Yeah, that summation is pretty much where I stand.

The surprise of the night was that McCain was able to seize the offensive and frame the foreign policy debate on his own terms without looking like he was desperate. Indeed, if anything, the dynamic shifted a bit back in McCain's direction.

Greg:

I think you can have your opinion and I respect that. I can also see, from the tone and the semantics why McCain seemed vehement and Obama seemed on his toes. But I cannot understand how McCain gets the upperhand?

The format helped Obama reason, against McCain's rage. Obama offerred a serious and thoughtful candidacy for serious time and Obama extremely looked knowledgable on every FP issue.

Also, how do you explain this?

Forty percent of uncommitted voters who watched the debate tonight thought Barack Obama was the winner. Twenty-two percent thought John McCain won. Thirty-eight percent saw it as a draw.

i think that line that the iraq war didnt start in 2007 is getting a ton of play and undercuts mccain surge points. All in all, it was a good debate for the country. Two very different visions of the world. Pick one

I totally disagree wtih Greg assesment. I think you've been listening to too much Republican spin.

Go back and re-watch the debate. Obama held is own on foreign policy and he framed the argument on the way ordinary people can understand. Stop this nonsense about McCain been strong on foreign policy.

My overall take on how the debate went:

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/09/my-overall-impression-on-how-t.php

So if Obama won the undecided voters, why has he lost? Can you please explain.

Am I missing something?

CNN POLL:
Obama wins debate, 51-38.
David Gergen "Can't emphasize enough how important these poll numbers are".

In other words, sorry pundits, it's not you who matter. It's the lil people answering the phones which will drive the story, regardless of how you couch it. This is a bad night for McCain.

"You know, we spent $3 million to study the DNA of bears in Montana. I don't know if that was a criminal issue or a paternal issue, but the fact is that it was $3 million of our taxpayers' money."

All I could think was: "OMG! He just left himself
wide-open re. all of Palin's wild earmarks
(some of which McCain already specifically criticized!)
like the millions she got for crab mating habits"

I think you are wrong, Greg.

This was Kennedy-Nixon all over again:

1.McCain looked ANGRY.

2.Obama held his own on a stage with someone who is far more experienced than him.

I just wish Obama brought up the GI Bill. Still, I see the argument against doing that because it just pushes the veteran topic more and gets McCain to talk about his service. I noticed that the reactions during his talk about military service/veterans were pretty lukewarm. Is that story getting overused?

Here's what happened - McCain played to his base, Obama played towards getting the independents. That's what it boils down to here - McCain championing Iraq is a loser for independents, either did his body language or aggressiveness or condensation.

yes. just like kennedy/nixon. co-sign

I don't know...is "on the offensive"
the same thing as just plain offensive?

I mean, no doubt, McCain was ruder...
which I think plays better with pundits
than undecided voters.

I honestly disagree. McCain attacked more because he's currently losing (and probably losing badly). But Obama got more than his share of hits in, and he didn't miss many opportunities to needle McCain, or tie him to Bush. He was magnanimous where he needed to be, and he challenged McCain where appropriate.

The one moment that stuck out to me that showed just who was in charge of the room was when McCain and Obama got bogged down in the Iran part of the debate, and Lehrer was trying to move on while McCain basically wouldn't stop talking and Obama wanted to get involved, it was Obama that allowed the debate to move forward. He basically gave Lehrer the go ahead, and was the bigger man there.

I'll buy that this was a "tie" in debate terms, but there's no way that you can convince me that McCain held the upper hand during this. Especially since this was his format. McCain needed to win this round. Obama met expectations, which means that in the eyes of the American people, OBAMA HAS NOW PASSED THE COMMANDER AND CHIEF TEST.

Among us strong supporters who are rating the debate on the fact Obama didn't attack enough, this wasn't the debate to please us- those of us who are voting Obama always.

It's clear Obama went in to establish his knowledge and insight on foriegn policy, many in the middle will rank Obama fully qualified to be the C-in-C and that was the purpose.

Biden can unleash all the attacks on McCain and she can defend McLame. The Objective of the night was not to bully (as McLame did), but look intelligence, thoughtful and in control. Obama did what he came out to accomplish.

Gergen is making the point that it was basically a tie, and that means in terms of victory in November, McCain lost.

It bothered me, that late in the debate around 10:20 PM EST, I caught McCain bulldozing a point he was making over the voice of Lehrer or Obama. I was also uncomfortable by the hitches I heard in Obama's voice as he marshalled facts in his mind while answering a foreign policy question. I have to research more to get a better feeling for the debate as a whole.

And at what point does name-dropping places
you've been, cross the line from "experience"
to "Worst Travel Channel Re-run EVER!" ?

I thought Obama was very strong. He didn't let mcShame hog the time. He interrupted as needed. But he didn't go for the jugular either - which I see as a plus.

Obama went in as a winner. He's on the crest of a wave of support. No one who supports him would have been disappointed.

mcShame, on the other hand, was often sneering as Obama spoke. If Obama disagreed while mcShame spoke, he smiled or shook his head or said no. But he never sneered.

Obama has class. I thoought he held his own.. and thus comes out ahead, just as he went in.

How stupid do you think mcShame looked to be defending his Trophy VP as a maverick? Two of them running amok!

I love that poll number that gives Obama the advantage!

In the CNN poll, McCain won by a slim margin with men, and Obama won by a huge margin with women.

Greg, honestly, come on...

Even Halperin says that Obama won... Halperin!

Obviously you saw a very different debate than many of us did tonight.

Something to confess... I hate watching debates.

I was a debater in high school, but I hate them. I get so nervous for my side that I want to puke.

You say "indecided,"
I say "undecided..."
but my point was that
being rude seems to stir the pundits
but TURNS OFF most undecideds...

Final numbers in that CBS poll of uncommitteds:

Thirty-nine percent of uncommitted voters who watched the debate tonight thought Barack Obama was the winner. Twenty-five percent thought John McCain won. Thirty-six percent saw it as a draw.

Forty-six percent of uncommitted voters said their opinion of Obama got better tonight. Thirty-one percent said their opinion of McCain got better.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/09/26/politics/horserace/entry4482028.shtml

I missed the first half of the debate. The second half that I watched--foreign policy--seemed like Obama comfortably held his own and I would call the second half a tie. If the next two debates are on Obama's turf--the economy--McCain's probably going to be crapping his Depends for the next two weeks.

Maybe he can suspend his campaign again.

I agree with David Gergen on CNN. He indicated that with Obama up in the polls, McCain needed a huge win tonight to gather steam for his campaign. He did not accomplish this regardless of which candidate you say won the debate. Obama held his own with a topic that was supposed to be McCain's strong suit. Therefore, McCain did not get the win he needed. Personally, I felt Obama won, but felt McCain did very well. Just not good enough.

Just heard a poll where 46% felt their opinion of Obama improved after tonights debate. Not good for McCain.

He did great! I agree. You've said it well!

Ann,everyone except Chris Matthews now agreeing Obama won. Even Pat Buchanan who began declaring a big winner softened 5 minutes ago and called it a small win, but he didn't seem to mean it.

Bottom line: The wind is at Obama's back.

(and so are we)

16% margin of error

I don't think McCain had the upper hand at any time. He likely held his own in that he was able to reinforce the stereotype of himself as the "maverick." Oddly, there are people still willing to vote for a stereotype.

Obama demonstrated clarity and depth in his knowledge and the ability to communicate such. Further, he demonstrated statesmanship and the temperament of a leader -- attributes undecideds were looking for.

I doubt he will go for McCain's jugular in subsequent debates. He will differentiate himself in stark terms, but it simply isn't in him to skewer his opponent. This works to Obama's advantage in that it forces McCain to be civil which is not where he's comfortable. As such, Obama dictates the tone of the debate and ultimately enjoys the upper hand.

"He just doesn't get it."

That's gonna stick to Obama like glue. It was definitely the equivalent of Reagan's "there you go again."

Freep these polls!!!!

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/9/26/224559/273/297/611947

Incuding CNN, Drudge, Politico, MSNBC polls, etc

A point here.

We are high info voters. Imagine, if you will, you are a low info voter. You just now listened to Obama "off the script" for the first time.

What's the take away? My low info family is _shocked_ how smart and strong Obama is. My phone is buzzing and emails are flying. Nothing I said over the past year has done shit to move them. This debate did.

This was NOT Obama vs McCain. This was an audition for Obama. He just won the election.

Greg,

Both CBS and CNN are reporting that their independent voter panels think that Obama won the debate. Most talking heads, with the exception of Buchanan and a few other conservatives, think it was a draw. Even Halperin thinks Obama won.

So how come you think McCain won? Since we can be fairly sure that Hillary did not knock McCain off, shave her head and put on a Brooks Brothers suit, but sometimes it seems like there is a corner of your mind where you harbor a secret hope that she did.

Stupid headline. The latter point is correct.

Please stop writing these "X but Y" headlines!
Seems like some overeagerness for nuance, to the point it muddles the conclusion: Its a draw.

The only pole I've seen that has McCain beating Obama is Drudge.

Bad news for McCain!

I think that Obama did a good job keeping up with McCain in the foreign policy. Read more:

http://wannabeprofessor.wordpress.com/2008/09/27/the-first-presidential-debate/

jonnydomestik

I'm always amazed by the call for zingers from Obama. He just doesn't operate that way. His barbs take a about a second to resonate and then it hits you that he just landed a left hook and his opponent took it to the chin - singing songs about bombing Iran was a classic.

Because Obama was essentially auditioning for independents he knows he could not be too . . . you know, "uppity," and played it just right.

(P.S. Don't jump on me for that last line. I'm a bi-racial trial attorney and I've walked in Obama's shoes my entire life including being beat up in 5th grade for me thinking I was the smartest kid in the class - which I was. This election means the world to me.)

"But when it segued into foreign policy, there's little question that McCain projected more authority and confidence"

Greg once again is full of crap. There is more than a question about what you assert, it is simply wrong.

I have to admit two things while watching the debate:

1. I missed Clinton (although I now find her too divisive and manipulative for my taste): articulate, sharp, analytical, cogent and aggressive all at once.

2. I did disagree with Obama when he first insisted that he would meet with the Iranian president as without precondition. And I thought his remark at that time would come back to haunt him. The exchanges between him and McCain tonight suggest that he needs to come up with a more forceful defense.

One more thing.As much as I was pissed off during the primaries: Thank you Hillary! I honestly think that BO is a better debater as a result of all that shit.

If you scored this like a high school debating team debate, McCain had a narrow victory. He was more in command of the details of foreign policy. His comments about his experience versus Obama's lack of experience scored points.

However, this was not that kind of debate. Each candidate had different challenges and different goals going into the debate. McCain actually scored the biggest points for himself by not pulling another gimmicky ploy to steal headlines (as I thought he might). The voters, and especially the media, are getting sick of that. He didn't do it, so it helps to restore his image as being stable and reliable.

On the other hand, Obama also scored where he needed to. He was confident. He didn't look overmatched by a much more experienced opponent. On the zingers, he gave as good as he got. This is going to help some voters who needed to see that Obama can be tough and presidential -- he can't be pushed around. There are a lot of undecided white, blue-collar men who were looking for exactly that.

Also, don't overlook the visuals. (This is television, remember?). Obama looked much better. When the camera showed the candidate who was not speaking, Obama was taking notes, looking thoughtful, at ease. McCain looked dreadful. While Obama spoke he was jittery and nervous. More than a few times it looked like he couldn't help himself from nervous laughter that seemed to say, "Oh boy, how am I going to answer that?" Obama was Kennedy and McCain was Nixon with a four o'clock shadow, if you compare it to the 1962 debates.

Advantage: Obama.

I was glad to see that Obama was able to end off by pointing out how McCain sees everything in the world through the viewpoint of Iraq, while Obama stressed a global view with the intention of restoring the US of A's reputation around the world.

McCain did not respond much at all to this point. This is a very strong point for Obama.

I would add a reminder about the whole Spain thing. That seemingly small thing is not really getting talked about.

Many, many, many viewers probably hadn't heard anything about that. And when Obama brought it up, McCain said nothing to repudiate it. I don't genuinely think McCain would hesitate to meet with Zapatero (even though his campaign at one point suggested that in a desperate effort to avoid McCain seeming completely ignorant). But I betcha quite a few people now believe he would. And that's just nuts.

Missed Obamatunities:

A) Not adding that many corporations
have such great tax guys that they literally
pay NO tax (or even get a 'rebate'!!!)

B) Not turning McCain's "bear DNA" story around,
on him, and pointing out that McCain chose a VP
candidate who is responsible for many and similar
earmarks re. crab mating habits, seal DNA, etc.

C) Letting McCain off easy on the Pakistan thing:
Obama should've said "You've misrepresented me
100 times on this...are you saying that you would
NOT go get bin Laden if Pakistan refused to help?"
(Hell, Lehrer was BEGGING them to take each other on!)

Initial polls show that Obama won the debate handily.

Greg, how can McCain show "confidence" when all of his foreign policy decisions have been proven in fact to be wrong?

What kind of confidence is that?

Also, Obama agreeing with McCain on certain things as a weakness is a non-starter. Some things are just common sense. Sure, McCain came out on top of these things debate-wise because he was asked first, but there are certain things that no one is going to be the polar opposite of. Can't do it.

One more thing: Obama is not a flaming populist liberal. This is as forceful/angry as he is going to be. Don't make him something he is not. If he cannot win this way, he will not win. For his supporters: watch his performance tonight and be glad this is your man. He is doing it all right.

Black people are not allowed to be flaming populist liberals in our society.

Those are the rules.

Just gotta say:
Many supporters of Obama want him to suddenly transform himself into Huey Long, or something. That ain' t gonna happen, and it shouldn't. I hate to be a starfucker here, but damn, he is doing it on his own, and I am proud of him, win or lose. The Clintons bailed on him, as has everybody in the Democratic machine. So once again, the black man has to do it for himself, which he is...

Love, A Very White Man

As I watched the debate, I thought it was a draw, which, given Obama's "strategy" of needing to appear presidential, is a win for Obama.

I also thought McCain was much better than I was expecting, given his "erratic" behavior of the last month.

My one caveat with Obama: He kept saying "my point is...." "I have three points...." He should just say it without needing to explain its a "point".

The aftermath of this debate was actually a lot more decisive that the pundits made it out to be.

You have a choice, a Vietnam Redux – where Americans give more, more, more to “the mother land” in exchange for nothing but death, war and blood shed, oh and more debt in the same Vietnam War era BS, or, Americans invest in the truth and in themselves first again. It's our country - NOT McCain's country. McCain is all about the state of war.

The drum beat fom pundits, such as Chris Mathews and Pat Buchannan, that Obama didn't connect with ordinary voters seems really odd to me. I don't see them holding McCain to that same standard. I saw nothing in McCain's performance that would show that he was connected to the people in middle America that are hurtin.

Nevertheless, because Obama is who is, smart and steady, the pundits will always hit the "elite" button until Obama delivers that YouTube moment that connects him (in pundits minds) to the voters. I too am waiting for that moment and its an very easy one for Obama to make in either of the next two debates. He did it at the Convention and he needs to reprise a few of those themes. He needs to look into the camera and talk staight to the American people and repeat what he has said before:

"I will never forget where I came from. I am born of the American Dream and I love this country to much to let that Dream slip away for you or your children. I am standing here today because of that Dream. Only in America could the son of a white women from Kansas and a black man from Kenya grow up to be President. I was raised on strong midwestern values by a single mother and my grandparents who taught me to love my neighbor as myself. I will never forget where I came from or what I'm fighting for - you."

Then pivot and attack the failed Bush/McCain policies of the last 8 years that threaten to destroy those dreams. Point out that it is far riskier to double down on failure than it is to raise your hand for change.

I watch Buchannan keep repeating that "On points McCain won the debate" like there is a score card for these things and at the end McCain had 42 points to Obama 39 . Thats just not how most people watch these things. They try to get a feel for each man. They try to determine which one is the stronger, more confident, more intelligent, whatever. Body language is just as important as what comes out of their mouths and on the body language front Barack kicked his butt. Barack came accross as in control and confident while McCain refused to ever look at him. McCain often looked as if he was struggling to relax.

The polls will tell us who won in a few days but my money says Barack won this one.

One more note I watched the debate on CNN and really paid attention to the meters at the bottom of the screen. During the second half of the debate the reactions to what Barack was saying was consistantly far more positive that what McCain said.

The polls are in, and my "doom and gloom" prediction of last night all came true. Obama lost the elction last night. But he was so nicE!!
So polite!!!
I still can't figure out who he supports in the elction. "John is right, I am wrong" or whatever his mantra was. Well 40 days to sell the house and move to another country.

We all must keep in mind when viewing the Republican's side of the Debate, they take Obama's positive and try to turn them into a negative. That is stright from the Rove Play book.

The Obama campaign montra should be that it's too risky to double down on failure. The failed philosophy of trickle down economics and that all regulation is bad. John McCain, a well known risk taker who admits that he is a huge gamble that likes to make quick "bold" decisions, wants to double down on the failed policies of the last 8 years and we can't afford that. McCain likes to take risks without any back-up plan. You wouldn't fly an airline without a co-pilot, but tht is exactly what he expects the U.S. to with him and his VP pick, him having met her only once for a few minutes decided to put her a heartbeat away from the nuclear button.

Well it seems the clip that made the "highlight reel" from Obama is the "You were wrong" clip.

That's the one cable news is running.