Obama Responds To McCain, Blasts His Phony "Toughness" As "Extraordinarily Naive"
CNN sends over an advance transcript of an interview Obama just got through taping with Wolf Blitzer.
In it, Obama repeatedly hits back at McCain's foreign policy attacks, and broadens his case that a McCain administration would be nothing but a continuation of Bush's failed policies. Key quote:
John McCain essentially wants to continue George Bush's policies of not talking to leaders we don't like and not talking to countries we don't like....the bottom line here, Wolf, is that John McCain wants to pursue policies that George Bush has pursued for the last eight years with no success. When it comes to Cuba, what he is now saying is essentially the policy we've pursued for 50 years and the Cuban people are not more free.And the notion that we would keep doing the same thing over and over and over again when it doesn't work and that somehow is a sign of toughness is extraordinarily naive, I think does a disservice to the Cuban people. That's the kind of break from the Bush administration that I want to initiate when I am president of the United States.
Given that McCain's onslaught of foreign policy criticism is unlikely to abate anytime soon, the question is this:
How much time should Obama spend in the weeds rebutting the substance (such as it is) of McCain's attacks, and how can he balance it with his efforts to steer the conversation back on to offense, back to the larger truism that McCain represents nothing but a continuation of Bush's catastrophically failed policies?
How can Obama cut through the clutter of accusations and slurs and focus the conversation on his broader effort to, in effect, change ingrained conceptions of what constitutes genuine "toughness" on foreign policy?
Full transcript of the interview after the jump.
OBAMA: I have to say, first of all, Wolf, his charges aren't serious. That's the problem. I have never said that I was prepared to immediately normalize relations with Cuba. The only person who has flip-flopped on this issue is John McCain who in 2000 said that he would be prepared to start normalizing relations even if a whole host of steps have not been taken. That is a reversal from the position he is taking now.And what I have also said is that I will be willing to engage in direct talks with Cuba. Now, I know that John McCain likes to characterize this as me immediately having Raul Castro over for tea. What I've said is that we would set a series of meetings with low level diplomats, set up some preparation but that over time I would be willing to meet and talk very directly about what we expect from the Cuban regime. And so John McCain keeps on making these statements that simply aren't based on anything I've said.
BLITZER: He says that you would be ready, in his words, to sit down unconditionally for a presidential meeting with Raul Castro. Those were his words.
OBAMA: And what I've said is I would be willing to meet without preconditions but with a lot of preparation and this is the same argument that we've been having with respect to Iran. This is the same argument that we're going to be having throughout the next several months should I end up being the Democratic nominee.
John McCain essentially wants to continue George Bush's policies of not talking to leaders we don't like and not talking to countries we don't like. It has been a failed policy. Iran is stronger now than when George Bush took office. Partly because he engaged in a war in Iraq that John McCain facilitated that has strengthened Iran.
The fact that we haven't talked to them has not had them stand down on nuclear weapons. It hasn't led them to stop funding Hamas and Hezbollah. It hasn't stopped them from threatening Israel and so what I have said is we should open up direct talks.
By the way, George Bush's own secretary of defense, Robert Gates, has indicated the same thing. I believe the same thing - I believe that the same thing is true when it comes to Cuba and I believe, by the way, that the same thing is true with North Korea. That's one of the few areas where we've seen some progress, primarily because the Bush administration reversed its policy of not having direct talks with these rogue nations and we've actually started seeing some progress. Prior to that, North Korea developed a series of nuclear weapons.
BLITZER: There seems to be some confusion whether you would be willing, personally, as president, to sit down, without preconditions, with Ahmadinejad of Iran or other Iranian leaders. Is your openness to a meeting with Iranian leaders inclusive of Ahmadinejad?
OBAMA: I think this obsession with Ahmadinejad is an example of us losing track of what's important.
I would be willing to meet with Iranian leaders if we had done sufficient preparations for that meeting. Whether Ahmadinejad is the right person to meet with right now, we don't even know how much power he is going to have a year from now. He is not the most powerful person in Iran.
And my expectation, obviously, would be to meet with those people who can actually make decisions in terms of actually having them stand down on nuclear weapons or stopping funding Hamas or Hezbollah or meddling in the affairs of Iraq.
But the bottom line here, Wolf, is that John McCain wants to pursue policies that George Bush has pursued for the last eight years with no success. When it comes to Cuba, what he is now saying is essentially the policy we've pursued for 50 years and the Cuban people are not more free.
And the notion that we would keep doing the same thing over and over and over again when it doesn't work and that somehow is a sign of toughness is extraordinarily naive, I think does a disservice to the Cuban people. That's the kind of break from the Bush administration that I want to initiate when I am president of the United States.
And DOWN GOES McSame!
May 20, 2008 4:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
I have to hand it to the guy. He wasn't my first pick, but this is EXACTLY the kind of talk we Democrats need. We are not a weak party. We are a strong, THINKING party. It's a critical difference.
Look, if Hillary doesn't get the nod, I will back Obama. It's not what I wanted, but it's something I'll support. I will say this though: I would like to see hiim work out the health care issue with her and appoint her "health care czar", so she could actually achieve what she set out to do 16 years ago. That would be some real party unity.
It's time that we Democrats took a stand together against John McCain. America can't afford anything less.
May 20, 2008 4:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fuck you.
May 20, 2008 4:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Owned"
May 20, 2008 4:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obviously you don't know your Internet lingo. The correct terminology is pwned. ;)
And, indeed, he has been most thoroughly pwned!
May 20, 2008 4:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm 'old school' (i.a. Prodigy, eWorld) ... ;-)
but you'll notice this is more a tweak to the nose of the anti-Obama troll who uses the quoted word in its avatar.
May 20, 2008 4:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
Not.
Just more opportunity to get the avatar up.
Lovin it!
May 20, 2008 5:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Too true. We know you have had a problem in getting it up for some time now, so if this helps you and the Mrs. I guess it's all good.
May 20, 2008 5:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
!
May 20, 2008 6:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is exactly what I talked about.
This morning, I decided to abandon political hate and start talking about broader issues, the idea that John McCain is who we should unite against.
Enter the counter trolls...
This guy is not the real Fogu2. I am. Do not be fooled.
I know we've had our differences, but I'm not going to let the Democratic party be tore apart by wedges.
I hope the other bloggers, even if they don't agree with me, will stand for a CONSTRUCTIVE debate, not a junior-high reenactment.
How about it guys?
May 20, 2008 4:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think I love you ;-)
May 20, 2008 4:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm behind you all the way!
May 20, 2008 4:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fuck you.
May 20, 2008 4:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're a fake and a has been.
Go away phony fogu2!
May 20, 2008 5:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
AND... and... BATTING... batting... THIRD... third...
ECHO... echo...
May 20, 2008 5:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fuck you.
May 20, 2008 5:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
http://www.amishrakefight.org/gfy/
May 20, 2008 5:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Please try to extend my troll some level of courtesy. You can call him out if he says something out of line, but if he wants to engage you on an issue - please join him in a constructive discussion.
May 20, 2008 5:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
to the Real fogu2 - I'm afraid that your fake has a rather limited vocabulary, a substantive discussion may prove problematic.
May 20, 2008 6:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Spoken like the Loofah himself:
May 20, 2008 6:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Right on, Fogu! You need a Unity sig line.
Now, I don't know about making Hillary a "Czar" on a Health Task Force, but yes, make it a priority and put her in there.
May 20, 2008 5:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Dude, grow up. If you hadn't acted like such a mental patient on these boards, perhaps people wouldn't be trying to ridicule you now. Take your medicine and deal.
(Or, change your login name! Ever thought of that, genius? Who cares if you're "fogu2" or whatever?)
Everyone understands that you like Clinton and, for reasons still unclear, hate Obama. Fine. But the point is made. The reason people think of you as a troll is because you spout the same thing every day and then use profanity against anyone who dares cross you. Please. That's bully stuff, and I have to think we can all rise above that.
May 20, 2008 4:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
No you're wrong. I never, ever said I hate Obama. I've repeatedly said I don't think he's ready.
May 20, 2008 5:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
And yet facts continue to prove you wrong.
May 20, 2008 5:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
You say you don't hate him. Fine.
However, you're a strong critic - sometimes beyond the realm of reality. That implies you have some sort of personal animus towards the man, and that's why I came to that conclusion. Saying you don't hate him doesn't make it so.
Still, you need to grow up, regardless. Saying "Fuck you" after every one of your impostor's posts is beneath even trolls.
May 20, 2008 5:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
My troll seems to have softened his tone. And if he wants to talk experience, this is a completely valid issue.
I would remind him however, that given his argument, Dick Cheney is the best man for the job.
May 20, 2008 5:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fuck you.
Nice job!
May 20, 2008 5:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh oh.. now you are introducing the exchange of money in this business of getting your avatar up and fucking people.
Unless you are in certain counties in Nevada, that's a legal no-no.
May 20, 2008 5:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Bitter, bitter, bitter. What a sore loser.
May 20, 2008 4:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
I didn't have to jump.
May 20, 2008 4:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fact Check:
The McBushCain Hybrid: It runs on Ignorance, Bullshit, and Fear.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr6Va7PEBg8&eurl=http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/
May 20, 2008 4:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm starting to think it is McSame who's been drinking W family ranch cool aid.
This guy is serious BS.
I am changing Icon now.
May 20, 2008 4:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
I like the donkey!
May 20, 2008 4:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
I liked your previous avatar. This one looks like Severus just got picked up on a heroin charge.
May 20, 2008 4:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh my G-d! That wiped me out! A heroin charge! Good call!
May 20, 2008 5:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Kicking Ass. Way to go.
May 20, 2008 4:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Let the healing begin!
May 20, 2008 5:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
like the donkey. thanks
May 20, 2008 7:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
He's got to challenge McCain on the national security front, and if McCain keeps talking about it (which he will, because he's got nothing else to talk about), Obama is right to keep pushing this.
Convince everyone that McCain's vaunted strength on national security represents nothing more than the tired and disastrous policies of Bush, and you will be able to convince everyone that no matter what McCain says, he's nothing more than Bush III.
Attack the strength of your opponent.
May 20, 2008 4:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
i agree entirely. this is what he has to do to 1) not be painted as a whimp and 2) take down mccain's strength. there will be plenty of time later for the other issues. now is when impressions get made re: safety, imho.
May 20, 2008 4:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
When you take away McCain's "foreign policy expertise", what's left really? The answer isn't pretty.
May 20, 2008 4:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
The Bush/McCain gambit of pushing this out so early in the process isn't going to help either - these contrast are going to color the entire campaign season from here forward.
Of course I think MiddleNames has hit the nail on the head - they really have nothing else to stand on unless they can manage to gin up some sort of actual conflict in Iran or elsewhere.
May 20, 2008 4:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama ought to give a speech elaborating on his plans for diplomacy and foreign policy more generally, in addition to/rather than rebutting McCain's reckless attacks. Any lack of specificity in Obama's remarks is one of the things that the McPocrisy crowd likes to point to as "proof" of Obama's supposed naivete. A kick-ass speech delivered at West Point or somewhere similar could rebut that nicely and convince the on-the-fence folks that Obama is a heavyweight.
May 20, 2008 4:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
What no one has ever been able to explain to me is this: What, in 21st Century America, do we have to fear from Cuba? What leverage does Cuba have over America? Politically speaking, militarily, economically, socially, what threat does Cuba pose to our government, our sovereignty or our way of life?
If Obama is elected President, I hope he's smoking a cigar in Havana before the bunting from his inauguration is taken down. It's freakin' CUBA!?!?!? If we don't have leverage to bring to bare on Cuba, how are we going to get anything done anywhere else in the world?
May 20, 2008 4:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
First, Kerry doesn't attack nearly enough in 2004.
Now, that we have a candidate who is hitting back, you seem to suggest that Obama is hitting back too much.
May 20, 2008 4:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
that is a deeply ridiculous and hyper paranoid interpretation of what I wrote, sorry
May 20, 2008 4:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Your question presupposes things that are either-or and contradictory goals. I posit they are not. Hitting back on the substance, and pivoting on it towards the 'more of the same' (i.e. failed Bush policy) is effective.
Moreover, the more McBush tries to hammer on ridiculous formulations of the "Dems are weak on bad guys" schtick, the more the 'they are offering the same politics of fear to fool you' works. The more they punch wildly, the more they throw themselves open to your counter-punch that will resonate with a 'change' motivated electorate.
They are leading with their chins here Greg.
May 20, 2008 4:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
This tactic is not only reminiscent of Reagan's "there you go again," but even a considerable improvement on it.
May 20, 2008 5:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Exactly.
This is laying the groundwork for that pivot. Same thing Obama has already been doing about the personal attacks and 'politics of personal destruction'.
The more they try to throw the same wild punch, the more it reenforces the point Obama has already put out there. The more negative they go, the more it reenforces his (Obama's) narrative.
May 20, 2008 5:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
True. We can read way more in between the lines than what you write. My favorite line about paranoia this election season is from The Daily Show:
Jon Stewart: Sir, we are concerned that ultimately at the end of the day, if you are fortunate enough to get the Democratic nomination, fortunate to become President of the United States, will you pull a bait-and-switch, sir, and enslave the white race? Is that your plan? And, if it is your plan, be honest. Tell us now.
Obama: [laughs] That is not our plan Jon, but I think you’re paranoia might make you suitable as a debate moderator.
May 20, 2008 4:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree the interpretation is off Greg, but disagree with your implication that this current line of attack by Obama is somehow flawed, and not accomplishing exactly what you imply he needs to get back to doing -- pushing the Bush's Third Term meme.
By framing Obama's recent retorts as being too "in the weeds" and arguing that he necessarily needs to "cut through the clutter of accusations and slurs" you've got to see that there is a he-just-can't-win with you element forming here.
He's constantly accused of being light on detail and too heavy on soaring rhetoric. Now he's too "in the weeds" here? And not pushing a broader rhetorical theme ala Bush's Third Term.
How would you propose he battle McCain on National Security? Pointing out his mistakes and continuing to draw parallels with Bush seems to be working well to me.
May 20, 2008 4:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well said. That is what I was drivign at as well.
May 20, 2008 4:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks. You beat me to it. Greg actually seems to be back peddling a little now.
I think this is certainly true, but it doesn't really say much. It's a far cry from his earlier point that the Obama camp needs to determine how much time it'll spend "in the weeds rebutting the substance" and "cut through the clutter of accusations." He seemed to have an opinion that this was the wrong tactic, and perhaps there was a better way the Obama campaign could go about changing what it means to be "tough" on foreign policy.
Now he goes way out on a limb to say "there's a line" and the Obama campaign needs to decide where it is.
I honestly think he just does this stuff to rile us up. Sorta like shock-jocks on the radio.
May 20, 2008 5:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm not sure how I said it was flawed. All I said was that going forward Obama will have to figure out how to strike the right balance here.
It's obvious that getting into too much of a debate about the specifics of McCain's bogus attacks could trample on his larger message. I'm not saying that has happened here. Just that it's something to be aware of.
Seems like a very, very uncontroversial point to make, honestly
May 20, 2008 4:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah you are. But I get it. I'm an avid reader so you must be doing something right ;)
May 20, 2008 5:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
that's what I was thinking pearl.
May 20, 2008 5:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm sorry Greg, but last I checked, you were a reporter and not a Campaign professional. And the last I checked, the Campaign professionals over at Obama '08 seemed to know what they are doing. So forgive me if it's hard to read campaign advice from the cheap seats.
May 20, 2008 5:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
The question wasn't ridiculous. Calm down.
Greg, I believe, merely interpreted the last series of Obama-McCain dustups a little differently that we Obama supporters did, and frankly, it's not his job to answer those questions - he's a reporter for this site. He asks questions to stir discussion on the comment threads. Why waste time attacking him?
May 20, 2008 5:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
McSame shoudl psot a greatest hits album.
Tracks would all sound alike.
I've called Obama lots of names. But this kind of talk is real leadership.
He's finally leading. Not so bad.
May 20, 2008 4:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Kicking Ass. I approve of that message.
May 20, 2008 4:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
it's important for Obama to hit back like this ... especially being forceful in challenging McCain on how one truly makes the US a stronger, safer country. Calling McCain naive is a nice touch.
fundamentally he must pass the "safety" test and duking it out with mccain is the only real way to do that. he must avoid being painted as a wimp at all cost.
i've quite pleased the way his tone has developed. i wasn't sure who would show up to the big dance ... nice to see it was more than just promises.
May 20, 2008 4:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, man, the debates in the General are gonna be sweet!
May 20, 2008 4:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
"How can Obama cut through the clutter of accusations and slurs and focus the conversation on his larger effort to, in effect, change the meaning of what constitutes genuine "toughness" on foreign policy?" - Greg
By doing what he's doing here: linking McCain to Bush every chance he gets.
I also like how he clarifies who he will meet with:
"Whether Ahmadinejad is the right person to meet with right now, we don't even know how much power he is going to have a year from now. He is not the most powerful person in Iran."
McCain is going to get schooled, and the American people might learn something in the process. In an earlier post, I question whether this kind of nuanced response would be effective. The more I think about it, I think it will.
It seems to me that McCain has a hard time clarifying his position, and in the end, he just sounds more like Bush, which again plays to Obama's strength.
Obama is change, McCain is the same OLD failed policy.
May 20, 2008 4:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
SCMadden,
Knock on wood, keynahora, and in'sh'Allah!
May 20, 2008 5:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Agreed. I think Obama is coming through strong on this point very early on. He's got a lot of specificity, he's not shying away from these issues, and showing that he's ready to take McCain on in the foreign policy arena. I can't wait for some debates.
May 20, 2008 5:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Dang, when will McCain learn each time he throws a shot Obama catches it and fires right between the eyes.
Keep it up McSame, you are making Obama's point for him...you do not know who our enemies are or suppose to be.
Fire in the hole!!!!!!!
May 20, 2008 4:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
This comment made me think of this scene from "Big Trouble in Little China". Think of Kurt Russell as Obama and the Chinese sorceror as McCain. :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQTp5BL5MMU&feature=related
May 20, 2008 5:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Check out the new Gotalife!
All other imitations are crap.
Do not be fooled by the BS trolls, this is me.
It is good to see some leadership for a change.
I am warmging up to this guy.
May 20, 2008 4:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
What kills me is that the Republicans don't seem to get how deeply in trouble they are - they are running the Bush approved candidate as Bush.
I don't get it.
Are they really this dumb?
May 20, 2008 4:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes Tena they are
May 20, 2008 4:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Tena, Tena, Tena.
Are they really this dumb?
This is the party that brought you "Freedom Fries". Need more be said?
May 20, 2008 4:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah I know.
this just seems too easy -
May 20, 2008 4:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
And don't forget about all the morons who dumped bottle after bottle of delicious French wine down the drain.
Criminal.
May 20, 2008 4:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wine which they purchased. Classic.
May 20, 2008 4:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah. I knew a woman who at the start of the war was all gung ho and her family was all going to Paris to celebrate her parents' 50th. She said she'd go, but she was bringing her own wine!
I'm still laughing at that one. Yes, she'd deign to darken the doorstep, pay the hotels, the restaurants, go shopping etc, but she by god wasn't buying any French wine.
ROFLMAO!
May 20, 2008 4:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sounds like refusing to support Disney because they give domestic partnership benefits to employees, by buying tickets to Disneyland, going into the Magic kingdom and then refusing to get in line to ride the Matterhorn as a form of protest.
That'll show them by my giving them the money AND making the lines shorter.
;-)
May 20, 2008 5:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Kenny! You're back!
And all those wine dumping Republicans probably went out and had a bunch of Grey Goose martinis, never realizing that Grey Goose is, in fact, a French vodka.
: )
Life is too funny sometimes.
May 20, 2008 4:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think Bush would have approved any Republican, with the possible exception of Ron Paul.
May 20, 2008 4:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, they don't really have anything else.
They're pathetic. I'm surprised they're even still in existence.
May 20, 2008 6:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
What would you do if you were responsible for McCain's strategy?
May 20, 2008 6:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree, CT, and I don't see this as time "in the weeds." He is emphatically and repetitively making the point that not talking has not worked. It has to be just "weedy" enough to indicate that he knows what he's talking about and I think Obama's walking a good line here.
Don't you know McCain's wishing he did have something else to talk about? :)
May 20, 2008 4:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
right, but the point is that there is a line to be walked, and the obama campaign will have to decide what it thinks the right balance is
May 20, 2008 4:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Howard Fineman made a similar point on Countdown. That Obama really needs other people to be out there making these points.
But here's my question: if McCain keeps throwing out the meat, why shouldn't Obama go after it? McCain started this fight. Obama should fight it.
Or, alternatively, why is no one saying of McCain, "there's a line he should stick to...", or why is no one wondering why McCain supporters aren't making these arguments?
May 20, 2008 4:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
And if Obama has surrogates respond to accusations actually spoken by McCain, does it come off as a dodge?
I'd think so.
Finally, I think there's an element here, too, of building a presidential persona. Particularly in comparison to the opponent.
May 20, 2008 4:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
I finally figured out what has been bothering me about this question Obama going after McCain.
Why does the media assume that Obama is on the "defensive" here? Implicitly buying into the McCain stereotype of being strong on national security?
Obama hs run an historic campaign. Is it possible that he's got McCain exactly where he wants him? He's significantly more articulate than McCain. Younger. Fiercer. Lots of stuff.
So when Obama gets "drawn" into the "weeds", and winds up on cable TV looking and sounding younger, wiser and more energetic than McCain (who's always shown in contrast), how is this something to be worried about?
Sorry for answering my own comment.
Or maybe I'm a new CT Voter.....
May 20, 2008 4:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Based on the swing in poll numbers since this started last Friday, this is indeed where Obama wants McCain, in a hole he refuses to stop digging.
In addition, Obama's retalliation have been way beyond defensive. Obama's "What are Bush and McCain afraid of?" attack is a devastating and unprecedented reframing of this longstanding debate and pivots McCains attack on Obama's judgment back to McCain's courage. To view it as defensive totally overlooks so much of what is actually taking place here.
May 20, 2008 5:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
retalliation has been
May 20, 2008 5:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Exactly. The "what are they so afraid of" is the popping of the bubble, or the ripping back of the Emerald City drapery.
May 20, 2008 5:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
But that's the same contradictory stuff they have always claimed Obama had to do. 'He needs to get into specifics' nonsense the CW beltway nutters and media hacks push over and over.
Now he is being too "weedy" by hitting back on the substance and the fuller context of why McBush is deadly wrong on his entire world-view and approach to not just policy, but in BS and misleading the public with fraudulent frames and terms of debate?
Seems to be you are pushing the 'head I win tails you lose' line for Obama.
May 20, 2008 4:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's why God (or Lucifer or somebody) invented polls and focus groups. They're like the genie in that Disney science class flick about the atom--a good servent but a terrible master.
Ummm, I just totally dated myself with that reference, didn't I?
May 20, 2008 4:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Only if you start talking about Hemo the Magnificent and the circulatory system.
;-)
May 20, 2008 4:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
And, of course, Meteora and the ones with Fuel and Ignition.
May 20, 2008 9:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't think you're wrong that there's a balance to be struck, but I don't see any real reason to think that Obama isn't doing a good job striking it. I thought his first responses, at the end of last week, were a bit off, but since then he's kept the central theme pretty simple, he keeps coming back to it, and he's putting in plenty of zingy sound-bites.
Given the position he's arguing from---where he's presumed to be less experienced than McCain---making detailed speeches is not such a bad way to go. Especially when it leads to the press challenging McCain on those same details, giving him the chance to demonstrate that he doesn't know nearly as much as he's reputed to. In-depth interviews seem like they'd be a good way of appealing to Clinton supporters as well, given how she excelled in that format.
May 20, 2008 5:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
The thing that gets me excited is that Obama (maybe borrowing a bit from Clinton here), has shown that a "tough liberal" is not a red Herring. It's just like being a tough conservative, only using your brain more.
I hope Hillary backs Obama on these comments, because they're absolutey right. Let's see some unification AGAINST the Republicans, who are the real threat to our country.
May 20, 2008 4:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fuck you.
May 20, 2008 4:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Owned"
May 20, 2008 4:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
More opportunity to get the avatar up!
May 20, 2008 5:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry to hear of your problems of being flacid.
May 20, 2008 5:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm not sure what my troll means - but let's try to talk to him on the issues. Now that I've decided to have a bit more of an open mind and support the DEMOCRATS, as opposed to a single candidate - why does he feel so compelled to try to tear me down?
Hillary still is my #1 pick, but I'm not dellusional. If need be, I'm going to work at 110% capacity to ensure Barack Obama becomes president over John McCain.
May 20, 2008 5:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fuck you.
Fun!
May 20, 2008 5:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
You need to get your avatar up first sparky.
May 20, 2008 5:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hah! Man, you are cracking me up!
You should just go away. As much as we love to ridicule you you've outlived your time.
May 20, 2008 4:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
I totally agree, real fogu2. Great point.
May 20, 2008 4:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Do not be fooled by imitations. This guy is a counter troll determined to cause havoc.
I've decided the bickering needs to stop - and I hope my fellow TPM bloggers can stand united with me.
Disagreement - if constructive - is welcome. What's not welcome is hate. Let's put a stop to this.
May 20, 2008 4:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Amen, real fogu2.
May 20, 2008 4:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
You are totally the real fogu2 and we all know it.
This other guy is disgusting. Look at his avatar, how silly is that?
May 20, 2008 4:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fuck you.
May 20, 2008 5:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ladies and Gentlemen, a nice hand for my troll.
This is what happens when you open your mind to the possibility of not being 100% right, the people who are convinced of their righteousness go for your jugular.
That being said, again, if my troll wants to talk issues beyond myself and fornication, I'm open to it.
Let's try to engage this guy - I'm sure he's got some interesting ideas. Even if he's not a democrat, maybe we can convince him otherwise.
How about it guys?
May 20, 2008 5:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fuck you.
Nice job!
May 20, 2008 5:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Did I ever swear this much?
Further evidence my troll pales in comparison.
Please go easy on him though, he's a potential Democratic voter.
May 20, 2008 5:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Hillary" troll meets Borat... a new motif is born.
May 20, 2008 6:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Man, this is getting to be like a real live Case of Mr Pelham.
May 20, 2008 6:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Only if you get your avatar up darling.
May 20, 2008 5:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think Obama's responses to McCain's accusations do a pretty remarkable job of linking McCain to Bush. I see these exchanges in the same light as the gas tax rebate debate between Obama and Clinton. Both Obama and McCain believe that this foreign policy issue is at the heart of their campaigns, so both candidates are going to keep working it. I think Obama is definitely getting the best of him, but that could change over time I guess. Seems pretty effective right now.
May 20, 2008 4:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
BARACKARATE!!!
May 20, 2008 4:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
I continue to support HRC, but:
Obama is telling the truth here. This is the right knd of talk.
Obama/McCain debate could be like Kennedy/Nixon.
I wanted Hillary. I will take Obama.
May 20, 2008 4:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Kicking Ass. Your symbol is apt.
May 20, 2008 4:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
I still the Kool-Aid pitcher.
May 20, 2008 4:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Me, too. I'm having a hard time accepting the donkey as GotALife.
I totally gave up the old Fogu avatar, however.
May 20, 2008 6:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Kicking Ass. Your symbol is apt.
May 20, 2008 4:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
McBush will soon show his anger. I'd like to see reporters push on his answers and force him to expand on his answers; he will explode on them. He can't stand to be challenged and confronted on his positions. He believes he is God-Like and Obama is the person to challenge him and challange him hard on his positions. Bring on the debates! Let old McBush flip flop to his heart's content and show me his anger....
May 20, 2008 4:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
At 46 with less than one term in office he'd better have a better strategy than calling McCain naive. McCain's been around the block more than a few times and he'll slap Obama silly on the wisdom of experience angle.
May 20, 2008 4:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Being old and naive aren't mutually exclusive.
May 20, 2008 4:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
inexperienced and naive are.
May 20, 2008 4:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ummm....I don't think you know what "mutually exclusive" means.
May 20, 2008 4:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
LOL.
fogu2 owns himself.
...or is this the fake? It's getting hard to tell.
May 20, 2008 5:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Pay attention!
May 20, 2008 5:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Pay your candidates creditors and vendors!
May 20, 2008 5:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
I couldn't agree more with my troll - pay attention.
My posts in the past, though pro-Clinton, were much more articulate than some of these explicit outbursts you're now seeing.
You tell me who sounds more like the thinking, real Fogu2?
I still support Hillary, but I will support Barack Obama if he is chosen by the party to stop John McCain, who is a serious threat to our country.
If my troll wants a constructive debate on this, I'm all for it.
May 20, 2008 5:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fuck you.
May 20, 2008 5:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Should we play with your nipples to help get your avatar up more first?
SOmetimes foreplay can be so hit or miss you know.
May 20, 2008 5:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Easy Lestat - I know where you're coming from and understand your frustration, but let's try to keep it classy.
If my troll wants to express his 1st ammendment rights on this site, he can, but we're here to do the same WITHOUT profanity.
May 20, 2008 5:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Where did I use profanity?
(wry grin)
May 20, 2008 6:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Indeed on the batshit insane level he is certainly going to slap Obama silly.
I am so not worried about McWar's "experience."
May 20, 2008 4:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, we've seen the effectiveness of being the "experience" candidate this cycle. Not exactly the best platform to run on based on the current mood of the country.
May 20, 2008 5:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Good point, but lately (from what I've seen) McCain can't remember anything that he's said in the past. So what good is experience if you can't remember it?
Seriously, how many YouTubes have you seen lately where McCain says something like, "I never said anything like that..." and then there's a YouTube moment of him saying exactly that?
May 20, 2008 4:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sheesh - allow me to correct my troll.
I'd be hesitant to go with the angle of experience. Dick Cheney has been around the block a few times.
Obama is standing strong now, THINKING and LEADING. I personally wish it was Hillary doing this. But if he's gonna be the nom, I'd rather him than no one.
Again - I think HRC needs to be in the cabinet, along the lines of a "health care czar". The mandate issue will have to be worked out, but I think it'd be an incredible sign of party unity.
We are Democrats. We are better than petty bickering. The party of FDR, JFK and WJC can unite once again to save this country.
May 20, 2008 4:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
McCain will slip himself around on the wisdom of experience in making bad decisions, pandering, and flip-flopping- is what I think you meant.
May 20, 2008 5:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, he is on CNN playing defense again.
Sad.
May 20, 2008 4:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Senator Obama comments on the news about Senator Kennedy.
Senator Obama: "I stand on Ted Kennedy's shoulders."
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2008/05/20/sot.obama.kennedy.cnn
May 20, 2008 4:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
You are not real Gotalife, troll.
I am. I decided today to do things differnt.
You cannot win. Give up.
I am a Dem, alwyas have been. What are you>?
Sad.
May 20, 2008 4:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Kicking Ass. The picture is the message.
May 20, 2008 4:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama is endorsing the notion that sovereignty no longer matters. He'll meet with free agent terrorists backers but not the head of Iran because the terrorists are more powerful?!!!
This is a foreign policy? I'm telling you this guy is not ready to be president.
Clinton is not just the best choice. She really is the only choice.
May 20, 2008 4:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sadly for you, fake fogu2, she's actually no longer a choice.
May 20, 2008 4:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Where did he say he'll meet with free agent terrorist backers but not heads of state?
May 20, 2008 4:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
fogu2 (the owned one) doesn't know that the president of Iran isn't the real government power, that Ali Khamenei is the Supreme Leader of Iran and the one who actually controls the military and pretty much all the important elements.
fogu2's understanding of Iran is sort of like McCain's.
May 20, 2008 5:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama is getting owned on national security like he will in KY.
May 20, 2008 4:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Total BS troll gotalife.
The only thing you are owned by is McSame
Sad
Obama was not my top choice, but I will bakc him if he is nominee
Enough is enough
May 20, 2008 4:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
Kicking Ass knocks the Fool-Aid out of Goatshite.
May 20, 2008 5:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
To my troll Friend.
Let's remind ourselves the naive Winston Churchill was willing to sit down with Michael Collins, the founder of modern terrorism, to grant Ireland free state status.
It's sad when I see people refusing to think and go on Dogma. Your principles are so blatantly in line with McCains that they don't really warrant much response.
Look, I love Hillary. I want her to be president. But I'm not going to sink the ship because she can't steer it. We need to stand firm, together, and even reach out to moderate republicans to ensure that thinking politics can prevail in this country.
Who's with me?
May 20, 2008 4:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fuck you.
May 20, 2008 5:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
It is over, Hillary gave her concession speech.
you can move on now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6Lstkiexhc
May 20, 2008 5:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
To my troll.
I'm not sure your two-worded retort is the kind of dialog we're going for. Care to try again?
I'm serious.
May 20, 2008 5:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fuck you.
Hands tiring?
May 20, 2008 5:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
I feel fine. Care to try your hands at an actual debate. Trolling probably gets monotonous.
May 20, 2008 5:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Kinda like Babs helping Greg Marmalard get his avatar up perhaps?
May 20, 2008 6:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Go New Fogu! You speak truth, my man.
May 20, 2008 6:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Liar.
Point to a single quote where he said he would meet with free-agent terrorists as opposed to heads of state.
You lost the argument once you make shit up.
May 20, 2008 4:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
I wonder if that is why Hillary lost the battle for the nomination?
May 20, 2008 5:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
um, no whichever fogu2 you are. he said he would meet with certain controversial foreign leaders/dictators with pre-conditions.
He would NOT meet with Hamas or any other terrorist organizaion.
He would NOT appease ever to anyone.
May 20, 2008 4:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fuck you.
May 20, 2008 4:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
The question, ... and how can he balance it with his efforts to steer the conversation back on to offense ...
And the notion that we would keep doing the same thing over and over and over again when it doesn't work and that somehow is a sign of toughness is extraordinarily naive
Calling the guy with expertise up the wazoo, naive does it nicely. If Obama can degrade the "years of service in DC" to "naive/poor judgment" that will go a long way to winning the national security argument and make the McCain Bush relationship an obvious conclusion.
May 20, 2008 4:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Coreection: Barack said And the notion that we would keep doing the same thing over and over and over again when it doesn't work and that somehow is a sign of toughness is extraordinarily naive
Calling the guy with expertise up the wazoo, naive does it nicely. If Obama can degrade the "years of service in DC" to "naive/poor judgment" that will go a long way to winning the national security argument and make the McCain Bush relationship an obvious conclusion.
May 20, 2008 4:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
That was an interesting exercise in pulling shit right out of your ass and posting it.
May 20, 2008 4:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
More like pulling the shit out of Obama's mouth.
May 20, 2008 5:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
goatshit?
May 20, 2008 5:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
...that be the shit you put into his mouth.
May 20, 2008 5:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Again - to my troll.
If you're going to try to faux post as the real Fogu2, you need to for complete sentences. I was NEVER that inarticulate.
But honestly though, beyond "shit" and "fuck you", what are the issues that are driving you right now? Let's talk about them.
Honestly, I don't know a single Hillary supporter that would back this kind of posting on your part.
May 20, 2008 6:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
rnydcwynxkcyducbaiLXBYCIUMP0ne:(cn
May 20, 2008 4:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
WTF???? Sorry, I think my daughter may have decided to send you all a message. Just about as coherent as gotalife's usual postings.
May 20, 2008 7:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
A Troll's Troll should be called:
A Doppelgangbanger.
May 20, 2008 4:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
What concerns me about all this foreign policy talk is that by picking the fight, McCain sets the topic of conversation and if he consitently talks foreign policy (which is his strongest issue) it means that there will be less talk about the economy (McCain's weakest issue).
BO has to find a way to rebut McCain foreign policy jabs while at the same time turn the tables and talk about the economy. Granted i think BO is responding well, but needs to turn the table and pick a fight regarding the economy. He cant continue to let McCain set the table of conversation.
May 20, 2008 4:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
And this is why we need an agreed-upon nominee sooner rather than later. Right now, Obama can't give a me-versus-McCain economic speech because he's still technically in the primary.
May 20, 2008 4:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes and no. If this conversation pays off for Obama, who cares who started it?
May 20, 2008 5:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, I don't mind that McCain's pitching if he's just going to lob it over the plate for Obama.
May 20, 2008 5:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
I could not disagree more. "Not letting them set the terms of the debate" and "switch the debate to the economy" is a fundementally defensive posture, one we followed for years and one that was mostly a losing strategy for us.
Everyone already knows Democrats will be better on the economy. The polling data shows that and has shown it for years. And yet, even in years when the polls showed the voters liked us much better on the economy, we kept getting our asses handed to us. Why?
Because we don't get extra points for re-winning fights we've already won. We only get more points if we can win fights we've have not yet won, the fights the other side thinks it wants to have with us.
The fundemental flaw of the DC Beltway Consultantocracy CW has been the belief that we can win small by winning the voters hearts and minds on the economy even if we lose them foreign policy, terrorism and defense. That wasn't true before the demise of the Soviet Union and it is not true now, in the wake of 9/11.
If we can beat the Republicans them on their own chosen ground--foreign policy, terrorism, defense--we win, and win big. If we win on the economy and they win on foreign policy, terrorism and defense, its a draw and the rules of the game are rigged such that we automatically lose that draw.
We can win big, lose big or lose small. There is no win small option for Democrats as long as there is a credible foreign threat.
May 20, 2008 6:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Absolutely. And Foreign Policy is not McCain's strong suit, that I can see. He's not offering anything beyond advocating more of what Bush has already pursued and that has done nothing for us. Obama's got him beat there. I say he should pursue that until McCain is trying to change the subject.
May 20, 2008 6:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm a firm believer in the surrogate approach. Obama needs to get some foreign policy experts out there, attacking McCain's stupid ideas. Also, Obama needs to keep reminding people, over and over, that we've tried the approach McCain is advocating and it hasn't worked.
May 20, 2008 4:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Greg: I think Obama has it exactly right. He hits back right away, otherwise, the MSM plays McCain's accusations and only Obama himself, not his aides, should be shown hitting back immediately, so both clips are shown the same day. And frankly, any time Obama responds to a McCain jab, McCain comes off looking weaker, in my opinion.
As for other policy, positive actions, those will be covered in the debates.
Kerry's fatal flaw was to not hit hard enough. Also, Obama hit back on the ad using Michelle's comments for a negative GOP ad campaign, and that ad has just been stopped due to his acting on it, again, in a very short time span.
May 20, 2008 4:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Greg: I have had nothing but problems logging on the last two days, FYI.
May 20, 2008 4:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
One other thing I'd like Obama to mention: McCain said today that we would insist that Cuba release its political prisoners. I would like Obama to ask him how he planned to get his message across if he isn't willing to meet with the Cubans. Does he plan to rely on telepathy, perhaps?
May 20, 2008 4:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Throw a message in a bottle off the coast of Florida.
May 20, 2008 4:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'd be tempted to turn around and ask McWar about OUR prisoners in Cuba.
May 20, 2008 4:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
We could try sanctions.
Oh wait.
May 20, 2008 4:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
I waited all day for this and it was totally worth it.
May 20, 2008 4:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama counter punching McCain, on daily basis shows that the championship bout has begun. That leaves Hillary out of the ring. Get it?. It is not about how effective Obama's punches are at the start of the bout, it is about the fact that he is in the championship fight now, and Hillary is not, thereby closing the door on her claim to being a contender.
May 20, 2008 4:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am so confused, this truly is like a bad Star Trek episode.
How is it technically possible that two different people can be using the same user name?
Who is the real gotalife and the real fogu2?
Tena, I trust you, can you help me out.
Thanks.
May 20, 2008 4:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Why me?
I'm ignoring the whole thing, darlin.
That's my advice to you and everyone else - let them argue amongst themselves - it's a Sockpuppet Rodeo.
May 20, 2008 4:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sockpuppet Rodeo
You are simply hilarious!
May 20, 2008 5:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
OT, but conversation may have been overstating it a bit - you might have signed off for the day before my response was posted.
Trying to give hints where i can... which is proving difficult in the midst of all the confusion today, lol :)
May 20, 2008 5:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, like how do I know you're the real TrollCritic, anyway?
Haven't figured out the doppelganger yet.
May 20, 2008 5:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
I was thinking a Troll Laugh-a-lympics, but we can go with the rodeo motif. :)
I fear that this sockpuppet will soon be without purpose if it continues. :(
May 20, 2008 5:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Round-up might be better. Might also find all those missing socks form the dryer as well.
May 20, 2008 5:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
You don't get it.
The more my avatar is up the better.
Fire away idiots.
May 20, 2008 5:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
My troll seems to be a fan of my old avatar. He's welcome to it, because I no longer have any need for it.
I now see that the politics of divisiveness has no place in the Democratic party. We need to not only be unifying ourselves, but also reaching out to like-minded independents and moderate Republicans.
This country does not belong to the GOP. It belongs to the American citizens, who have been misrepresented for too long.
If my troll would like to debate me on this, he's welcome to it.
I'm serious - would anyone like to arrange for an online debate on TPM between me, Fogu2, and my Fogu2 troll? So long as we stay positive, I'm all for it.
May 20, 2008 5:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fuck you.
Keep em comin!
May 20, 2008 5:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
To my troll,
You do realize, if you "keep 'em comin'" - we'd actualy be debating.
I'm happy to do this. I think a constructive dialog is what makes us Democrats special, don't you?
So look, let's talk about our differences abd work out what's best for our party and our country. What do you have to say?
May 20, 2008 6:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
You have to get your avatar up before you can get to the coming part.
May 20, 2008 6:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't mean to make fun - but can I please have a better troll?
Honestly, all my posts in the past, even if you didn't agree - were much better written. I feel I'm matched up against a David Mamet extra.
May 20, 2008 6:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Sockpuppet Rodeo." How exquisitely pluperfect: You are my goddess, Tena. Right after the lovely-but-never-attainable Rachael Maddow, that is.
May 20, 2008 5:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
There was a realignment of the stars. Fogu and GotALife have now split into two personalities each - one for the force of Good and one for the Force of Evil.
We expect that other trolls may suffer the same fate, if the don't voluntarily choose to moderate their message.
I'm predicting that "Present" could be the next to fall.
May 20, 2008 6:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'd be more scared of Romney (if he'd won the nom) than I am of McCain right now. I just see this guy as Dole Redux.
May 20, 2008 4:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Probably true, but there were times, too, when Romney came off as dumb as a post.
May 20, 2008 5:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
You bring up a good point. If McCain is viewed as old and wise, his VP will presumably be young and charismatic, and potentially an offering to the far right.
It's my hope that the Democratic VP is someone like a Webb, Zinni or McCaskill, who I feel would be more than apt to hold their own in a debate.
Perhaps my troll would like to chime in on this one. Who would you like to see for a Democratic VP pick?
May 20, 2008 6:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
I just can't imagine that McSame and his team of lobbyist/campaign strategists expected Obama to hit back so hard and so effectively. They were hoping to throw him back on his heels, show him as weak and confused, and then use that to further define him as an elitist kid with no taste for the toughness needed in a world leader. Looks like it's not working out like they planned.
May 20, 2008 4:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
I really see no problem here with Obama "playing defense". As they say, defense wins championships.
The fact that Obama is able not only to counter McCain on the facts, but also to do so in a way that implies directly that McCain is actively trying to deceive the American people - that's going to prove very effective, I think. This is a strategy he couldn't fully employ against a fellow Dem in the primary, but won't hesitate to do through the November election.
May 20, 2008 4:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Me neither. I was frustrated with Kerry because he fucking refused to play "defense" until he was cornered and then always had to fight his way back from a position of weakness because he waited too long.
Obama answers well and quickly and shit, he's being interviewed and has to answer the damn questions - so how this means he walks a fine line is kind of lost to me.
Frankly, Greg. No offense.
May 20, 2008 5:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is what I kept saying when Edwards people were saying that Obama wasn't tough enough, and when people were worried if he'd be able to handle the Republicans just because he had held back against Hillary. Now we get to see him in action, masterfully. McCain doesn't have a chance, Obama is a prizefighter, he is like greased lightning. By the time McCain finishes throwing a punch Obama has already dodged, ran behind McCain, pulled his pants over his head and given him a lightning fast beating.
No contest, I'm ready to call this thing for Obama in November.
May 20, 2008 5:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't know about prize fighter, but I've watched him play basketball, and he's good. He is fast and he has a wicked feint to the right and then lightning fast move to the left that I love.
As he says - he cannot move to the right.
May 20, 2008 5:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Besides which, if I'm not mistaken, Obama graduated No. 1 in his class at Harvard Law School. That doesn't just happen; you have to be SUPER competitive (as well as super smart).
May 20, 2008 5:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't know about class ranking but he was president of the Harvard Law Review, which is pretty impressive by itself.
May 20, 2008 5:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Couldn't confirm his class ranking, but he did graduate Magna Cum Laude.
May 20, 2008 5:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Now there's your stereotype right there folks.
May 20, 2008 5:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fuck you.
May 20, 2008 5:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Look, I've used a racist avatar in the past, and said a lot of things that were way out of line.
I apologize, pure and simple.
I think it's very important that I roll in on my troll right now, and call him out on the racist statement he just made. There is no place for that kind of talk on this post, or any.
If he wants to talk substance, by all means please do. However, let's leave the bigots to the Drudge Report.
Anyone want to second that?
May 20, 2008 5:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fuck you.
May 20, 2008 5:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
If that's my troll's best argument against bigotry, I think we may have a problem.
May 20, 2008 5:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fuck you.
Fun!
May 20, 2008 5:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
You need to expand your skillz in talking dirty if you want to get your avatar up.
May 20, 2008 5:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think your troll may just be a ghost in the machine and not a real human being. If it were a real human being it would be able to say more than just, "Fuck you," over and over again.
Think of it as Cyber God's retribution on you for all your past sins. In time it will dwindle away to nothing kind of like the floppy disk of years gone past. Until then just post your posts and try to ignore its vulgarity.
May 20, 2008 5:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Floppy being the operative word, since it is so big on "getting its avatar up"
;-)
May 20, 2008 6:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Because Obama doesn't like to play 3 on 3 pick-up games that even make it into the news?
May 20, 2008 5:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
The Republicans have to be seen as unequivocally dominating the foreign-policy debate and elevating it to the point that it casts a large shadow over the issue of the economy (which I don't think McCain can win this year). If they don't achieve that, they're in big trouble, especially given the current level of discontent among voters.
This back and forth, even if it only achieves the appearance of two plausible positions going toe to toe (and I think it might be achieving more than that), won't be enough to offset the Republicans disadvantages on other big issues and in relation to the "change" platform in general.
And this is where I agree with Greg. Despite how well he's doing it, Obama has been responding the last few days. That's been just fine so far because it's sent McCain a message and caused Republican "toughness" on foreign policy to stagger on its putative pedestal. But eventually you reach a point of diminishing returns with this approach. McCain won't topple from sheer exhaustion.
Obama's recovered the Democrats' footing. Soon he needs to throw some punches of his own. He needs to take this momentum and the themes running through his responses (same-old policies, naivete, out-of-touch, Bush third term) and reinforce them across this and other issues by attacking McCain's existing positions himself. Then he'll have not only played successful defense, but fully pivoted (his defenses themselves already partially pivot) to go on offense against a fundamentally weakened opponent.
May 20, 2008 5:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think he will once we have tonight's primaries behind us and the nomination battle is conclusively put to be. The sooner Clinton suspends her campaign, the more room Obama has to plant his feet and throw those punches without stepping on part of the Democratic base (i.e. Hillary supporters)
May 20, 2008 5:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yup.
The sooner Hillary turns loose, the quicker Obama can turn his complete attention to McCain and run a few plays of his own.
I'd run right up the gut with "economy" and "Iraq" sharing the ball-toting load.
May 20, 2008 5:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
This seems fine to me. Each time Obama defends himself he pretty much points out how daft McCain is on matters related to foreign policy. Using the word "naive" is just wonderful, he is turning a supposed strength (McCain's knowledge of foreign policy and military experience) into a weakness. Right out of the GOP playbook and turnabout is fair play!
May 20, 2008 5:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Biden, Dodd and Richardson were all out in force today with speeches (Biden) or statements (Dodd and Richardson).
May 20, 2008 5:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm loving me some Democrats these days!
I surely am!
May 20, 2008 5:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm really serious though - if McWar brings up political prisoners of Castro's, then I wish to hell that Obama or someone would turn right around and bring up Gitmo and torture.
Strike while it's hot - and right now it's hot -
May 20, 2008 5:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Greg,
A couple of the posters here have made the point I was about to make, and it seems to have sailed over your head. It's only necessary to strike a balance if you view the two as separate things. In fact, the points are one and the same. The attacks are mostly frivolous and shallow and as such are a continuation of the Rovian smear tactics which are a cover for the entire failed Presidency. They're not separate things.
May 20, 2008 5:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
I totally agree with you.
They are the same thing.
May 20, 2008 5:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think Obama's timing here is fine. He's responding quickly and forcefully without even breaking a sweat, which serves to frustrate McCain and keep the Republicans off balance.
Working it this way keeps him totally in the general election ring, but without initiating it, which would certainly be seen as a slight to Clinton somehow.
There's plenty of time once the primary is over to go on the offense. These are early rounds. Let McCain wear himself out making these jabs that he can't ever quite land.
May 20, 2008 5:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
May 20, 2008 5:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fuck I hate not having a preview function when an html tag goes off the reservation.
May 20, 2008 5:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
May 20, 2008 5:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think that's what he did, no?
May 20, 2008 5:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, he did. And he needs to keep doing it. Rope-a-dope doesn't work in politics.
May 20, 2008 7:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
But style as much as substance is important. Obama has to show he can fight back, even as he lays out substantive solutions. It's the only way to beat them.
May 20, 2008 6:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama better be careful lest McCain find some Mentum on this issue
May 20, 2008 5:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Mentum sounds like some sort of anti-arthritis liniment.
May 20, 2008 5:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
and Denture Adhesive! It's two treats in one!
May 20, 2008 5:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
May 20, 2008 6:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm confused - "can you see the real me, can you, can you..."
Guess I could always go for the inarticulate swear.
I'm a fuckhead - i mean, fuck me once...
Daisy, daisy.
May 20, 2008 6:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Barack Obama will do as he has always done--keep his eyes on the Presidency, his mind on his campaign and his heart with the American people.
John McCain, and the Felonious Mrs. McCain, will self-destruct early in the Fall contest. It won't be any other way. The United States of America will not have a doddering remnant of Vietnam, that has never put down his sword, and a an unconvicted Felon as First Lady in our White House. Never.
May 20, 2008 8:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Appeasers" who have caught hell from the far right:
John F. Kennedy for promising not to invade Cuba if missiles were withdrawn by Russia
Dwight D. Eisenhower for inviting Khrushchev to the United States
Ronald Reagan for reaching arms control agreement with Gorbachev
Obama for even suggeting talking with our foes
"Appeasers" who have not caught hell from the far right:
George W. Bush for talking and negotiating with Libya, North Korea and Iran
May 21, 2008 3:45 PM | Reply | Permalink