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McCain: "I Have Met Some Very Bad People Before In My Life"
It seems safe to predict that John McCain will soon be bringing up his torture experiences every single day.
Fhat for the past two days running now, McCain has gone out of his way to make apparent references to his POW past. From his statement attacking Obama today:
I have news for Senator Obama: I have met some very bad people before in my life.
From a McCain campaign spokesperson yesterday, responding to criticism from Bill Richardson:
John McCain has not only talked tough but been tough in encounters with more bad guys than Bill Richardson will ever meet.
Stay tuned for tomorrow's version.
To be clear, there's nothing wrong with McCain talking about his bio as much as he wants. But as Atrios notes, pundits continue to claim that he's uncomfortable bringing up his Vietnam experiences in political contexts.
That's a message that McCain obviously wants to promulgate -- and so the above references to his POW status are veiled ones
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Comments (55)
We acknowledge that he's met bad guys like his torturers, but they ARE NOT government or national leaders. That's the difference here. And it's a very simplistic argument that he's making.
"I know bad guys. I was tortured by them. Thus I will not reach out to them."
However, the United States did reach out to his Vietnamese torturers, which allowed McCain to be released from Hanoi Jail.
May 21, 2008 3:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
It does bear mentioning that McCain's captors had all the physical power. They repeatedly used force to make him capitulate. Even though McCain,as he himself admits, reached a breaking point, he did resist as much as anyone reasonably can under such circumstances. I don't think we ever should or should want to question that.
But force, even extreme force, did not make him capitulate (i.e agree to early release, for example) because he had a sense of duty and honor.
Fast forward.
The U.S. has all the power in this situation, especially vis-a-vis small relatively weak countries like Iran, Venezuela, Cuba. We can and do punish the countries, we consider rogues. We threaten them, occasionally with violence. Their sense of honor, makes them resist humiliation at our hands. Yes these countries' leaders have a sense of honor (even if they are far from honorable, or good, or whatever). Our treatment makes them more likely to resist, not capitulate.
Once you show them a modicum of respect, that defense is not nearly so potent. Forget negotations. Ask the interrogators.
If McCain can't see this then he would be a dangerous president indeed.
May 21, 2008 4:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well framed and well said.
May 21, 2008 5:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
If the United States hadn't engaged in diplomatic talks with Vietnam, McCain would never have been released from prison.
May 21, 2008 3:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
that's a good one. worth repeating, I think.
May 21, 2008 3:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks, Greg. Also, Arlen Spector undercut McCain's message today according to Ben Smith at Politico:
May 21, 2008 3:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
As the Atrios reference suggests, don't expect this to come up in the MSM. They all begin speaking in hushed, reverent tones whenever John McCain's imprisonment and torture come up.
No matter how much McCain demagogues his Vietnam experiences, the media's going to give him a pass. My only hope is that he starts referring to it as often as Giulani did 9/11, and he becomes a parody of the strong, suffering hero.
May 21, 2008 4:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
This cannot be brought up by the Obama campaign. The McCain will jump all over the Obama campaign for trying to "exploit" the hero's time in Vietnam.
This has to be brought up a prominent Dem. But not the Obama campaign.
May 21, 2008 3:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
They'll jump all over him too as well, and call him an Obama surrogate.
If the Obama campaign has any ties to Hagel, they should ask him to rebut this charge.
May 21, 2008 3:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hagel would be the perfect person to point out that were it not for negotiations, McCain might not have been released. Perfect.
May 21, 2008 3:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Try Dan Inouye as a foil to McCain
May 21, 2008 4:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hagel has already said publicly, yesterday, that Obama's approach to talking with our enemies is necessary and correct and that McCain is wrong on this one. He did not , nor do I expect him to invoke the conditions of McCain's release to make his point, however.
So Hagel and Jim Baker and Colin Powell seem to be on board. There are plenty of other reputable retired military folks who are going to step up and argue for Obama's side as well.
May 21, 2008 4:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
I heard McSame once leg wrestled Fred Flintstone and that old Fred was a cheater and that, "Yabba Dabba Do," is actually caveman for, "Death to America!"
May 21, 2008 3:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes. This is the state of punditry. Despite ample evidence to the contrary, pundits proclaim McCain a "maverick".
They'll proclaim him reluctant to talk about his Vietnam experiences, and then rush on to a pseudopsychological analysis of what that "reluctance" means, while McCain keeps bringing up his Vietnam experience to gain political points.
Black is White. Up is down.
May 21, 2008 3:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
As Bob Somerby at the Daily Howler is fond of saying, McCain is very reluctant to talk about his POW experiences. In fact, he mentions how reluctant he is to talk about his POW experiences almost every time he opens his mouth.
May 21, 2008 6:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
McLame has opened the door wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide -
Someone step up right this instant and hit him with his torture vote and keep doing it over and over with pictures until this damned dense public gets it - he's a war criminal. They are all war criminals.
May 21, 2008 3:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Good point about the torture vote.
"Another example of why John McCain is wrong is that he talks about being tortured as an U.S. soldier, and said that torture was flat-out wrong. Then this spring, he voted against the ban on torture. This just beggars belief, y'know? In this country, torture is NOT acceptable, and as President I will not stand for it, and I will work to prevent any U.S. soldiers from being captured and held for torture because I will uphold the Geneva Convention unlike John McCain and George W. Bush."
May 21, 2008 3:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Exactly. It's just absolute proof that the man has no morals and no character.
But more than that, this whole torture thing matters to me so much - I can't even talk about how devastated I am and I'm further upset because so few people other than me seem to be upset.
Jesus god - I can start crying right now talking about it. I never expected my country to do these things - I grew up in a time when this country bragged endlessly about how it never did these things.
I am just crushed and I hate the fascists so much and I hate McCain and everyone involved - I want them tried. They should be. It's the right thing to do - it's what we did to the fascists in Europe because it was right.
May 21, 2008 3:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
I totally agree with you, Tena.
It's bad enough thinking about our government doing these things, but then it's even more upsetting that so few people are actually outraged about it. I always thought that we as a country were better than that - that we would always take the high road. How can we teach our children about how awful other countries can be when we seem to be mirroring their behavior? I'll never forgive Bush/Cheney for taking that away from all of us.
May 21, 2008 4:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Me neither.
And I'm going to fight with everything I can to see that they don't just get away with it.
I really think I have the right to file a grievance against Alberto Gonzales with the State Bar of Texas, and I'm thinking about starting something. I'd like to see them get thousands, if not millions, of complaints, until he's disbarred, at least in this state.
May 21, 2008 4:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree as well. The "experience" thing is completely overblown. Now judgement..that is what we really need.
It goes beyond rhetoric though, Obama wrote an article in Foreign Affairs magazine back in July that has lots of meat to it and definintely is the way we can regain our vision of what America is all about.
Check it out:
http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20070701faessay86401/barack-obama/renewing-american-leadership.html
May 21, 2008 4:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Is this an Obama quote?
May 21, 2008 4:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
No, it's not. I came up with it myself.
May 21, 2008 4:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is not about being tough. Hell we've been tough with Cuba for the past 50 plus years. Where has that gotten us? The fact the McCain has to invoke his POW status so early is a sign of weakness. Obama should find a way to say it without saying it.
This is about being effective.
May 21, 2008 3:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
I wonder if McSame includes Charles Keating as one of these "very bad people?"
May 21, 2008 3:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
So are we revisiting BCCCI? Cause I was always rather confused by that whole thing, which I think was part of the plan. lol
May 21, 2008 4:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Another thing that annoys me about this talk about Iran was that Carter was the one who approved two rescue missions for the hostages.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Eagle_Claw
May 21, 2008 4:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
On second thought, I think it's better to keep attacking McCain as being naive, and keep on pointing out how Reagan, Kennedy, Nixon, and other Presidents engaged in diplomacy. It would be great to bring up George Washington as an example of engaging in diplomatic talks with hostile nations (i.e. England).
May 21, 2008 4:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm hard-pressed to think of a president that didn't negotiate with hostile countries. McCain acts like every diplomatic dispute we've ever had has been solved by the President slapping a foreign leader with a newspaper.
May 21, 2008 4:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well Dubya says he doesn't, but he does.
May 21, 2008 4:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think invoking former Presidents engaging in diplomatic talks with hostile nations is a great strategic tack, and there's nothing more American than George Washington, the first President of the USA. I'm googling for instances of diplomatic relations with Britain.
May 21, 2008 4:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm wondering what's worse for our national security: talking to Raul Castro? Or selling our debt to the Chinese?
May 21, 2008 4:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
O very nice indeed!
God I hope someone from Obama's camp reads this stuff. That is an excellent rejoinder.
May 21, 2008 4:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks!
May 21, 2008 4:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Ever try to negotiate with your banker." Obama uses than line about China already.
Not sure where McCain think China fits on Cub-a-meter of respect for political, press and religious freedom.
May 21, 2008 4:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
At least they are debating talking to Iran instead of bombing Iran.
For now.
May 21, 2008 4:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Charlie Black has also met some very bad people in his life.
And he's made a fortune from them!
May 21, 2008 4:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
So McCain is tough with the bad guys, eh?
I wonder if the daughter that BushCo smeared would care to offer a rebuttal here.
May 21, 2008 4:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
McCain wakes up each morning and looks in in te mirror as he combs the remaining wisps of his hair . . .
OF COURSE, he has met bad people.
May 21, 2008 4:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Look it's McCain primary mindset that military might is the most important weapon in our projection of power. That's more a result of the chip on his shoulder (no pun intended) than the fact that he was a career military guy. And yet we now know in this extremely complex world that military power can not solve so many of our problems.
May 21, 2008 5:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
A serious question for everyone to research:
What bad folks has McCain actually met on the world stage? Is this reference only to his torturers (who were undoubtedly evil and sadistic) or does he have actual experience negotiating (or refusing to negotiate with the kinds of folks that Richardson, and Specter (as well as many others) have met with?
I think this is a rather important thing to know.
May 21, 2008 5:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
What the hell does this even mean?
I have met Chinese people- does that mean I can speak or understand Chinese?? (I have a tin-ear for languages so- no I can't)
What the heck is it about these guys that they need to act like Rambo? I want a leader with backbone who won't be a wuss but I don't want someone who's only solution is macho posturing.
Besides, I would have to say that that there are very few black people in this country that are unfamiliar with hate.
May 21, 2008 5:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
I also don't understand why McCain's military past makes him qualified to be President.
a) There is more to being Predident than just being CIC
b) McCain was a soldier in the army. He did not create military strategy, he did not command troops.
His service is certainly to be admired and it says something about his fortitude to survive what he did but it doesn't make him qualified to be President nor does it give him foreign policy cred. There are other things that might but this in and of itself does not.
I just hope that Guiliani's 9-11 tourettes isn't contagious in the form of Vietnam/POW tourettes.
May 21, 2008 5:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
It doesn't. But it gives him instant cover on some foreign policy issues, especially related to the military.
You have to bear in mind the mean intelligence of the electorate. Some folks saw it as a feather in Bush's cap that he was president when 9/11 happened.
May 21, 2008 10:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
He was an officer. He did command other pilots.
May 21, 2008 10:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Um, Greg, while I know this is a kind of late request, it's usually a good idea to at least link to what a person is rebuffing, so could you please at least provide a link to Richardson's remarks?
May 21, 2008 5:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hey McBush...what are you gonna do when you look in the mirror and meet one real bad person???
May 21, 2008 6:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
From what I've read about St. John the Maverick he did behave well when he was a POW. However, it seems to be the only time in his life that he behaved honorably.
And let's not forget that he was a POW because his airplane was shot down. Prior to that he was dropping bombs on the innocent and the guilty alike.
May 21, 2008 6:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Songbird
May 21, 2008 6:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Appeasement NOW B4 It's Too Late
O! Detter hurry before McBush runs the USA! USA! out of things to appease with!
The Incredible Shrinking Superpower (Time)
Worried about the high cost of filling up? President Bush is on the case. Last Friday he arrived in Riyadh to urge King Abdullah, the leader of the world's largest petroleum producer, Saudi Arabia, to put more oil on the market.
At the sun-bleached airport, Bush was greeted with the Gulf's signature mix of garish oil wealth and tinpot amateurism. A large retinue of royalty watched as a band played an off-key version of the U.S. national anthem. Bush walked through the cavernous air terminal to his motorcade and drove to the monarch's "farm" at al Janadriyah. Through the enormous gates and along alleys of dying shrubs and trees fed by miles of futile drip hoses, he made his way to the King's "villa," a marble-clad, poured concrete palace. Through a foyer with a statue of a cheetah felling an antelope and anterooms full of attendants, Bush strolled deep into Abdullah's inner sanctum, past the portly King's private exercise pool, his Stair-Master and his "Vibromass" anti-cellulite belt-massager, to his personal study, where a console of 24 small TVs filled one wall and two overstuffed chairs coddled the leaders.
It was there, after much pomp and circumstance, that Bush made his request. And it was there that the King still said no.
May 21, 2008 7:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Is McCain saying Henry Kissinger should not have met with Le Duc Tho in Paris? I don't get it.
May 21, 2008 7:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
No, what McCain is doing is pandering to two very important groups in Florida (where presidential elections are oft decided). These groups are the elderly Jewish voters, worried about Iran and the Cuban exile community, obsessed about Castro. If Obama doesn't pander too, he'll lose the state in November.
May 22, 2008 3:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, McCain knows bad people- Hagee who said Hitler was sent by God so that Jews would move to Israel - where they will be wiped off the face of the earth. Of course no one seems to care about this but Rev Wright is a big deal. I guess it only matters when it is a scary black man.
May 21, 2008 9:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
George Armsrtong Custer McCain refused to talk to Sitting Bull.
May 22, 2008 6:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
Actually Sitting Bull didn't go to the Little Big Horn to talk.
May 22, 2008 12:24 PM | Reply | Permalink