Poll: Obama Holds Huge Advantage Over McCain On Energy
A new Gallup poll finds that Obama holds a huge and striking advantage over McCain on which is more trusted to handle energy issues.
And not only that, it also finds that energy policy, by one measure, has now become the number one concern of voters.
The poll finds that Obama leads McCain by 19 points (47%-28%) on the question of who would do a better job handling energy policy, including gas prices. It also finds that 51% say that energy and gas prices are "extremely important" in determining their vote, higher than the economy (49%) or Iraq (44%).
It's worth pointing out that energy policy is central to McCain's strategy -- pushing an energy plan has emerged as one of the key ways in which he's hoping to achieve separation from Bush and the GOP.
However effective that larger effort may prove, on the straight-up question of which candidate is more trusted to handle the actual specifics of energy policy, Obama is simply crushing McCain.















But McCain himself said on the transcendent issues of the day, he is in agreement with Bush.
So I guess McCain must not feel that energy is a transcendent issue, putting him at odds with the American people.
Man, there is so much fodder for the Obama campaign to work with here.
June 24, 2008 1:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
that's pretty good, gotta say. they really could utilize that in just those words.
June 24, 2008 1:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
As a casual observer, I found it hard not to conclude that Obama's criticisms of the gas tax holiday is what helped the swing in Indiana and North Carolina. I'm open to being corrected, but I am inclined to believe the Obama campaign learned the same lesson.
As such, I think we should expect, in that first town hall/debate, Obama will hit hard the false promises inherent in the off-shore drilling proposals out of the McCain campaign.
Furthermore, I suspect that the Obama campaign might be holding back some criticisms on this and other issues (McCain's law-breaking regarding public financing) to have some zingers at their first debate.
June 24, 2008 1:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
The deeper point about the gas tax is about whether our candidates are offering the same old shit or a commitment to face up to real problems.
Real solutions to problems are often hard, actually require some time, patience, investment, maybe even dare we say, sacrifice. It is huge gambit since passing out candy is a time tested electoral strategy. It is also why we are in such deep doodoo on so many long range systemic problems from health care, to education, to infrastructure, climate, budget and energy.
Obama can put McCain on the defensive by pointing out that providing more oil for consumption makes out global warming problem worse. You drill so you can consume more; but that is precisely the cause of rising prices and rising oceans. McCain says he wants to do something about global warming this just unmasks his real intentions.
Drilling has no chance of changing prices anytime soon if ever, but it risk making our problems worse. To say nothing of the risk of destroying some of our most valuable natural territory if there were to be a oil spill.
June 24, 2008 1:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is very good news. It's also good news that people are saying energy is a top priority. I wish it wasn't just gas prices - I hope it's more than that and that people understand that it's a bigger problem.
I paid almost $5 a gallon yesterday for gas here. It was $4.99, so you might as well say $5. That is really hurting people from all angles. I'm not complaining because we need to end our dependence on fossil fuels and I think oil was underpriced for decades. But I'm not hurting and I know other people really are and at that price, I can sure see it.
caveat: gas is always higher here and throughout the mountain west.
June 24, 2008 1:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes. I think this poll shows that voters are smarter than they're often given credit for, something you've said all along, Tena.
Glad to see they can see past a pander (or two, or three...).
June 24, 2008 1:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
I hope OB really starts to stress the off-shore drillling issue to show what a pander and bs position it is, just like the gas tax holiday.
June 24, 2008 1:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
The gas tax pander was an illustration of one of the best things about the Obama campaign: the decision to actually talk to voters as if we're adults on many issues, rather than rubes who can be fooled with a few buzzwords. Sadly, McCain used to be someone who did that, too. While I still disagreed with him on most issues, I could at least respectfully disagree. Now that he finally has the nomination, he has apparently decided to abandon that in favor of "whatever may work."
June 24, 2008 1:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
So in the first debate, they ask what is your energy policy, Obama says "Tax big oil..." and?
June 24, 2008 1:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
... and, er, all this, Slick:
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/energy/
Anything else I can help you with on the Intertubes?
June 24, 2008 1:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
At a Glance
-Reduce Carbon Emissions 80 Percent by 2050
-Invest in a Clean Energy Future
-Support Next Generation Biofuels
-Set America on Path to Oil Independence
-Improve Energy Efficiency 50 Percent by 2030
-Restore U.S. Leadership on Climate Change
Let's see, I might be mistaken but those all say the same thing. What is his stance on Atomic energy? Wouldn't tapping our own reserves help "Set America on Path to Oil Independence?" Does he back the Mem plan to nationalize America's oil refineries? Does the "next generation of biofuels" include anything besides Illinois Corn? Y'all mantra is "it won't come online for 10 years" he's talking about 2030 and 2050... What's his stance on "clean coal?" How will he tackle the price at the pump today? Hint: any tax on Exxon will be passed on to you.
June 24, 2008 1:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
I hear what you are saying. Still and all, I expect that I need not tell you that it just will not matter. Perhaps a few people will actually listen to what the candidates say in the debates on this issue or (even better) look on their websites and compare the pros and cons of each. Many, many more, however, will simply say "the republicans are in control of the White House right now and fuel is more expensive than I have ever known" and vote accordingly. It is not necessarily fair, but that is just how the cookie crumbles.
June 24, 2008 1:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
True...I hope more look at the Dems in congress and what they've done...block domestic drilling, sue OPEC, propose a nationalization of American refineries.
June 24, 2008 2:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
As opposed to invading Iraq to regain the oil fields for western corporations?
June 24, 2008 2:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Tin Foil futures continue to rise...learn how to make your fortune...
June 24, 2008 2:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
I can understand why you might wish that, and I expect that (to an extent) you will get your wish, but only with regard to congressional races. That is to say, I expect that there are some democratic congressmen and senators out there who will lose votes on account of the high price of fuel (even if they themselves were on the right side of every contested issue). I think that you are rather dreaming, however, if you imagine that voters will (in any sizable numbers) say "I think that the congress has messed up and I will take that into account when voting for president." That might or might not be a sensible approach, but I am hard pressed to find any evidence that any more than a handful of voters ever take that approach every four years. The guy in the White House is much more a focus of the electorates resentments than the 535 members of congress. As I said, it might not be fair, but that is just how the cookie crumbles.
June 24, 2008 2:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wow... So even though the Republicans had complete control of Congress, the Supreme Court, and the White House for almost a decade, and even though all economists, including conservative ones, acknowledge that it could take up to 20 years before the oil that would be extracted with the new drilling that Bush & Mcain propose to maybe have an impact on prices at the pump, you're going to blame the current fiasco on the democrats.
Except there is a little flaw in your argument. Those pesky FACTS don't support any of your ludicrous claims.
I love it how you repugs have no shame! It's going to be so nice kicking your asses come Novemeber!
June 24, 2008 2:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Actually we had control of both houses and the white house for 4 years 2003-2007...which would be not quite half a decade. However, we faced the same problem y'all are currently facing with you Dino's not supporting the leadership in your party. We have more than our share of Rino's, especially in the senate....when did y'alls talking points change from 10 to 20 years before we can produce any oil?
June 24, 2008 2:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fair enough, but I thought that you were on record saying that McCain was a RINO of the first order (you made out that he was the Joe Lieberman of your party, if I recall correctly). If, as I understand you, 1) real republicans have a solution to the energy crises, but RINOs do not, and 2) John McCain is a RINO then how or why should anyone conclude that McCain will have workable solutions to the energy problems we face?
June 24, 2008 3:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's why his policy keeps changing (or flip floping if you prefer) but as bad as his is "The Audacity of Hoping Wind and Solar Fixes this quick" is worse...
June 24, 2008 4:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
Speaking of position papers on energy policy posted to the innertoobzes, is McCain updating his daily to reflect the flippity-floppityness of his fantastic energy strategy?!?
June 24, 2008 2:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Do we need to walk you through the concept of following links and reading? Every one of those items you only "glanced" at is a link to much more detailed items, many of which answer the exact questions you're posing here. If you can't be bothered to read his positions before declaring that "we" don't know what they are, trying to engage in a discussion of the issues is pretty pointless.
I know that the GOP line is that we don't "really" know who Obama is and that he only gives fluffy speeches about hope with no detail, but that doesn't make it true. Seriously, put down the kool-aid.
June 24, 2008 2:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
...sorry, you can't post a link in a debate, the only thing that will be remembered by any that bother to watch will be 2050...and 2030.
June 24, 2008 2:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, and listed a bunch of questions that you assume he won't have answers for in a debate, despite the fact that the answers are in the very document that you couldn't be bothered to take more than "a glance" at. Somehow I expect Obama actually does know his positions, and therefore will have ready answers for those questions you seem to think will trip him up. And not only that, but based on their published positions, it will have more substance than McCain's declaration:
June 24, 2008 3:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oil Independence, at least in my view, is not just an independence from foreign sources of oil. Its independence from ALL oil. That means wind and solar, which have gotten more efficient over the past decade, more research into fusion, and fourth generation biofuels, including algae fuel.
I would like to see Obama stress the above as more of the means and not just an ends of taxing oil companies, as I believe that oil companies need to be a part of the solution. They have the research and distribution infrastructures already in place, so it only makes sense.
However, its still better than McCain's policy, which is akin to treating cocaine addiction by smuggling in cocaine to addicts.
June 24, 2008 2:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Domestic oil is only one aspect of McCain's plan, clean coal, atomic energy, biofuels (beyond IL Corn)hydrgen research are all a part of the list...
June 24, 2008 2:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Its IA corn I believe.
And I certainly don't want 45 new fission plants in this country. Even if we don't get the next Three Mile Island or Chernobyl, one leakage from the storage of that insidious waste is the last thing we need.
And I don't see the point in weening ourselves off Middle East oil if we are going to just wed ourselves to Brazilian sugar ethanol, as McCain wants in addition to drill drill drill.
June 24, 2008 2:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
And "clean coal" is anything but clean. It still worsens the global warming crisis, unless you can somehow prove that it doesn't release CO2 into the atmosphere when its burned.
June 24, 2008 2:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
So let's see...oil out...coal out...sugar ethanol out...atomic energy out... what was his plan again? not the 2030 and 2050 part...how about the 2009 part.
June 24, 2008 2:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Investing in solar and wind technologies, as well as highly efficient biofuels that can be produced domestically (algae is a prime example of that).
Besides, you missed my point. I'm not satisfied with what Obama has said so far about an energy policy and how to go about investing in alternative fuels, but its far and beyond what McCain has suggested.
June 24, 2008 2:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
P.S. you release CO2 into the atmosphere...and you're not even burning.
June 24, 2008 2:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
But my CO2 comes from plants (either directly or indirectly through animals) that took in the same carbon from the atmosphere no more than a few months ago, so the net result is close to zero. Coal releases CO2 that has been sequestered in the ground for the past few million years or so, resulting in a (large) net increase of atmospheric carbon.
June 24, 2008 2:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
And this is more than just a matter of what it's doing to our individual pocketbooks. It's having a serious impact on our economy and cannot be ignored. Obama will speak to this and people are ready to listen. Looking forward to the debates. I expect that McCain will yammer and generally look like a deer in the headlights.
June 24, 2008 1:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'd like to see Sen. Obama make a commitment much like what "Fire-breathing Liberal" Bob Wexler calls Manhattan Project II, an all-out, superiorly funded (and $300 million would be a drop in the bucket, Sen. McGimmick!) devotion of some of our best scientific minds to the harnessing of various energy sources for all of the things we need energy for. I venture to say that, were we to make this a national priority, we could all be driving cars capable of current performance (speed, comfort, etc.) powered by some alternative source within the next decade.
I tell ya, Bob Wexler's one to watch on the national scene. Dude's got his shit together.
June 24, 2008 1:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Watch these numbers after the first debate: McCain says "...that the United States must pursue a number of options in seeking energy self sufficiency, including nuclear, hydrogen, alternative bio fuels, coal and new technology in domestic oil sources..." and Obama says "windfall tax on big oil...blah blah 2030...blah blah 2050..." 67% Support Offshore Drilling, 64% Expect it Will Lower Prices http://rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/67_support_offshore_drilling_64_expect_it_will_lower_prices
June 24, 2008 1:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hmmmm. After the first debate, in which Obama explains that off-shore drilling will not have any effect on the price of gas, but will enrich the pockets of oil companies, I expect the energy gap between McCain and Obama (pun intended) will grow wider.
June 24, 2008 2:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
The Florida survey also found that McCain currently leads Obama in the state by a 47% to 39% margin. Six percent (6%) said they would vote for some other candidate while 8% are undecided.
However, after voters were told that McCain favored offshore drilling and Obama opposed it, McCain’s lead increased to eleven points, 49% to 38%. While a three-point net gain is not stunning, it is significant that the issue didn’t push voters towards Obama.
http://rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/florida/election_2008_florida_presidential_election
Maybe...maybe not...
June 24, 2008 2:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Stunning? Not really, when off-shore drilling is portrayed as the solution to high gas prices.
June 24, 2008 2:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
The price of propane has gone up 100% since I moved here to CT, six years ago. I am quite certain that when I get the bill for the next shipment, in October, I'll be stunned at how much it is.
I'll be able to afford it, but it's going to be tough. This scene is going to be played out all over the country.
It's not just gas that will get people's attention. It's those first heating bills that will start arriving in October (in the Northeast) that will generate an uproar.
June 24, 2008 1:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sure would be nice if we were tapped into more natural gas and oil from a reliable source like...us for instance.
June 24, 2008 2:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Tapping into American oil or natural gas isn't going to lower the price of oil, since it's set by world-wide demand.
June 24, 2008 2:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
...then why sue OPEC to force an increase in output? Why ask the Saudis for a 500,000 bpd increase if it won't help at all? What is the left-wing-econuttiest low ball prediction of our daily out put from ANWR and the offshore sites? I bet it's more than 500,000 bpd and yes, that will have an effect on prices. Lifting the ban will have an immediate effect on futures prices and trading.
June 24, 2008 2:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Dude, you are being so used on this drilling issue. The oil companies already have leases on millions of offshore acres that they are not using. The Bush/McCain proposal is nothing more than a last-minute attempt at a land-grab before the Republican nightmare ends.
Two oil guys doing favors for their oil buddies.
June 24, 2008 2:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Keep going with the "Oil buddies land grab" stuff...my tin foil stock just doubled again.
June 24, 2008 2:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, man!
Your "tinfoil" tactic is pummeling me!
Not!
June 24, 2008 3:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
From that well-known leftwing econutty Wall Street Journal:
Link: WSJ on ANWR
Asking the Saudis to increase production by 500,000 barrels a day probably isn't going to have a particularly large impact on oil prices, either. So why ask? Because the administration is desperate at this point.
I'd argue that closing the Enron loophole is going to have the largest and most meaningful impact on prices.
Lifting the ban is going to benefit oil companies.
June 24, 2008 2:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Taking just what you said does more to lower America's dependence on foreign oil that Obama's plan, does more to immediately effect the price at the pump than Obama's does, then add in the benefits from offshore drilling, an increase in atomic energy...that's called comprehensive. What will Obama do besides tax the oil companies (which will raise the price at the pump even more) to help before 2030 and 2050?
June 24, 2008 2:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Not really sure what your point is. You keep talking about off-shore drilling as the solution, then asked for information about how drilling in ANWR would affect oil prices.
The money quote from the Wall Street Journal:
So how is ANWR part of a "comprehensive" plan?
?
June 24, 2008 2:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
Part of a solution...one piece in a comprehensive plan...use our resources...invest in future technologies. Not just lofty goals for 2030 and 2050 but steps along the way.
June 24, 2008 3:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
The Wall Street Journal cites a report from Bush's own Dept. of Energy, so I trust you'll trust it.
http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2008/06/18/dont-expect-too-much-from-anwr/So, aiming for help by 2030 is a "lofty goal" but aiming instead for a few years earlier is "straight talk"??? LOL! "Comprehensive plan" indeed.
My favorite part of Obama's energy speech today:
June 24, 2008 3:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sounds like McSame's internal polling is showing the same thing.
Why else the pander-a-day reversals on many issues:
off-shore drilling, "may revisit ANWR," gas tax holiday, mega-million prize for a battery-operated car.
June 24, 2008 1:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Explains Charlie Black's gaffe
June 24, 2008 1:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
why else?
because he wants to get elected and he's wililng to abandon his principles and beliefs if he thinks it will help him do it.
But he's a MAVERICK!
June 24, 2008 1:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
And isn't presidential willy-nillyness just the most mavericky thing?!?!
June 24, 2008 1:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hello kettle, this is the pot, it's getting awful dark in here...
June 24, 2008 1:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
This isn't at all surprising. The EPA ("Just Phoning It In Until 1/20/09") recently put out a report concluding that an astonishing 1/3 of all lithium-ion battery production in this country goes directly into charging up leathery android Cindy McCain prior to campaign stops; John's going to have a real problem tapdancing around that one in a Town Hall meeting. Especially if he brings Cindy and she's caught chewing on CNN's power cables (she gets hungry, bless her!).
June 24, 2008 1:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
of course obama holds a lead over mccain on energy mccain has flip flopped so many times on this issue that we dont even know if hes still talking about energy
http://www.sensico.wordpress.com
June 24, 2008 1:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Are you votenic reincarnated?
June 24, 2008 2:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
People I know in the renewable energy biz have been solidly behind Obama since last fall, well before Iowa. He's staked out his turf well on this issue and will not cede it to a bumbler like McGoo.
June 24, 2008 2:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Let's look at H.R.6. passed in 20005. This bill passed and it is one of the reasons why gas prices are so high.
Now let's look at the who voted for that bill:
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=1&vote=00213
If you aren't familiar with the ramifications that were known beforehand, see this report by the House Oversight Committee:
http://oversight.house.gov/documents/20050726164801-76366.pdf
Parts of the report are here:
H.R. 6, the Energy Policy Act of 2005, takes the United States in the wrong
direction on key energy issues. It has four fundamental flaws:
• H.R. 6 undermines national security because it does not address U.S.
dependence on foreign oil and makes nuclear materials less secure.
• H.R. 6 harms the environment because it opens new loopholes in
environmental and public health laws that threaten water supplies, public
lands, and public input. It also fails to address global warming and authorizes
pre-drilling activities in coastal areas.
• H.R. 6 wastes tax dollars because it provides huge new subsidies for the oil,
gas, coal, and nuclear industries.
• H.R. 6 fails to protect consumers because it increases gasoline prices and does not prevent energy market abuses.
There is a strong rationale for providing government financial support to new
technologies and industries, where such investment will speed their development
and provide substantial societal benefits. However, the rationale for giving taxpayer
dollars to mature and wealthy industries is less clear.
H.R. 6 provides billions of dollars in tax breaks and direct spending to the oil and
gas, coal, and nuclear industries, and it authorizes tens of billions more.17 Some
of the subsidies include the following:
• Subsidies to the Oil Industry. The bill provides over $3 billion over ten
years in tax breaks and direct spending to the oil and gas industry, and
authorizes at least an additional $1 billion of subsidies. The oil and gas
industry is experiencing record profits.
• Subsidies to the Coal Industry. The bill provides roughly $3 billion over ten
years in tax breaks and direct spending to the coal industry, and authorizes
billions more.
• Subsidies to the Nuclear Industry. The bill provides an insurance policy to
the nuclear power industry for development of new plants that could cost taxpayers
roughly $2 billion. It also provides nuclear power over $1 billion in
tax breaks and at least another $1 billion of authorized subsidies.
Major deficiencies in the legislation that affect consumers include the following:
• No Provisions to Reduce Gasoline Prices. Gasoline prices have reached
record highs this year, with prices per gallon regularly exceeding $2.00. H.R.
6 does not contain provisions that would provide consumers with relief from
these rising fuel prices.
• An Expensive Ethanol Mandate. H.R. 6 requires motorists to use 7.5 billion
gallons of ethanol per year by 2012. A recent report by the Energy
Information Administration indicates that in 2012 this mandate will result in
an increase in consumer costs of $1.7 billion.18 This is due to the fact that
gasoline will cost more and consumers will need to use more of it, since
ethanol only contains about two-thirds of the energy that gasoline does.
• Denial of Refunds for Western States Overcharged by Enron and other
Energy Companies. Enron, Reliant, and other energy companies
manipulated Western energy markets in 2000 and 2001 to charge excessive
prices for energy. The Federal Energy Regulatory Commission has acted to
arbitrarily limit the amount of refunds available to Western consumers. H.R.
6 fails to contain provisions that would reverse this FERC policy and ensure
that consumers in the West are refunded their overcharges.
• Inadequate Market Manipulation Penalties. In case after case, companies
that have manipulated the energy markets in order to increase their profits
have had penalties assessed that were insufficient to recoup the profits
generated by the illegal market manipulation. Conferees rejected an
amendment that would have allowed FERC to assess treble damages in cases
where it was warranted by particularly egregious behavior.
And in case you didn't follow the link to see who voted for this bill, It was Obama. McCain voted against it. McCain is more responsible when it comes to handling the energy crisis. Obama is for big business... actions speak louder than words.
June 24, 2008 2:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Reasons for voting against the 2005 bill, according to McCain:
"McCain criticized it because he said it would raise gas prices in Arizona, it mandated too much ethanol use, and it contained too-generous tax incentives for people who buy alternative-fuel vehicles."
June 24, 2008 2:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Reason Obama voted for it...?
June 24, 2008 2:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
From his speech, today:
Against a 2005 energy bill that represented the largest ever investment in renewable sources of energy - a bill that Senator McCain's own campaign co-chair, called "the biggest legislative breakthrough we've had" since he's been in the Senate. That bill certainly wasn't perfect - it contained irresponsible tax breaks for oil companies that I consistently opposed, and that I will repeal as President. But the tax credits in that bill contributed to wind power growing 45% last year, the sharpest rise in decades. If John McCain had his way, those tax credits wouldn't exist. And if we don't renew key tax incentives for alternative energy production - tax incentives that John McCain opposed continuing - we could lose up to 116,000 green jobs and $19 billion in investment just next year.
June 24, 2008 2:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
This 2005 bill doesn't give any tax incentives to anyone but big energy companies. That is why Obama voted for it... that and his buddies at Com Edison need reduced restrictions on nuclear waste. Those who voted against the bill weren't voting against alternative energy, they were voting against what is happening now... record oil prices and record profits.
There was another bill passed in 2007 to amend H.R.6 to include the alternative energy tax credits... but the original bill that Obama voted for was very bad. Perhaps he just pressed the wrong button again.
As for Ethanol... we all know that is not the answer. It reduces available food supplies, and uses more energy than is available in the end product. It's not a solution. It's a problem.
By the way, I own a hybrid that regularly gets 60+mpg. I want alternative energy as much (or more) than the next guy. And I won't believe words... but look at the actions... and urge you all to do the same.
June 24, 2008 5:37 PM | Reply | Permalink