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New York Times: Hillary Speech Partly Driven By Ambition

There's a bit of buzz this morning about the fact that anonymous Hillary advisers supposedly suggested to The New York Times that her speech last night was partly driven by the fact that she would run for president in 2012 should Obama lose, and to that end wanted to preserve goodwill within the party.

For instance, MSNBC's political team, headed by Chuck Todd (one of the best and fairest in the biz), wrote this morning that it was an example of her "staff" screwing her over by leaking stuff anonymously that trampled on the speech.

This strikes me as a major jumping of the gun, however. The Times passage in question, by Patrick Healy, reads:

Mrs. Clinton is almost certain to run for president in 2012 if Mr. Obama fails this time, several Clinton advisers said Tuesday, and any such plan could possibly founder if the Clintons' negative feelings show through this year.

Reading anything into this is a serious reach. Everyone knows that the term "adviser" is a notoriously slippery one. Most political reporters have spoken to lots of people who call themselves "advisers" to Hillary who are anything but. MSNBC's team knows this full well, but nonetheless for some reason calls this a reference to her "staff."

And it's hard to know what this Times reporting even means, if anything. It's perfectly possible that the Times reporter introduced the topic by asking an "adviser" or two if she might run in 2012 if Obama lost and got an offhand "yeah, probably," in return.

Was Hillary's speech partly motivated by a desire to maintain good standing in the party with an eye towards the future? No doubt, but to inject this hint of ambition and scheming into the coverage based on the paraphrasing of a few anonymous "advisers" is a crappy thing to do.


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I'm guessing that MSNBC is now reviewing Hillary's video in slow-mo to find all the subliminal "Vote McCain" frames they spliced in.

Must maintain the narrative. Must maintain the narrative.

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indeed.

in fact, all, if you see any examples of folks doing their damndest to keep the schism story alive can you shoot it to us at talk@talkingpointsmemo.com?

holy shit! that's insane.

That was a few nights ago, perhaps opening night itself. I'm sure he was upset and wanted to subtly voice that frustration, probably one of the last holdouts who thought Hillary would be VP (as she should've been).

But last night James Carville didn't wear those shoes and was fully behind Hillary's speech. He was also very upset that McCain had the nerve to run one of his Hillary ads during the first commercial break on CNN. He said it was a good night to be a Democrat, that we have some of the best Democratic talent still to come in the next two days with Bill & Obama.

But there's a whole reality-denying industry that could easily be refuted but almost no one is doing it. See Eric Boehlert's column yesterday at Media Matters:

http://mediamatters.org/columns/200808260005

Billy Glad even pointed this out in one of his posts, and no one even bothered to comment on it (presuming they even stopped to read it).

Read the whole thing just now. Bookmarked it for future reference even.

Disgusting. We should've stood up for Hillary a lot sooner.

There wouldn't be any narrative if Clinton's advisers, supporters, staffers would stop feeding the MSM info.

Caroline Kennedy smacked down Wolf when he tired to go in that direction.

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The problem is, is that there's no shortage of Hillary dead-enders running around the convention still carrying a torch.

Greg talks about wanting to see examples, all he has to do is turn on the cable news programs and it's all out there on full display. For instance, on Morning Joe they were busy interviewing a Hillary dead-ender asking her if planning on voting for Obama and she said unequivocally "no". Thus the narrative is maintained and all is right in MSM pundit-land.

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I know. This ambitions story is bullshit if I've ever heard it. Did these idiots actually listen to the speech, or were they writing up the narrative as she was talking?

Right. Immediately after Hillary's wonderful speech, CNN was able to make news by finding a young black woman delegate in tears who said that she wouldn't vote for McCain, but for the first time ever, she might not vote at all because Obama just didn't have enough experience. Anderson Cooper said that maybe they could check in with her again after Obama's speech to see if she changed her mind.

All I kept thinking as I watched her was "And they think Obama supporters are cult members?". It was ridiculous.

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Wonder how much time they had to spend to find that one lone person refusing to still vote...It had to have been a challenge, identifying who was going to give the most over the top response...

And you can bet CNN will find a way to keep a camera trained on that "supporter" during Obama's speech. Sure, it will be really tough with 75000 other people, but CNN will find a way, no dobut.

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I couldn't believe what I was hearing from these pinheads after Hillary herself was telling her suporters to vote for Obama. Then here are these people that "love" Hillary soooo much that they're not going to vote. What do these people possibly hope will happen? Divine intervention? Frustrating beyond measure. And, of course, the cable channels were lapping it up.

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A lot of these Clinton "advisers" realize that without the Clintons they are pretty washed up. Nobody wants to be washed up.

Well put it this way - Hillary will have a better chance in 2012 then she had before her speech last night. However if we get four years of McCain, I don't think it will matter much because we'll have 2-3 50yo Supreme Court Justices in the mold of Roberts/Scalia and probably be in a war with Iran and in a stand-off with Russia.

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Let's hope what you're saying only resides in the "alternative histories" section of the bookstore.

A McCain presidency will make the "Watchmen" alternate history look as a joke.

Even if you take the media narrative at face value, and assume Hillary Clinton is entirely motivated by her own personal ambitions, it hardly follows that she'd prefer to watch Obama lose so she can run again in 2012. She's a senator from a powerful state, on the verge of having her party take decisive control of the Senate. Having a Democrat in the White House will give her a huge variety of opportunities she wouldn't have otherwise.

She can set herself up for a 2016 run. She can work on turning herself into the next Ted Kennedy. She can establish a real legacy of meaningful legislation. Clinton's more than savvy enough to reap huge rewards from an Obama win.

Of course, the better question is why can't these Clinton advisors keep their mouths shut? It purposefully undermines the speech she gave last night, which I suppose is the exact point. I'm sick of this story. But I'm more sick that the Clintonites are doing everything they can to keep it alive.

http://pufferfish.typepad.com/

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I strongly recommend skepticism when the msm quotes "advisers" saying this or that.

Fair point.

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Greg,

I've sent a few e-mails to my Congressman, Patrick Murphy, ergo, I see myself as an advisor, available for interviews and comments. I simply require my name never be used.

JohnW1141

When the same Clinton aides, keep putting out messages that the individuals who support Obama's candidacy think undermine HRC, they obviously are misreading the tactic.

The Clinton advisors and aides are not saying these things without the full support of Billary. Their goal is to win the WH for them. All the folks who were riding the Billary coattails and who see an Obama loss as another shot at the presidency for them. Billary wants this.

Billary knows their job is to mouth support but not give support. To endorse Obama but not embrace Obama.

Hillary endorsed Obama in her speech last night. In contrast, Schweitzer embraced Obama. There is a huge difference!! It is not so much what HRC said as what she didn't say that tells the true story and the very real objective of Billary and their vastleftwingconspiracy.

Bill criticized Obama jsut yesterday with the whole experience club, he said that if candidate X has positions you don't agree with but you think he can deliver vs. candidate y, who you agree with his positions but don't think can deliver...who do you vote for?

That was the core piece missing from Hillary's endorsement. She did not embrace Obama's judgment and character to lead. She did not talk about how being in Washington a long time does not equate to judgment even if it is experience. She did not talk about how Congress despite all their collective Washington experience got it wrong on the war. Hillary did not debunk the myth of being in politics a long time is not the same as having the judgment to lead and being able to make right decisions at critical junctures.

Hillary needs to talk about how 127 Democrats, a majority of Democrats in the Congress voted against the war!! That Hillary herself opposed the most experienced leaders in Washington in her own party when she voted for the war..Carl Levin the chair of the Armced Svcs committe as well as Bill Graham the chair of the Intelligence cmte. Hillary did not listen to them, she instead voted FOR the war..they voted AGAINST it!!

You see, for Hillary to back Obama she has to acknowledge that she got the vote wrong..and she steadfastly has refused to acknowledge that, during her entire campaign she refused to say she was wrong on the war, which is one of the major reasons she lost. Recall, this is the judgment that Bill himself called a 'fairytale' These were the seeds of doubt sown by Billary to reject Obama's judgment, just as the GOP is doing. No tactical differnce at all other than the source. Bill misjudged Democrats, though, and couldn't see how folks did not want another politican who is so wrongheaded they can't change course or admit to the people they were wrong.

This party will win the election when her and Bill BOTH acknowledge that Obama DOES have the judgement to lead from day one. He,alone has demonstrated that during this political year. No one else has.

So, I acknowledge that Hillary gave a rip roaring endorsement but she needs to embrace Obama for the leadership, judgment and vision that he brings to the Democratic party and to the Presidency.

THAT is when this party will win in a landslide!

But, alas..we all know that is not HillorBill's goal. They do not want Obama to win, they only want to insure they are not blamed for his loss. Thus their aides are once again telling the true story to the media, that they want told to undermine Obama's candidacy.

Millions of Americans are confused by words vs. deeds. I am not. Billary's actions speak way louder than their words and so do the actions of their henchmen, McAuliffe, Begala and Caraville who all betrayed Kerry as well.

The Clintons put a nice covering on their true goals but I for one need them to step up to the plate and say:

Obama is ready to lead on day one.

If Bill does that the Democratic party will win the White House.

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That was the core piece missing from Hillary's endorsement. She did not embrace Obama's judgment and character to lead.

Absolutely!!

I felt the exact same thing. Hillary needed to do two things. One, bring her reluctant supporters over to Obama and unite the party. She did that admirably well. Two, give a full throated endorsement of Obama and counter the negative "Not ready to lead" theme she herself pressed in the waning, terribly destructive last weeks of her campaign, and which McCain had taken up with gusto. This she most emphatically did not do.

Her endorsement of Obama boiled down to "We need a Democrat," not "We need Obama, who is an extraordinary man, and an extraordinary candidate and will be an extraordinary President."

On the whole, I was disappointed. As usual, Clinton's speech seemed all too much about, guess who, Clinton.

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Hillary can't win.

She either DIDN'T say 'this or that',

or she DID say 'this or that'.

Well if you recall, Hillary says if is not suffice to denounce something..you have to both reject and denounce it. Given that is her very own standard, at the very least she needed to embrace, endorse and extoll why Obama was ready to lead and not just a speech.

I bet the Clinton advisor leaking this is James Carville, who was seen at the DNC Convention last night wearing PUMA shoes.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6759088&mesg_id=6759088

It makes common sense that HRC would want to keep her options open for a run in 2012. But yes, the Times piece is pretty thinly sourced.

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Exactly. Of course Hillary will run in 2012 if Obama loses. Why shouldn't she? And of course negativity in this campaign could cause her ill-will in a hypothetical 2012 run. But that is in no way inconsistent with Hillary being a vigorous supporter of Obama in this election cycle, and genuinely wanting him to win. Hillary's choice to go positive in the democratic camps is vastly overdetermined. No reason to knock her enthusiasm for Obama.

Because Hillary, who is still hurting from her primary loss, has done everything that has been asked of her and then some, I choose to see her behavior this way:

Hillary Clinton is hoping for the best (an Obama victory) and preparing for the worst (an Obama defeat).

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See my comment above, which was intended as a reply to your message.

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Greg, your criticism is misplaced. Instead of blaming the Times for reporting the story, wouldn't it be more appropriate to criticize the advisor who stepped all over their boss's speech last night by making these remarks?

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actually, that should be "advisors" because there was apparently more than one talking to the press last night.

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It's their story and they're sticking to it.

Since Monica, the Clinton's are a ready-made "politics as pulp romance" novelette. That's too easy to refuse for a MSM driven by access to elite sources rather that real investigative reporting.

Having advised Hillary to speak Arabic (and her ignoring my advice unfortunately), I can now speak as a Hillary adviser and say that she is really from another galaxy and hiding a tail in her pants suit.

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It's hardly surprising, albeit "crappy", that the coverage is of this nature.

What is surprising, continually, is the Democrats inability to keep their damn mouths shut. For all we know, Hillary Clinton isn't thinking about running in 2012, and is completely behind Obama. However, because people like Carville, Begala, and all those "anonymous" Clinton supporters can't keep their damn mouths shut, we'll never know.

They're screwing her over, and don't even realize it. The same goes for the Hillary fundraisers who feel "slighted" by the Obama campaign because they didn't get the best hotel rooms at the Ritz.

CTVoter,
There were too many people's lives and careers riding on HRC winning the WH. They are being given permission by Billary to go out and say what they are saying. Billary is not embracing Obama..they are endorsing him. There is a big difference. Schweitzer embraced Obama, his vision, his judgment and his wisdom to lead. Not Billary.

There was an entire WH in waiting at the Center for American Progress relying on Billary taking back the WH.

These aides, are doing precisely what Billary wants...sow the seeds of doubt on the one weakness that has traction with voters..and they know that well!

These folks are skipping over '08 and focusing on '12 because they are no the powermovers and shakers with access to the inner circles of power. They have no access to the the Obama team becasue of the nasty vile vicious campaign they ran with their GOP character attacks on Obama during the primary. Unless Billary regains power these folks are in the dustbin.

Unless Billary regains power these folks are in the dustbin.

An optimistic assessment, but here's hoping!

I'm sick to death of both Carville and his wife, but I imagine that even w/Obama in the WH, he will show up on the talk show circuit to throw daggers.

I don't know Carol..unlike Gergen..Carville is irascible. Once he is unable to provide inside scoop I do not think he will last long as an analyst. Particularly not, if the Obama administration rightfully completely discredits, denounces and rejects his 'analysis'.

We need more Hillary news on this page.

Exactly. I know everyone is up in arms this morning because Dowd was her witchy self still, even after Hillary's excellent speech (and I do agree she did a great job), but Dowd does have an important point. Never have I seen a convention about the loser either. It's unreal.

Now it is a given that this what will Hillary and Bill do story? has been fed by the media bigtime. But the convention is paying obeisance to the Clintons in a way that is, quite frankly, making a lot of people, including myself, simply scratch their heads.

But it is definitely the direction the convention has been going, and the crowd is in line. Ted Kennedy, dying of brain cancer, makes the effort to get there and the crowd's reaction is tepid next to the hysteria when Sen. Clinton walks on the stage in saffron orange sharkskin. Jimmy Carter walks around like persona non gratis and then the press puts a microphone in front of his face and asks him what? What he thinks of the Clinton supporters. Will the party unite?
And the natives don't even listen to the keynote address, which admittedly, didn't really merit much attention. But still.

Now it goes without saying that conventions are dog and pony shows that would drive any sane person to the brink. My idea of hell would be being stuck on that floor listening to all the truly horrible speakers and speeches. The Kennedy tribute was touching, but, again, neither the film nor the man himself seemed to affect the crowd in the way I might have expexted. And where was the wild applause for his niece, telling us how Obama has inspired her?

Aside from Michelle Obama -- who was also superb (but not too much more than respectfully received), Brian Schweitzer -- who was, god bless him, somehow capable of waking up the comatose crowd -- and, yes, Clinton with her near electrifying Harriet Tubman keep going finish to her speech, this convention is putting the nation to sleep.

On the other hand, if making Obama seem dull by comparison was the point, then this convention is doing a great job. Like Dowd, I do not think the show so far has served Obama well at all. Put his face up on a big screen and it becomes about his daughters, which is great on one hand, his girls are absolutely adorable and America loves kids. But on the other hand, when you're being branded as a lightweight and an ineffectual empty suit, it doesn't exactly help your cause to have a seven year old walk all over your lines.

And then the next night, his excellent wife and her excellent speech is eclipsed by the loser of the primary. Good thing Clinton said vote for Obama. Really good thing because you might think he didn't exist otherwise.

So I have to ask, was this loading of the program with Clinton tribute really wise? Equally puzzling to me is the question of was it really necessary. These people who cannot give in on Hillary call to my mind Terry Schiavo fanatics, and this country now seems to me even more filled with nutcases than I'd thought. God help us if these are the people our politics absolutely have to please.

Maybe Obama is in a bunker becasue there are so many threats against his life in Denver that the secret service are ONLY allowing him in public in denver at Invesco?
Maybe the threats to his life are unprecendented just like the size of his Secret Service contingent?

Pray for him. Just pray for him.

I do so daily.

I wasn't at all impressed with HRC's speech. She could of taken her speaking opportunity to really lay into McCain's ass and the PUMA asses too, instead she opted to reflect on her life, struggles and accomplishments, which is fine and well, i guess. But clearly, that lady will always have motives. I applaud Obama for not putting her own his ticket.

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I know I know. Now people are saying "2 days of McCain primetime attacks wasted." But she had a job to do of exciting her tribe to go to Obama. Plus she laid into the strengths of the Democratic Party: the hope of a better future and the means to get there. Maybe she could have said that the Dems offer hope while the Repubs offer only fear, but we'll see what tonight holds.

I'm guessing 'Clinton the sequel' will be of the attack dog variety.

And "keep going, keep going, keep going" was how she persuaded her people to switch over to Obama? I'm not seeing it. That sounded to me a whole lot like "my campaign is still alive and in full swing, don't give up on me, wait until 2012." I hope I'm wrong, but I took it that way and I can't imagine that the Hillary Faithful didn't. And obviously, the first step to her winning in 2012 is to make sure that Obama isn't the president.

I didn't think that much of the speech, in case that wasn't obvious. The only good thing she said about Obama was to admit that he's a Democrat, and the only bad thing she said about McCain was . . . well, actually, there weren't any. She did mention how honorable his military service was, and of course she managed to slip in the "35 years" thing again, which she has never once mentioned without it being a slighting reference to Obama's inexperience.

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I guess I disagree. I voted for Hillary in the primary, and I didn't see any obvious doublespeak in her speech. Of course, I'd already switched to Obama and was happy too.

Well personally, LegalCat that moment was very interesting to me. I suspect it is being interpreted in several ways by folks, depending on their race, gender and historical knowledge.

Given that the speech focused on bringing all her supporters behind Obama, mainly women who see her candidacy as part of the 'suffragette' movement and last nigh being the anniversary of the women obtaining the right to vote and all I thought it was a very divisive subliminal message. History tells us that the suffragettes broke with the abolitionists over male slaves getting the right to vote before them. So, that would be a call to arms against the Obama candidacy.

Now, if you are not aware of that history and perhaps you are not white you might interpret the message as her reaching out to the millions of African Americans that she and Bill dissed by engaging in racemongering during the primaries. A call to say to them, we are not racists even if we stoop so low as to use racial divisiveness as a tactic to win without regard for the long term racial consequences upon our party and society.

If you are both black and female, you see the shrewed calculation in this statement coupled with her unwillingness and failure to embrace Obama's judgment to lead as just a call to arms for her white sisterHOOD to remember NOT to allow the black male to achieve again AHEAD of her white sister hood. i.e. I am not telling you he has the judgment to lead.

They would know this because they have always beleived that she had the experience to be President not the 'affirmative action' Obama just as white women were entitled on the basis of race to have the right to vote ahead of men who were slaves, so too are they on the basis of race and gender entitled to the Presidency before a man, especially a black man!

MSNBC's political team, headed by Chuck Todd (one of the best and fairest in the biz), wrote this morning that it was an example of her "staff" screwing her over by leaking stuff anonymously that trampled on the speech.

If true, it would be yet another example of how her staff was her own worst enemy throughout the entire primary process.

Was Hillary's speech partly motivated by a desire to maintain good standing in the party with an eye towards the future? No doubt, but to inject this hint of ambition and scheming into the coverage based on the paraphrasing of a few anonymous "advisers" is a crappy thing to do.

I agree. I don't care about her motivations, which I'm sure were a mix of the selfish and selfless. She was outstanding last night in every way. If it's the media, rather than anyone who's a real advisor to Hillary, trying to create controversy where it doesn't exist, well, fuck them.

I agree. And its also worth noting Hillary consulted Mark Penn on her speech. Sad!

Hillary consulted Mark Penn on her speech.

Excuse me while I barf. That makes me want to take back everything I said about how great the speech was.

Chuck Todd has misread the entire tactic. He is giving Billary a pass. He is skipping over the very glaring omission that Billary has not embraced Obama's judgment to lead. Billary only endorsed Obama and then they sent out their loyal backstabbing minions to deliver the real undermining message to the press. It is intentional and deliberate. The story those aides are telling is the story the Clintons want told. The Clintons have nothing to gain by Obama winning.

Todd is doing the same coverup for the Clintons that the media does with all of McCains gaffes and mistatements and negative character attacks. Claiming that 'others' have taken over their message because they really aren't like that or that they must have slipped up. NUH-UH...these folks are inDEED experience politicians in every sense of the word.

The messages the media is being given are precisely the ones McCain and the Clintons want to send. Both Billary and the Clintons have a common foe...it is Obama..the upstart who they both sides agree does not have the judgment to lead.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Did not Hillary call McCain her friend last night?

Wake up Democrats, like Kucinich exhorted us too!!

Excuse me, a politician's staff leaks because they are allowed (or encouraged) to do so. Notice the lack of leaks from Obama's.

Carville, Begala and that ilk are all about getting facetime on tv. How they do it doesn't matter.

The shortest distance to a soundbite in Denver is to feed the schism beast.

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Greg, this is a fair point to analyze. But please, for all that is holy, promise us this is the last day of Hillary news on this blog until the election.

I BEG YOU!!!!!!!!!

http://strategy08.wordpress.com

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By letting her supporters KNOW that if Obama LOSES in November --- (she'll be running again in 2012)...in other words.... if they JUST WAIT (don't vote for him) - they'll have HER as their president in 4 years.

Is this what you are saying is going on?

Yes. And that is correct. That is the purpose of the tactic and the strategic goal is now 2012.

While there've been some good moments, the first two nights of the DNC have basically been devoted to tangling with Republican talking points. First, Michelle has to prove she's human. Next up, Hillary has to prove she really, really, really likes Obama.

You can bet that answering Dem charges won't be a priority in Minneapolis, though. Minneapolis is going to be four days of frightening the living crap out of America and smearing Obama to high heaven.


It might be because the MSM - and even sites like this one - jump every time the GOP says "Boo!" You go to war in the media climate you have, not the media climate you want.

Partially agree.

Instead of accepting that climate, they need to change it. How do they do that? See Housegate.


I agree that they need to change it, but in many ways, that kind of structural/discursive transformation could take years. In the meantime, Housegate is a nice opening, and hopefully we'll see tonight and tomorrow advance three key story lines: McCain's temper/dangerous foreign policy judgment, Mc'Cain's out of touch/the true elitist, and John McCain will say anything to win. Let's get the fucking pundits talking about that.

Hillary's email this morning to her supporters says:

"Standing on that stage tonight in front of 20,000 Democrats unified behind Senator Obama, I saw a bright future for America. I saw millions of people across the country working as one to elect the next Democratic President. I saw a new President and a new Congress giving a voice to the voiceless. I saw America, the land of endless potential, regaining its role as a leader in the world.

I couldn't be prouder of our party, of our nominee, and of all the work you and I have done together over the course of this campaign on behalf of the American people.

I knew that as I stood in front of that podium, I wasn't alone. I had you, and everyone who has supported me, standing right up there with me. And that means the world to me.

Thank you again for everything you've done. Now let's get to work helping elect Barack Obama, Joe Biden, and all of our great Democratic candidates!"

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Yeah, but she didn't say "banana". If she would've just said "banana" then her followers would all be voting for Obama instead of planning for her 2012 run.

I thought the key word was "pomegranate". Damn, they gave me the wrong memo.

I was looking for parakeet, dalmatian and sandwich. No fixed ideas on the order they appeared, just enough to, you know, show the nation her heart's in the right place. (A bit to the left, sorta mid-torso'ish.) Hell, even "sandwich" woulda done it for me.

$100 million bucks, and she didn't even produce a B, much less an LT.

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4rosie,

"But was it enough?" asks Wolf Blitzer..."stay tuned, we'll be right back".

Hillary drama covered endlessly at TPMEC??

No?! I'm shocked, just shocked.


Hillary is sadly mistaken if she thinks Obama supporters will embrace her 012 candidacy if Obama losses. Rest assure Obama supporters will not forget all the mean and wicked things Hillary and asshole supporters have done.

Yeah, but we sure as hell would vote for her over John McCain. It isn't a suicide pact.

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Nice way to keep the "rift" alive in the blogosphere.

I know you are just calling out the "narrative pushers", and not doing so yourselves....that would be unthinkable.

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I saw a story in WaPo headlined, ""Many Clinton Supporters Say Speech Didn't Heal Divisions". As usual, the headline is kind of a distortion of what the actual article says. The interviewed a few Hillary supporters at the convention and while most are still pissed, several said they'd hold their nose and get behind Hillary while others said they just won't vote for president at all.

Except for one, the lovely Ms. Adita Blanco from Oklahoma. Here's what she had to say:

"I hate Obama so much that I'm going to devote as much time to McCain as I did to Hillary," said Adita Blanco, a Democrat from Edward, Okla., who has never voted for a Republican. "Obama has nothing. He has no experience. The Democratic Party doesn't care about us. You couldn't treat [Clinton] any worse."

Hate? Jesus, lady, get a life. These people are unhinged and our party would be better off without them.

And through the magic of the Google, I found out a bit more about Adita. She's posted comments on Larry Johnson's site - that's probably all you need to know. But I also found a discussion thread on another Hillary supporter site about whether or not they should push to have her chosen as Obama's VP. Here's her contribution to that discussion:

“I hope and pray she says 'no thanks' if she is offered the VP position. Hillary is POTUS material only. I will not vote for Obama even if she is part of that ticket. OBAMA NEVER!"

The only Hillary supporters who are casting their vote for McCain this fall are haters like Adita, nothing Hillary or the Party or Obama can do or say will make them vote for Obama in November. So Obama probably made the right choice in not picking Hillary as his running mate. Would have gained him nothing with these wackjobs.

"Hate? Jesus, lady, get a life. These people are unhinged and our party would be better off without them."

Amen.

Partly driven by ambition, to preserve goodwill in the party, to better ensure she is more electable (for President and I am sure for NY)....

All I can say is DUH!!

That's a politician being a politician, not a bad thing at all, it's what they do. DUH!

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I agree, completely. She gave an outstanding speech.

Hillary Clinton, since Obama became the "presumptive nominee" has been doing what she needs to do.

Unfortunately, her efforts are undermined by "anonymous advisors" and a godawful lazy media unwilling to look for a real story.

I'm still pissed Schweitzer's speech didn't get more coverage (CSPAN- were I watched, and in part on CNN- or so I hear).

You are absolutely right. The traditional media are lazy hacks who couldn't find a spine if they were on sale at the Dollar Store.

MSNBC's coverage has really been a let down, I was expecting better. Olbermann and Maddow have been great, but TOO MUCH PUNDITRY, in general.

I could care less what these asshats think, jsut cover the damn convention and what's actually being said.

The best example of this- while Schweitzer was laying into McCain last night, MSNBC was concern trolling over whether the Dems are hitting hard enough.

Further proof the pundits need to shut their damn yappers!

I agree Joseph..Schweitzer gave the speech that backed Obama and embraced him as being the one to lead the party.

Hillary endorsed Obama, Shcweitzer embraced Obama.

It was an awesome speech. ThankGod for C-span.

You evidently posted this while I was composing my own post downthread, but I see that, as usual, we are of one mind on this point. Who cares what her motivations were - she did right by our party and thus we should be grateful to her.

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The MSM, especially the assholes on Cable News shows are scared shitless of an Obama win as his Presidency will overshadow the Clintons and will make their lives much more difficult since they will lose their pinata for all of the shallow, lazy journalism they had when the Clintons were available.

Gee, heaven forbid they do real journalism and be forced to stop commenting on Hillary's laugh or clapping, or on Bill's subterfuge against Obama.

I've seen Obama come back at them when an interviewer asks an asinine question, its what every Democrat should do.

The big point of Hillary's speech last night is she had to come out swinging and she did. She did a great job, gave a great speech, and covered every single point she needed to. She was awesome. What her motivations were for that, we will never know, but in the end they don't matter. She did what she had to and it really couldn't be improved upon (IMO).

Imagine a politician acting in their own self-interest.

Forgive my crudeness, but that's about as newsworthy as my morning shit.

Xactly.

I am so sick of this bullshit. 24-news networks should be banned by law. News companies should only get, at the most, 1 hour each day to report the news.

It's all good, the world is supposed to end in 2012 anyways.

You mean according to the Mayan calendar?

Or is that Singularity thing?

Yeah I was referring to the Mayans.

If you don't think Hillary has an eye on 2012 you must be too naive.

Don't get me wrong. I liked her speech. My respect for Hillary was restored well before this speech. But no one can discount or dismiss Hillary and Bill's ambition to reclaim the White House.

If Obama wins, he would win not because but despite of Hillary.

After the glitz of her speech and the convention erodes, Hillary will not seem like a great help.

But I do salute her guts and her determination. I see why she's an inspiration to so many women. Also, she has been far more graceful than her husband so far.

I think that after tonight we may be feeling a whole lot better.

Biden won't pussyfoot around. And I've got a feeling - maybe wishful, maybe not - that the Big Dog might bring a barnburner.

I feel the same. I think the whole convention has been a steady escalation, as far bringing the fight to the GOP/McCain/Bush is concerned. I think it's been planned that way.

There shouldn't be this enormous pressure on Biden to hit it, not just out of the park, but into intergalactic space.

Don't misunderstand me, I think Biden's more than capable of doing a great job, and all he has to do is take McCain down the way he alone can do (though Schweitzer did a pretty good job too, but nobody got to see him other than those of us who watch the webstreams).

But Biden stumbles in any way, he could be in deep trouble. The comparisons to Hillary could be really grim.

On the other hand, it may turn out well for him (and for all of us) that there's been faultfinding with Hillary. Hey, we're all happy she was rousing, but we do need some hooks into the issue where the talking heads can say, now here Biden did it right. He (fill in the blank) in a way Sen. Clinton did not.

Let's remember who really needs to come out ahead here if we don't all want to move to Canada when McCain is inaugurated.

If McCain should be elected we will all be building bomb shelters in our backyards, like in the '50's. Although those Russian missiles will be back in Cuba so fast we won't even have time to build the bomb shelters, much less vote for the Clintons in 2012.

If anyone is more frightening than bush/cheney it's McCain. Did anyone see the post on Daily KOS about McCain taking Ambien with the link to the story from ABC in May?http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/8/22/1826/58209 According to the ABC report, doctors are unconcerned about McCain's use of Ambien. But this drug can cause hallucinations, memory loss, sleep walking, binge eating and worse. After Heath Ledger's death there were some investigative articles about Ambien, even in the NY Times.

But this drug can cause hallucinations, memory loss, sleep walking, binge eating and worse.
Yes, if taken improperly. Hundreds of thousands of people take it without having any problems. This is the last thing that concerns me with McCain.

Actually, I would change that from "hundreds of thousands" to just "thousands." ...probably more accurate that way.

The Obama campaign bores the MSM. "No Drama Obama" doesn't give them anything to fill their 24 hour news cycle with, so hey have to make up drama, and it seems Clinton "advisers" are more than willing to provide the quotes.

McCain gets coverage with his ridiculous ads and willingness to put surrogates on every station at any time.

What will the 24 hour news shows have to talk about with "No Drama Obama" in the White House? No leaks, on message, disciplined.

All these MSM talking heads want is stories to tell, if President McCain will be better for their bottom line, then that's what they want.

I think it is also possible that the Secret Service has clamped down on giving information about Obama's schedule to limit access.

It is possible that there are unprecendented threats against this life and that is why he is not even in Denver. Have you noted how the press does not even mention his whereabouts?

I would not be surprised if that video unscripted moment with his family was a trial run for what we are going to have at Invesco.

Obama maynot even be there ...he may deliver his speech via Jumbotron.

I am not at all convinced by the meme that everything Sen Clinton does is part of a diabolical plan to take over the world, but let us imagine that this line of thinking has merit. That does not change the fact that last night she gave a fantastic speech. She took John McCain down at the kneecaps and that is all we could ask for. If it was motivated (in part or in whole) by self-interest that is nothing to me. We all do things motivated by self-interest; that is no crime. She did right by the democratic party and our nominee and that is the only thing that really matters. Attempts to read sinister subtexts into this are not only unconvincing, they are beside the point even if they could be made more convincing.

The best way to counter-act a careless media is to bring a great ground game. In that regard, we are kicking McCain's ass! If you're worried about our chances and want to counteract the media and GOP spin the best thing you can do is get on the ground and knock on some doors.

Hell, talk to your neighbors about why you're gonna vote for Obama. It's a start.

What is phenomenally stupid is that they're treating the likelihood that the personal ambition of a politician may have affected her actions as if its some kind of a major newsflash.

Keith Olbermann made a shrewd observation last night. The only way Hillary can possibly keep the option open of running in 2012 if Obama loses is by doing everything she possibly can to close that door, fully, enthusiastically and without the slightest hesitation. If she does anything to create the opportunity to run in 2012 for herself, she loses it.

I'm okay with that, and everyone else should be okay with it too.

Jesus, everything that every competent, useful politician does is the result of a complex mixture of some degree of calculating personal ambition, self-perceived altruism, genuine patriotism--at least as they see it, and a constant desire to keep their options open. Our entire Constitutional order is dedicated to, and designed around, that assumption.

Certainly, Hillary and Bill have done things over the years that could be justly criticized as partaking too much, and too obviously, of the calculating personal ambition at the expense of the public good or at the expense of doing undue harm to specific individuals. I have, to say the least, never hesitated to criticize them when I think they've done that and, indeed, my whole opposition to Hillary's candidacy sprang from one such instance.

But, damn, for the MSM--or anyone here for that matter--to talk like Hillary (or Bill or Barack, or even John McPow) should be held to some saint-like standard of absolute purity of motive, untainted by the slightest hint of self-interest, a Platonic ideal of perfection that the Founders believed impossible for any human being to attain, is just plain malignant.

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My husband, who hates all things politics, said he heard a commentator say before the speech that Hillary had to do a good job last night or her career in Washington was over. I doubted that, but I'm sure she was concerned about the impact it would make on her career.

However, I have never been a Clinton supporter, yet I thought her speech was just perfect. She was fluid and natural. She didn't seem stiff at all.

And... who cares if she's in it for 2012? This is 2008, and we have work to do.

Ambien can cause serious problems for "older" Americans due to the weaker nature of their kidneys and such. I am not an RN or MD but there were some excellent articles on Ambien after the death of Heath Ledger earlier this year. Maybe that's why McSenile couldn't remember how many houses he had - he was in Ambien withdrawl. Check out the posting on KOS, especially the comments by the RN.

Spike Lee on CNN: I ask you to compare the faces of the DNC with the faces of the RNC next week. Show the contrast of America.

Spike Lee, god bless you!

Also, my grandmother told me about a movie from the '60's called "On the Beach" - Director was Stanley Kramer - It is a doomsday classic about the end of the world - You can get it on Netflix. She's also filled me in on more details about the Cuban Missile Crisis and had a neighbor with a bomb shelter in their back yard on the south side of Chicago. There were "air raid" drills in the public schools. The thought of McCain becoming president is truly frightening.

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Hillary's speech was great. One of the best political speeches I've heard. And I'm no Hillary fan... or wasn't until that speech.

As for the notion her speech might have been partly driven by personal ambition? Wow. This just in...

I say we turn the spotlight around on the media. "Media stories partly driven by personal ambition..."

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In fact, lemme modify that slightly and give it proper attention:

This just in...

Media narrative partly driven by ambition!

make that corporate ambition...

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Rift shmift. The fact that supporting Obama may be good for Hillary, as well as being good for Obama, the Democratic Party, and the country, is not something I am going to lose any sleep over.

I went to bed last night thinking that Hillary had done a terrific job. This morning I am having second thoughts. Every Hillary supporter I have encountered in recent months says the same thing about Obama: He just isn't ready. Not once in her speech did Hillary say that Obama is ready. Not once did she say that he is experienced and wise enough to handle a 3 a.m. phone call about an international crisis. Not once did she say that she had overstated his weakness during the primaries. I stick with my initial assessment that Hillary was brilliant, but I now think brilliant in a Machiavellian way. It was brilliant in that fooled me into thinking that she really wants Obama to win this election. Hillary is a monomaniac, insanely obsessed with being president. Unlike Bill, she has ice water running in her veins. Her ambition is damaging the Democratic Party. A poll out this morning shows that 3/4th of the American public tends to agree with me. Bill Clinton, Terry McAuliffe and other Clinton insiders will not be at the Obama acceptance speech. Am I worried? Yes.

Oh stop it. She was damned if she did and damned if she didn't. She said what she said during the campaign. She shouldn't have said it, but that toothpaste is out of the tube and can't be put back. If she'd tried to walk it back, all we would have heard about today is what an insincere lying blanketyblank she was.

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Nice to see that at least some people are ready to give her a little respect. Those of us who supported Hillary never had any doubt but that she would fully support Obama. I reckon she's done more for the Democratic Party than anyone on this thread who is so quick to judge her. You guys come up with this fever dream about her undermining Obama in her speech, then treat it like some "will she or won't she" moment, ignoring the fact that the entire thing lives in your own imaginations.

As for the Obama haters, it's more than a little funny to see people all wound up about the haters, considering the amount of Hillary hate that has lived on this board for months, and continues to be promoted by people like vicissitudes.

As for the notion that she didn't "embrace" Obama, so what? No losing candidate has ever been as effusive in their support. But of course, a lot of Obama supporters won't be satisfied until she aplogizes for running, and declares that Obama was the better candidate all along.

Does anyone see the irony in praising Hillary for saying it's not about her, it's about the policies, then criticizing her for saying she supports Obama's policies, and didn't make it about him?

Listen up Chris O, if you have some facts to rebut any assertions made in my posts, do so. Otherwise these generalized personally attacks that are nothing but lies are completely ignorant on your part.
First off, I am not a hillaryhater. I am a staunch Democrat who voted for Humphrey, McGovern Carter and Dukakis as well as Mondale and Clinton, Gore and Kerry.

I even campaign for Hillary instead of Bill for the White House in 92...did you?

Everything I have stated about Hillary on this board is the truth backed by supportive facts. Perhaps, you are blinded by some mythical achievements on HRC's part but I am not. She does not have any individual political accomplishments during her elected time in office. If you know of any..state them.

I clearly agreed and repeatedly have said she gave a rip roaring endorsement of Obama. She however did nothing to rebut, reject or denounce the most scathing vile and viscious attack she spewed at Obama during the primaries where she endorsed the opposing party candidate over the Democratic nominee..by saying she had the experience and McCain had the experience but all Obama had was a speech he gave in 2002.

Not only was that a horrific indictment of the party nominee but what made it most heinous when she said it was she KNEW she could not win the party nomination and had lost! She never led in delegates at anytime during her campaign the facts demonstrate that she mathmatically lost the nomination in February after Obama won 12 consecutive primaries.

If you were not so sorely lacking in historical Democratic political knowledge of losing candidates you would know why, her endorsing Obama but not embracing him is is a HUGE deal.

But to sum it up succinctly. Her endorsement is insufficient AFTER her attacks on the party nominee. The Democratic party loyalists know this because it has happened previously. While no nominee may have given such a great endorsement, no nominee has EVER been so egregious as to endorse the OPPOSING PARTY nominee!! That was grounds for the party to kick her ass out the party.

She knows that, Bill knows that.

They both need to embrace Obama effusively, enthusiastically, repeatedly and UNEQUIVOCABLY. Every single leak from their 'adides/advisors/supporters' needs to be about how Obama has the judgment to lead and the vision and leadership American needs to take back this country from the GOP.

There should not be any undermining messages from their henchmen, there should be no coy remarks from Bill about 'you could argue no one is ever ready for the president' OR 'who you gonna vote for candidate X or Y" type malarky. Let alone Bill saying "for a republican McCain has the best economic plan he has seen" Bill Clinton and Hillary OWE the Democratic party BIG. Bill has power, he knows it and he needs to wield if for the good of the party not his selfish ambitions.

Bill disgraced this party and all of us loyal democrats had to live with that public humiliation NOT JUST Hillary!! We had to justify his lewd and lascivious defilement of the Oval office!

So, until you can make some statements of substance about what the Clintons have done for this party other than lose the congressional majority to Delay and Gingrich while diddling with his penis in the oval office, destroying the political possibility for healthcare for all Americans for decades, and dragging us threw 8 phucking years of Republicans destroying this country, because Bush won to 'restore honor' to the Presidency..you best not call this hate. It ain't hate. It is historical facts. Perhaps, you need to crawl up the crevice in Hillarys hallowen jackolantern pantsuit and PRAY she does not expell you with a blast of flatulence leading you to you have to post about how wonderful she smells.

When those of us with long memories know it was foul smelling stench.

The NYT article was chock full of unsubstantiated innuendo, more reminscent of the National Enquirer than a reputable news outlet - multiple references to "friends" and "advisers" speculating as to Clintons' state of mind, without a single quote. In other words, gossip. And of course, the gossip conveniently fits into the prearranged narrative.

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/08/was-that-the-ny-times-i-picked.php

Brian Schweitzer has given the best speech so far. It was electrifying, and unlike Clinton, he left his ego at the door.

I think he's going to be a rising star of the party. I also predict that Obama will win and that Mrs. Clinton will never be President. There are lots and lots of other rising stars among the Dems too. Her moment is over.

No matter who the 'advisors' were, it is a major statement if accurately represented in the Times. To believe Greg's version over the MSNBC view of it is simply arbitrary. Who's to say she didn't approve such confirmations? Who's to say the advisor WASN'T Grunwald or some such high-up? Just no way to know.

What is undeniable is huge personal stakes for Hillary Clniton herself and her acreer last night, and to expect analysis to ignore that is propagandistic.

MUST MAINTAIN NARRATIVE...MUST MAINTAIN NARRATIVE...

(kudos to publicola hussein)


Jeez, the woman is a politician and I assume wants to remain one. Of course she's not going to burn her bridges. She's one of the most powerful people in politics today. She understands her responsibilities as a party leader and she didn't shirk them one iota.

MSM and a lot of blogland was all aquiver talking about the tension of OMG! what's she gonna do! What's gonna happen! Only had she gone into a fit of foaming rage and bitten somebody, would they be happy. Well she didn't. So there. And they all end up sounding like those know-it-all opera affecionados. "ohhh yesss, well she did hit her high note, and yes it was strong, but I really think it lacked that, that something special"

Bullshit. It never occurred to me for a second that her speech would be anything but brilliant. But then of course, it was showing off... anything, anything but give her credit

Didn't anyone notice Pat Buchanans meltdown last night (Tues Aug 26) about what Hillary should say in her speech sometime between 8-10PM on MSNBC. I couldn't find a YOUTUBE on it.

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