Compare And Contrast: Obama Calls For Calm; McCain Attacks And Blames Obama
Now that the bailout has failed in the House, it's worth contrasting the immediate responses from the campaigns.
In Colorado today, Obama called for calm and predicted ultimate success. Here's what he said (before MSNBC cut away)...
"It's important for the American public and the markets to stay calm, because things are never smooth in Congress, and to understand that it will get better...We are going to make sure that an emergency package is put together, because it is required for us to stabilize the markets..."So I'm confident that we are going to get there, but it's going to be a little rocky. It's sort of like flying into Denver -- you know you're going to land, it's not always fun going over those mountains."
By contrast, the McCain campaign statement hailed McCain's own Herculean efforts on behalf of the bailout and attacked Obama for his failure to rise to McCain's heights of heroism and self-sacrifice:
"From the minute John McCain suspended his campaign and arrived in Washington to address this crisis, he was attacked by the Democratic leadership: Senators Obama and Reid, Speaker Pelosi and others. Their partisan attacks were an effort to gain political advantage during a national economic crisis. By doing so, they put at risk the homes, livelihoods and savings of millions of American families."Barack Obama failed to lead, phoned it in, attacked John McCain, and refused to even say if he supported the final bill.
"Just before the vote, when the outcome was still in doubt, Speaker Pelosi gave a strongly worded partisan speech and poisoned the outcome.
"This bill failed because Barack Obama and the Democrats put politics ahead of country."
The anger and frustration coming out of the McCain campaign over the massive failure of the suspension stunt is very palpable today, and has a real whiff of tantrum about it. Really, it's so reassuring to see the McCain campaign's typical high-mindedness and keen sense of priorities on display at such a critical moment of national need.















Rep. Frank On GOP: ‘Because Somebody Hurt Their Feelings, They Decide To Punish The Country’»
As soon as the bailout proposal failed in the House, Republican lawmakers began blaming House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) for its defeat. In a press conference, the GOP leadership faulted Pelosi for giving a “partisan” speech prior to the vote. In the subsequent Democratic press conference, Rep. Barney Frank (D-MA) responded to their absurd charge:
Here’s the story. There’s a terrible crisis affecting the American economy. We have come together on a bill to alleviate the crisis. And because somebody hurt their feelings, they decide to punish the country. I mean, I would not have imputed that degree of pettiness and hypersensitivity.
We also have — as the leader will tell you, who’s been working with them — don’t believe they had the votes, and I believe they’re covering up the embarrassment of not having the votes. But think about this. Somebody hurt my feelings, so I will punish the country. That’s hardly plausible. And there are 12 Republican members who were ready to stand up for the economic interest of America, but not if anybody insulted them.
I’ll make an offer. Give me those 12 people’s names and I will go talk uncharacteristically nicely to them and tell them what wonderful people they are and maybe they’ll now think about the country.
September 29, 2008 4:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Way to go Barney!
September 29, 2008 4:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Maybe we can all send them valentines to make them feel better.
September 29, 2008 4:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
I love Barney Frank with all my heart and just below I was saying: Unleash Barney, he has to be hopping mad.
God I love him.
September 29, 2008 4:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Barney, you said it better than anyone!
House republicans, you fucking suck!
John McCain, your fucking stunt is backfiring and the USA will suffer for it!
September 29, 2008 4:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Did we expect anything less from the Superhero who singlehandedly prevented the Texas-sized meteor from slamming into earth?
Pitiful, shameless politicization of people's livelihoods.
September 29, 2008 5:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Barney's exactly who Obama should name treasury secretary after he's elected.
September 29, 2008 5:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
She just didn't show House Republicans the respect and deference they deserved.
September 29, 2008 4:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, since they decided to stupidly blame Pelosi, we've all read the speech! It will be widely read. And I just don't think there's anything in there to warrant "hurt feelings" (poor babies).
September 29, 2008 4:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Now that's my kind of sarcasm!
September 29, 2008 4:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Co-sign.
I love your sense of humor, Greg.
September 29, 2008 4:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
You know, reading what Obama just said did calm me down quite a bit. I hope it will others too. Thank you Senator for your reassurance. I needed that.
September 29, 2008 4:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am about ready for a president who understands that part of his job is to "set the tone," as they say.
September 29, 2008 4:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well this ain't going to do them any good - they threw a temper tantrum and the market closed 700 down.
September 29, 2008 4:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Beat the all time record by 92 pts., which was day after 911. Wow.
September 29, 2008 4:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
This reminds me of one the few poems I know (because i had to learn it while pledging):
September 29, 2008 4:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
The poet is Rudyard Kipling
September 29, 2008 4:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Joe Klein has a pretty good summary of McCain vs Obama in this mess, and Obama pretty much epitomizes Kipling's words.
September 29, 2008 4:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks so much.
September 29, 2008 4:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
If, by Rudyard Kipling. One of the first poems I memorized, too - after Joyce Kilmer's Tree.
For all Kipling's misogyny, he still nailed this one true.
Which presidential candidate does the poem make you think of?
September 29, 2008 4:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama. The first line automatically disqualifies McCain.
September 29, 2008 4:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Intrade knows.
September 29, 2008 4:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Joe Klein says "Obama":
McCain reprising the Grumpy Old Man act, Obama staying calm and leading by example
(I'm paraphrasing, of course).
September 29, 2008 4:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner
September 29, 2008 4:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Pardon me...I meant to include => McCain reminds me of the Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner...the one with the albatross around his neck.
September 29, 2008 4:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Would the albatross be Caribou Barbie (or as Blogger TBogg called her "Bible Spice")? There's an image!
September 29, 2008 5:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
McShame campaign: Lying and Crying. We're in the whining mode right now. Like yelling Fire in a Cinema! Drama Queen Craps Meltdown Mania!
Obama Campaign: Be adults. Be calm. We'll all pull together and get ourselves out of this.
September 29, 2008 4:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Amelie - yeah, I agree. It's the perfect, tone, too.
The Repugs threw a tantrum and so did McLame. Meanwhile, back in Denver, the president is reassuring everyone.
;)
September 29, 2008 4:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
But is anybody listening anymore? Is there any reason not to tune him out?
September 29, 2008 4:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
What?
Man questions like that don't compute. I have no idea what you mean - sorry.
September 29, 2008 5:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think jzap is confused: thought HusseinTenaX was referring to Bush, not Obama [who is in Denver and is acting presidential].
September 29, 2008 5:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes. I took "president" literally. D'Oh!
September 30, 2008 1:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
One guy is presidential. The other guy, not so much. Who would you rather have at the helm?
September 29, 2008 4:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
The contrast could not be sharper. Any fair-minded person is going to see that. No need anymore to argue about who is ready to lead. Just look at who is leading.
September 29, 2008 4:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'll credit mcShame with leading... off a cliff.
September 29, 2008 4:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's fine to use calming words. It's better to show strong leadership. If Obama wants to blow McDuck out of the water, he needs to DO something like get the dems who voted against it to vote for it.
McCain is a duck just waiting to be shot. He has nowhere to go.
September 29, 2008 4:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Er ..... he's not president - yet. And we DO have a President and a Presidential candidate who belong to the party in which 2/3 of the members voted AGAINST the bill that the President and their candidate wanted them to support. And this becomes Obama's responsibility to 'solve things' because ______???
And in stating WHY they oppose the bill, the House Reps say, in essence, "Nancy hurt our feelings"???? So far as I can tell, it isn't like there aren't any 'principles' or provisions they that they want considered in any bill but are missing in this one --- nothing to discuss that I can see.
It isn't Obama's job to get this mess straightened out --- it's his 'job' to get elected so we can have an administration that doesn't get us INTO these messes!! If he can do something helpful, that's fine -- but McCain's the one who voluntarily took on the task of 'saving the day,' (which is a stupid thing for any presidential candidate to do).
September 29, 2008 4:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
Heh, even better, get the repugs to vote for it.
September 29, 2008 5:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Katrina all over again.
September 29, 2008 4:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
As I've stated before, so far this is going as McCain planned it. It's his last horrah to look Presidential and make Obama look petty. The public doesn't matter...only winning does.
September 29, 2008 4:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm only going to say this once. It's revealing about you that you accede so much power to McCain. You think he planned the last two weeks?
Seriously? You give him, and his campaign, significant power, if you do.
September 29, 2008 4:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well but who is he playing to, Muad dib, if not the public?
That's who votes.
September 29, 2008 4:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
He's playing to himself and his base. He's under a misconception that his actions are necessary...they're not. He's still being a maverick and going alone on this thinking if he looks Presidential and can be seen as a deal maker, he'll have the election in his pocket.
September 29, 2008 4:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
If you try to lead and no one follows, what does that make you?
September 29, 2008 5:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
ROFLMAO!!!!
Where the hell is McLame going to find a fucking pocket now, dude?
Have you been asleep the last couple of weeks?
September 29, 2008 5:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Couldn't decide between horror and hurrah? It's probably some of both.
September 29, 2008 5:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Is the new marketing slogan, "a Teddy Roosevelt Republican," catching on anywhere or is this just one of many they are going to throw out in the hopes that one will stick?
September 29, 2008 4:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well it helps - I am not hyperventilating quite so much. He does have that effect and it's a very good one.
This has been another horrible day for McLame and the Repugs.
September 29, 2008 4:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Truly one for the ages....
mcShame belongs in the stocks! (the old fashioned type)
September 29, 2008 4:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Did anyone see the smack down that CNN's Freed Zekariah (i butchered his name) just put on McCain and Gov Plain just now? This is one time i wished this post enabled us to embed video. It was priceless.
September 29, 2008 4:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fareed - you're very close.
He's very smart. Jon has had him on any number of times and Maher -
September 29, 2008 4:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Can't wait till it's up somewhere!
September 29, 2008 4:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Take a stroll over to Free Republic and watch the freepers' orgasm as they claim credit for defeating this "socialist" bailout bill.
This was a hard vote, and the Dems were not going to bear the burden. Pelosi delivered more than half her caucus, but the Republicans were not up to the task.
The freepers are melting the switchboards the way they did to defeat immigration reform.
The Republicans dropped this one big time, from George W right on down.
September 29, 2008 4:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
The stages of grief start with "denial.'
September 29, 2008 4:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Just how does he look presidential?
September 29, 2008 4:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Who?
September 29, 2008 4:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
From the Obama campaign:
September 29, 2008 4:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
OK Folks:
Here is something to promulgate.
Now that we have a real crisis at hand, we are in a stock market meltdown, and "The Economy Is Cratering", this time for real:
Why hasn't John McCain immediately suspend his campaign, and rushed to Washington to help alleviate the national catastrophe.
He did it last week, and now that situation has gotten much worse, he is still campaigning.
Sure makes clear that last week all he was doing was trying to kill the debate.
September 29, 2008 4:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
He's still claiming victory! Like he did this morning!
September 29, 2008 4:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
I predicted this outcome in my last blogpost on Sunday although I was wrong about the timing;
I don’t think there is anyone who can predict how this bailout plan will affect the credit markets on Wall Street or on Main Street. The case for the bailout implies that without it the credit markets will seize up and precipitate a world wide recession if not a depression. No one is saying that the bailout will turn the economy around, it will just avert disaster.
The best case with the bailout is the economy will probably continue to drift sideways if not down, unemployment rising, energy prices remain high, housing still searching for a bottom and inflation surging. If the prospect of a bailout has “created its own weather” and the credit markets still seize up then it will obviously be a failure. Either way anybody who votes against the bailout will be able to paint it as a failure and a waste of taxpayer’s money and then run against it as the election approaches.
So I think we know how this will play out today. They want this to pass before the Asian markets open tonight. This afternoon most House Republicans and those Senate Republicans who are up for reelection will find a last minute objection to the bill and vote against it. Congressional Democrats will face the prospect of passing the bailout with minimal Republican support or letting it fail and risking a market crash. Neither McCain nor Obama will cast a vote.
So no matter what happens Congressional Democrats will be lashed to the stinking corrupt corpse of the Paulson/Bush Administration and McCain and the House Republicans will brand themselves as populist heroes for opposing the bailout fiasco.
How will Obama play this today? Will the majority of voters who apparently oppose the bailout take it out on Democrats in November? Or will they punish Republicans for playing political chicken with the world economy?
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/09/the-loselose-politics-of-the-b.php
That brings up what happened in "overtime" when they left the vote open for armtwisting and vote switching.
September 29, 2008 4:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Whether or not a majority of voters really is against the baillout ought to get more clear right quick.
You are free to spin your nice fantasy scenario about how it won't be that bad - but let's just posit another - it goes all the way down. It's 1929 on steroids.
Is everyone going to be happy with their political decisions then?
September 29, 2008 5:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Is McCain really a maverick, or is he just reckless and undisciplined?
One can tolerate his antics as a senator, but his style of "leadership" is not fit for the presidency.
We need a leader, not a gambler.
Seriously, forget Palin, can our country afford McCain as the leader of the free world?
John McCain: Not ready to lead.
September 29, 2008 4:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
Maverick = reckless and undisciplined.
September 29, 2008 4:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
Come on, show some sympathy for the devil, Keef.
September 29, 2008 5:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
very good!
September 29, 2008 6:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
I understand they're currently installing fainting couches along the walls of the Republican cloakroom because so many sensitive members of the Republican caucus are overwrought by the floor speeches of a Democratic member from San Francisco.
September 29, 2008 4:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Now they know how it feels watching a Republican Convention...
the babies
September 29, 2008 5:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
So McSame left the field, quit doing the "right thing," Country First, because Obama attacked him? What would he do if Putin, Kim Jong-il, Chavez, or Ahmadinejad attacks him? Would he just leave the field, saying, "I see KGB on your forehead," or singing Beach Boys' "Barbara Ann" ?
And Obama failed with more than two-thirds of Republicans opposing and 60% Democrats supporting the bill?
The numbers don't lie, dumb ass.
Copied & pasted from the other thread, as it makes more sense here:
CEOs and lobbysts funded GOP House members killed the bill (2 3rd oppsed)because there was retraint-on-CEO-and-Executive string attached to it.
So CEOs and other executives succeeded to fail the bailout bill through their loyal GOPs, the recipient of regular campaign contribution, kickbacks, and gifts.
Where is the self-proclaimed maverick, one who cannot reach his own side of the aisle and brags about reaching across the aisle? Is he not part of failing the bill?
Did he not mean he would suspend his campaign until he did "necessary work" for failing the bill when he said he would "suspend my campaign and return to Washington until a deal can be reached in Congress"? Did he not mean "the deal" to fail the bill?
Freud is helpful here to psychoanalyze the McCain suspension of the campaign statement: It is called sublimation with relation to the desire of the conservative base of the party, in which he masked his desire to fail the bill by articulating the opposite in public, something acceptable in appearance but coded to be read as the directive in reversal. But introduction of the conservative bill at the end of the White House meeting and refrain from taking a position was a veiled endorsedment of the conservative base's position and his support for failing the bill and protecting all Carly Fiorinas, contribution base of the party.
September 29, 2008 5:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's what I make of the mess McCain left in Washington.
September 29, 2008 5:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
F*ck Kucinich and his whacko lobby as well. Thanks Dennis.
September 29, 2008 5:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Co-sign.
I do not like the wacky left and Kucinich is wacky, I don't care what anyone says. He breaks into song during speeches. He's wacky and this really pisses me off.
I'm very disappointed in our more liberal congressional members. They've lied to us about several things - and this gets me in trouble because Russ Feingold is the saint of liberalism, but they lied about FISA - it was never the statute, the problem was that Bush never followed the statute.
And now this.
I'm just utterly fed up.
September 29, 2008 5:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama said, "It's important for the American public and the markets to stay calm, because things are never smooth in Congress, and to understand that it will get better...We are going to make sure that an emergency package is put together, because it is required for us to stabilize the markets..."
Exactly right. In other words, "Don't let that spluttering blowhard ruffle you, he's just one senator, he's one vote out of a hundred, and while it would be nice if he wanted to work with us on this, we can manage just fine without his help."
September 29, 2008 5:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
By the end of this week the McCain campaign should be toast, unrecoverable. And if not for the supposed financial meltdown, I would be breathing easier. The only way Grampy and the Moose Hunter can win is if there is a terrorist attack and Grampy shows up on the scene and pulls victims out with his bare hands. What are the chances of that. More likely he would suspend his campaign, show up a few days later, fark it all up and lead to more civilian casualties. And then blame Obama.
September 29, 2008 5:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree with you and what thin sliver of silver lining there is here is just that - McLame is done for.
September 29, 2008 5:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Paul Krugman has this to say:
September 29, 2008 5:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah. And a lot of them -- McShame, Palin, Boehner, you name it -- are about as sane, stable, mature and prone to rational thought as Mugabe, Chavez, Ahmedinejad and Kim.
September 29, 2008 5:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Judd Gregg is saying that the package was fair, that everyone who left the negotiations felt there views were heard and that the package needs to be passed.
September 29, 2008 5:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Josh,
It's hard to see how a highly partisan speech that attacks Republican economic policies, would bring reluctant members of that party along on the most important vote since the Iraq war.
Good leaders understand that the opposition has their own set of concerns and tries to allay those fears, rather than pouring gasoline on the fire.
So far, Obama has been able to go subtle on this issue. Now that the deal has fallen through, he may come under some pressure to provide more leadership. It could work for him, but with the vast majority of the electorate against this thing, he could take a hit.
September 29, 2008 5:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama has been playing it safe. Now is the time for him to step off the sidelines and get involved in the game. This failure by Congress to get this bill passed has the makings of presenting Obama with the perfect opportunity to establish himself as someone capable of bring warring factions to the table, console and comfort feelings, then hammering out an equitable piece of legislation that all partys will agree to. And he can do it before the next Presidental Debate. The differences are not all that great and the need to get it accomplished quickly are in his favor. Especially with the markets tanking. He only needs Bu$hs help to call Congress back in session. And I don't think that would be too hard to get. It would be a win-win situation for both. And McCain would be left out in the cold.
September 29, 2008 5:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
What many of you folks seem to have forgotten is that John McCain is a bona fide hero who was held in a tiny cell in Hanoi for several years. During this time he didn't even have a kitchen table! So during time of national crisis it's not really fair to hold him to the same standard of calmness and steadiness that we expect from Barrack Obama. Take a deep breath and try to remember why we hold him in such esteem. If that doesn't work, take another deep breath...Let McCain be McCain!
September 29, 2008 5:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't think he ever left his cell. Mentally, he's still there.
September 29, 2008 5:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Not only Farad (sp) called for Palin to step down another very conservative columnist, one of Palin's biggest cheerleaders, did likewise today.
The sobering implications of what it means to have Palin on the ticket while the economy and Wall St. are in dire straights evidently suddenly dawned on the press that this is not a game.
Absent common sense, good judgment, reasoned logic without forethought or concern for the consequences McCain often exacerbates situations. That was apparent last week when he meddled in the negotiations and shortly thereafter collapsed. Today despite the economy teetering on the edge of a crisis and the public on the verge of panic he was more interested in scoring political points. These examples are the type of "leadership" we can expect from McCain.
Why does he even want to be president in the first place!
On the other hand Obama has been reassuring and calming. He understands the gravity of the situation. Equally or more importantly Obama shows a genuine concern for the people.
The difference between the two men are night and day.
More than ever the need for responsible reporting right now couldn't be more urgent. If only the politicians in Washington would sober up long enough to set aside partisanship perhaps the market would not have fallen 777 points today.
This is just crazy.
September 29, 2008 6:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Do the republicans have a "bailout plan" of their own?
There is a growing reality by the day that Obama will be the next president. That being said wouldn't republicans want to hand over an economy that is so utterly decimated that it doesn't allow for any agenda to be pursued, bold or otherwise?
Now the republicans can run and hide behind their old values of supposed smaller government, less spending ( a little late though ) and claim victory.
It's early yet, and it's highly unlikely the robber barons of Wall St ( the money men of the gop ) will be left holding the bag. There will be a deal because after eight years of screwing everyday people that have to work 40 plus hours; the big guys need their friends to help them run out the back door.
September 29, 2008 6:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
How ironic is that?! Only on Saturday, McCain was happy to phone it in.
September 29, 2008 6:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
Do the Republicans have a "bailout plan" of their own?
In May, 2007, President Bush signed NSPD51, a presidential directive dealing with maintaining the continuity of the US government in case of attack, natural disaster (Katrina type) and in section 5g, financial threat to the United States security. Under the powers granted to the President, and his appointees (Homeland Security, etc.) the President would assume unitary powers until such time as the emergency was over. Although many provisions of this directive were repealed in 2008, in signing the repeal, President Bush added a signing statement which essentially kept the provisions in place. Please feel free to Google the many references to this act.
In addition, this year a new Army unit was formed to learn and deploy the latest crowd control tactics. In violation of the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878, this deployment allowed the use of regular Army troops for domestic control within the United States.
Pardon me, I'm going to get my tin hat now!
September 29, 2008 7:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
That is an editorial opinion not supported by any case history. No signing statement has ever been upheld because none has been tested.
You may fear that a Republican court may uphold signing statements, but (in my editorial opinion), that possibility is close to nil.
The constitution is quite clear what the President's duties are. From Article II, Section 3...
He has no option to refuse to enforce any part of a bill he signed into law.
The constitution is also quite clear about how laws are made. There is no provision for any mechanism (signing statement) whereby a President can sign into law some parts of a bill and not others. Nada.
September 29, 2008 8:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
JZAP
Bush did it anyhow. He has over 800 signing statements to his name. That is more than the other presidents combined and they used the privilege to define their interpretation of the law. Bush, on the other hand, uses his statements that basically say he has the right to ignore the law and do as he pleases.
Some of which have been held up by a court of law.
Many of the powers he usurped, at Cheney's command, probably cannot be rolled back! That changes things ... yes it is against the Constitution, but who is going to stop him? No one has yet!
Bush & Cheney stacked the DoJ with political operatives whose loyalty is to them not the Constitution.
They stacked the federal and district courts w/ friendly judges ...
Having installed loyalists who have their back why bother following the Constitution when ignoring any rule of law anytime they please will not be considered criminal!
Therein is the problem.
September 30, 2008 2:39 AM | Reply | Permalink