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Obama Cuts Ad For Conservative Pro-War House Dem

Barack Obama has cut a radio spot for conservative Dem Rep. John Barrow of Georgia, who favors staying in Iraq and favors immunity for the telecom companies, and he's taking a beating from liberal bloggers over it.

Barrow is loathed by the Netroots, and not without cause: During his 2006 reelection campaign he ran an ad saying that "we can't cut and run" from Iraq. And he was one of the House Dems who sent a letter to Nancy Pelosi demanding that they be permitted to vote for the recent Senate bill giving amnesty to the telecoms.

We obtained a copy of the ad from the Barrow campaign. Give it a listen:

The problem here is that the Netroots are backing a primary challenger to Barrow, State Senator Regina Thomas, and Obama's ad is a blow to their efforts. It's drawn scalding denunciations from Glenn Greenwald and Matt Stoller, who described Barrow as "one of the most reactionary members of Congress."

Obama spokesperson Tommy Vietor responded: "Sen. Obama believes that Congressman Barrow has worked hard to bring change that families in his district deserve."

There are multiple reasons why Obama would do this. For example, he might be trying to send a message to certain House Dems that he can help them even in conservative districts, which could keep them from refusing to endorse him -- something that would give the GOP ammo in the Presidential race.


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Obama's got a hell of a tightrope to walk. Not everyone's going to approve of it, but it sure won't be boring to watch, that's for sure.

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agreed. it's a tough one

In the ad, Obama says John Barrow is not afraid to take a tough stance for what's right - that's exactly what Barrow did, endorsing the liberal Obama.

What the netroots, supporting Obama should note is that Obama might not have won some of those Red states over Clinton without the risky and courageous endorsements of conservative Dems like Barrow.

To: PhillySchoolGirl
ABSOLUTELY NOT "Obama might not have won some of those Red states over Clinton without the risky and courageous endorsements of conservative Dems like Barrow."

From Greenwald's article...
"Barrow cynically waited until after Obama's sweeping primary victory in Georgia to endorse him. He did so only once he saw that Obama would likely be the nominee and obviously with the hope of having Obama encourage Barrow's sizable African-American constituency to support him."

It's like that old joke when a guy offers up $1,000,000 to sleep with a woman. When she agrees, he changes the price to $1. When she asks "what kind of person do you think I am". His response is "We've already established that. Now we're negotiating the price." We now know what kind of person Obama is. Now we'll find out his price.

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Yeah, he endorsed Obama three weeks after the Georgia primary.

Real courageous.

Between this and Obama's lack of leadership on the shredding of the Constitution currently underway with this "FISA compromise" bill, it does not bode well for "change we can believe in."

Remember Al Wynn and Donna Edwards, Barack.

Remember how well your endorsement of Holy Joe LIEberman worked out, Barack.

Remember.

Because we will.

Um, John Barrow's endorsement was announced the same day as Rep. John Lewis'. Lewis had previously been a Clinton supporter. His switch caught many people's attention (evidently not yours) because he is one of the old-line civil rights leaders and swings a LOT of weight in Georgia. After seeing countless film clips of Lewis getting beat up in Alabama, hardly anyone doubts his courage--why take his deferred Obama endorsement as a sign of cowardice?

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I don't care for this, at all. Just stay out of the race, if you don't want to campaign for an incumbent's opponent.

Those freaking yellow dog Democrats have been a real road block to accomplishing real change. I don't see why Obama is trying to support one of those assholes.

Unless he's pretty confident he's going to win, in which case, he can turn around and put the screws to the yellow dog Democrats.

It is as if he learned nothing from the Lieberman fiasco. I can understand why one might campaign for the fellow if he had already won his primary race, but why try to support him over another real progressive in the primary?

because obama is NOT a real progressive. that is why both he and hillary were toward the bottom of my list in the dem primary. this notion that obama is a real progressive is a delusional fantasy. (or to borrow bill's words: a fairy tale.)

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Uh...it's those freaking yellow dog Democrats that gave you a majority. Go ahead and show anyone that strays away from the hard left that there's not room in your party for them and see how many seats you end up with.

If Obama were campaigning hard for Barrow's opponent, I would see your point. If he had simply kept quiet, however, I fail to see how that might have been understood to mean "there is no room for anyone but solid leftists in the party."

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Go ahead and show anyone that strays away from the hard left that there's not room in your party for them and see how many seats you end up with.

You know, I've never understood this phrase "hard left" that gets tossed about by our friends on the right (or even our local concern trolls). What exactly is "hard left" about wanting to protect our consitutional rights? Or keeping the government out of our private lives? Remember the good ole days when Republicans used to actually want a smaller/less instrusive government? When they used to wail about keeping the government off our backs? I wonder what happened to them. Maybe Gingrich buried them during the "Republican Revolution" in the same mysterious area where Hoffa was planted.

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Actually I've always said we both want the same things. Better education for our kids, safe country, lower crime, quality affordable health care, save Social security, robust economy...world peace. We just have 2 different ideas about the best way to get there...back to the original question hard (or far) left is where Obama (and most posters here) resides in his most honest form, his true beliefs, not political posturing. Hard (or far) right is where I, Newt, Jack Kemp, and McCain's political posturing lean (not his true beliefs...he's really our Leiberman).

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I think you may have missed the point that I was making originally: what exactly is this "hard left", radical, secret, super-scary, boogeyman agenda that Fox News uses to scare its viewers? Can you enumerate it? I can take a stab at what I believe a "hard right" agenda to be: Unitary Executive (unless, of course, its a Dem President), International Imperialism, Abolishment of Entitlements, Aristocratic Theocracy. What's the "hard left" equivalent? Forced Abortions? Forced Gay Marriage? Forced Latte Drinking?

Turning US national security over to the UN. Banning all weapons. Unilateral disarmanment. Abandoning Israel. Withdrawing from the ME. Gutting Homeland Security. Robinhood economics, etc. etc. Don't set up straw men.

Hey nimrod. Whom do you think originally proposed Homeland Security? And just for the fun of it what does National Security mean? Why doe we have National Security AND Homeland Security?

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Turning US national security over to the UN.
Had to laugh at this one. These are the same Republicans that felt an imperative to enforce UN Resolutions? Even against UN wishes?

Speaking of strawmen...that's quite the cornfield you've got going there.

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Thank you Billy, I've been waiting two years for someone to say that on this site. It's getting so tiresome that just because the right wing media created the liberal slur thing, there's this sort of P.C. obssessive compulsive censorship about talking about far leftist positions, it's like we have to pretend they don't exist or don't know what they are or shouldn't believe our lying eyes or something.

"he's really our Lieberman."

I'm so sorry. I can't imagine a clothespin large enough to enable me to hold my nose and vote for him for President. This race must be painful for you.

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Dude, you have no idea...but if your choice was HolyJoe or GWBIII I think you'd be able to take one for the team and get 'er done.

I would demand these be stationed outside each polling booth:

http://www.nbcsafety.com/decon-shower.htm

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Or at least a couple buckets of Super Tropical Bleach and some scrub brushes.

Keep polishing the desk with your elbow grease, Sarge. Heck, judging by when you seem to always post, your MOS seems to "Resident Asshole," duty station: somewhere as far from the theater as possible. Tampanistan, mayhaps?

Let us know when you've PCS'd your head out of your ass.

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It's bullshit, is what it is. Poll after poll after poll shows that Americans support the positions that SFCWallace would like to call "hard left." They're thoroughly mainstream.

Remember Al Wynn and Donna Edwards.

Pelosi and the rest of the Dem establishment supported Wynn, the consummate insider.

More on Wynn here:
http://www.openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=3512

Oh, and Donna Edwards is being sworn in. Today. In fact, it probaby happened between two and three hours ago.

How many seats were you talking about again, SFCWallace?

Bullshit.

It's a pretty useless majority when you see, over and over again, "Democrats capitulate..." "Bush victory on..." fill in the black.

Most recently, and most infuriatingly for me, it's the FISA debacle. This allegedly Democratic Congress has gone beyond the backs of their constituents in order to deliver to the White House and the telecoms (who have donated tons of money to them) a profoundly unethical and unconstitutional bill.

If this is a majority, I'd rather be the opposition.

whoops

"black" should be "blank" and

"beyond" should be "behind"

...typing in a hurry.

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Trying to purify the party and runn anyone off who dose not pass your 15 litmus tests is how the GOP ran off all of their moderates and lost several states they used to win. It is important that we be a big tent in order to have a governing majority.

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I've been trying to tell them that...for some reason they don't listen to me.

You call them litmus tests, I call them values. Why support those who don't value what you value?

because only 35 people have EXACTLY the same values i do. that's not enough people to win an election.

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...that was funny!

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You are so lucky. I could count the people who share my values on one finger.

same here. most often i use the middle one to do the counting.

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Those freaking yellow dog Democrats have been a real road block to accomplishing real change.

I think you mean Blue Dog Democrats, not Yellow Dog Democrats.

As a progressive, I don't like it. I wish he would push every bluedog out of Congress. But really, imagine if he were to try that. Imagine if word got out to the House and Senate members, that if you don't follow what the progressive line, Obama is going to actively try to unseat you. I could only imagine the uproar, and when Obama is President, he would get nothing done. Not to mention that him supporting the challenger may not even work. And then how would he look?

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Imagine Obama standing on principle? I can't. And trying to justify his latest abandonment of principle is causing you to twist and turn and spin like a top. You're going to do yourself an injury.

He's a politician. He'll say and do whatever it takes to get elected. And guess what? If you don't like it, you can go fish. You'll wind up in the same shredder as his "friend and mentor of 20 years," Jeremiah Wright. Why would he treat you any better than he treated his own pastor?

Thanks.

mp

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When your pastor treats you the way Wright treated Obama, I wouldn't blame you.

(You're hemmed up about Wright? Really?)

MP- You're so homoerotic for Wright. It's kind of sweet actually.

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Shame on you for refusing to get with the FBAC (Fag Bomb Arms Control) plan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEbsgEsjy9s

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" Imagine if word got out to the House and Senate members, that if you don't follow what the progressive line, Obama is going to actively try to unseat you. I could only imagine the uproar, and when Obama is President..." News Flash: If this were to get out the wouldn't be an Obama as President.

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Wow! Sarge,

You just said something I agree with!

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That's 2 in one day...I'm on a role.

well, in Mississippi that means there would be two more Republicans in the House.

someone already pointed out, this BS litmus-test ideological purity stupidity is what put the Republicans where they are. You're saying you want to be just like them.

I don't.

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Hey, Obama, fabulous news: we've got immunity for the telecoms...thanks to such upstanding Democrats as Barrow!

Run a couple more commercials telling us how great Barrow is, would you, please?

Whatever his strategy, it did not work with Lieberman.

Obama has been tacking to the middle more and more. it looks ominous.

I don't know. Was he ever NOT in the middle?

While such is typical in the GE, I actually haven't seen him espouse anything in contradiction to his stance, but you do see a different emphasis. It is acceptable to emphasize your centrist positions in the GE, unlike McCain who has repeatedly changed his stated position on a number of issues.

He's always been a moderate. I mean, his books scream so. His stances on individual responsibility, education, etc. are a big part of his crossover appeal.

I'm glad to have a candidate that is beyond rigid ideology, even if it's progressive ideology.

Why surprise by this latest gag?

Uncle O has already:

Stabbed the great Reverend Wright in the back.
Left his church of 20 years.
Went down to FLA spewing shit about Castro and basically sounding like Ronald Reagan.
Backed off on his "negotiate with Iran" position. (As if this country has anything to teach Iran, a country which hasn't attacked or invaded another country since the 16th Century.)
Took it up the bum from AIPAC.
Wagged his stern finger at all those dead-beat darkie dads.
Filled his Foreign Policy "Advising" Team with a bunch of the Undead, the same people who gave us the Iraq Sanctions, the Sudan bombing, the destruction of Yugoslavia, and similar happy events.
Announced that NAFTA is A-OK with him.
And pushed his great wife to convince people that she's basically just another Condi Rice.

And my God, we're only in mid-June!

Maybe he'll be giving his convention speech in Denver wearing white gloves and a big bow-tie.

Wow, you really have no idea what you are talking about do you? That was nothing but a huge laundry list of examples of you being ignorant. Way to embarrass yourself champ.

"Wow, you really have no idea what you are talking about do you? That was nothing but a huge laundry list of examples of you being ignorant. Way to embarrass yourself champ."

Translation: "I'm just a fannyboy who doesn't give a damn about how Obama sells out on everything he ran on, before getting the nomination. I just need a new poster above my bed."

Sheeesh, at least the Arkansas Pimp waited until after inaugration to hit reverse.

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Good luck sellin' that snake oil.

Wagged his stern finger at all those dead-beat darkie dads. That's funny.

Many in the AA community are infact looking for a leader who can not only reform policy but also be an advocate for community reform.

I don't know enough about GA politics and frankly don't care. If I take the story on its face value I see no reason for Obama to risk a larger pie for this apparent right-wing dem elected. On face value, it appears stupid, for him to cut an ad. I will read more and there are a few things I ain't happy about as well.

Having said, as a fellow volunteer for Obama, Mitchumm I advise you to relax. Stay away from it for a while it helps. Consider Nader if you find Obama repulsive and you can begin your recovery by changing your avatar. But much of your list is baseless and tasteless.

Practically, I don't think he can win an election if a new video breaks out from his church every other week or if Rev. Wright takes centerstage in the media circus. I'm glad he made the move and took the church out of equation. I was enranged when the canadian-NAFTA broke and he's pandering on the issue, unless I see more evidence.

Pushed his great wife to convince people that she's basically just another Condi Rice.

You score a few more points for sense of humor.

This will not play well.

Despite the uplifting message of Obama's campaign he is a hard headed pragmatist. He is betting that Barrow's primary opponent would lose in the fall.

At least that is my take.

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The district is described as a toss-up district. Barrow's opponent for the primary is an African-American woman. Why would he bet that Regina Thomas would lose, if he, Obama, is at the top of the ticket, ensuring high turnout among Democratic voters?

We need more and better Democrats, not more of the same yellow dog Democrats.

Obama should have stayed out of the primary race.

Great comment.

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To quote Cheney, go f@ck yourself, justinh.

Or better, why not just carry on a conversation with mitchum, why don't you?

huh?

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My apologies. It was a case of mistaken identity.

How dare anyone twist your panties with any reality! I understand. Brack Obama fills up that big empty in your life, so when one attacks Obama one is attacking you!

I understand, really.

Agreed

Yeah, I just don't get this. This idea that he is trying to force the last two recalcitrant blue dog dems to support him makes no sense. Those guys are right wing douche bags, so who cares if they endorse him? I just don't get this.

And why, on Earth, would Barrow want Obama's endorsement? That's what I don't get. I was under the impression that blue dogs want Obama to stay far, far away.

It just does no good to have blue dog dems when they always vote Rethug. Even if it gives Dems the "majority," that does very little good when you can get NOTHING done. I am disappointed on this one.

But we know this is why Pelosi won't consider impeachment. She doesn't have enough votes in her own friggin' party, and having that put front and center by losing an impeachment vote would have embarrassed the shit out of her. So she took the appeasement easy road. But as we know with Lieberman, appeasement does not work. We have just got to get rid of them.

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Barrow endorsed Obama in late February. Maybe this is part of the quid pro quo.

(even if they both deny it)

That would make a certain amount of sense. I suppose it could also be understood as a lived-instance of Obama's pledge to try to unite the left and the right and lessen the polarization. I am still not pleased with it, however. Anyone who supports retroactive telecom immunity is dead to me.


(Are you paying attention, Sen McCaskill? Your support for Obama, while laudable, will not make up for your support for telecom immunity in my book.)

yep.

i said in the primary that if clinton or obama won the nomination that i'd vote for them but unenthusiastically and i wouldn't campaign for them.

but telecom immunity is my litmus test. the only money i contributed in the primary was to dodd when he announced that he would filibuster it. from executive over-reach to privacy to the rule of law to our fundamental constitutional rights, this one issue encapsulates so many of my core beliefs and so much of what i believe this country (and my president) ought to stand for.

if obama is a no-show on telecom immunity, it's likely i'll be a no-show on election day.

Here's the way I see it. Obama is trying very hard to turn Georgia into a competitive state that McCain actually has to devote time and resources to. This can happen, but not if the vote becomes completely polorized along racial lines. Obama needs to break about 30% of the white vote for him to realistically bait McCain into taking the Georgia push seriously. I think that's a possiblity, but it'll be tough for him to do.

By supporting the incumbant Democrat over an African American primary challenger, my guess is that Obama is attempting to send a message to some of the white voters in places like Augusta that an Obama Presidency wouldn't be looking to displace and disempower all whites. As someone who's lived in both north and south of this country, I can attest that this is a festering sore of fear in many whites in southern states. My guess is this is an early attempt to get beyond some of these fears.

Like I said earlier, Obama's got a hell of a tightrope to walk.

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Methinks you are overcomplicating something quite simple. This congressman endorsed Obama in February. It's simply a case of one hand washing the other. Happens all the time. No big deal. I don't like it, but it is still no bid deal if it's just returning the favor.

If it sends any message at all, in my opinion, it has nothing whatever to do with race and more with change vs the status quo. The message would be that the status quo has nothing to worry about with an Obama Presidency.

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I think tht Obama needs to work hard to get the message out that he is not looking to back blacks for being black. Hello_world got this one right.

It's about race? Please tell me that's not so.

Because it looks like Obama just threw a black woman under the bus.

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I do not think it is about any one thing. The world is not that simple and Sen Obama is not that simple minded.

Well, my take is it's this simple.

Obama to the Progressive wing of the Party: What are you going to do about it? Vote for McCain?

I'd tell them the same thing.

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I have been watching him closely since the 2004 DNC. He is doing what I expected him to do and I am as liberal as they come.

It's about race?
It is in a state like Georgia.

Well, you could also say Barrow should've stayed out of the primary race and not endorse Obama over Hillary. Look, Barrow is a conservative Democrat - he could've taken the easy path like that fool from Tennessee, but he decided to take the risk.

You don't think Obama should show the same courage? You think he should've dissed someone who went all out for him and endorse someone else? An African-American like himself? D'you know how that would translate?

Uh, Barrow endorsed Obama AFTER the GA primary.

I'm sorry, unless there's some electoral gamemanship here that we are all missing and can only be achieved through this endorsement, this move by Obama sucks.

He needs to give me some signals that he willstop the encroaching police state, or I will not donate any more to his campaign, and will only support him tepidly in the fall.

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...Uh cuz this is GA not CT. You get RINO's we get DINO's.

Perhaps he would bet that she would lose because there's only one black congressperson in the South from a majority White district, Sanford Bishop, and he's notoriously conservative (he's a Blue Dog!)

Also because Barrow beat his opponent in 2006 by less than 1000 votes, maybe.

Georgia-12 is not a district which is likely to send a liberal Black woman to congress.

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True...and GA 8 is getting ready to swing back to the Red isle. Jim Marshal barely beat Mac Collins last time, Gen(ret) Goddard will beat him handily.

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Actually, I live here and we could have gotten Regina elected as she already has represented the district in the state senate and house. You Obama apologists make me sick. I guess every time he sells us out, it will be OK because of the game. Funny, that was never OK for HRC.

please get over it. HRC "sold us out" on invading Iraq. Obama's "sell-out" is a wee bit lower on the Richter scale.

Just to note, this is a lie (or, more charitably, an error). Thomas represents a small part of the 12th district, consisting largely of urban Savannah, which is 60% Black. She does not represent a district which in any way approximates the 12th district as a whole.

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I believe you have mistakenly used the term "yellow dog Democrat" when you really meant "blue dog Democrat."

Yellow Dog Democrat refers to a person who will vote for a yellow dog before they vote Republican meaning they will never vote Republican.

A blue dog Democrat is what Barrow is: a Democrat in name only who regularly and routinely sides with the Republicans and claims that because his district is conservative he also needs to tow the Republican line to remain elected.

So:

Yellow Dog----good

blue dog----bad

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I was using the term cuz that's the term used by the original commentor. I thought she refered to them as "yellow dogs" because she felt the y showed cowardice. I simply wanted to remind her thet those "yellow dogs" (as she called them) were what gave the Dem their majority and Nacy Pelosi her big office and gavel.

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Hey, you're right!

As for the whole majority issue? I'd say it was a mixed bag of DINOs and actual Democrats that were elected in 2006.

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Yeah, and she's used that gavel real well.

As she prepares, in the next few days, to sell another big chunk of the Constitution down the river. Or the toilet.

Just one example out of dozens.

Thanks, Nancy, for your Courageous Leadership.

Excuse me. I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.

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Well, thanks for the clarification. I had always thought that "yellow dog" meant spineless, lacking in principles and courage Democrats.

I don't approve. He should stay out of the primary. He can help local Dems in the general, but don't mess with the primary, especially helping a conservative Dem, not a good idea.

I'm sure he had his reasons, but it doesn't seem like something Obama would do. Then again, he made the same mistake with helping Lieberman.

Hopefully the challenger still wins.

Do we know any details about that race? Any polling? Whens the primary?

Yep, count me as another liberal/progressive that doesn't like this at all. I don't really see the downside to abstaining from the race. Is this guy one of the ones that would not endorse Obama?

Assuming he's reelected, this is exactly the kind of Democrat that is going to make life hard(er) for an Obama administrattion. I don't get it.

Between this and the FISA deal, I'm not as happy as I have been for a few weeks now. But oh well. You can't have everything I guess.

It might help with some swing voters to have a few headlines along the lines of "Obama slammed by liberal bloggers for supporting moderate Dem". I'm not saying I disagree with the liberal bloggers. I'm just saying they're not the ones Obama needs to convince in order to win in a landslide that will secure at least 8 years of advancing the progressive agenda.

I hope you're right, because this is the best explanation I've heard so far. But what if the challenger wins (which we all want)? What about the egg on his face then? He must have access to internal polling showing she is DOA. I have to assume he would never have risked what is tantamount to a rebuke by endorsing the shit head unless he was sure the shit head is going to win.

But alas, we will never know the power of Obama because he didn't throw his support behind the underdog. Wouldn't that have been the greater story? Wouldn't helping the challenger win be the thing that showed other blue dog dems not to fuck with Obama? Jeez, what a missed opportunity. It sounds like a district that would only vote for Obama if it voted for the challenger (i.e. a district moving from right to left). If the blue dog wins, those voters are going to vote for McCain. As much as we talk this through, it still makes no sense.

Since I got you here, do you mind answering a question I had on your previous post about McCain's conference call?

When a McCain staffer outright lies on a media conference call like this, is there anyone there that calls them on it? Or does everyone just listen and play along, and then either report or debunk McCain's talking points later?

Also, in your opinion, how do statements like this [McCain so grossly mischaracterizing Obama's stance on capital punishment for bin Laden] effect their overall relationship with the media as they cover their campaign.

I'm genuinely curious about how far McCain staffers can go with distorting Obama's positions, and how far the media will allow him to go. One of the real unfortunate tenets of politics today is that the more shameless you are, the more leeway many in the media seem to give you with outright distortions and lies. I'm curious to know if you see this as a lose or an overall win for McCain that they've resorted to this already.

God, this was supposed to have been a response to Greg upthread.

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I am certain that Barrow will help Obama as much as Lieberman has.

My certainty. Let me show you it.

It's like the saying goes, you run to the left for the primaries, you run to the middle for the General. I'm not surprised, but it still sucks to see...

Obama had a hell of a day. Threw a black, Progressive woman under the bus. Tacitly endorsed telecom immunity. Became the first candidate since Watergate to opt out of public financing. Couple of more days like this one and we might decide he's just another politician after all. Pity.

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Greg:

You might be interested in Chino Blanco's column on this issue next door. It could use some recommendations.

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/06/regina-thomas.php

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I saw that. Took some of the sting out of this, but not much.

That no lose argument is about as cynical as it gets. The end justifies the means? As much as I like the fact that Obama is tossing the Progressive wing of the Party like a used Kleenix, there is a quality of desperation in his moves that convinces me that we traded a winning nominee in for a long shot.

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there is a quality of desperation in his moves that convinces me that we traded a winning nominee in for a long shot.

Yes, well, you thought that before he even started to make moves.

So don't say I didn't try to warn you. As I've often said, you managed to nominate the only Democratic candidate in the field McCain has the slightest chance of beating. How do you think that happened? My only fear is that Hillary will not be able to resist jumping in to try to rescue him and the Party. She should stay as far away from this train wreck as she can. Let's see what Teddy, Kerry, Richardson et al can do for him.

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McCain does not seem to be doing so well so far.

http://www.pollster.com/08-US-Pres-GE-MvO.php

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_obama-225.html#chart

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/

Trends, averages, or simulations; any way you look at it it looks good for Sen Obama!

Obama will probably win. I follow electoral votes at electoral-vote.com and he's doing quite well right now when you give him the 100 electoral votes from states where he is barely leading McCain. I'm just saying he's the best chance McCain has. I like the Deep Throat line. Who did they want to run against? And who did they run against?

If the end doesn't justify the means, what does?

Deep philosophical question, I guess. I still like the Existential answer. Do what you would want everyone to do. If that's what Obama is doing, we're in good shape.

You can't always get what you want...but if you try sometime, you might find you get what you need.

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If the end doesn't justify the means, what does?

Hmmm, I do believe that is the Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld justification for the use of torture and the ditching of habeas corpus.

I myself think there are some means that cannot be justified, however good the end they are meant to achieve.

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I wonder if Rep. Barrow thought the same thing when he voted for the MCA and stripping of habeas corpus, too? Maybe it's just the means justifying the means.

I was telling you that all along

It's crap like this that makes me really want a true progressive on the ticket with him. I don't like this whole float to center crap- it's how Bill effed over the whole movement in the 90's.
I'm hoping a progressive running mate would keep him true to his platform.

I do not want a repeat of the 90's.

Also, I'd like to point out that Gov. Tim Kaine had the same no "cut and run" tactic in his last run for Governor. Ominous indeed....

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I think he should get Murtha as a VP. Foreign Affairs cred, anti-Iraq war, experienced in DC...(fingers crossed hoping).

Feingold for me, baby. I'll quit my job and work for the campaing if it's him. But then I think everyone knows that....

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The right would love to see Murtha as VP. Then they could dredge up the abscam problems he had, the earmarks, etc... Ain't a chance on earth Murtha gets picked.

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...uh, that's why I picked him. That and he's getting ready to get sued for defamation by the Marines he called "cold blooded murderers."

wow. you. so. cleva.

You know what? I was on Feingold's steering committee in Wisconsin. That fringe Progressive agenda gets a little old after a while.

I've been following Greenwald's excellent coverage of this story and this latest "twist" is certainly a big let-down. Shame on you Obama. By supporting this guy Obama is helping the telecoms gain amnesty for their lawlessness. It's a real tragedy. Why do DEMS enable this stuff???

BARACK IS QUIENTLY TELLING THE IRAQIS'S THAT HE HAS NO INTENTION ON GETTING US OUT IN 16 MONTHS.

this is wayY to unbelievable. not only has OBAMA lied to the country when he said one thing to us and another to canada regarding NAFTA, he is now discretely telling the IRAQ foreign ministry he has no plans to remove US troops in 16 months and that this is just camapaign rhethoric. Now, add the fact that he has also just announced he lied to the american public regarding taking public financing over private and you can better believe what i have been saying all along is that OBAMA is a snake oil salesman and you folks have been taken.

http://video.msn.com/video.aspx?mkt=en-US&brand=&vid=fe86c872-82f5-4525-afc7-e85d3ca13bd5

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In honor of Michelle spamming this comment on at least 7 different posts, I hereby award a $10 donation to the Obama Troll Bowl!!!!
http://my.barackobama.com/page/outreach/view/main/TrollBowl

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I clicked, I gave, I conquered!

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What did Obama learn about the constitution at Harvard? What did he teach others?

This is how the Republicans win. Obama just gave them at big knife. The knifes name is hypocrisy.

Want better Democrats? Want to get rid of the Yellow Dogs?

Donate here:

http://www.progressivepatriotsfund.com/

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You mean (I hope) blue dog Democrats. They're the conservative ones. Please get your Democratic breeds right. I am a yellow dog Democrat. I would rather vote for a yellow dog than vote Republican.

Blue, yellow, what evs the term is. Conservative Dems. Get 'em outta there.

Politicians always use their activist base to win the primary and then rush to claim the middle come the general. The long primary just kept Obama out on the left longer - he's showing he is just another politician who played the game.

Yeah, he's playing a game, but right now the game he's playing is a local politics one that he hopes pays off in the national race.

In this district, chances are either Democrat will carry the election in November. My guess is that by supporting the incumbent, Obama's hoping to increase the numbers of whites in Georgia that see him as nonthreatening, as well as raising his stock with many bluedogs, who he'll need to effectively govern once he gets elected.

It's a risk, but you don't get anywhere if you don't risk anything.

Hold on. Hold on.

Just because we're progressives doesn't mean we should leap to conclusions without all of the facts, or without any sense of the politics in Georgia. Stoller says that 70% of GA-12 Dem primary voters are black. I don't know anything about the district, but shouldn't we know what percentage of GA-12 general election voters are black or white? Wikipedia says that GA-12 is a little over 50% white and 44% black, with mostly white Savannah and Augusta suburbs adamantly Republican. This is a much more difficult decision than the thread here allows.

How funny.

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Meaning what, BG?

Calculations based on race. Hope he's just a troll.

Anyone who would believe anything Stoller has to say about Obama hasn't been paying attention.

This were Obama better start leading or it won't matter if he wins or not, the US already lost.

Obama better get on that damn phone and CALL Nancy Pelosi and tell her what the score is - can OBAMA lead or NOT?

michelle (rightwing troll):

Obama is still a better choice then "more wars" McCain.

The Republicans created the tragedy known as the Iraq war. Nobody has said getting out is going to be easy.

Walrus. You act like Obama was the only candidate running on the promise to get out of Iraq. You picked the wrong one. It's going to get clearer and clearer. Get used to it.

There are multiple reasons why Obama would do this. For example, he might be trying to send a message to certain House Dems that he can help them even in conservative districts, which could keep them from refusing to endorse him -- something that would give the GOP ammo in the Presidential race.

If this FISA passes - alot of netroot WILL lose faith in Obama overnight - and it will be a big blow. Either Obama needs to lead or get heck out of the way.


I'm from Athens, which used to be in Barrow's district, and as much as I'd love to see him replaced with somebody who's more progressive, I think Obama's being smart about this. Anybody who can't do a credible conservative idiot impersonation is gonna have a hard time getting elected in the 12th. Barrow isn't an actual conservative idiot, but I'm pretty sure he'd sell his grandma to get elected. When the wind shifts, he'll go with it. I can't stand the guy, having put up with disappointment after disappointment from him from his county commissioner days on forward, but I think that if his chickenshit self is faced with a new political reality he'll magically make the adjustment.

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Thank you for that insight into the local scene.

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It's really important to know what's actually going on before trashing Obama based on various bloggers' (and Glenn Greenwald is one of my favorites) posts. I've written countless emails and faxes regarding the telecomm immunity issue and hope fervently that this latest monstrosity doesn't pass, but that doesn't mean I'm going to waste energy trashing Obama when there are plenty of others (including Steny Hoyer) who are much more responsible.

Good to get some better sense of the real dynamics...

Still, I don't think it's a good idea for the national nominee to be injecting himself this deeply in any primary fight. What if Barrow loses? Then Obama looks weak and foolish, and the Dem nominee can be painted as "OMG too liberal even for Obama!!!".

If he wants to repay Barrow he could easily do so at less risk to himself -- make a fundraising call or just invite Barrow onstage at a GA rally...etc etc. I just don't see the percentage in injecting himself in any intraparty battle at this point.

And the sellout of Obama begins.

He will do anything to get elected.

Sound familiar?

Thanks chicken little.

Hillary paid for her campaign only with the wages she earned pulling the graveyard shift at the steel mill, right?

psst.
don't feed the trolls

We have a ton of them all of sudden, don't we?

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This totally sucks. Combined with the FISA treachery and allowing Big Oil back into Iraq, Obama has a lot to answer for, and I mean RIGHT NOW, if he doesn't want me to take back all the nice things I've been saying about him.

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Just read the comment from "M in Athens."

Well, okay. Sort of. Obama isn't dumb, so maybe there's another angle. I'm too riled up about the FISA bullshit today to think straight anyway. And on THAT Constitution-shredding horror, God help us all.

Yes, thanks. This is helpful. Facts do help.

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I have said all along that it was not a sustainable situation for the same guy to be the darling of both moderate Republicans and the Democratic Party's self-proclaimed left wing. Sooner or later, I said, one group or the other is going to be disappointed.

I wonder if this is an indication of which group it is going to be?

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You make a good point and it's why he has held his cards close to his vest for as long as he could. But, I don't think this is a case where Indies and moderates are far from the Dems. On the two important issues associated with Barrow right now- Iraq and the FISA bill- most voters want the same thing. Obama has been pretty silent on this new FISA “compromise.” His endorsement of Barrow speaks louder than any “I’m against it” sound-bites or “present” (meaningless) votes.

This new bill effectively neuters FISA and besides giving retroactive immunity to Bush and ATT for illegally spying on “?” it allows for even more dragnetting of all of our communications. You see, after the big brother Total Information Awareness program was scrapped because the public demanded it be killed, they went right ahead with it secretly. It negates fourth amendment rights to privacy and freedom from warrantless searches of innocent people.

Barrow is one of the most conservative reactionary Dem congressmen and is leading the bluedog Dems to pass this. Obama’s endorsement and ads for him is a knock, not just against DFH left-wing netroot radical activists, but to all liberal democrats, and all Americans for that matter. BTW, it is a real slap in the face of the netroot groups who have a big fundraising and grassroots campaign against Barrow and others pushing telecom amnesty that's only days old.

oh i already placed that bet.

This is a disappointing news (unless shows me any upside to this) at such an early stage of his campaign.

(unless someone shows me any upside to this)

Good grief! The damned ad lays down the bargain--John gives his support and vote to access to healthcare and Obama cuts this radio ad. That's a bargain that is A-OK with me.

Hm, is that an acceptable bargain? If this fellow were not gunning for a house vote for the "compromise" FISA bill, I would see your point. I am not sure, however, that such a severe erosion of our civil liberties is "worth" an improved health care system. Each is valuable, but their worths are hard to compare and I am wary of saying that such a move down a potentially slippery slope is worth the cost in order to achieve healthcare progress.

But again, there were more subtle ways to repay the debt (joint appearances, fundraising, etc). The downside risk in getting involved in any way in a down-ticket primary is such that I just don't get the political calculation here.

Avoiding all the Obama haters here, I'll echo what others have said. He should have tried to stay out of the primary. I'm sure he was leaned on hard by Barrow, considering he endorsed him when his nomination was not certain. Barrow will owe him. Anyone thinking ANY presidential candidate would have actively sought to unseat incumbents is living in fantasy land.

"Obama haters" LOL

I worked my butt off for this guy in NJ, RI and PA. What exactly did you do, besides sit on your butt and blog?

Since April, this guy has shown himself to be just another hustler, just another Demo sell-out. It's not just that he's taken the sell-out road whenever he's been forced to by the MSM to choose. That's bad enough, but understandable in a national campaign.

What makes me ashamed of all the canvassing I did is that he's gone out of his way when it wasn't necessary to signal his sell-out of his progressive pitch. Today's horrible embrace of NAFTA being just the latest example.

We'll just have to take your word for all that hard work, won't we?

We'll just have to take your word for all that hard work, won't we?

Jesus. Now my voice is echoing, too.

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Rep. Barrow (D, GA-12) won his district by 864 votes over his Republican opponent. I think the Partisan Voter Index is +6 Democratic. A wee bit of pragmitism in who should and shouldn't be considered a prime target for a primary battle would be nice if progressives want to actually govern at some point.

Look, no one is saying that Obama should have worked to torpedo the fellow. We are just ill at ease with such voluble support for the fellow in a primary race. In other words, it is not that he should have cut an ad for Thomas. He should have simply stayed out of it altogether.

It's +2 Democratic in the Partisan Voting Index.

I agree with joejoejoe, 1:25 PM, re a wee bit of pragmatism. Obama's decision may have to do with sending messages to the more conservative wing of the Democratic party. But it may be simpler than that: do the Dems want to hold this seat or not? This is Georgia we're talking about.

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Bad timing, given the capitulation of Pelosi & Co. on telecom immunity. Bad timing, indeed.

Rare miscalculation on Obama's part that the average American likely won't even hear about.

You hope.

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Ok, the only thing I have to say here is that I find it very interesting that a very conservative Democrat thinks an ad by Obama will help him.


That's the only part of this I will even touch. I refuse to get into this shit until the man is elected. Then I'll worry about it.

In the meantime, the fact that Barrow wanted this ad speaks volumes to me.

More waste of virtual space by the lady who hears voices.

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Note upthread that the primary voters are 70% black, and the challenger is also black.

An Obama endorsement IS very useful in the primary.

I only know what I have read in this thread, but my read is that if the dems nominate a more progressive candidate, then they will likely lose the seat to the 'pubs. Nominating the preferable candidate is useless if she can't win in November.

So when President Obama needs house support to end the war, He can have a pro war democrat in that seat that owes him a favor, or a pro war republican who doesn't.

I love Obama, but I can't support any representative that supports telecom immunity. I won't fault Obama, but I'm going to send money to this asshole's primary challenger.

For real. It's an endorsement, not a command.

and when obama dances around telecomm immunity and gutting FISA? what then?

Moderate and even conservative Dems make up a significant part of the majority coalition. Can't ignore them.

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I live in Barrow's district and this is beyond outrageous. It just proves what I always thought: Obama is an empty suit who is gonna sell us all down the river in a split second. Barrow is pure, utter scum and the person running against him in the July 15 primary is a black woman named Regina Thomas, who has represented the same general district at the state level since 1995. She's a little too christian for my tastes, but she's got a solid liberal track record. Very disappointing since I am going to a fundraiser for her this weekend. Most of her supporters are Obama supporters, too. Great way to share those coattails, Barack!

I'm having trouble believing that you live in this guy's district. Maybe it's because you've been concern trolling here for months, but something just seems off. Go figure.

Wow, that's incredibly misleading.

Thomas represent's a district which basically consists of central Savannah, and is heavily (~60%) Black. It looks like three of around six state senate districts that more or less overlap with the 12th Congressional District are represented by Republicans.

That Thomas was elected in a majority Black state senate district in Savannah says nothing about whether she could win in a majority white congressional district that it's part of.

Once again, there's only one congressional seat in the south which has a white majority and is represented by a Black congressman. The whites in that district are, as I understand it, historically more liberal than those in the 12th, and Sanford Bishop, the aforementioned congressman, is pretty conservative, and was elected at a time when the district was majority black.

There is no reason to think that a Black challenger, especially one whom you purists view as acceptably "progressive" can win a general election in a majority white district in the south. If I lived in Georgia-12 I might vote for Thomas, but I don't begrudge anyone for acknowledging the reality that Barrow is about as good as we're likely to get in that district, and that a vote for Thomas might very well be the equivalent of a vote to give the seat to the Republicans.

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Yep. Right on. It's too bad, but it's reality.

Welcome to the new boss, same as the old boss. How disappointing. How American.

Exactly my thinking. Very disappointing.

Well, that could cost him more money than he thinks.

I live in Barrow's district. I've talked to him in person on several occasions, spoken with his staff and contributed money to his campaign. On one occasion he put his two index fingers together in the form of a cross when I suggested he vote with the Dennis Kucinichs of the party a little more often than he does the Republicans. He is, however, far better than former Congressman Max Burns(R) and the other conservative nut cases that will be running against him. That said, I called his DC and Augusta offices today and told them he will not be getting any more money or support from me in the future should he vote for the FISA compromise and instead will support Regina Thomas. Truth is, Regina Thomas does not have a chance in the Hell that is GA District 12 against Barrow or the Republicans even if she got an Obama endorsement. She ain't got no money. Barrow's loaded and that was barely enough to get him re-elected in the GA Republican gerrymandered district. Barrow can't even get a single good mention in the ultra-conservative Augusta Chronicle even though he has voted with the Republicans and Bush more than any other Democrat. He's the worst of the Blue Dogs. I'll vote for Regina in July and hold my nose once again as I vote for Barrow in November. The alternatives are far worse believe me.

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thank you Number 3. That's exactly what I thought was going on. Unfortunately for progressive dems, blue dogs get elected because progressive democrats wouldn't beat Republicans in certain areas. Not that we shouldn't keep trying, but believe us (those of us from these areas) the Republicans here are far worse.

Not always true, but seemingly true in this district. Al Wynn was a good guy to beat, because he sucked in a ridiculously safe seat. John Barrow doesn't fit that model at all.

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That's right, it's not always true, and that's why progressive Dems should keep working for more and better democrats (I give regularly to Progressive Patriots and show their bumper sticker proudly). But Obama needs to be elected President. Then I believe he expects progressive Democrats to work hard STILL to make it easier for him and other dems to fight for progressive positions by remaining actively involved by writing, donating and working, working, working. It's all about the country being represented, not the representatives leading.

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Yeah, he votes with the Republicans but his are as phoney as Mashall's. They wait until the Dem's have enough votes for a particular bill then look too Queen Pelosi for her head nod then walk up and vote against whatever has already been won to come home and say "see, I didn't vote for that!" If it's needed they'll hop in line with the queen.

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Suggestion for self-identifying "netroots"--read it again:

Tone, Truth, and the Democratic Party
by Barack Obama
Fri Sep 30, 2005

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/9/30/102745/165

Those appear to be his sincere beliefs, as he's been quite consistent on this front.

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P.S. as to the first comment on this thread, if you want to call it walking a tightrope, ok, fine, but it appears to me to be a core belief of his about how to operate politically. The point: it's not going to be stopping after he's elected, this is what he does, what he thinks successful politics encompasses.

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Thanks for posting that - and I agree with him 100%

yep, thanks for this one. i'd missed it entirely.

Obama is endorsing John Barrow, a flaming reactionary redneck,democratic-in-name-only candidate who supports torture, warrentless wiretaps, telecomm immunity and continuing the war in Iraq – instead of Barrow’s opponent, state Senator Regina Thomas. Thomas is a bona fide y Progressive, AFRICAN AMERICAN WOMAN, who was running on anti-war, anti-telecomm immunity platform -- AND -- this is in a district that is 70% African American! ! !

-- again, this is not the general election, but the Democratic primary -- Outrageous! Kinds smacks of Bill Clinton's gratutious public condemnation of Sistah Souljah back in 1992.

The apologist commentary accompanying the main story above says:

"There are multiple reasons why Obama would do this. For example, he might be trying to send a message to certain House Dems that he can help them even in conservative districts, which could keep them from refusing to endorse him -- something that would give the GOP ammo in the Presidential race.”

Occam's razor would quickly shred these mental contortions into . . . well,. . . tripe, which they are . . . . . [ "All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best." ] Applying Mr. Occam's scapel to this set of events, I think the simplest and most probable explanation is that Obama is really showing his true conservative colors.

This does not bode well for either “change” or “hope.”

Unfortunately, many of the posts above share this willingness to engage in mental contortions in order to not challenge the "hope" that Obama respresents real "change."

Progressive Obama supporters need to hold him accountable – instead of doing his contorted rationalizations for him. Don't let him get away with this crap . . . And don't try to rationalize it away. Face reality.

Obama’s stunning endorsement of Barrow, - the candidate who is 100% wrong on the Iraq Occupation – the one key issue that Obama's base is counting on Obama to champion – says Obama is very comfortable taking for granted and ignoring his progressive base -- much as Kerry was, much as Gore was, much as Clinton was, much as Dukakis was, much as Mondale was --- the same way Archie Bunker was very comfortable taking advantage of Edith Bunker's loyalty. [Sorry, t.v. metaphors are our post-literate world's equivalent of the Shakespearean allusion.] I for one am a little bit tired of being taken for granted. . . .

If' Obama is as progressive as people on the left "hope" or rather dream he is, why the hell isn't he stumping for progressive candidates, that will help shore up his progressive base, increase his voter turnout and, by the way, be the right thing to do? If Obama is/were progressive, he should/would be expanding his campaign to reach out to other progressive campaigns and causes to help build a movement. This would strengthen his position as a candidate, and as a president.

I also had hope Obama would live up to his percevied image among progressives. Obama's gratuitous kowtowing to AIPAC was strike one. His even more inexplicable and gratuitous embrace of Barrow over State Senator Regina Thomas is strike two. . . . .


P.S.
-- I'm sending Regina Thomas $100 today.

This is ridiculous. At least do some basic due diligence before sounding off. The district is not 70% African American. It is not anywhere near 70% African American. It is 45% African American and 55% White, and the vast majority of the white people are conservative Republicans. It is a district that Barrow himself only barely won last time, and one which a liberal Black woman is incredibly unlikely to carry. (once again, there's only one white-majority district in the south with a Black congressman, and he was elected originally in a majority black district that later got rejiggered to be less Black, and is also very conservative.)

Isn't it better for a President Obama to have this seat represented by a conservative Democrat who owes him a favor, and who is at least partially subject to pressure from the Democratic leadership, than to have another party line wingnut?

I don't particularly like Barrow either, but this stuff is ridiculous.

GA District 12 is 55% White and 45% Black. The Democratic primary voters are 70% Black. It has been gerrymandered to be less progressive and more conservative by taking away parts of Athens and adding rural southern counties and communities. Barrow barely won in 2006 almost becoming the only Democratic incumbant to lose his seat. Obama is smart enough to know that the only way the Dems have a chance of holding on to this seat is if Barrow is once again the incumbant nominee. He may not like it and I definitely don't like it but that's the way it is down here y'all.

Dear Greg and TPM,

I haven't read the thread, but I wanted to offer a complement. I really appreciate the balanced coverage today. You offer important information concerning Obama's efforts on behalf of a "bluedog" and you offer information about his lack of stance on FISA. This is important information that we need, even if it is critical of the candidate.

At the same time, your coverage offers Obama's position as well.

Sorry if the above sounds a bit weak -- it's been a long day. However, I've certainly disagreed with you in the past. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate you and your efforts. I suppose that's my point.

All the best,

Laura

From what I've been reading Tomas hasn't had much of a professional campaign. She doesn't believe in direct mail or TV ads. And don't know if she has asked for help from Obama or made his name or platform part of hers. Her efforts to fundraise should have been more stealth long ago and progressives should have grown her campaign from the ground up.

Also I hear that Barrows is his co-chair in Vote for Change.

*Thomas

Obamabots duped - again!

Well - that's what you get for supporting the Establishment's candidate.

Agree!
Obama has always been a con - a very OVERT con. And it's amusing watching duped Obamabots rationalize his flip flops.

Obamabots are the new Bushies!

Obama/Wright08

Obama is not a Progressive. He's a Centrist.
But since Obamabots have bought the propaganda, they fully believe Obama is the Progressive messiah.
LOL

Here in Western NC we have what CHarlie Gibson called the most Republican like Democrat Rep there is Heath Shuler. I am far from crazy for the guy but he is running against Hitler this year, so I will vote for him and urge others to as well.

Man you O-bots are a hoot with the buyer's remorse.

Everybody just go read Greenwald today and get a clue.

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