Hillary Camp Again Invokes Florida Recount Debacle; Obama Camp Says They're Not Encouraging Protests
One thing that had all but vanished from the campaign with Obama close to winning were the daily conference calls that Hillary and Obama advisers had been convening to push the day's spin.
But today, with Saturday's confrontation over Florida and Michigan looming, both sides held calls to lay the groundwork for making their cases this Saturday.
One thing worth noting: The campaigns' positions on the expected protests before the Rules and Bylaws Committee. On the Obama call, campaign manager David Plouffe confirmed that Obama's camp is not encouraging supporters to show up and protest, drawing an implicit contrast between the Obama and Hillary camps.
"We are not encouraging our people to gather in protest on Saturday," Plouffe said. "Obviously with the click of a mouse it would be pretty easy for us to get thousands of people there." He added that they weren't doing that "in the interest of party unity."
Meanwhile, on the Hillary call, Hillary top strategist Howard Wolfson, asked about the protests being organized by Hillary supporters, said his campaign wasn't behind them but again invoked the 2000 Florida recount debacle.
"This is not something that the campaign is organizing," Wolfson said, "but it is in fact something that people in Florida feel very strongly about. Given what happened in Florida in 2000 it's understandable that people feel very strongly."
Late Update: Audio recordings of both the Clinton and Obama calls are available after the jump.
Here's the Hillary call:
And the Obama call:
Classy, and a sharp contrast to the Clinton campaign's ham-handed attempts at political theater. I have a feeling the superdels are finally going to get bored with her antics soon.
May 28, 2008 1:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes. On the one hand, we have a grown-up. And on the other, a three-year-old spoiled brat. Quite the contrast.
May 29, 2008 9:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
i guess there iso ne thing in common with the 2000 debacle: there may not be tanks in the streets, but who needs tanks when you have rioters trying to intimidate those making the decisions.
gotta love democracy...you don't need violence when the threat of violence is enough.
May 28, 2008 1:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Breaking:
From the desk of:
Terrible McAwful
Senator Hillary Turdblossom Clinton plans to petition the Electoral College to cancel the November election, and declare her to be the next President. She has persuasive poll evidence that should convince them that John McCain has no chance of winning, so why even hold the election. A clear example is: He will have no chance to win the support, in November, of even a single Puerto Rican voter.
May 28, 2008 1:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes because what happen in 2000, is exactly the same as to what is happening now...
I wonder if they really believe there own BS.
I also wonder what there objective is at this point.
Do they really think they still have a chance of winning in 08 or are they going for 2012. I really cant tell anymore their spiral into insanity is quite sad.
May 28, 2008 1:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
And no matter how specious our argument is, we're just going to keep picking at that wound until we get what we want.
May 28, 2008 1:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Florida has closed primaries. How is this in any way like 2000 when the jurisdiction is allowed to exclude people from voting?
May 28, 2008 2:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Got to wonder where all those angry Floridians were when their Republican governor etc. broke the rules and upped their primary date? Someone should remind them that one reaps what one sows.
May 28, 2008 2:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
Any more hints about their strategy for Saturday? Such as who is speaking on the behalf of each campaign? Where will the candidates themselves be during this meeting?
May 28, 2008 1:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
The Winning Side:
By Robbie O'Connell
Ah but justice is a fickle thing
One law for the common man, another for the king
And don't you know when kings can't win the game
It won't be long 'til all the rules are changed
And it's all justified when you're on the winning side
http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/I/8/2/changing-the-rules-lk0523ad.jpg
May 28, 2008 1:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wouldn't what happened in 2000 be a good reason not to trust the Florida results?
May 28, 2008 1:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
BOOM!
May 28, 2008 1:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Is it really necessary to give the Clinton campaign what amounts to free airtime for their unexpurgated claptrap? I go to blogs to read news, not fantasy.
May 28, 2008 1:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
less then a week to go until its over for her, Hell ill just be happy when Sat comes so we can get some results on MI/FL since they have been bitching about it non stop ever since they started to lose.
May 28, 2008 1:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
The big event on Saturday is going to be her poor showing in PR that will end all the BS ablut being ahead in the popular vote.
May 28, 2008 1:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well atm Obama is ahead by around 500,000 votes. So as long as she doesn't win by a margin that gives her that many votes ill be happy with the primary there. Of course i would like to know how the caucus became a primary and was moved up. If anyone has any Intel on how that came about id like to know.
May 28, 2008 1:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
You are not using ClintonMath tm. She will be behind even by that false measure by next Tuesday evening.
May 28, 2008 1:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
Iam not sure about that, if your using Clinton math then you cant use caucus states or states with a AA vote of under 5 percent or over 20 percent.
May 28, 2008 2:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
We all know by now, she will not abide by that outcome of Saturday's meeting. She will take it to the convention floor, and when she doesn't get the decision she wants - all supers and pledged coming to their senses, she will take it to court, and when that doesn't work out for her; she will take it to the inauguration. Is there anyone who doesn’t know this by now?!?!??!!?
May 28, 2008 2:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
what a great way for hill and bill to introduce the drama to a whole new generation of voters. although this time we won't be forced to defend them against a rebup onslaught. hillarys protester can give it up to the oil companies or are they car pooling? We have seen the low info voter and they ain't rich.
May 28, 2008 1:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Like sand in the hand
Clinton's chances are fading
The wind blows fiercely
May 28, 2008 1:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hillary drama
Unhinged from reality
Through the looking glass
May 28, 2008 3:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Perhaps if Mr. & Mrs. Clinton had not been so 'ethically challenged' during Bubba's administration, the country would almost certainly have elected Gore and the 2000 Florida debacle would have never taken place.
Now they're doing their best to create a second one.
If the Clintons keep this up and McCain wins the election, I know exactly where I'll lay some of the blame when we find ourselves at war with Iran (which, conveniently Hillary also helped bring on when she was THE ONLY DEMOCRAT to vote in favor of labeling the Iranian Revolutionary Guard as a terrorist organization, thereby giving the President a green light to strike).
She is a traitor to her party and her nation.
May 28, 2008 1:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
To clarify: The Iranian Revolutionary Guard is a very dangerous group, but they ARE NOT worth plunging this country into another disastrous preemptive war over, particularly since we've haven't even given diplomacy a shot yet.
May 28, 2008 1:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Why is the Hillary camp pushing this RBC meeting when they know that its futile? Are they looking for someone to point the finger at when the nomination process is over?
May 28, 2008 1:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Bingo.
When the RBC shuts down her fantasyland chances, Hillaryland will scream that the party insiders and not the voters have thrown the nomination to Obama, and onward march to the convention like King Pyrrhus of Epirus.
May 28, 2008 2:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Do the Florida 2000 comparisons raise red flags for anyone else? This gets at my legitimacy post from yesterday. If Hillary persuades her supporters that some travesty of justice has taken place and that Obama's nomination is illegitimate, it will be much harder to unite them behind Obama.
May 28, 2008 1:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
I read your legitimacy post and agree with the basic premise with respect to popular vote. For the compromise on Florida/Michigan Delegates though I think the Clinton's will have a much harder case to claim "foul". Saturday's meeting will likely end with a resolution supported by the committee (including at least some Clinton supporters) where each side will be expected to give a little. Obama's camp has already said they are willing to do that, i.e. accept the 69-59 split in MI. When Clinton screams disenfranchisment or appeals the decision, her argument for legitimacy will be undercut, IMO. Sure her deadenders will fight to the death, but I believe many of the millions of Democrats who voted for her will see that she is trying to fight against the Party at the point. Maybe that is wishful thinking, but that's the way I see Saturday coming down.
May 28, 2008 1:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
I had assumed that the hardline position was simply a negotiating tactic for this meeting. But this talk of Florida 2000 makes me concerned that she'll try to push this issue aggressively all the way to convention. I'm probably being needlessly anxious, but I don't understand Clinton's motivations at this point, so I no longer feel that she's predictable.
Most of them, sure. But I expect that there are millions of hard core Clinton supporters looking for an excuse for self-righteous anger. Perceptions of voter disenfranchisement could provide that, which would create problems for Dem unity.
May 28, 2008 2:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
She is predictable, Genghis, but she is not reasonable. You can predict that she will go to whatever lengths she must to ensure that she wins. And given that, we must unite to ensure that she is stopped. You want unity? Me, too. And Hillary will not allow that. Hillary must go, so that we can move on and deal with McCain and make some decisions regarding how to put this country together again after 8 years of ruinous government under Bush.
May 28, 2008 2:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
What I don't understand is how she can still believe that she can win. What is the point at which she accepts the inevitable? We'll find out soon enough. Next week, Obama will have the win in total committed delegates. I'll reserve judgment until we see how Clinton responds to that.
May 28, 2008 2:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
My glass half full approach would point out that she has 17 million primary voters. If (a little over) half are hold outs that is 9 million. If half of those cast protest votes for McCain, that is 5 million.
In 2004, 122 million people voted. I expect this year that will easily top 130. While a big chunk of Clinton defectors could theoretically swing the election, her vengeful deadenders (using my math) will make up less than 4% of the electorate.
I also looked at her primary vote totals in the big states. She got over 1 million votes in California (2.6 mill), New York (1.1), Pennsylvania (1.26), Ohio (1.25), and Texas (1.4). The only swing states here are PA and OH where Obama already leads McCain in polling.
Obama needs to overcome the disgruntled voter margin in his key swing states. It's just another obstacle for a black man named Barack Hussein Obama. No sweat.
May 28, 2008 2:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think 25% is an incredibly high estimate of how many Hillary supporters will really vote for McCain.
May 28, 2008 2:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't really believe that there will be a lot of Clinton holdouts in the end, but I would not be at all sanguine at 4%. The following states were decided by less than 4% in '04 (from wikipedia):
1. Wisconsin, Kerry, 0.38%
2. Iowa, Bush, 0.67%
3. New Mexico, Bush, 0.79%
4. New Hampshire, Kerry, 1.37%
5. Ohio, Bush, 2.11%
6. Pennsylvania, Kerry, 2.50%
7. Nevada, Bush, 2.59%
8. Michigan, Kerry, 3.42%
9. Minnesota, Kerry, 3.48%
Moreover, if the vengeful Clinton supporters were to actually vote for McCain, the actual margin would be 8%.
May 28, 2008 2:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fair enough, let's just hope I'm wrong about the number of deadenders and that the Hillster actually does what she has said and supports the Democratic nominee.
May 28, 2008 3:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
I can certainly agree with you on that.
May 28, 2008 3:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Indeed they do. Florida has closed primaries. How is this in any way like 2000 when a political party is allowed to exclude groups of people from voting?
May 28, 2008 2:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
We know that's what she has been doing since she visited FL and talked about Zimbabwe. She's prepping her supporters to see him as illegitimate al la bush 2000.
May 28, 2008 2:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
"...both sides held calls to lay the groundwork for making their cases this Saturday"
Clinton's position is clear, seat the delegates as voted.
What exactly is Obama's stated position? Can anyone link any statements from Obama as to what his specific position is given that he has said repeatedly he will accept whatever the DNC decides?
May 28, 2008 1:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
You will know what his position is when you see the decision that comes out of the meeting. He will dominate the process. There are no lowinformation voters that can be duped by Clinton on the comittee
May 28, 2008 1:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think you answered your own question.
May 28, 2008 2:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
I can't find the link, but his camp indicated at the time that they would accept Michigan's compromise that gave her a 69-59 pledged delegate margin there.
I'm guessing with Edwards' backing he'd be willing to accept Florida vote as it stood. Assuming he picks up the majority of Edward's Florida delegates, she would net 25-30 there.
One tricky part of this for Obama is to legitimize the delegates while squashing the "popular vote" concept.
May 28, 2008 2:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
Here's the link indicating Obama is receptive to the 69-59 split in Michigan:
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0508/Michigan_Dems_to_DNC_Well_split_the_difference_.html
May 28, 2008 2:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
A more than fair solution that Hillary rejected. Interesting...it's almost as if it's not really about coming to a fair solution.
May 28, 2008 2:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Spot on.
May 28, 2008 4:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
From the very beginning, Obama has said to just tell him what the rules are and he will try to win the nomination using those rules. Clinton's people didn't even know about the Texas primary-caucus system or that delegates were assigned proportionately to the vote, not winner take all.
Obama understood the rules and won using those rules. He will abide by whatever the RBC does but they should recognize who won using the rules given to all sides at teh beginning of this process.
May 28, 2008 2:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama's position has been clear and consistent in this race from day one. Follow the fucking rules as agreed too.
May 28, 2008 2:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
It is time for Gore to step up and put an end to this "like Florida 2000" nonsense by endorsing Obama.
May 28, 2008 1:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
LuxVeritas: Exactly. Al Gore is the trump card on this illegitimacy line of attack going on right now. If the meeting gets scarily out of hand Saturday - which it probably will - then Gore will have to help on the Sunday shows to end this talk. Hopefully on June 4th, Gore will also be in the mood to endorse and end this thing.
May 28, 2008 2:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes. He is the one person with the personal and moral authority to shame her on this bullshit.
Time to come down off Mt. Olympus, Al.
May 29, 2008 9:23 AM | Reply | Permalink
This will be exciting! Now we can see if a crowd of chanting gotalifes and fogu2s can impress the DNC and delegates with their ability to chant!
May 28, 2008 1:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Is that why Hillary has an email option for supporters to bombard DNC members with about Florida and Michigan on her SITE? Her campaigns' not behind these protests? Yeh right!
May 28, 2008 1:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
Howard Wolfson is a LIAR...I know who wudda thunk, I live in Florida and people who work on the Hillary campaign here are the ones that raised the money for the FREE buses and food etc for the protests...As usual this will backfire on the Clintons as they will look like the unpresidential group and LOW INFO LOW CLASS voters that they really have been and will ALWAYS be!
May 28, 2008 2:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
The question is, are the people organizing it paid staffers or volunteers? That's what distinguishes whether Wolfson is lying or just being highly misleading. If they just hinted to volunteers that it would be great if they could go to DC and then kept their hands off, then he's technically not lying. Sure, it's BS either way, because they could have asked their volunteers not to do it, just like the Obama campaign has, but there is a small difference.
May 28, 2008 2:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Senator Obama did not write the DNC rules. He does not enforce the DNC rules. States that violate the rules that they signed off on must be penalized, or no states will ever again abide by the rules.
You can not punish all the states that followed the rules, by allowing the two states that willfully violated the rules, to become Queen makers.
We do not allow the criminals to run the courts.
May 28, 2008 2:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Except Obama proposed changing the rules in the middle of the game by seating half the delegations. Doh! He's evil!
Blow job! Penis! MONICA!!!!!!!!!!!
LMAO
May 28, 2008 2:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oye! That isn't changing the rules....That's the automatic sanction the DNC rules provide for when a state is determined to have broken the rules about timing of their primary.
May 28, 2008 2:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
You can stop lying now.
May 28, 2008 2:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
How much more damage will the democratic party let her do? She is destroying everything she can. And she does expect to be the VP with such attitude.
I don't think so!!!
And then she is wondering why the majority of the people feel negative about her. I think she has become one of the worse politician ever!!!
May 28, 2008 2:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
I feel that Hillary Clinton is going to get the delegates from michigan and florida seated and the popular vote counted..... based on the jan. 15 results:)
Hillary is going to win Puerto Rico HUGE and is going to win Montana but likely lose South Dakota.
Hillary is going to win the Popular vote in all 6 tallies that are shown on RCP.COM website by June 3rd.
I feel a change coming.... everyone on TPM Mark my words.... she is the winner by June 3rd....
GO HILLARY!!!!!!!!!!!
May 28, 2008 2:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Put down the Crack Pipe.
May 28, 2008 2:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Marked.
May 28, 2008 2:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Should I mark them in pencil for when none of those precitions come true?
May 28, 2008 2:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Nice to see you get all hopey on us.
May 28, 2008 2:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
If she takes the election after losing by all metrics, the Democratic Party will be dead in the water...Dean et al., aren't stupid. This whole thing has become a farce. I've said before I thought she was either trying to make Obama's nomination seem illegitimate and trying to take the nomination at the convention through some unsavory shenanigans or trying to blackmail her way onto the ticket.
It seems Obama rebuffed her for the VP slot, that leaves only one other option. Get your brass knuckles ready, we might have a convention floor fight to attend.
If it goes that far, I don't see her having a career like Ted Kennedy's. It'll be a brutal defeat and one the Clinton's are coming very close to deserving. I don't see any mercy being offered like it was a couple weeks ago.
May 28, 2008 3:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sweetheart, I soooo want some of your happy pills. If I had those pills, I could sit here and say my bank balance will magically triple, and my old jeans will magically fit, and that mass of papers in the corner of my office will magically file itself!
May 28, 2008 3:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Intentional or unintentional parody?
May 29, 2008 9:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
I see Kamp Klinton is inhaling its own flatulence again...
May 28, 2008 2:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Greg,
Here's what I don't get:
Florida has closed primaries. How can this in any way be a civil rights issue, related to 2000, etc. if a jurisdiction excludes people from voting?
May 28, 2008 2:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's not, and that's what makes it disgraceful. Fighting to get things counted so you win is just politics, and that's fine. Co-opting civil rights language when they have to know it's not really true undermines true civil rights struggles (by providing ammunition for those who argue that those true struggles are just partisanship.) Doing that for personal gain is just wrong.
May 28, 2008 2:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yup, to the convention floor.
May 28, 2008 2:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Maybe as a janitor. But that's the only way Hillary gets to the convention.
May 28, 2008 2:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
BREAKING: New Puerto Rico poll - Clinton 51, Obama 38.
May 28, 2008 2:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thumpin!
May 28, 2008 2:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
And the relevance of how Puerto Rico votes in the GE is what again?
May 28, 2008 2:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Still loses.
May 28, 2008 2:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
That would split the delegates 32-23 for Clinton. With 23, he would need another 23 to get to 2026 (assuming no more Supers announce). The delegate threshold (2026, 2210, or somewhere in between) will be be crossed on June 3 or 4.
May 28, 2008 2:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
And then 47 up for grabs in Montana and South Dakota, two states he'll win.
Hello nomination!
May 28, 2008 2:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
14th Amendment Equal Protection Clause. See ya in court.
May 28, 2008 2:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Doesn't apply in this case. Not even close. Nice try.
May 28, 2008 2:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
ROFL
Every court case about party nomination cases are thrown out. This is party nomination process, not an election for governmental office. A political party can choose its nominee for office by tiddlywinks if they so decides, and every court case and precedent (including the Constitution) will back that up.
You haven't the foggiest notion of what you are talking about.
May 28, 2008 2:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
100% agreed. And it won't keep Sen Clinton from going to court anyway.
May 28, 2008 3:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
If she does that, she has no future in the Democratic Party. She has to know that. I sincerely doubt that even her ambition has limits.
May 28, 2008 3:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
She already has one foot in the political grave. "Obliteration" indictes deep Thelma and Louise. In this cruscible, anything may be forged.
May 28, 2008 3:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's dumb.
May 28, 2008 3:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
This ever-more-bizarre Clintonian farce will not reach the convention floor. The Supers are not suicidal. The Democratic Party and its viable future are of far greater importance to them than the wild-eyed demands of the ego-tripping Clintons. They will end the misery decisively by June 4th. I intend just to relax and watch it all unfold. Smiles, everyone! Smiles!
May 28, 2008 2:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Agreed.
May 28, 2008 2:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fast-forward to January 19:
Hillary Clinton: Millions of people voted for me and I'm not giving up without a fight. Barack Obama may have won 310 electoral votes in 23 states, but for some reason he doesn't appeal to the all-important "dumb white people" segment of the voters the way I do.
May 28, 2008 3:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Senator Obama did not write the DNC rules. He does not enforce the DNC rules. States that violate the rules that they signed off on must be penalized, or no states will ever again abide by the rules.
You can not punish all the states that followed the rules, by allowing the two states that willfully violated the rules, to become Queen makers.
We do not allow the criminals to run the courts.
May 28, 2008 2:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
hillary clinton has more supporters on the rule committe board then what obama has..... so likely to favor her:)
May 28, 2008 2:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Technically true, but the remaining uncommitted committee members -- all of whom are expected to support Obama's POV -- combined with Obama's committed committee members, will override the initial Clinton "edge."
May 28, 2008 2:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
What is the matter with you guys, today? Are you clueless, or are you just being assholes?
8 meaningless stories pretending Hillary is still in the race---MCCLELLAN IS THE STORY OF THE DAY, TH WEEK, AND BEYOND!!!!!!!!!!!1
May 28, 2008 2:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Seriously. I'm not one to jump on Greg and Eric, but it's pretty ridiculous.
May 28, 2008 2:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
True, but to be fair, this is Election Central part of TPM which is about elections and races, not Muckraker or the front-page news section.
May 28, 2008 2:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
i am happy to see that the new puerto rico poll shows clinton winning..... GO HILLARY!!!!
May 28, 2008 2:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
And I am happy that Obama is beating the crap out of McCain 293-245 electorally in head-to-head match-ups.
GO DEMOCRATS!!!
May 28, 2008 2:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Forgot the link
May 28, 2008 2:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
My favorite site as well. The guy is totally spot on with projections. Also, its interesting that this far out obama is that far ahead. McCain has been getting a free ride. Imagine the numbers when this nightmare is over, whether August or June depending on if the right-wing media keeps regurgitating the clintons' talking points.
May 28, 2008 3:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
w00t!
And he's only just begun campaigning against McLame!!!!!
This could be such a great election - ok, calm down - I need to work to keep from getting my hopes up too high - but it's really hard not to.
McLame's campaign is already in trouble and Obama hasn't hardly even left his corner.
I'll say this - I'm loving this so far - a lot.
May 28, 2008 3:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Note to Florida Dems/Clintonistas: Stop acting like America's dingleberry hanging off the ass of the South.
May 28, 2008 2:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
14th Amendment does mean squat here. It's all up to the Lawyers now and how they read the statistics from Michigan and Florida. Thanks McGovern and Carter! because of you two, the DNC wrote rules to keep extreme and popular candidates out of the race.
May 28, 2008 3:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Huh?
May 28, 2008 3:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Lestatdelc: don't weak Dems outnumber weak Repubs in that projection?
May 28, 2008 3:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Are there no stories about the political implications of the McClellan story for the political race between the two politicians who will be running for president? Regarding the election in November?
This is, after all, election central.
May 28, 2008 3:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
If Hillary is foolish and self-destructive enough to consider an attempt to litigate this matter, she will A) lose massively and be forced to retreat in utter humiliation, and B) become a pariah in the Democratic Party, never to hold office again. Choose wisely, Mrs. Clinton....
May 28, 2008 3:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Do not your points A and B reflect where she as of this very moment?
Nonetheless, an irrational history predicts a lunatic future: she will be going to court. I give it at least even odds.
May 28, 2008 3:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'll give you 2 to 1 and she will lose in any event. It kind of shows you how good of a lawyer she was. Why is it that all of our political leaders nowadays want to pretend that the constitution doesn't exist. Pathetic.
May 28, 2008 3:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Harvard lawyers are better than Yale lawyers...Obama wins!!
May 28, 2008 3:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Well, you know, It's clear, this election they(Florida & Michigan) are having is not going to count for anything,"
Hillary Clinton Jan. 15.
Riight.
May 28, 2008 3:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
that's gonna hurt in her deposition....
May 28, 2008 3:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
I guess that depends on what the definition of is is. She can always ask mr. bill for advice.
May 28, 2008 3:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
roflmao!
LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
that just really cracked my shit up - you laid out there in such a way that it was delivered very drily.
That is one of the comments of the day.
May 28, 2008 3:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
I was talking to Furstenburg there.
and the reply system fails us yet again...
it's such a good idea, too.
May 28, 2008 3:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
this thing will come down to the legal boys and girls either in the reading of the existing party rules, or in litigation. My anecdotal perception is that Barrack's alums are all high powered attorneys pulling in 7 figs/year, while Hillary's alums just teach law. Should be a classic battle between the academics and the sharks. My money is on the lawyers with fins...how ironic if the dems sue again in FLA..this time against their own...
May 28, 2008 4:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Luckily in this situation, the clintons lawsuits would be DOA. As Lestatdelc pointed out, the party can pick its nominee by tiddlywinks if it wanted to. The rules are the rules and there is not a gd thing that the clintons can do about them, except whine and play the media. Legally, they don't have a leg to stand on. If this were a general election issue, it would be a whole different matter. It's the party nomination process.
Bottom line, it's a shame that the clintons care so little about people and the democratic party and continue with this nonsense.
May 28, 2008 4:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Michael: I don't think it is DOA..As the DNC tries to figure out what to do about FLA and MI (their rules committee has the authority to seat 'some' of the delegates - probably half-seated or delegate votes only count 1/2 value), their analysis is a legal one..and where lawyers make legal judgments, there's always a bus-load of attorneys who disagree with those judgments...BTW, a strategist for the FLA Democratic party just got the door closed on him by a Federal judge..the appeal comes next!! And this suit was filed BEFORE the Florida primary..the train is loaded with coal and on a fast track to a Supreme Court! Woohoo!
May 28, 2008 4:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
See, the issue is the court system is not going to get involved in a nomination fight or issue that is solely within the party. Legally, it really can't. It's a constitutional minefield that court's generally don't want to get involved in. Even the Supreme's won't get involved in this one.
Part of the problem is that the dem party is not ignoring its own rules. The clintons are trying to ignore the rules. However, the rules are the rules. If the party completely ignored its own rules and just annointed the clintons, I could see a valid action by obama. However, the flip just doesn't hold water. In fact, there would be no valid complaint for obama if for some stupid reason the supers all went to clinton for the hell of it. It's the rules. The party would explode, but there still would not be a valid court claim.
Again, an inter-party nomination fight is not like Florida 2000, which was a general election dispute. It's apples and oranges.
May 28, 2008 5:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't agree with this, Furstenburg. I don't think the party will let it come to that and I'll tell you how they will keep her from doing that -
The Democrats control her career in the senate and she still has time there.
The second reason I don't think so is because of money. Right now there is a big court case on hold in L.A. against Bill. As soon as this primary is over, he's in court - which may be another reason they keep fighting. They may have more than one problem that they're running from that they'd like to get that WH shield between them and the rest of the world. LOL!
So they've maxxed out her donors now and lent her campaign their own money and they still have a trial in L.A. to pay for, plus her campaign owes money. All over.
May 28, 2008 4:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
However, couple of thoughts:
1. The party should have stopped the clintons months ago and the party didn't. The clintons political strategy has always been win at all costs and pick up the pieces later. I really don't think that she cares about her senate career right now. She is way, way down on the seniority ladder in any event.
2. Mr. bill has to explain to all those donors that gave hundreds of millions of dollars to his "foundations" that they won't be getting any political favors in return. I am sure that they didn't give all that money out of the kindness of their hearts. I am sure mr. bill assured the donors that the clintons will be back in the white house and that they will receive all kinds of favors. I bet those conference calls will be very interesting when this is finally over.
3. They have pumped a ton of money into their campaign already, what's a couple of million more whining all the way to the convention. They'll just keep playing the media and whipping their supporters into a frenzy over their conspiracy theories and alleged victimization.
Just a couple of thoughts, but I bet at a minimum the clintons won't give up until the convention. They will go down in a blaze of glory.
May 28, 2008 4:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
yes..indeed Mr. Bill will have to follow Carter around the globe and make some new friends in CHina and Russia..As long as the dollar remains weak abroad, Bill could make some good dough in the east...especially selling his buddy Al's carbon credits on the black market.
May 28, 2008 5:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
good points HTX: She should have take Senate Majority role...then McLame wins and Obama fades from the scene by 2012...but money and power moves fast from the loser to the winner. If there's a skosh of a chance she can pull this off, she'll reclaim a fresh budget. That Clinton family is used to living near the sh*thouse...when have they not had legal/money problems?
May 28, 2008 5:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
What exactly what would the Obama supporters be protesting against? Representing every voter at the convention?
I can just see Obama supporters with big signs that say "DOWN WITH DEMOCRACY" and "DISENFRANCHISE THE VOTERS OF FLORIDA AND MICHIGAN." That's certainly their position, but it's obvious why they don't want to advertise it.
Instead, they'll work behind the scenes to disenfranchise millions of voters. Always remember what Stalin said: 'It's Not the People Who Vote that Count; It's the People Who Count the Votes' That's Obama's motto too.
May 28, 2008 6:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
I see it more like the clintons saying lets disenfranchise the other 48 states that followed the rules. Oh, yeah and let's disenfranchise all those people that came out in caucuses and voted and let's disenfranchise all the people that voted for "my opponent." The clintons position is so much more in line with stalin than obama's position. Stop whining.
May 28, 2008 7:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're InSaNe. Nobody's nullifying the votes of the people in the other 48 states by counting the votes in Florida and Michigan. And it has absolutely nothing to do with who followed the rules. If they had voted for Obama, you would be screaming for them to be included. So cut the crap because the ONLY rule they broke that you care about is the rule that says you must vote for Obama if you want your vote to count.
May 28, 2008 8:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Huh? I would go through an explaination why "enfranchising" michigan and florida would completely screw every state that followed the rules and overturned the will of all the people that complied with party rules; however, I am sure that it would fall on deaf monkey ears. Keep whining. Maybe we should just get rid of all the votes and cooronate her queen. Would that work for you?
May 28, 2008 9:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
The only reason you don't "go through an explanation" is because it's a crazy idea and you have none. And you're the one turning the nomination into a coronation by not counting all the votes.
May 28, 2008 10:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
What I can't figure out is why the Rules & Bylaws Committee is meeting four days before the end of the primaries, when Obama would have undoubtedly had this wrapped up at the number of delegates they were given all along. So, now they are going to increase the number right before the end? That seems very wrong!
May 28, 2008 7:55 PM | Reply | Permalink