I agree, but I have the same view of the Bush Administration as a whole.
September 14, 2008 2:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
I say this because Karl Rove & Co have inflicted the FEAR in the American heart, mind and psyche for years now. Fear of the unkmowm and baseless, fear that made most Americans willingly give up their rights and freedon, willingly write a black check to be fucked.
September 14, 2008 3:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
For awhile, yeah. But only for awhile.
'
Kash, that's over now.
September 14, 2008 6:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
The most famous POS of our time is calling McSHAME on his BS.
Can McSHAME get any lower than this?
YES
September 14, 2008 1:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
I wonder what Karl Rove's game is, here.
You know it isn't a sudden outburst of veracity.
September 14, 2008 1:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sssshhhhh, don't spoil the fun
September 14, 2008 1:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
I do love you, Lalo. It sometimes sucks to be woken up with a cold pail of water over the head [repeatedly, every morning for months on end), but if there's a possibility the house is burning down, it's good to know.
I'm sure you enjoy watching us curse at you when you do it, too, so we all win out ;)
September 14, 2008 1:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
At least someone gets it
September 14, 2008 1:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, those brilliant Republicans and their reverse psychology....whatever will we do?
It will be fun to see what you are saying on Nov. 5th. I have a feeling you won't be 5 miles from here.
September 14, 2008 1:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Why do you insist on being always wrong?
September 14, 2008 1:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
You think your schtick is so subtle we all don't get it, lalo?
Really?
O man - I'm so sorry to tell you I knew what you were claiming you were doing - you're frontin, of course- trolling by any other name is trolling.
or
A troll is a troll is a troll.
September 14, 2008 1:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Just keep the faith, Tena, keep the faith.
Your job is to hope and to donate, so I'm sure you're doing great.
September 14, 2008 1:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
The thing that bothers me the most, lalo, is your attitude of contempt and your barely concealed zeal to see us lose - for some reason.
If you're not a Repug troll, that makes no sense, but every one of your comments is just brimming with contempt.
which makes you unpleasant. Not that you care, apparently.
September 14, 2008 2:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Tena, you can call me whatever you like but don't get too upset when I return the compliment.
This site has lost its intellectual purpose a long long time ago, and right now it's just an online version of MSNBC.
If it's okay to be vicisiouly partisan towards McCain/Palin, why is it not okay to be the same towards Obama/Biden?
Because at the end of the day, this is the only thing that's left here, partisan vitriol, hate, smear and flailing of arms.
99.9% of Obama supporters here are doing nothing but spitting contempt and critisize anyone who thinks differently.
Any attempt to criticism is instantly killed with troll hunt and other tricks by people who don't like their bubble disturbed.
So why are you accusing me of contempt when most of your own comments are just like mine? Only because we direct it towards different people?
September 14, 2008 3:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
The clear difference is that you are not shouting into the bubble, as we are, you are poking it with a pin. It it's most cynical terms, let's call it denial versus sadism.
So no, there is not really a moral equivalency.
To be fair, I'm sure there are Obama supporters poking people at Redstate. Those are your ideological soulmates, not the folks here.
September 14, 2008 3:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
And you have no idea what I'm doing at RedState.
September 14, 2008 3:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
And we don't give a shit.
Dude. You're not important.
September 14, 2008 11:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's a lot of it.
You mischaracterize what is going on here, Lalo. There is a lot of criticism of Obama here among his supporters. And the enthusiasm is real.
It's your opinion that we are a useless backwater - it begs the question, however, what you're doing here.
September 14, 2008 3:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm here for the same reason you're here - wasting time.
As for the tone, I'm wondering if you remember the very first exchange you and I had here. I certainly do.
September 14, 2008 3:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
No, I don't.
Sorry.
September 14, 2008 3:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Nevermind then.
September 14, 2008 3:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm not wasting time - this thing is a black hole for time - no doubt about it. But I wasn't online for 8 months to a year until the election heated up.
That's why I'm here.
I'm mostly likely gone again once we get Obama elected.
September 14, 2008 3:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
"I'm here for the same reason you're here - wasting time."
No, you are here the same reason that most trolls make their existence known - to be a complete and utter dick.
September 14, 2008 5:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm sure she doesn't give a shit.
Neither do the rest of us.
September 14, 2008 11:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Why waste your time here, then?
September 14, 2008 3:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
A certain mentality requires Mr. Lalo to invent alogical puzzles to which he knows the equally detached, undeducible "answer." This enables him to feel superior to the teeming masses who are clearly incapable of comprehending the issue.
September 14, 2008 3:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
I could recognize you just by the pompous tone alone, no need for an avatar.
September 14, 2008 3:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
"I could recognize you just by the pompous tone alone, no need for an avatar."
The great irony of the modern day troll is that even though they know that their main purpose is life is to be an unadulterated dick - they turn around and complain about someones language, or the tone of the people who respond to them. Its sort of like someone plucking your ears, smacking the back of your neck, or some other kind of antagonizing gesture - then being absolutely shocked when that person kicks their fucking teeth down their throat. Amazing.
September 14, 2008 5:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
You can put orange hair on a troll, but at the end of the day, it's still a troll.
September 14, 2008 1:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
In other words, you can put lipstick on a troll and...
Oh brother, here we go again.
September 14, 2008 2:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Rove "admitted" McCain's lying because lying is part of the overall Republican strategy, which is:
1) To dishearten and confuse political and media enemies.
2) To confuse the issue of a close election, making it more opaque to the planned theft.
3) To subliminally make it look like McCain is forced to lie out of love of country and because God made him so darned mavericky. Ahh, poor John, suffering more slings and arrows for his country’s sake. Why does God torment him so?
Rove's "admitting" that McCain's lying is ALSO part of the Republican strategy. Figure it out.
September 15, 2008 12:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
McCain; Karl Rove never said I went beyond the 100% truth test.
September 14, 2008 3:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Rove knows a loser.
And Palin/McCain is a loser.
September 14, 2008 2:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Knowing the incredible selfishness that defines Bush and his Turd Blossom, I'm guessing that they believe that the only way to put some lipstick on their own pig legacy is to make McStain look even worse than Bush.
Perhaps Rove is behind McStain's latest bunch of ads that paint McStain, not Obama, as the sleeze player. Perhaps Rove told McStain to keep lying to the American people because it really works!
Like Palin, Bush/Rove are all about loyalty and long held grudges, and they are not happy about McStain running around telling everyone that their current problems are all the result of BUSH!
At least the hopeful side of me is wanting to believe that Bush/Rove will let McStain sink so they can get in that final "gotcha".
PEACE
September 14, 2008 4:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think he was caught off guard and even he, knows the truth and didn't have time to spin it in his head.
September 14, 2008 5:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree with Tena above. Rove and McSwine despise each other. Rove wants to "help" McSwine in the worst way. It is especially delish that he will charge the McSwine campaign top dollar even as he inserts the shiv.
September 14, 2008 1:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Very interesting and very telling coming from Rove, who along with George Bush's 1988 team were the primary progenitors of the sleazy, no-holds-barred, no-distortion-is-too-extreme style of running a campaign.
So what motivates Rove to mention this? You know he can't be that far removed from McCain's campaign strategists. My guess is that internal McCain numbers are starting to show that the constant Gov. Palin 'bridge to nowhere' and Sen. McCain's campaign ads are starting to have a negative effect on the ticket. This is Rove's way of signalling to them that they might want to back off, lest McCain's relatively strong (for now) numbers slip to the point where Sen. Obama becomes uncatchable.
September 14, 2008 1:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
September 14, 2008 1:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
Boy, this "House of Cards made from Packs of Lies" Story is just getting bigger and bigger.
Let me see an ad on this tpm!!!
September 14, 2008 1:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
One Stop Shop for Vetting Lady mcLiar:
http://dailysource.org/palin#toc
Amazing list of all topics and issues with videos and links related to each.
Bookmark it! Use it!
Discredit the Trophy VP and you discredit mcLiar's judgment too.
September 14, 2008 2:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
How long before McCain calls Karl Rove a cunt?
September 14, 2008 1:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Nah, NY Times will print a front page article tomorrow proclaiming that Karl Rove just endorsed Obama, turning him into "more of the same"
September 14, 2008 1:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Will McCain POW POW POW Rove?
September 14, 2008 1:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
this is like John McCain calling someone old
this is like Dick Cheney calling someone evil
this is like Bill Clinton calling someone a cheater
this is like Sarah Palin calling someone untruthful
this is like George Will calling someone boring
September 14, 2008 1:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wow. Now I am officially certain that I have fallen down the rabbit hole. Where's the dormouse and the march hare, and will somebody please get me some of those eat me, drink me psychodelics?
September 14, 2008 1:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Rove does look rather larva-like so I did a little Photoshop moment of Karl's head on the hookah-smoking caterpillar.
September 14, 2008 2:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
McCain doesn't give a crap whether or not his campaign lies. His campaign even said that in the politico article.
It's up to the Obama campaign to start calling McCain dishonorable in ads.
Listen to Begala.
September 14, 2008 1:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Rove is lying about McCain not being able to physically use a computer. NYT two months ago McCain: "I am learning to get online myself, and I will have that down fairly soon, getting on myself. I don’t expect to be a great communicator, I don’t expect to set up my own blog, but I am becoming computer literate to the point where I can get the information that I need – including going to my daughter’s blog first, before anything else.
September 14, 2008 1:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
He's lying, and, he's ignoring the fact that the McCain campaign itself trumpeted the fact that McCain uses a laptop in their response to the Obama ad.
September 14, 2008 1:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Here's the link to the takedown of this lie:
John McCain, laptops and the press
September 14, 2008 2:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Incidentally, even though McCain himself said he can physically use the computer just fine, it might be worth pointing out that most disabled people are perfectly able to use the computer too.
September 14, 2008 3:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Chicago Tribune columnist Steve Chapman, a libertarian who often supports the Republican Party, made one of the strongest comments I've seen about McCain and integrity in the MSM:
Read the column.
September 14, 2008 1:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Member of the media. From Chicago. Rallying to Obama's side. What else is new?
September 14, 2008 1:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
..it beats clumsily linking to the Telegraph.
September 14, 2008 2:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
How many more posts til you have enough McCain Bucks to get the leather jacket?
September 14, 2008 2:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Apparently you don't know much about the Chicago media. Hint: the Tribune is a Republican-leaning paper with a lot of conservative columnists.
September 14, 2008 2:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
What a succinct description of Lalo.
September 14, 2008 2:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Lalo annoints itself the role of shepard without first having been asked, and does not seem to comprehend the tarnish this places on its words, true or nae.
September 14, 2008 2:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Very nicely said.
September 14, 2008 2:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Lalo is the equivalent of a spent nuclear reactor fuel rod: not radioactive enough to do any actual work, but too "hot" to be disposed of safely.
September 14, 2008 4:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
You keep voicing your worthless opinion.
Why? No one cares.
September 14, 2008 11:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
So McCain lies and his polls go up. For the wingnuts it doesn't matter, Sarah is thier President and they expect her to lie to get there.
I have to wonder if a good portion of the swing vote sees lying in the campaign as a metaphor for Presidential ruthlessnes. They want a President who will be ruthless in their behalf and lying is part of it.
But at what point does his credibility begin to be damaged? This level of sleaziness doesn't usually happen until the last two weeks before the election. After two months of this how can anybody believe anything that comes out of his mouth?
September 14, 2008 2:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
This seems to me to be the flaw in McCain's strategy... Particularly to have the media/pubic getting skeptical of what he says before the debates.
September 14, 2008 5:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
But at what point does his credibility begin to be damaged?
I believe we have arrived. This week will tell the story of it. Bully v Wuss is a traditional American argument, but when lies enter the picture, there stops being two sides to the argument.
And I think we are just about there.
September 14, 2008 2:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm with you!
Indeed, your comment about the lies being always about a cover-up prompted my post about the Faustian Bargain by mcLiar:
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/09/lady-macdeath-a-faustian-barga.php
I want to credit your posts for thoughts that went into that post of mine. Thanks!
September 14, 2008 2:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Anybody checked Hell to see if it has frozen over?
September 14, 2008 2:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Global warming is an act of god. He/she/it did it just to prevent hell from freezing over.
Without an adversary, what's the point of the struggle? You need a struggle to keep Evolution on track.
September 14, 2008 3:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
I immediately looked out the window after reading this post. The sky wasn't purple, and pigs weren't flying. So I concluded that Rove must be up to something nefarious (which in Rove's case means "breathing and having eyes open").
September 14, 2008 6:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
The polls do not reflect reality. And that's not an opinion. The reality is that we have registered over 11 million new Democratic voters. The GOP has lost over 600,000 registered Repug voters.
The polling samples do not reflect this at all - ever. And this is reality, as is the $66 million Obama raised in August. About 500,000 of those donors were new Obama donors.
This is reality right here - not those fucking phony goddamn polls.
September 14, 2008 2:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
BROOKE GLADSTONE on Bill Moyers Journal:
... But as you know, if we want to talk about something that's happening in this campaign that bears heavily on the media, it's the role of polls. And the fact of the matter is because every poll asks the question "Who would you vote for if the election were today?" instead of "Who are you going to vote for in November?" the number of genuine undecideds is hugely reduced.
Because if there were 30 percent undecided as there may well be even in the electorate today, nobody would be interested in the polls. So they ask this other question, forcing them to present their slight lean as a decision, so, therefore, the undecideds go into the single digits because the question is "Who would you vote for now?" instead of "Who will you be voting for in November?"
McCain08
Home of the Whopper®
Over 1 Million Told™
September 14, 2008 2:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
LES PAYNE on Bill Moyers Journal:
... So, to the question of if the election was held today, I mean, the answer is, "I would be very surprised because I thought it was in November."
McCain08
Home of the Whopper®
Over 1 Million Told™
September 14, 2008 2:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Things are close enough among "likely voters" now that I think the election will be won or lost with the "unlikely voters."
And since no one polls them, we'll be biting our nails until election day.
September 14, 2008 5:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
fivethirtyeight.com says one of the states (Minnesota?) used "registered voters" in they poll and Obama was ahead in the double digits.
Lately they switched to "likely voters" and the race is tied.
September 14, 2008 11:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Both campaigns ought to be careful about... there ought to be an adult who says: 'Do we really need to go that far in this ad?"
I think THIS statement is MORE TELLING. "There ought to be an ADULT who says...."
Is he saying there's no adults in the McCain camp?
September 14, 2008 2:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Rove hates McCain, but Steve Schdmit is suppose to be Rove's protégé. Forget McCain, Rove isnt showing his boy Steve no love. I wonder what there phone conversation will be like after Steve hears Rove's comments.
September 14, 2008 2:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
My idea about what Rove may or may not be up to is my little conspiracy fiction and may not be grounded in reality.
Except that I wouldn't trust Rove and that's based on stone cold sober reality.
September 14, 2008 2:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
The master of "drive it like you stole it" calls out another reckless carjacker. That's rich.
September 14, 2008 2:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
can we just ignore palin and lalo? wouldnt that just be the most productive thing to do?
September 14, 2008 2:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
I wonder if political reporters, given what Rove said, will now start speaking of the disarray in the Republican Party.
Doubtful.
September 14, 2008 2:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
McCain is not morally fit to be president. It can't be said enough.
September 14, 2008 2:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
There's a comment that belongs on every post!
September 14, 2008 2:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Listen and pay attention to Rove: Rove merely said that Obama have gone too far in his attacks....But he clearly said that Mccain is LYING in his own attacks.
September 14, 2008 2:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama campaign writers must get paid by the word with bonuses for extra syllables. Verbosity rules!
Rewrite;
"John McCain is running the sleaziest, most dishonest campaign in history[;] today Karl Rove -- the man who held the previous record -- said McCain's ads have gone too far."
September 14, 2008 2:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Comare this to what Bill O'Reilly said about Obama in Time Magazine
"...he's a sincere man and a tough guy. His policy is what he says it is. He's no phony."
September 14, 2008 2:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Rove said this to neutralize Obama's message "More of the same" with respect to McCain using Rovian tactics.
September 14, 2008 2:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
So, "more of the same" becomes "worse than what we've seen"?
Is that supposed to be better for McCain?
September 14, 2008 3:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Lalo is "above the fray", intellectually removed to some Archemedian point from which he can mutter his contempt for petty partisans who just don't get it that Dems are no better than Repubs yada yada.
But was he arrested with the other "anarchists" showing their disgust for a rigged "two party" system? No, action is beneath him as well.
Too bad he wasn't born a couple of centuries prior at Versailles, where his irony and wit would be better appreciated.
September 14, 2008 3:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Dammit. This was in reply to someone upthread. Oh well, at least the avatars are back. I missed seeing everyone's mug.
September 14, 2008 3:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
You have no clue what you're talking about. You have no clue about what I've done or not done, who I donated to or not.
As to your silly point about the rigged two-party system - if it bothers you so much, why wouldn't you vote for a third party? Action is the only real form of political process and so far as I can tell the majority of action by the faithful here has been switching on the PC and switching off the brain.
You're here because you want to be part of the "cool" crowd and you have no idea what it really means. You have nothing in common with the Democrats except for financing their campaign.
September 14, 2008 3:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Lalo is getting mad...
What's wrong, big baby?
No one likes you, no wonder why...
PD: If you don't like it, go and write a letter. I won't read it anyway. Life's too short, troll.
September 14, 2008 3:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
why would i care if someone likes me here or not? I'm nothing like you, so don't project.
September 14, 2008 3:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
STILL talking?
We still don't care!
September 14, 2008 11:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
"You have no clue what you're talking about. You have no clue about what I've done or not done, who I donated to or not."
I like it that way. I will admit I sometimes enjoy laughing at your posts and "hign minded opinions". The reason for my laughter is that an asshole who wants to be taken as a serious high minded intellectual should wiped clean sometimes.
September 15, 2008 12:15 AM | Reply | Permalink
*This* is the cool crowd?!?!?!!
Lalo, thanks. You just made me laugh out loud.
September 14, 2008 5:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Then why don't you tell us what you've done, who you've contributed to and who you want to win, instead of just doing the Olympian detachment thing? Not saying you have to justify yourself, or do anything anyone wants you to do, for that matter, but a little transparency regarding your motives would give you a lot more moral authority in these long skinny threads you seem to be provoking lately.
September 14, 2008 6:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
"You have no clue what you're talking about. You have no clue about what I've done or not done, who I donated to or not."
Looks like the resident shitbag is getting shitty - good!
September 14, 2008 6:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Rove should bow down before Guccione and Flynt as towers of integrity, whose self-respect and respect for others is far beyond anything that Rove's shriveled moral sense is able to comprehend.
In the same way that anywhere a monarch stays is, officially, a "palace," Rove takes with him and inhabits his palace of filth, degradation, and lies wherever he goes.
It's a palace where the poorly modelled, imitation-Roman plaster statues all have their genitalia picked out in colors and Guccione's movie "Caligula" is running in a loop 24 hours a day.
Rove and McCain and Bush make one think of the ambiguous decree of the Oracle of Delphi to King Croesus contemplating invading the Persians: "If you attack the Persians you will destroy a mighty empire...."
September 14, 2008 3:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, I wouldn't use Guccione and Flynt as icons of sleaze. As purveyors of fine erotic art, they've helped remove thousands of gallons of testosterone from the bloodstreams of countless horny guys. The streets are a safer place thanks to them and their ilk.
OK, a lot of that art may be bad art, but bad art is still art, right?
September 14, 2008 3:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Not to mention Flynt's heroic defense of the 1st Amendment.
(Poor Falwell. How's he doing these days?)
McCain08
Home of the Whopper®
Over 1 Million Told™
September 14, 2008 4:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
I disagree with the thrust of this story, adapted as it was from a snipped of a Fox News report, and I see no cause for celebration of it. I think the point of the Fox News story and Karl Rove's argument is that both sides, McCain and Obama, are stretching the truth. If they keep saying that in their "news/critical analysis " sections, and keep propagating the lies from the McCain camp in their "commentary" programs, then it begins to look like both sides are equivalently dishonest with the voters. The McCain campaign has branded the mainstream media as biased and here's Fox saying that everybody is being a little bit loose with the truth.
It's not good enough if the voters conclude that "everybody's doing it."
September 14, 2008 3:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree with you to a certain extent. I saw Peggy Noonan do the same thing on Morning Joe the other day - claim that McCain and Obama were both going too far with the negative campaigning. Needless to say, no one there bothered to ask her to justify her assertions that Obama was just as guilty as McCain in the negativity department.
September 14, 2008 3:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree as well, to a point. Doesn't everyone assume that politicians lie? Thats one of the prime reasons for political DIS-engagement by the masses. I think it is possible that Rove is *diminishing* the importance of the liar, liar attack.
I certainly hope that McCain gets called on the b.s. of course, because he has gone BEYOND 'stretching the truth'. Will the voters recognize it? Hell, I'll be happy if the politically diesengaged vote for Obama because he's the lesser of two liars...
September 14, 2008 4:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't trust him but seems like a handy talking point.
Is it possible that Rove was trying to save a little face with Wallace who just last week called them out on "thanks, but no thanks"?
Oh shit! Bumper sticker:
:)
September 14, 2008 3:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Isn't Karl Rove documented as having consulted for the McCain campaign?
If this is true, then what do we take these comments as?
- Rove is no longer consulting for the McCain campaign and therefore no longer attempting to be on message for them?
- Rove is doing a little backstabbing that they went with the current strategy instead of whatever strategy Rove wanted?
September 14, 2008 3:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
...but what kind of moron would you have to be to be "undecided" in this race??
September 14, 2008 3:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
... less of a moron than somebody who's "decided" to vote for McSame.
September 14, 2008 3:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Couldn't agree more. These self declared patriots, repugs who always think they are more of am Americans than rest of us are willingly to let a insane and instable old man to take up the presidency and are enthustic to see a almost to zero, zilch show parade stand next in line.
Baffling and spectacular.
September 14, 2008 3:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
I love this comment.
LOL!
September 14, 2008 3:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
I loved Jzap's comment - but this didn't post right.
Everyone's agreeing but I'm not sure we're all agreeing. LOL!
September 14, 2008 4:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Word.
September 14, 2008 4:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hillary Clinton campaigning for Obama now live at CNN.com
September 14, 2008 3:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
"No way, No how, No McCain, NO PALIN!"
September 14, 2008 4:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
what kind of response does that line get?
September 14, 2008 4:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
From my perspective it got a large response. Hard to say how large the crowd was, but it was in a gym. And she really seemed to spit out the word Palin more so than McCain.
September 14, 2008 4:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
And the lead story on CNN Politics page is "Rove: McCain went 'to far' in ads."
September 14, 2008 4:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
Currently "most popular" story on cnn.com.
September 14, 2008 6:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
I smell a Rat (Rove, not Clinton.) Watch for mcCain to start telling audiences that Obama and Rove are in league with each other, and McCain is the only reformer in town.
September 14, 2008 3:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Dude.
I mean -
dude.
September 14, 2008 4:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Talking about something bizarre.
Still, anything is possible.
McCain-Palin'08: Lying to win
September 14, 2008 4:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you, I don't understand why the Obama campaign had put out a response.
September 14, 2008 7:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think there's a lot of truth in this diary. It's the economy folks. Don't be distracted.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/9/14/142735/867/447/598584
September 14, 2008 3:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Co-sign. Excellent diary.
September 14, 2008 3:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Good diary.
Here's the thing - we can get distracted all we want right here - we all know the economy sucks - you want every conversation, every thread to be about the economy?
What y'all seem to keep saying is Obama can only say one thing at a time. Well that's not true. He is campaigning on the economy. He is also on the attack against McLame and Palin and those independent voters in that diary who like Palin? Maybe if they find out what a liar she is, they'll change their minds.
You cannot speak for people - you cannot claim to know what's in their minds -
September 14, 2008 4:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree with most of it. I have doubts about the last part where he says "in the end these voters and voters like them will get real and vote issues rather than personalities." Connection, trust, identification can outweigh issues.
That's why I think these small venues are very important for Obama especially since the swing state democrats need the quality time to connect with Obama.
September 14, 2008 4:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes and by extension, the entire character thing. McLame is the one who wanted to make this about character.
Well, be careful what you wish for.
September 14, 2008 4:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Could be Rove's 'honor' has more to do with the MSM avalanche against the dynamic duo of lying, McCain and Palin. I have a hard time believing that this won't impact some voters in the middle. The man of honor has fallen from grace.
September 14, 2008 3:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
HE CAN'T EVEN COUNT RIGHT, AND WANTS TO BE YOUR PRESIDENT or I'M CHANGING AND I CAN'T COUNT
It's pretty pathetic when McCains campaign inflates the crowd estimates of his events, and then attributes those numbers to other sources who then openly deny providing said numbers
They lied about crowd size at a rally in Fairfax Virginia, and said they got the numbers from the fire marshal. The fire marshal said his office "didn't do a count".
Then the size of a crowd in Pennsylvania was inflated, and those numbers were attributed to the secret service. Malcolm Wiley a spokesperson for the agency said "we didn't provide any numbers to the campaign".
September 14, 2008 4:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
May I propose a baseless conspiracy theory that Rove is trying to unhitch himself from McCain because his crystal ball is telling him that McCain's campaign is going to end in disaster, and some of the blame will fall on him if he doesn't?
Not that I believe it.
September 14, 2008 4:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
I buy that totally.
September 14, 2008 4:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, that's how I took this as well.
September 14, 2008 4:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think it's actually a slight variant:
Rove is really quite good at lies and gross hyperbole. He knows how to cook it, make people swallow it, and yet still get his guy elected. He taught the McCain guys everything they know, but may well feel like they're doing a botch job of it. To Rove, it's an art form, and he, more than anyone, may recognize when it's not being done well. He's not bothered by the ethics of it, just the execution.
And since his name has been tied to it, he wants to create distance. This is just sports commentary. If it were an honorable skill being discussed, he'd address the inadequate technique more directly. If the ethics of it mattered to him, he'd make that clear. As it is, he just comments on it being "wrong".
September 14, 2008 6:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Good point and sounds right ..... it certainly IS more ham-handed than his usual ugliness, which rarely got called out by the MSM.
September 14, 2008 8:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
But so back to the larger point, this isn't a clip that will play well with the public because he said Obama had gone too far as well, so to a low-information voter, it's another story that politicians will, generally, say anything to get elected.
The audience has to be the media. Maybe the Dems' problem is that they've been focusing their message at voters while Repugs have been manipulating the media. The Obama camp needs to start shaming the media.
I can't say how badly I wanted Schumer to yell at Brokaw today for asking him about polls (i.e. horse race coverage) rather than the issues. The Obama camp really could score big if they hit at horse race journalism, because the only other big story lines in the election are (1) the issues and (2) McCain's selling of his sole (Sarah Palin is a subset of this one). Shame the horseracers into acting like journalists and covering lies. Don't just play ball.
September 14, 2008 4:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAArrrrrrrrrghghghgh!
dude, where have you been for the last - o - 3 days?
If McLame is playing the media, somebody needs to tell him that he got the wrong playbook.
They've called him a liar for the last 2, 3 days.
September 14, 2008 4:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's affecting the media that reach those of us who pay attention pay attention (e.g., NY Times editorial page, MSNBC), but not the media that reach low-information voters (CNN). If you missed Meet the Press, watch it. If you're a low-information voter and you tune in, you come away with the view that all politicians lie, not that McCain has lost the ability to tell the truth.
Why did Brokaw ask Schumer about the polls? Is the idea to tell the American people who they are supposed to vote? It's shameful, and there is an opening now for the Dems. to force the issue and actually turn the media back to doing their job.
September 14, 2008 4:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ok one more time:
If someone doesn't get righteous about being way more precise about things than "low information voter" I'm going to go berserk.
A. define it for me
B. how many are there?
C. you do realize that that argument is boilerplate that can shoot down any positive argument someone makes. That's all it is.
September 14, 2008 4:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Look, I'm not exactly sure why you're attacking my comment. My main point is that, as others have suggested, the Rove point has to be aimed at the media, because he did say Obama had gone too far as well, and you have to fully understand Karl Rove to get why this is a big deal (maybe I'm underestimating the public, but messaging works better when it's crisp).
Low-information voter = undecided. Frankly, I don't know how anyone paying attention could be on the fence. The kind of voter who gets a talking point, or theme, in his or her head and it sticks. Probably aren't many of them, but they are the ones in play.
I'm not sure exactly what "argument" you're suggesting is boilerplate. My whole point is that the Obama camp can (and I think they are) force the media to tell their narrative, rather than telling it themselves. And part of that is getting them away from this horse race crap. The next time a surrogate goes on a show and is shown a poll, the surrogate ought to say "I'm here to talk about issues, not horse races. The American people are watching, and they have a decision to make. And the last thing that they need to know to make that decision is what the polls look like. I'm sure they are much more interested in whether John McCain's pathologyical lying makes him unfit for office."
September 14, 2008 4:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's what I'm talking about. I'm not attacking you - but talking about low info voters and pitching a campaign in their direction when they are largely undefined and everyone is very vague as to their impact, make them pretty meaningless. And then it's a boilerplate argument. All someone has to say is: "o man, this new ad is really going to make voters sit up and listen" and 50 people will say something more or less like - "low information voters don't know shit," "Amurkins are dumb" and on it goes - and that's the kind of vague, bullshit statement that is boilerplate against any comment with optimism about the election outcome.
Not these generalities.
September 14, 2008 4:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
First time I have seen them equated, but now I know how you define the phrase.
Do you begin to see the problem here, or not?
September 14, 2008 5:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Um not really. I mean, I'm sure there are lots of decided voters with a very low amount of information related to anything important, but the "gut Republican" voters aren't really in play, so who cares?
September 14, 2008 5:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fair enough.
My larger point is that "the media" is populated by people who respond to stemuli like the rest of us. They don't like to be duped, or to believe they are falling down on their job by not calling a lie a lie. I think the Obama camp can push them into better reporting by point out that John McCain is manipulating them by having them cover both sides of a lie. (Yes, I see the irony.)
Another button is that the've given up their role by latching onto horse-race jounalism, which doesn't do anyone any good (and frankly is bad for us at the monment, given the way the polls have shifted -- "Sen. Schument, why is the world falling around Barack Obama?"). This is a Democratic year, and they more they talk about policy and issues, the better it is for Obama. So, I just wanted Chuch Schumer to say "you're not a consultant and I'm not here to talk polls." But he didn't.
September 14, 2008 5:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
So you are dissatisfied with how Chuck Schumer handled his job as a surrogate.
Ok - but you tend to vault yourself right inside the heads of a bunch of people you don't know and I think that's - I apologize in advance for this - but it's intellectually dishonest. I think the whole "low Info voter" argument is intellectually dishonest.
September 14, 2008 5:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Three items: (1) I don't think you know me well enough to call me intellectually dishonest or make generalizations about what I tend to do. I assume that you're not meaning to paint with such a broad brush.
(2) Do you deny that there are voters that walk into the booth with less-than-sufficient knowledge? Why spend money on ads at all if we assume voters have perfect information? Indeed, why give to a campaign in the first place?
(3) I'm sorry, I don't see how someone could be fully informed about the issues in this campaign and be on the fence. Nor do I see how thinking that is intellectually dishonest. It's not like 2000 when the cadidates are trying to out-middle each other.
September 14, 2008 5:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Where did I say you were intellectually dishonest? Nowhere.
I said the argument is.
September 14, 2008 5:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm not trying to make this personal, I'm just a bit confused as to why you think it's intellectually dishonest. Intellectual dishonesty means that you've taken inconsistent positions that expose your real motivation. I don't think I've taken any position inconsistent with the low-information (or as I've now corrected it, thanks to some help, the "uninformed voter") theory, and I certainly don't have some hidden agenda. So I don't know what you mean.
(For the record, I think my education makes me better able to discuss political issues than my high school classmates who spent their 20s smoking pot and making hoagies. If mean that my position is a little condescending, it is, but it's not dishonest.)
September 14, 2008 6:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
I must disagree with you. A low information voter doesn't have to be undecided and an undecided voter doesn't have to be an uninformed one.
Some people are just too narrow minded to pay attention to the media and they stick with whoever fits their views. Some people just can't afford to pass their time watching blogs and news channels.
But, most important, is difficult to believe that there's low information out there. This is 2008: everything anyone needs to know is just one click away and if you don't have a computer, just go to your local library or cybercafe.
But if there's something that helps to keep voters uninformed is the obsession of the media with the notion of the horse race, the scandals, the punditry and the other stuff that denies the presentation of the elements that really matters: the issues and the proposals of the candidates.
September 14, 2008 5:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think we agree, and that was my basic point (that, and that the Dems can push the MSM away from the horse-race reporting).
Perhaps I should have said "uninformed" rather than "low information"? People who see the cacophony, but never weed through it. We have to try and make our message appear to one who just tunes into the cacophony, and never wades through it, and that requires pushing the MSM to repeat our messages (even as questions) over and over and over. That's exactly what FixedNews and the Repugs have been doing.
September 14, 2008 5:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
You have a point, indeed.
September 14, 2008 5:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Does that make McSame a fish monger?
September 14, 2008 4:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Nice. But I thought he was the fish in the metaphore?
Obviously, his soul.
September 14, 2008 4:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
I know, but the opportunity for snark was just too irresistible :-)
From the Wikipedia article on fishmonger...
In that context, his Earmark Queen is the fish.
September 14, 2008 4:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
So are you saying, then, that Gov. Swift was just lying?
September 14, 2008 4:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
There is a big difference in running negative ads that highlights an opponenent's weaknesses, and their stands on issues you disagree with -- and negative ads that are untrue and deceitful.
There is a lot of equating of these two kinds of ads going on here. Positive wasn't enough; Obama tried to campaign only on his vision and comparing his policies on taxes, health care, etc to McCain's. That was drowned out by the viscious, dishones [and attention-getting] ads the McCain camp threw out.
All negative ads are not equal. Some are true/some are not. I think Obama needs more negative ads, which truthfully look at the McCain record.
September 14, 2008 4:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Exactly, but everytime the media reports the lies, they struggle to find something Obama did to "counter" it. For crying out loud, the guy on C-SPAN this morning actually asked whether Obama was equally guilty because his spokesperson called the McCain campaign sleazy. Huh?
I think the Obama camp is now starting to shame the MSM into doing its job, and they need to keep on it.
September 14, 2008 4:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree. One of McCain's lobbyists said they decided to go negative initially because early in the summer, the MSM largely ignored McCain unless he made a gaffe. McCain has said that the tone of the race would be different if Obama had agreed to joint townhall meetings, since that would have given McCain more press. So they went negative to get more press coverage and wear down Obmama's image.
September 14, 2008 4:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
And now we have two polls (Hotline and Research 2000) that put Obama in the lead by +2 (so within the margin of error). Looking at Research 2000's cross tabs, it looks like they polled West, Midwest and South (but not the Northeast). McCain wins big in the south, but Obama wins big in both the Midwest and West. This would point to the idea that Palin made a lot of the already red states much redder, but elsewhere is not having that big of an impact since the numbers are basically right where it all was before the conventions.
Except now, we have McCain being branded a liar by the MSM.
September 14, 2008 4:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
OK those are more positive than not, but I still think it's bullshit.
How many AA voters did they poll in the South?
September 14, 2008 4:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
I wouldn't worry to much about the south in general. IMO I say Screw FL, the only 2 states that Obama has a chance in that are part of the south is NC and VA, and its really just VA that we got to focus on. IMO the states the real battle ground states this election are OH,CO,VA. If Obama wins any of those three he won the election.
September 14, 2008 4:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
I guess we'll see, won't we.
September 14, 2008 4:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't think the numbers reflect how the election will unfold. But there was a narrative (and the media will create a narrative based on the polls) that McCain was passing Obama by, and from a lot of the gnashing of teeth on these threads and elsewhere, a number of pro-Obama people were screaming for him to do something different.
I just think the polls show that Palin did nothing in the long run for McCain, nor has his "reformer" bit done him much good either. And in order to get that he had to lie, Palin had to lie, and Obama now stands on the high ground.
September 14, 2008 4:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
O I totally agree with your comment.
September 14, 2008 4:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
I just saw Tina Fey on SNL, if you haven't you must- It's absolutely spot on and B.R.I.Liant.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bjxBOUFLvM
Take a look, funny and poignant. Great Talent.
September 14, 2008 4:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
It was great! Wish she's gotten some of that lip smack in though.
"I can see Russia from my house!" Classic.
September 14, 2008 5:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
IT was awesome. I loved all the flirting - I loved that she brought up the family that we can't talk about while Sarah drags them around like an entourage -
September 14, 2008 6:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Only thing is I have to say that Lil Wayne was truly awesome on SNL last night, too.
Cause I bet nobody else will.
I'm liking what Snoop started and I love what Lil Wayne did with it.
September 14, 2008 7:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Here's the thing that constantly amazes me about comments boards - good things happen and everyone finds reasons for why they aren't good enough.
Me, I'm grateful for small miracles.
The media calling McLame and Palin liars is a fucking miracle after the last 7,8 years.
Anyone who can't see that -
September 14, 2008 4:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Of course it's a big deal. Once McCain gets labeled a liar, its always a liar. It aso makes it easier for the McSame label to stick as the public generally believe Bush lied.
September 14, 2008 4:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
But he's not being labeled a liar. I see things like "incorrectly stated" and "partial truths" and "misspoke" or headlines and questioning addressing the lies - not the liar. I appreciate Josh et al regularly using the words "lie", "lying" and "liar".
September 14, 2008 5:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
I loved your reader's post - that Anti-Sarah rally was just amazing.
September 14, 2008 6:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks. Maybe more Alaskans will be encouraged to speak out.
September 14, 2008 10:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Right on. McCain push his luck too far and now he's trapped in a very difficult spot. Obama can hit him and Palin hard by calling them liars and discredit them all the way to November. They can't just accept they lied and try to move on and if they go on with their lies (what probably they will, according to their campaign) the mess they'll get in will be bigger and deeper.
Things get worst before they get better. This week wasn't the best for Obama, but the outcome maybe has given him the biggest opening he ever had so far. Now is for him to seize the moment and to do it wisely.
September 14, 2008 5:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Always. And thank the gods we got it over with now.
It's still early. Now isn't the time for Obama to go for the final sprint - that comes during the last lap. And we aren't there yet.
:)
September 14, 2008 5:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is not a sprint race, this is a marathon.
Obama knows this and that's his strategy.
September 14, 2008 5:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
I know - but even marathoners save some energy for that last lap.
And we're not to the last lap yet. That's late October. ;)
September 14, 2008 5:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
You know, one of the country with a strong tradition (and Olympic success) for marathon and long distance athletics is Kenya. Maybe that understanding to this kind of races (not just in sport, but in life) is part of his heritage. He's been on this thing for almost two years and he knows for sure that it's not necessary to be first all the time but only at the time that really matters: at the finish line.
The finish line here it's November 4th.
September 14, 2008 5:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
I see parallels with an old Wall Street adage of caution: A lot of people have lost a lot of money by being right too early.
September 14, 2008 6:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
McCain's purest lies involves Palin. Obama himself needs to punch in his own weight class, but at least part of the 527 counteroffensive needs to stay focused on the Palin phenomenon until it is blunted into wingnut-only support. If the media turns around on what McCain has said about Palin, that takes them both down back into mortal territory. That should give Obama a little breathing room in the debates, hopefully provoking a few unwise shots from McCain. That should about do it. But it all hinges on the media grabbing onto the 'McCain putting one over on us about Palin' meme. This Rove comment will do a lot toward that, or should.
September 14, 2008 5:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Co-sign!
September 14, 2008 5:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think what Rove may have simply implying is that McCain went too far so that the lying itself becomes the story. The result is articles like this at CNN:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/13/palin.iraq/index.html
September 14, 2008 5:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
God that makes so much sense, acamus. I think you're dead right about what he meant.
September 14, 2008 5:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm not trying to make this personal, I'm just a bit confused as to why you think it's intellectually dishonest. Intellectual dishonesty means that you've taken inconsistent positions that expose your real motivation. I don't think I've taken any position inconsistent with the low-information (or as I've now corrected it, thanks to some help, the "uninformed voter") theory, and I certainly don't have some hidden agenda. So I don't know what you mean.
(For the record, I think my education makes me better able to discuss political issues than my high school classmates who spent their 20s smoking pot and making hoagies. If mean that my position is a little condescending, it is, but it's not dishonest.)
September 14, 2008 6:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
eze - I wasn't aware that intellectual dishonesty had that narrow a definition.
I consider it intellectually dishonest to try to hang an argument on something that is basically a fiction and that no one is in agreement as to what it means, even.
If that isn't an intellectually dishonest argument, then I'll figure out something else to call it.
September 14, 2008 6:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
By going on Fox News and saying that the McCain campaign has gone too far, Rove is advising them to dial it back.
From the ham fisted way that the McCain camp has been doing things, it might be that Rove is out of the loop and this is his way of pulling them up.
September 14, 2008 6:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
He might be telling it like he sees it. He had it handed to him in the midterms.
September 14, 2008 6:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
Good point.
September 14, 2008 6:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
LOL!
No shit. I love you for that comment.
September 14, 2008 6:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Everyone remember the outrageous shit Rove was saying right up until the election was over and the Repugs lost BIG? And they were really pissed at Rove?
Remember?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!
September 14, 2008 6:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
And Cindy McCain's take, said at a fundraiser:
"In spite of what you see …in the newspapers, and on shows like The View — I don't know if any of you saw The View yesterday, they picked our bones clean — in spite of what you see, that's not what the American people are saying and what they are believing."
Yeah that dang newspapers are saying things like McCain and Palin lie. Bad bad press. And who does The View think they are?
September 14, 2008 6:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
acamus - I want to see Cindy try to take on Oprah.
LOL!
September 14, 2008 7:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'd watch it.
September 14, 2008 7:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Like Cindy, from within the walls of her 9+ houses, has any idea what the American people are saying or what they are believing. Maybe she asked one of her many servants? "Yes, Mrs. McCain....Of course, Mrs. McCain..."
September 14, 2008 7:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
In her drugged up stupor.
September 15, 2008 12:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
Oh my god. You liberal dems are pathetic! Your guy (the Messiah) Barry Obama. That was his name until he decided he could advance his political career amongst all the america haters with a muslim name. Where are the lawyers digging into Barry's past dealings. How bout the church he attended for 20 YEARS and claims he didnt hear reverse discrimination remarks! If the left feels Palin is a no-nothing,soccer mom, mayor of a small town then why are they why is Barry O spending All his time Attacking her? You all cant understand why women would be attracted to Palina and her beliefs? Maybe it's how 90% of African Americans are in the tank for Obama for no other reason than he's black. Oops did I say that.
September 14, 2008 7:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hey, everybody! There's a new troll in town...
September 14, 2008 7:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Why do you care who Obama attacks if it doesn't mean anything?
And if you are so fucking convinced of what you say - why do you bother to show up here and make a jackass of yourself?
September 14, 2008 7:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Douche: It's "Palin", not "Palina".
September 14, 2008 11:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Arizona also sucks. Lived there, done that, got the hell out.
September 15, 2008 12:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
Rove is lying simply to keep the "I'm just an unofficial, casual adviser to the campaign" lie going.
believe they are breaking some FEC rules with the current arrangement, possibly playing games with money
he's also pulling a McCain in that he makes this statement the very week some of the campaign's closest friends (media) had to call them out for lies - a way to maintain credibility
but this is just ol turdblossom clumsily keeping his fingerprints off
September 14, 2008 7:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Nice language, and you eat with that mouth? Obviously, your a little freaked out about the polls not going in your direction. Take a deep breath and put the gun and the pills down! Relax
September 14, 2008 7:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Actually, your presence here speaks volumes about what you are trying to get us to believe.
I'll see those polls, and I'll raise you - what do you have in your hand? Polls. I have: 11,500,000 new registered Democratic voters; $66 million Obama raised in August; the over 600,000 registered Repug voters the GOP has lost.
I win, motherfucker. ;) (I did that just for you.)
September 14, 2008 7:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hey, man. That's no way of treating a lady.
You better get a nice cup of STFU!, would you?
September 14, 2008 7:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
The two-week honeymoon is over, douche.
"Barry" is climbing back in the polls. Oops! He did it again!
September 14, 2008 11:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Don't be fooled when Turdblossom says things like this to throw people off his scent! He's still The Man Behind the Curtain.
September 14, 2008 7:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
I really don't think so, parisblues.
And I think 2006 showed us that Rove isn't really a Man Behind the Curtain.
He's trying to psych us out with that casual statement that yeah, he works for the McLame Campaign.
He knows he inspires terror in liberals and I really think it's time to put that to rest.
There's nothing to be afraid of. ;)
September 14, 2008 7:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
So HTX, do you really think Turdblossom is out of he loop? I tend to assume that -- no matter who they're working for 00 the commanders of the campaign for a Permanent Republican Majority keep each other informed of their troop movements.
September 14, 2008 10:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
You have got to see this video about doctors expressing concern for McCain health.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/9/14/1447/28754/449/598558
September 14, 2008 7:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'll be laughing and thinking of your potty mouth in November when it bye bye to Barry Hussein Obama. The rest of America doesnt share your hatred of this country. You belong seated next to the rest of hacks on MSNBC.
September 14, 2008 7:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
God you are sooooo2004.
I vote we ignore - sorry I fed it.
September 14, 2008 7:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hate country: 50%
Don't hate country: 50%
Margin of error: 0%
September 14, 2008 7:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Nah. We just hate douches like you.
September 14, 2008 11:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
And he has really gone to far...Even to the point of the his Military Honor...this is getting really scary...
Army Times
Has Sen. John McCain renounced his longtime antagonism toward the Army’s Future Combat Systems?
On Sept. 8, the Republican presidential candidate told a rally crowd in Lee’s Summit, Mo., about an Obama video message to a liberal advocacy group.
“He promised them he would, quote, ‘slow our development of Future Combat Systems,’” McCain said, according to wire reports. “This is not a time to slow our development of Future Combat Systems.”
Flashback to July, however, when his campaign furnished McCain’s economic plan to The Washington Post, declaring that “there are lots of procurements — Airborne Laser, [C-17] Globemaster, Future Combat System [sic] — that should be ended and the entire Pentagon budget should be scrubbed.”
(sip)
McCain’s interpretation of Obama’s position is typical of the way in which the Republicans have twisted Democratic views in order to undercut their opponents and at the same time obscure the past positions of the Republicans,” Thompson said. “Future Combat Systems is the centerpiece of Army modernization. However, McCain has been more critical of it than anyone else in the chamber. Obama has been much more detailed and thoughtful in his comments about future military investment than McCain’s very superficial statements.”
Officials with the McCain campaign did not return phone calls and emails requesting clarification.
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2008/09/defense_mccain_FCS_091208/
September 14, 2008 7:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Man, when a military publication, the Army Times, is questioning McCain's honesty and integrity you know it's really gotten bad.
September 14, 2008 8:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
I like Sullivan's take on McCain-as-Rove and the possible effects on discourse in this country for the long term if McCain wins:
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/09/why-mccain-is-n.html
September 14, 2008 7:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think there are a number of those in the media that see it this way, more or less, and unlike 2004, McCain has seen a small short-term benefit but will experience a long-term problem.
September 14, 2008 7:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Karl Rove is upset is because McCain is such a blundering
September 14, 2008 7:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
idiot.
Sorry, left off the last word.
September 14, 2008 7:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Darn it, here is the link again
September 14, 2008 7:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
You could be right. It's hard to know exactly. But I do recall clearly how very pissed off at Karl Rove the Congressional Republicans were after the '06 election.
It's hard for me to think Rove has any good intentions toward McLame for whatever reason.
That's fine with me - I just wish Rove would dissolve into a puddle of sticky noxious liquid that we could hose off the space where he used to be standing.
September 14, 2008 8:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
The pot calling the kettle black....
September 14, 2008 8:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't see why Dems just don't tell it like "it is"...that McCain was quietly retired early from the Navy because other POWs testified that he was aiding & abetting the enemy while in custody...or that he crashed five Navy planes and the hushed-up evidence shows he was FUI on three of those times...or that he cheated on his wife with Barbra Bush as his price to get the Bush family backing for his White House run.
My Dad always said, "What if they gave a war and only one side came?". That's what's going on right now. The GOP is at war and the Dems have decided not to show up. Under this scenario the army that stays home forfeits the win.
September 14, 2008 8:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
I completely agree..if they can find someone to say it's true. "McCain was a traitor during the war. He cheated on his crippled wife. He skated after the Keating five investigation." The Dems are going to have to get down and dirty. If they're unwilling, they're going to lose.
September 14, 2008 8:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is probably another deception from Karl Rove, and very suspicious one, he's probably doing that to disavow himself from their campaign, it reminds me of the time when he bugged his own office, and like saying don't look at me look over there..!
He's gotta do like a public press release so we can believe, these guys working for McBLt earned their wings with Rove.
September 14, 2008 8:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
And the McCain campaign spokesman, Brian Rogers, said they weren't that concerned about what the media might report. They are in the race to win it.
So, in effect, they can lie and distort all they want if it will help them win. They don't care if you report it or if I report it. They have no fear of the truth. They can spin it to their own satisfaction. No one can hold them responsible. So, if you don't like it, too bad! You can stuff it!
September 14, 2008 8:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
McCain does not appeal to Democrats with these ads. They are raw meat for Republicans. His goal is to get them so excited that they'll show up to vote in greater numbers than Democrats are going to show for Obama.
McCain expects to get the same volume of voters that Bush got against Kerry. The Republicans don't listen to Democrats, they only listen to Republicans.
Almost completely ignored are the Democrats who are paying attention to the controversy. The combination of Gov. Palin, who uses questionable tactics to replace the old boy network with her network and promises conservative Christian reform in Washington DC, and the similarities between these ads and key phrases in the previous two presidential battles like "invented the internet" and Swift Boat, may be getting through to Dem voters.
I don't sense a strong reaction among Democrats. It has raised my hackles, but I only have one vote to give to the correct ticket.
If I were Obama, I would organize spreading the word according to McCain to Democrats, and tell 'em what these ads to provoke action from Republicans for McCain.
September 14, 2008 8:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's time the people start being responsible for their votes. Might make a good ad...*even Rove says McCain is outright lying, are you going to fall for it?*
I have seen signs of the media waking up a bit but we on the ground need to keep talking to everyone we know about the issues.
50 days. Get registered.
September 14, 2008 8:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well that's going to be a good trick. The Democrats have registered 11,000,000 new Democratic voters. The GOP has lost over 600,000 registered Repug voters.
He can fire up that 25% all he wants, it's never going to get him elected.
September 14, 2008 8:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
I wonder why no seems to have pointed out that the big difference between Obama and McCain is that Obama was patriotic enough to wear a flag pin during his acceptance speech and McCain hates America so much he didn't wear a flag pin during his.
September 14, 2008 8:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Rove is trying to distance himself from th McCain campaign.
He is "Advising" the campaign, and his protege's are running the campaign, and their tactics are clearly his, and he know it's a loser.
He is trying to get out in front, in order to make a clear distinction (true or not, doesn't matter) that he is not associated with this stinkin' piece'o'crap they call the McCain campaign. He is creating his own version of history/reality so that in four years, when it is time to get money from another campaign, he can point to articles that show he was always against these tactics.
They are starting to turn against each other.
September 14, 2008 8:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think you're right, but they aren't just now turning on each other.
They started that in '06.
;)
September 14, 2008 8:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080915/ap_on_el_pr/campaigns_negativity
Here's the AP version of the headline: "Republicans fault both campaigns for negative tone."
The new spin is, of course, that Obama is equally guilty so McCain can lie and distort all he wants.
September 14, 2008 8:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Its utterly unbelievable that they are trying to fault Obama for the tone of there campaign. Seems to me that they dont want Obama to go on the offensive so they will try and call a "truce."
September 14, 2008 9:01 PM | Reply | Permalink