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Now A McCain Surrogate Demeans Wes Clark's Service

The McCain campaign, keeping up the pressure over Wes Clark's comments, is holding its second conference call on this topic in two days -- but now the story has taken a new turn, with a McCain surrogate demeaning Clark's service.

Here's what Orson Swindle, a fellow POW of McCain's, said on the call, in a reference to generals, admirals, and other officers who back the Arizona Senator:

"General Clark probably wouldn't get that much praise from this group. I can't speak for them, but we all know that General Clark, as high-ranking as he is, his record in his last command I think was somewhat less than stellar."

Clark's last service was as the Supreme Allied Commander of NATO.

So does this count as demeaning Clark's service? This McCain surrogate actually lodged a direct criticism of Clark's service itself, whereas Clark's comments about McCain were, well, not this at all.

So does McCain himself agree with this? Will this be covered as an "attack" on Clark's service, as Clark's non-attack on McCain's service was?

Late Update: A McCain aide emails us to say that this wasn't an attack on Clark's service. The aide sends us this link to an article about Clark, and this statement:

It certainly was not an attack on his service - no one would ever disparage that. Everyone honors Gen. Clark's service and sacrifice -- he's literally bled for our country. It was about policy disputes.

Late Update: Here's the audio from the call:


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Ok, THIS is outrageous. then again, what would you expect from a man named Swindle.

It's not his fault that his name is Swindle, but it is his fault that he's living down to it.

Not as much of a joke as his name implies.

Orson Swindle (who was a Marine for 20 years and a POW in Vietnam with McCain) was head of United We Stand, aka the Ross Perot campaign, in the early 1990s. Later in the 1990s he was part of the Vin Weber, Jack Kemp, Jeanne Kirkpatrick organization Empower America.

Before working for QWAAAZY's third-party campaign, he was head of economic development in the Reagan Commerce Department. After his dalliance with Perot and Empower America, he went back mainstream as FTC commissioner (appointed by Clinton), where he gets credit for the Do Not Call list, a positive contribution.

So, an unfortunate name, but an impressively varied career and a willingness to step outside the GOP to get things done (combined with years of service in traditional political positions in the bureaucracy).

And now a total disgrace of a human being. Well, he had a good run ;-)

By all means, McCain camp, please help keep this story alive. I will be simply delighted if it is still in the headlines by the weekend holiday.

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I agree with you - I think you're right about the good cop bad cop routine here.

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You know, I didn't agree with you when you mentioned this yesterday, but I think I'm beginning to come around.

What does the public hear? "General Clark said crashing a jet and being a POW doesn't necessarily make you qualified to be Pres."

Hmmmm. A General said that?? He must know what he's talking about, right? And he's the former commander of NATO? Definitely must know what he's talking about.

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I didn't either, CT, until the thing kept going. Now I do.

And Clark was badly wounded in service, took a year to walk again. So now they are saying this crap, not a good move on their part.

As for Presidential Candidate Dementia, get this, yet again....if the MSM wants to cover something, lets talk about McCain mental agility.


'McCain confuses Sudan and Somalia.'

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You know, you have a disturbing fascination with reality...what's the problem here? Both countries begin with S, both are in Africa...what more do you want?

(snark, of course)

Really? Am I really supposed to go after McCain for a slip of the tongue? So he said Somalia when he meant Sudan. Can anybody say they've never done something like that? This kind of thing is just ridiculous gotcha-ism. And it's not even effective - do you really think that anybody is going to have their vote influenced by the fact that McCain slipped and said "Somalia" when he meant "Sudan"?

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Have you been paying attention to McCain's slip ups? This isn't an isolated incident.

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And just be helpful, here's a link to audio and visual of McCain talking about "President Putin of Germany"

McCain and President Putin of German

followed by a nice helping of McCain being confused about Iran:

Iran, Al Qaeda, What's the Diff???

There have certainly been some instances of this, but I don't think that, overall, such things are particularly significant, nor is this particular incident of much significance.

The stuff about the Shia and Sunnis was kind of significant because he had repeated it several times, and because his basic point was kind of dubious, as well, and suggested that he possibly misunderstood the situation, rather than just messing up the names.

But this is nonsense.

McCain working to keep this story in the headlights could be great for Obama. So much good information came from Clark. Clark can have another round of interviews so he can state his point of view. the more times the better , in fact. I really appreciated Clark's factual, reasoned, methodical statements on exactly what should be considered a plus in the resume of any person running for office. I liked it that Clark kept it simple and factual. I know it is a difficult concept for Republican's to get their heads around, so I expect them to continue to interpret what was said in their same, narrow-minded way. But in the end, it only shows McCain's lack of intellect if he cannot read the statement and get the gist of what Clark said. Hmmm, McCain, the old straight talk expresser has dwindled to the political hack I am now guessing he always was.

Since the McCain campaign is going to willfully misinterpret every fact statement they don't like, it's the MSM's intellect that matters. I wouldn't stake this election on the MSM's intellect.

Will this be covered as an "attack" on Clark's service, as Clark's non-attack on McCain's service was?

Of course not because Swindle is just a surrogate whereas Clark is - oh, right.

Where there's smoke, there's fire. These people are really worried that Clark's perfectly commonsensical remarks are going to resonate. Heh.

As rightly they should be. Mind you, I think that they are responding in entirely the wrong fashion. They should want this story to die quickly and lashing out like this only makes the sharks in the press corp smell blood in the water. Still and all, they are right to see Clark's salvo yesterday as a mortal threat. I tip my hat to Gen Clark.

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NPR had a blippage on this last night on one of the news updates. They repeated Clark's remark, and then had Bud Day defend McCain.

I didn't remember what Bud Day looked like, but he sounded incredibly OLD. And I thought, "This the image the McCain camp wants out there?"

I think they probably should have just let this go.

I think that McCain and his people are being played.

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Oh Carol, I certainly hope so.

It certainly looks like it... I think we've all got to remember that Obama's campaign beat THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY ESTABLISHMENT! This isn't amateur hour, and these guys are SMARTER than us, and definitely smarter than McCain's camp. If you need assurances as to how this is going to play out in the MSM, check Google news: http://news.google.com/news?hl=en

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This isn't amateur hour, and these guys are SMARTER than us,

You know, every time I get upset, that is what I fall back on - I'm not an expert at running campaigns and this one so far has been as well run as any I've ever seen.

When I'm in doubt, I just tend to think they know what they are doing. I haven't been all over the country talking to people = Obama has.

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When I'm in doubt, I just tend to think they know what they are doing. I haven't been all over the country talking to people = Obama has.
Posted by HusseinTenaX

I respect your comments but wonder about this "in the know" business in Washington or re beltway handlers.
It certainly would appear that they've all screwed the pooch big time on a regular basis.

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No, it works like this - I wouldn't ask my plumber to file an appellate brief in a criminal case. Well, I know just about as much about running a campaign as my plumber knows about criminal appeals.


It's not an insider thing, it's an expertise thing. [rolls eyes]

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Is that the sort of expertise that took our kids into Iraq?

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Actually, Tena's plumber was exactly the one who suggested we go into Iraq.

It's a little known fact.

(In case my point's not clear: Bush didn't have any experience here, and is known to have ignored the advice of many of his generals.)

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Gosh, and here I'd thought Tena was initially talking about the "got the technicalities down in the loop" pol campaign strategists and candidates. I thought the plumber story was a metaphorical illustration of her point. But that's just me.
I was trying to flatly suggest "experts" don't always get it.

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You're right on the larger point, of course. I just don't think that the Iraq war was a case of us listening to experts.

Although I have some faith in the Obama campaign, it's not quite as much as Tena seems to be expressing, and you're right that it can't be applied to all experts. I think Tena's main point wasn't that they were experts, but that they were experts with a winning track record.

As for me, I think the Obama camp is still figuring things out with regards to the general election, and that's one reason why they're still taking things a little slower now than I think they will as time rolls on. I think we saw a similar pattern in the primaries. Of course, we have fewer months to work with.

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Nice: "
Times Online
Clark Questions McCain's Judgment, Not Patriotism
"

:)

Obama's campaign beat THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY ESTABLISHMENT!

except not really. and even then just barely. and ever since has pretty much just kissed its ass anyway.

and you telling me that the obama campaign is smarter than you are is something i can take your word for, but pardon me if i take offense to your underestimation of my own intelligence thank you very much.

falling back on the idea that 'boy, these guys are smart we should just trust them no matter what' smacks of puppy love and personality cults. i'll be having none of that myself if you don't mind.

My head is about to explode from the 1984 effect of Camp McCain's verbiage. The best quote from earlier: "But spare us the empty talk of ... raising the dialogue in this country." This present nontroversy is really reaching for the stars...

Careful McCain, your slip is showing....

Obama can now come back and say if asked exactly what he said in his speech " no one who has served this country should have that service devalued for political gain"

And Obama stays above the fray!

The problem here is the right has spent a decade insinuating the idea Clark got fired from his last job into the media's consciousness. One thing these turds know how to do is lay the groundwork for their attacks. So if I had to guess, most reporters would look at that quote and think, "Well, duh."

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It's so transparent that this is all they have it's not even funny.

Could they even TRY to run on the issues?

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Clark was the commander of the Kosovo airstrikes, during which NATO casualties were light.

While obviously a different type of war, not such a shabby comparison to Iraq.

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I like Clark and I salute his comments about presidential qualifications, but he made some incendiary remarks about nukes in Kosovo.

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Here is the thing: Clarke is correct; getting shot down and being a POW does not qualify you for the job of the President of the United States.

It's like saying, "I'm qualified to be President because I drove the Oscar Meyer Weiner mobile into Lake Michigan."

How totally F'n irrelevant! Okay, we get it McCain, you were a crappy pilot with a penchant for crashing planes. You never should have made pilot, and if not for your daddy and your grandpa you never would have. But because of your family ties you recieved "rich man's affirmative action" just like your policy twin; George W Bush. And like Dubya you are now trading on your past failures and saying they qualify you for the role as President.

Now, as to this Swindle characters comments about General Clarke I say: so what? Wesley Clarke isn't running for President. Wesley Clarke is affiliated with the Obama campaign, but wasn't until a few short weeks ago. If you want to go after him I say go for it. Or, "Bring it on," in Gooperese.

I could never imagine that the Repugs would turn around and do the very thing they are complaining about. Remember appeasement at the Knesset but now North Korea isn't a state sponsor of terrorism. McSame's campaign already shows what his administration will do. What is really sad is that this isn't really a surprise.

They keep doing it over and over again though. Hypocrisy seems to come quite naturally to them. As does underestimating the American people. "Do as I say, not as I do" is not much of a campaign slogan.

I really don't think this was a planned good cop / bad cop routine but I think it's going to work out pretty well along those lines. My guess is that the Obama campaign was caught a bit flatfooted yesterday, but they seem to have gotten the hang of it today. I was pretty pissed when I thought the whole "reject and denounce" routine was going to be rolled out against Clark, but so far today I'm much more (though still cautiously) optimistic.

I am in no position to prove or disprove the idea of collusion. That said, Rove & al used to use this technique to great effect (get an "independent" supporter to say something deadly and provocative that will grab the headlines then get the candidate to quickly disassociate himself, so that the candidate gets all of the benefits of the attack with a minimum of blowback). It is not really that much of a stretch to imagine that Obama's campaign was just indulging in the sincerest form of flattery here.

We need NC Steve's BAAAHHH'd perspective here on the MSM's sheep mentality. I think that Obama's camp is using that to good effect here.

The swiftboat bunch just can't help themselves. If this is a pissing contest between the swifties and Wes Clark, my money is on Clark.

An added advantage of this dustup is that it reminds the Dem base of the vile swiftboaters and puts them squarely in McCain's camp.

... puts the swiftboaters in McCain's camp.

OK lets watch the fallout from this latest salvo, and grade the MSM for their attention to detail!

It is clear from any reading of Wes Clark's exchange with Bob Schieffer, that Clark was not denigrating McCain's record. Clark's military experience exceeds that of MCcCain's, so who better to make such a comparison between military experience and presidential capability?, Clark simply stated the obvious...we are not electing a hero-in-chief but a commander-in-chief, whose qualities and flaws must be thoughtfully and carefully examined. Schieffer seems to have drunk the Kool-aid. !"Really!?" was his response to Clark's reasoned opinion that falling out of a plane was not de facto qualification to be president. Who may I asks really thinks it is, anyway?

I just want to take this opportunity to say that you have a lovely smile, Nina. :)

The MSM is not interested in debating the merits of what was said by anyone. Nor are they interested in fact checking. They are only interested in pie fights. The more pies thrown the better. It's drama. It's like WWE smackdown wrestling, only with suits and no metalhead music. American truth seekers are left on their own. I have to believe that what will resonate are Clark's truthful words: being shot down doesn't automatically qualify you to be pres.

"....we are not electing a hero-in-chief but a commander-in-chief, whose qualities and flaws must be thoughtfully and carefully examined."

Nice phrasing -- as long as I attribute it to you, may I use it in talking to my unrepentent Republican friends?

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I'm trying to imagine how you'd word that attribution… ;)

Good point, Ben. To say I am quoting someone named "LovelyNina" might not elicit the respect her statement deserves.

Halperin has some additional quotes from the McCain conference call. Hilarious.

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Link?

It occurred to me that what would have made this better is if Clark had said "crashing your plane five times and being shot down doesn't qualify you to be president..." then we would be hearing that repeated over and over.

Exactly!

Everytime McFuddle or his campaign raises questions or attacks on Gen. Clark or Obama over this issue, they should attack McFuddle over his and McBush's claim that McFuddle deserves credit for the new GI Benefits bill. Talk about total bullshit! Hit them hard over this total farse and force a response from McFuddle to show where he supported this bill! It's time for the HAMMER to come down on McFuddle's head over this LIE!

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It's like saying, "I'm qualified to be President because I drove the Oscar Meyer Weiner mobile into Lake Michigan."

I didn't think anybody remembered that, I barely made it out alive..

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I have been saying this for months because in light of what the United States did with torture under the guide of Bush, being tortured is not an automatic genuflection these days.

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I know that I am in the minority on this, but this is another good day for mcbush. They will keep arguing all day long for days and days about who has the more stellar military record. Gee, let's get into details, did clark spend 5 years in a pow camp? How many troops did clark lead in nam vs. how many pilots did mcbush lead. Etc., Etc. Great idea.

By the way, clark was fired as head of nato by Clinton. That's why I never understood why he wanted anything to do with the clintons. Something odd there.

This is just brilliant. What was the spread in mcgovern vs nixon by the way?

Actually, he was forced out of his NATO command early by the JCS, and in particular by Hugh Shelton. Clinton was angered, but chose to back the chain of command rather than interfere with it--it was a no-win scenario for him. interferring in JCS personnel decisions on Clark's behalf would have been as damaging to Clark's career as not intervening. Either way, Clark would have had to retire.

Shelton said he forced Clark out of the SACEUR command because of serious, but unspecified, "character and integrity" issues that would keep him from ever voting for Clark as president, but would never say what they were. This is clearly an attempt by the Republicans to try to draw that out and undermine Clark's utility as a surrogate.

Swiftboat him, in other words.

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My understanding is that it was done at the direction of clinton because clark was becoming to politically powerful and was playing the nato command for political purposes in clinton's mind. By the way, there are always three sides to every story as you well know.

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He did crash 5 different airplanes I mean maybe the Navy should bill him for those.

That is what I said a few days ago. Crash five times, so?? Crash five times at a cost to the taxpayers in today's money equivalent would be "X" amount of dollars, that sinks in.

Imagine if he had crashed the new F22

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I didn't applaud this comment of yours before, so I will now.

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my only concern about the Swiftboater gambit is that based on what he said in yesterday's speech Obama is obligated to issue a statement in defense of Clark. If the statement doesn't set just the right tone it might provide McCain a chance to pivot from Clark to Obama.

A relatively bland condemnation of anyone who would denigrate any proud service member's service is in order from the Obama campaign.

Of course, Clark is a big boy more than capable of defending himself against either McCain or his Swiftboat toadie. I am not sure Clark needs to come out breathing fire.

What do you all think?

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The real problem here stems from a very deep problem we have here - we fucking worship uniforms - especially military. We didn't always - the military did this to us.

I hate everything about it and it has gotten worse and worse over my lifetime and as WWII vets die off - it's embarrassing the extent to which the whole military thing has become almost metaphysical.

You don't dare disrespect a uniform in this country and that's just stupid.

Tena: After Vietnam, this is a very touchy feel issue. The pendulum just swings the other way and you cannot say s**t.

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Now, that is a spot on post and very accurate. That is the mindset of the electorate and obama knows and recognizes that. That is why he doesn't want anything to do with this dispute. We can whine and complain and try to pick apart mcbush's military record all day long, but we are a very, very small minority of the electorate. 80% or more will see it completely differently. Therefore, politically this is a total lose, lose situation for obama. I would hope that freaking clark would keep his mouth shut on this and let it ride off into the sunset. Every day that this argument continues is a bad day for obama.

I don't know. I think Obama has managed to keep himself out of this, despite the McCain camp's effort to drag him into it. I think this is very much a McCain vs. Clark issue.

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I was watching cnn last night when I was posting to see how the right-wing media was playing this issue and you should have saw the ridiculous hit job on obama generated by clark's gaffe. It was really, really bad. The right-wing media will tie obama into this all day long, as will mcbush, the candidate of the right-wing media. It was awful. The statement was totally spun as an attack on mcbush's patriotism, not even his record, but his freaking patriotism?????? Give me a break, this is not good.

Exactly. As CT Voter notes above, the NY Times headline of the story reads "Clark questions McCain's judgement, not patriotism." Obama gets no mention at all. In other words, Obama is getting a free ride here - he enjoys all of the benefits of an attack on McCain with almost none of the blowback.

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Dude, watch some cnn clips from yesterday and I am sure fox. How many people in middle america read the NY Times? The devil paper according to the republicans. CNN did a montage of statements from dem pols calling into question mcbush's military service claiming that it was an obama campaign strategy, with the obvious bs qualifier, and then twisted the statements into an attack on mcbush's patriotism, not judgment, and then had a last clip of mcbush saying that he was proud of his service and patriotism. It was worse than a campaign commerical for mcbush.

What the heck, dear Michael, perhaps you are right. I am afraid that I am in no position to say. I do not get cable, so I am totally disconnected with how the story is being presented in the cable news outlets. It seems to be playing well in the fora which I do experience (NPR, NYT, WaPo, etc), but if you tell me that it is being spun against us in FOX and CNN, I will have to take your word for it.

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So in essence, you are the very definition of an insular Democrat who doesn't know what the vast majority of people are hearing/seeing on the news and thus doesn't really have much of a basis upon which to judge any of these matters except insofar as they are recevied by the well-educated, bris and chablis set.

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Are you suggesting that Fox News and CNN are the bases on which we should be judging matters?

There are two separate things here: (1) Judging the events themselves. I think using good, reliable sources is the best way to do that. (2) Judging the public reaction to the events. Here, those that use good, reliable sources might be at a disadvantage.

Don't suggest that the public reaction to the events is the only valid way of looking at things, however.

Besides, judging from his outfit, he appears more likely to be eating haggis than eating brie. (Bris is something altogether different, and I'm assuming that wasn't the word you meant to use.)

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See I have never gotten a decent explanation for why the lives of cops should mean more to the law than the lives of the rest of us. Cops have guns for god's sake. Why is it a bigger deal to shoot a cop than it is to shoot some innocent bystander? I never have understood this attitude toward authority. And it runs deep because authority has worked overtime to make sure it does.

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Because if you shoot a cop, you're obviously guilty of lots of other crimes, as well.

And you call yourself a lawyer. Sheesh.

(On a more upbeat note: here's a local story where someone wasn't prosecuted for shooting a cop.)

Wait, what?

Are you kidding?

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I'm kidding about everything but the parenthetical.

Oh, and that Tena calls herself a lawyer. (Presumably for good reason.)

Phew. Good thing I asked before I posted my super-snarky response. haha

I understand your position, Tena.

I think the best way to explain it is by saying that society has placed people in different categories of societal value. I think it's always been that way.

If there is an authority influence, I'd say it's natural - and it's been around since there were those who were tasked with protecting and serving.

If one of your own goes down - regardless of who "your own" covers - you're going to be more agitated and more dedicated to righting that wrong. It follows that if a judge, prosecutor, detective or beat cop gets killed, the powers that be turn out in force to bring the perpetrator(s) to justice.

It's also supposed to have a bit of a deterrent effect. That's why many criminal organizations around the world put cops off-limits for years - it just wasn't worth the heat to kill law enforcement officials.

I'm not saying it's right. But that societal hierarchy is just fact. And my apologies if I'm saying stuff you already know. Just trying to answer the question you asked. :)

The authority comes from America's puritanical roots, and the automatic obedience to god and those who claim to speak for god.

As you well know, the power structure was all men...stupid, small-minded evil men with control in mind and nothing else.

Absent a draft, a soldier must earn resoect just like any other citizen, and "showing up" is not enough. In fact, the onus is far greater as the soldier, like the cop, has been given, beyond all reason, the authority to kill.

This authority drives the Old Sooth, and why many predict Obama cannot win there.

However, this authority has a weak spot under our Constitution:

It can be told "no more."

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"The Old South." Is that like "Old Europe?" Except occupied by stupid, small-minded, evil men who are control freaks and have the authority to kill? And are you contending there is no reason anyone should be given authority to kill? And when you say "...drives the old South..." and "...why Obama cannot win there...," I'm sure you must be right. But can you connect the dots a little better? Thanks.

Clark's point is a valid application of the critical difference between tactical and strategic thinking.
If you need someone to lead a charge up a hill, McCain's your man.
When it comes time to decide which hill to take, or even to take a hill, McCain's impetuousness, bullheadedness, appalling academics and lack of self discipline dictate that he not be in the room.
An example: His pig-headed insistence on remaining in Iraq, while not considering the opportunity cost of pinning down nearly all of the Army's available fighting strength. This emboldens our real enemies and gives them a chance to inflict a death of a thousand cuts in a proxy war.
Apparently John McCain failed to learn the most important lesson of his service in Vietnam. It was not a Vietnamese missile that put him in that prison camp. It was Russian.
It is in no way a slight on McCain's patriotism, service and honor to honestly observe that he is not general officer material. Clearly, the Navy reached that very solution.
Could we elect a worse president than Bush? Yes we could.

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Well said and succint, Xanderthal.

I can't believe you would denigrate someone's service to The Weiner.

I dont think McCain's military records have ever been released. Shouldn't he release HIS before demanding other peoples?

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A little perspective here on this issue as well as others. The dems are asking middle america to take a leap of faith on electing the first african american president in us history in, as far as the vast majority of the populace is concerned, a time of war, with international terrorism as a major threat. At the same time that we are asking for that leap of faith, we also want that populace to accept a complete change of mindset concerning the merits of military service. It really isn't what most people think it is and is meaningless concerning whether service to our country should carry any weight on whether a person should be president. On top of that we want the people to understand and accept the nuances of telecom immunity, when all they hear is that the dem nominee is being soft on terrorism by being against upgrading one of the "weapons" keeping america safe. I don't think the general population is ready for all this "change" in mindset at one time.

I know the country is ready for a major shift, but do people really think it is ready for all this? Also, wouldn't it be better to play it somewhat safe to get the win, and potentially a landslide, as opposed to worring about some of these non-issues in the grand scheme of things and pissing away a win? I dunno, I would rather take the win as opposed to getting wrapped up on some of these issues.

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A little perspective here on this issue as well as others. The dems are asking middle america to take a leap of faith on electing the first african american president in us history in, as far as the vast majority of the populace is concerned, a time of war, with international terrorism as a major threat

You aren't seriously suggesting a LEAP OF FAITH is required to elect a black man, are you? Holy shit. There's a freudian revelation, if you don't mean what you say.

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For some people, probably many people yes, for me obviously no. If it wasn't why haven't we had an african american president before, or a woman or an hispanic, or an asian, or an eskimo, or etc.? Why are they usually always old white guys? Unless, I am missing something. Also, maybe "leap of faith" weren't the appropriate words, the point was something new and different and a big "change." If you can figure out a better set of words to convey that point, please do.

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Considering that we haven't even had a president descended from a white, European ethnic group whose ancestors arrived in the US during the immigration waves of the 1880's-1920's, I'd say yes it is a pretty big leap. Hell, we haven't even had a Catholic president except for Kennedy.

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You know, it really kind of makes you wonder when you narrow it down that much. I'm not a big conspiracy theory nut, but it is kind of strange when you think about it.

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I don't think it's wise to try and completely change the mindset concerning the merit of military service at any point in time, is it? We might need them for something legitimate. They were very helpful in New Orleans, for example...and they might have been effective in Afghanistan, given a chance. This is a little about having a plumber screw up your plumbing and deciding: "Boy, you know, the wrench may not be such a hot idea after all."

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You get no argument from me on your point. It would be nice if other people saw it that way.

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Do you know my ex plumber? He was union and everything but didn't know the crack in his rear from the hole in my main intake line.

This is not about the candidate himself, and Clark obvioulsy opened himself up to this. This is not a function of Obama rejecting this. This is a function of playing on a dumb playing field.

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I like that McCain's surrogate is 'Swindle'-- while Obama's 'informal advisor' is named Beers.

Cheers,
jw1

But....I made this point yesterday on fighter jock personality traits. Both Lt. McGoo and George have those traits in common. They both are shoot from the hip yahoos that thrive on adrenaline, think their shit don't stink and react without thinking first. That's really good for a fighter pilot but, not for a president or a general. Doesn't mean it will make them good fighter pilots, just good for a fighter pilot.

Whether is Gen. Clark or Gen. Patreaus or any of the other generals we've seen on TV, similarities in their personalities suggest desired personalities for a command position.

Lt. McGoo just isn't commanding officer right stuff. Obama appears to have these traits in spades. (oohhhhh, did I just say that, oooppppps....sorry) All other rationales aside, I would follow Obama, and wish to frag Lt. McCains ass.

Lt. McCain's level of incompetence is platoon leader at best.


BTW>>>>>>>
The image of Lt. McGoo piloting the Oscar Meyer Wiener mobile with his hair(???) on fire down Michigan avenue, splattering civilians on the sidewalk with 500 pound mustard bombs and fragmentation pickles, turning around to laugh at who he hit, taking a brick through the windshield, spinning out of control into Lake Michigan, being dragged out of the water by a bunch of pissed off ladies in fuck’me pumps and beaten with handbags to within inches of his life has now made working impossible for me for the rest of the day. Sounds like a scene for Scarry Movie 5. Hey, wait a minute, isn't Leslie Neilsen about the same age as McCain? Thanks niselb!!! Made my day.

Lt. McGoo just isn't commanding officer right stuff. Obama appears to have these traits in spades. (oohhhhh, did I just say that, oooppppps....sorry) All other rationals aside, I would follow Obama, and wish to frag Lt. McCains ass.

Lt. McCain's level of incompetence is platoon leader at best.

Truth is apparently a stranger to Swindle.

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So does this count as demeaning Clark's service?

I think it counts as swiftboating.

Nice of McCain to remind us all what a little turd he really is.

John McCain: He puts the 'crotch' in crotchety.

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after the events of this week, i think clark should definitely be obama's VP.

i don't know he seemed a bit off message with the 'no executive experience' stuff. muddled the point somewhat.

i love this..now i want to see obama camp express as much outrage if not more over such demeaning comments attacking clark's legacy....obama camp better impress me with their response to this..and i thank the mccain surrogate for evening up the score......what a boon that has just been handed to obama camp! i am giddy with joy....clark was nowhere as insulting as this last comment implies...in fact, clark is right and as much as i feel that obama is the best man for the job, i was not impress with their wimpy attitude towards clark's critique....

it is a fact that being a POW does not automatically qualify you for CIC...to give McCain's faulty logic legs to stand on was a big boo boo in my eyes...

If the McCainiacs demand Obama reject Clark's remarks (which he did), then shouldn't McCain reject Swindle's smear of Clark?

Obama has rejected this sort of thing from either side. Shouldn't McCain make the same statement?

Round and round we go.

Unfortunately Sen. Obama's demand that we honor people's service would seem to extend only to John McCain. As reported on this front page.

Wes Clark, who also served, has been left by some curb in Chicago. Susan Rice was at it again this morning.

Check out Campaign Diaries's describing how Clark's comments are being distorted, and dismissing the parallels to swift boats here.

Ahhh . . . the Marionette Media. The GOP pulls the strings and the airheads open their mouths and spout the latest "outrage". What a perfect election system to put another Republican in office.

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Ah, yes, Chicago Todd.
Fop News and Co. can get their knickers in a bind over just about anything. Even Wall-e is a lefty boogeyman:

http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/01/right-wing-hates-wall-e/

This is such CRAP. You can't criticize anyone in the military because it's unpatriotic or some such nonsense. Reminds me of Bush insisting for several years that you couldn't criticize anyone in government because it was patriotic.

Just because someone get a government paycheck, or signs themselves up for the military, they do not get a blank check.

That goes right along with Support Our Troops crap. Yeah sure, support anyone who willingly, by entering the military, likely condones violating their religious faith by killing other people because some other demi-human orders them to.

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This demonstrates the difference between people who know what they are doing and why (McCain's camp) and those who don't (Obama's camp). McCain's camp is playing this perfectly and Obama's camp is fumbling and stumbling--falling all over itself trying not to look weak by being weak!

The McCain people are denying an attack on Clark's record which is precisely what their surrogate did and he did so with that very intent. This is not something that just "happened"... it was well thought out and planned by the McCain campaign. They are not conceding anything. The purpose of the statement was to besmirch Clark's reputation and service--quite obviously and to take advantage of the wimpiness of the Obama camp because they have already stabbed Clark in the back on this issue having condemned him for attacking McCain's service when he did nothing of the kind.

The Obama camp is reacting out of fear the mean Republicans will criticize them for being weak on national security so they are trying to avoid that criticism by being submissive which only makes them look wimpy and amateurish.

The McCain camp is acting in a cold, calculated manner---boldy lieing because they know the Obama camp doesn't have the brains or the balls to attack them for their lies. They assume, particularly after the chickenhearted disavowal of Clark's remarks yesterday, that the Obama camp is too afraid of the issue of military service to do anything about their lies. Because this is just about the only subject McCain has the advantage on, they have concocted this little broughaha to keep the themse out there and the idea brewing that what is important is McCain's military "credentials" as though being a prisoner of any kind qualifies one to lead the most powerful country on earth. It doesn't. Clark said so without criticizing McCain's record and then the chickens at Camp Obama promptly ran away from the truth of the matter and acted in concert with the more experienced and focused McCain campaign in moving the Republican message forward.

Smart move team Obama!

It's sad of course, but that's what ya get when you start listening to the smart set in DC! You remember them, the people who brought you the Iraq war authorization in order to immunize Democrats from being criticized for being weak on the war on terra? So here we go again folks, Obama has the nomination so he wheels hard to his right, running from his base, his beliefs and the truth ostensibly to be a stronger candidate when, in fact, all he is doing is eroding his support across the board, showing weakness, a lack of conviction and generally behaving like a minor leaguer in the big leagues.

It's a real shame that he's committing this oft repeated Democratic mistake too since no matter what he does the Republicans will have the same criticism of him and his "weakness" on national security. What he and the Democrats generally should do is to quit apologizing for being right about national security issues. Go ahead and point out that McCain's service was many things, but it was not preparation for executive responsibility and decision-making just as Wes Clark so deftly and correctly and fairly pointed out on Sunday!

Whatever...

On this issue, I agree with you.

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oleeb, read above posters...longtime campaigners are SMARTER than you. They are experts. What do you know? (Rolling eyes.) So shush, now.
FWIW, I think Obama is going to be sitting in the Oval Office come January anyhow, thank the fates.

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It's hard to jibe this defense:

"It certainly was not an attack on his service - no one would ever disparage that. Everyone honors Gen. Clark's service and sacrifice -- he's literally bled for our country. It was about policy disputes."

With this statement:

"General Clark, as high-ranking as he is, his record in his last command I think was somewhat less than stellar."


How is that statement not denigrating Gen. Clark's service? And why do we continue to be wrapped in this belief that military service prepares one for "leadership" in civilian life?
The service academies are great institutions and prepare people for roles of leadership in the military. Out here in the world, it a different game altogether.

Yeah, I was trying to figure out how that comment constitutes a "policy dispute."

Oleeb, i cannot help but agree with you 100%. I really hope Obama camp get it together and soon!

If McCain is going to run on his military experience he should release his military records. Kerry did. Why doesn't McCain?

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Uh, kerry did not and that's one of the reasons why the swift boat crap got traction. To this day he has not released all his records, some, but not all.

Obama is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. If he backs Clark, then he's damned for "Questioning McCain's service and patriotism". If he doesn't back Clark, then he looks like a wimp and a back-stabber.

The real problem has been touched upon in earlier blogs, the "Sensationalist Press". They are all owened by huge multinational corporations who really don't give a rats ass about informing people about the nuts and bolts of a story. The big headline and inflammatory statements are what sells papers, magazines, and what gathers the veiwers to their channels. All of the major networks have had cutbacks in their news departments. It's all about selling advertising space.

It doesn't matter what Clark actually said or not. It is all about how much reaction can be generated from it (no matter how much twisting is required).

This is the state of our democracy. Capitalism left unadulteratedly to the Capitalist. There is nothing wrong with capitalism as long as someone is keeping an eye on the capitalist. That usually is the job of the press. Oops, I guess we know what that means.

It’s a delicate dance, and John McCain is ‘liable to break a hip’
Long-time readers know that I’ve been emphasizing John McCain’s dozens of major policy flip-flops for months now, hoping that this would a) catch on as a campaign issue; and b) undermine McCain’s unearned reputation for principled stands on the issues.

I’m beginning to think that maybe, just maybe, the criticism is taking root. Consider yesterday’s “Cafferty File” on CNN:


In order for McCain to win in November, he has to appeal to both the traditional Republican base and to Independents. Dana Milbank, in The Washington Post says that’s a delicate dance. And if McCain’s not careful, ‘he’s liable to break a hip.’ Of course, any doctor will tell you a broken hip can be very difficult to recover from.”

The past couple of weeks have been especially difficult when it comes to McCain flip-flops.

* McCain supported the drilling moratorium; now he’s against it.

* McCain strongly opposes a windfall-tax on oil company profits. Three weeks earlier, he was perfectly comfortable with the idea.

* McCain thought Bush’s warrantless-wiretap program circumvented the law; now he believes the opposite.

* McCain defended “privatizing” Social Security. Now he says he’s against privatization (though he actually still supports it.)

Wait, I’m not done with the last two weeks yet….

* McCain wanted to change the Republican Party platform to protect abortion rights in cases of rape and incest. Now he doesn’t.

* McCain thought the estate tax was perfectly fair. Now he believes the opposite.

* He opposed indefinite detention of terrorist suspects. When the Supreme Court reached the same conclusion, he called it “one of the worst decisions in the history of this country.”

* McCain said he would “not impose a litmus test on any nominee.” He used to promise the opposite.

And these come after these other reversals from April and May:

* McCain believes the telecoms should be forced to explain their role in the administration’s warrantless surveillance program as a condition for retroactive immunity. He used to believe the opposite.

* McCain supported storing spent nuclear fuel at Yucca Mountain in Nevada. Now he believes the opposite.

* McCain supported moving “towards normalization of relations” with Cuba. Now he believes the opposite.

* McCain believed the U.S. should engage in diplomacy with Hamas. Now he believes the opposite.

* McCain believed the U.S. should engage in diplomacy with Syria. Now he believes the opposite.

* He argued the NRA should not have a role in the Republican Party’s policy making. Now he believes the opposite.

* McCain supported his own lobbying-reform legislation from 1997. Now he doesn’t.

* He wanted political support from radical televangelists like John Hagee and Rod Parsley. Now he doesn’t.

* McCain supported the Lieberman/Warner legislation to combat global warming. Now he doesn’t.

And these are the flip-flops I’ve noticed earlier:

* McCain pledged in February 2008 that he would not, under any circumstances, raise taxes. Specifically, McCain was asked if he is a “‘read my lips’ candidate, no new taxes, no matter what?” referring to George H.W. Bush’s 1988 pledge. “No new taxes,” McCain responded. Two weeks later, McCain said, “I’m not making a ‘read my lips’ statement, in that I will not raise taxes.”

* McCain is both for and against a “rogue state rollback” as a focus of his foreign policy vision.

* McCain says he considered and did not consider joining John Kerry’s Democratic ticket in 2004.

* In 1998, he championed raising cigarette taxes to fund programs to cut underage smoking, insisting that it would prevent illnesses and provide resources for public health programs. Now, McCain opposes a $0.61-per-pack tax increase, won’t commit to supporting a regulation bill he’s co-sponsoring, and has hired Philip Morris’ former lobbyist as his senior campaign adviser.

* McCain has changed his economic worldview on multiple occasions.

* McCain has changed his mind about a long-term U.S. military presence in Iraq on multiple occasions.

* McCain is both for and against attacking Barack Obama over his former pastor at his former church.

* McCain believes Americans are both better and worse off than they were before Bush took office.

* McCain is both for and against earmarks for Arizona.

* McCain believes his endorsement from radical televangelist John Hagee was both a good and bad idea.

* McCain’s first mortgage plan was premised on the notion that homeowners facing foreclosure shouldn’t be “rewarded” for acting “irresponsibly.” His second mortgage plan took largely the opposite position.

* McCain vowed, if elected, to balance the federal budget by the end of his first term. Soon after, he decided he would no longer even try to reach that goal.

* In February 2008, McCain reversed course on prohibiting waterboarding.

* McCain used to champion the Law of the Sea convention, even volunteering to testify on the treaty’s behalf before a Senate committee. Now he opposes it.

* McCain was a co-sponsor of the DREAM Act, which would grant legal status to illegal immigrants’ kids who graduate from high school. Now he’s against it.

* On immigration policy in general, McCain announced in February 2008 that he would vote against his own legislation.

* In 2006, McCain sponsored legislation to require grassroots lobbying coalitions to reveal their financial donors. In 2007, after receiving “feedback” on the proposal, McCain told far-right activist groups that he opposes his own measure.

* McCain said before the war in Iraq, “We will win this conflict. We will win it easily.” Four years later, McCain said he knew all along that the war in Iraq war was “probably going to be long and hard and tough.”

* McCain said he was the “greatest critic” of Rumsfeld’s failed Iraq policy. In December 2003, McCain praised the same strategy as “a mission accomplished.” In March 2004, he said, “I’m confident we’re on the right course.” In December 2005, he said, “Overall, I think a year from now, we will have made a fair amount of progress if we stay the course.”

* McCain went from saying he would not support repeal of Roe v. Wade to saying the exact opposite.

* McCain went from saying gay marriage should be allowed, to saying gay marriage shouldn’t be allowed.

* McCain criticized TV preacher Jerry Falwell as “an agent of intolerance” in 2002, but then decided to cozy up to the man who said Americans “deserved” the 9/11 attacks.

* McCain used to oppose Bush’s tax cuts for the very wealthy, but he reversed course in February.

* On a related note, he said 2005 that he opposed the tax cuts because they were “too tilted to the wealthy.” By 2007, he denied ever having said this, and insisted he opposed the cuts because of increased government spending.

* In 2000, McCain accused Texas businessmen Sam and Charles Wyly of being corrupt, spending “dirty money” to help finance Bush’s presidential campaign. McCain not only filed a complaint against the Wylys for allegedly violating campaign finance law, he also lashed out at them publicly. In April, McCain reached out to the Wylys for support.

* McCain supported a major campaign-finance reform measure that bore his name. In June 2007, he abandoned his own legislation.

* McCain opposed a holiday to honor Martin Luther King, Jr., before he supported it.

* McCain was against presidential candidates campaigning at Bob Jones University before he was for it.

* McCain was anti-ethanol. Now he’s pro-ethanol.

* McCain was both for and against state promotion of the Confederate flag.

* McCain decided in 2000 that he didn’t want anything to do with former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, believing he “would taint the image of the ‘Straight Talk Express.’” Kissinger is now the Honorary Co-Chair for his presidential campaign in New York.

Confronted with the inconsistencies in McCain’s record in March, the senator’s aides told the New York Times that the senator “has evolved rather than switched positions in his 25-year career.” That’s a perfectly sensible spin — when a politician holds one position, and then, for apparently political reasons, decides to embrace the polar opposite position, it’s only natural for his or her aides to say the politician’s position has “evolved.”

But in McCain’s case, the spin is wholly unfulfilling. First, McCain sells himself as a pol who never sways with the wind, and whose willingness to be consistent in the face of pressure is proof of his character. Second, Republicans have spent the last four years or so making policy reversals the single most serious political crime in presidential politics. The dreaded “flip-flop” is, according to the GOP, the latest cardinal sin for someone seeking national office.

And if we’re playing by Republican rules, McCain’s “evolutions” should be a fairly serious problem. I’m beginning to think they might be.


Watch the video: http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/15924.html

Interesting that McCain should bring up fellow POWs. Dr. Phillip Butler attended the Naval Academy with McCain and had already been at the POW camp for two and a half years when McCain arrived and was there until they both went home. He has known McCain for more than 60 years. He has a different variation of McCain's spin on that time and some strong arguments for why he believes it would be dangerous for the country if McCain were elected. It is an interesting look into the POW experience. Butler is a highly decorated Navy combat veteran pilot who was awarded two purple hearts, two legion of merits, two bronze stars and two silver stars. McCain was awarded a bronze star and a purple heart and Butler honors him for his service but warns that McCain has always had a violent and explosive temper. Read the entire article in "Today in the Military" from March 27,2008. Please share this article with military families and others. The link:
http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,164859_1,00.html

I found this interesting article written by Frank Keating, former Governor of Oklahoma, defending McCain against the statement by Clark.

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