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Hillary Campaign Says No To New Michigan Delegate Proposal
Camp Hillary is rejecting the new plan floated today by Michigan Dems that would seat the delegation by awarding 69 delegates to Hillary and 59 to Obama.
Hillary spokesperson Isaac Baker emails over this:
"This proposal does not honor the 600,000 votes that were cast in Michigan's January primary. Those votes must be counted."
This is hardly surprising, since the proposal gives Hillary a 10 delegate margin -- a significant cut from the 18-delegate margin of victory she enjoyed over "uncommitted" (Obama wasn't on the ballot) in the Michigan primary.
Late Update: A good post from Chris Bowers on the Michigan proposal's larger implications for the race overall.
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She shouldn't get anything reall out of MI, it should be split evenly 50/50. The fact that they are wiling to give her a 10 more is insane to me. It already stinks of unfairness. HIS NAME WAS NOT ON BALLOT. THIS IS TOTALLY UNFAIR BULLSHIT.
May 8, 2008 2:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
"This proposal does not honor the 600,000 votes that were cast in Michigan's January primary. Those votes must be counted."
It's this high and mighty protector of the people's vote b.s. that makes me despise Clinton. They're not protecting any votes because it was an illegitimate election! They're not speaking about the people that were disenfranchised because they were basically told their vote would not count and decided to stay away from the polls, they're trying to hold up an election where their opponent was not even on the ballot!
She and her camp of people trying to push this as a real election are disgusting.
May 8, 2008 2:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think you underestimate how disgusting they are.
PS - Spider Jerusalem Rocks!
May 8, 2008 2:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Haha, thanks. You're the first one to recognize him to me here.
May 8, 2008 2:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Before every election season I reread all of Transmetropolitan.
I like to keep my Journalistic Meat Gun loaded at all times!
May 8, 2008 2:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Mitt Romney really reminds me of the Smiler.
May 8, 2008 3:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
On the Republican side yeah, on the Dem side, for me, it was John Edwards.
May 8, 2008 3:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Meanwhile ideals like Party RULES get packed up as the Hillary mad machine tries to circumvent the very rules that have held up the DEM party since inception.Hillary's Repug winner takes all wish says everything about how this shrewd witch despises the rules of the Democratic party, not to mention her obvious loathe for its success. Otherwise how do you explain how Hillary has sunk into a situation where its either HER or GODDAMN the Democratic Party. Me me me me me me me...!
Sad!
Pathetic!
May 9, 2008 10:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
I hope that my fellow Obama supporters who are expressing a desire to see MI punished are prepared to be disappointed. I feel fairly confident in saying that MI and FL will be seated according to their January votes. Once the supers come off the bench in a few weeks, Obama is going to have the requisite support needed to seat them as they stand without affecting the outcome. At that point he will happily do so in order to put this issue to rest and afford himself a few happy days of favorable press ink as democratic big wigs in those states pose for smiling feel good photo ops in return for his saving their bacon (if MI is not seated in Denver Gov Granholm can start drawing up her resignation speach now because she will be run back to Canada on a rail). These two states are not going to be left out in the cold.
May 8, 2008 2:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
As I've said earlier, having their results unimplemented until they lose relevance seems like a fitting punishment enough for their attempt to jump the gun and give themselves disproportionate influence on the nomination process.
May 8, 2008 2:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Right on. Perfect solution. Obama wraps it up with Superdels and then MI and FL can be seated according to "Hillary Rules".
May 8, 2008 2:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
I disagree about Michigan. Florida, sure, seat them, it won't make a difference. But Obama's name wasn't even on the MI ballot, no way they seat them as is.
May 8, 2008 2:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Agreed. For some crazy reason they might be able to pull their shit in FL because his name was on the ballot even though people were STILL told that their vote would basically note count. But to try to pull that in MI would mean serious political ramifications.
May 8, 2008 2:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
So you are saying that if Obama agrees, as a magnanimous gesture, to seat the delegates according to the (admittedly bogus) January vote, there will blow back against Obama? Why? I am not quite following you here. Are you so mad at Gov Granholm's cock-up that you would take it out on Obama for not insisting that she be punished?
May 8, 2008 3:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Even though I think you are generally way too nice about Hillary's campaign tactics, i agree with you herw, Greg.
I wan't everybody to be happy by the time November rolls around (except Hillary and anyone intending to vote for Mccain). As long as the delegates in question can't swing the nomination Hillary's way, and won't cause mischief at the convention making Obama look weak, seat them. Hell, seat them all as full delegates if they agree to the foregoing.
May 8, 2008 5:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree that we have to be worried that if she edges up in delegate numbers via Florida and Michigan, that she will then try to flip some pledged and superdelegates. There was concern that her campaign was trying to get what I call "ringers" selected as Obama delegates when we picked delegates to the convention for Obama. In our district, we selected true Obama supporters. But if she was pulling that stunt all over the country, she could position herself to subvert the people's choice-Obama. She and her people could work on this all summer long. They could undermine Obama and distract him from the general election. I think Hillary and her people have to be treated like snakes, poisonous ones. You cannot trust that she is not going to "take it to the convention", employ "the nuclear option". No. Do not trust her. Ridiculous! to seat the Michigan delegates and supers as though it were a fair election. She doesn't care about fair, and Obama better be wary!
May 8, 2008 7:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
p.s. According to Maureen Down in yesterday's NYTimes:
Fox News reports that the Clintons are planning a summer campaign with TV appearances, fliers and rallies, between the end of the primary and the convention, to drag back superdelegates trying to flock to Obama.
(I am sorry that I am not that competent with the computer, the above note about Fox is copied from yesterday's paper.)
I can no reason to quibble over eight delegates unless you are planning to stay in the fight. I think we Obama supporters are foolish to think that she's going to go away.
May 8, 2008 7:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
sorry. Maureen Dowd, not Maureen Down.
May 8, 2008 7:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Against Obama?
Hmm, I wasn't thinking of that as much, more I was thinking of backlash against Clinton and the democratic party from Obama supporters who saw her as stealing the delegate representation and the DNC allowing it.
May 8, 2008 5:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Against Obama?
Hmm, I wasn't thinking of that as much, more I was thinking of backlash against Clinton and the democratic party from Obama supporters who saw her as stealing the delegate representation and the DNC allowing it.
May 8, 2008 5:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am sorry that the Party will have to back down on its stand on Florida and Michigan, it makes Dean seem a waffler, but I think it's going to be, and I agree that Obama will do the right thing if he lets the delegations be seated. I do not, however, think Hillary Clinton should take all of Michigan's votes, both those for her and those that were cast for "uncommitted," which is her current strategy. You probably know about the machinations in this regard already, Greg, but if you don't, here is a link to Susan Demas' 4/24 piece from the Detroit News site.
May 10, 2008 2:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oops. I'm a jerk/ Here's the link to the Detroit News piece about Clinton and her potential takeover of Michigan's uncommmitted votes:
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080424/OPINION01/804240315/1008
May 10, 2008 2:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Of course both MI and FL will be seated under just the scenario you suggest. But the DNC will have made their point. If they had buckled, then the next cycle would see primaries on Halloween. They seriously need to get control of this system.
May 8, 2008 2:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm mostly with you, and if it comes to this, so be it.
My problem is that once they seat 'em, then what punishment was dealt these rogue states?
Will our next primary season be even more ridiculous as more states move their primaries to position themselves at the beginning? I care less about the delegates at this point, than about party rule.
May 8, 2008 2:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
part of the michigan rational for going early was to bring campaign money to the state. It never came, and the state could use it. That is punishment.
May 8, 2008 2:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, realistically, if they're not seated until after the nomination is clinched, then that's their punishment -- they didn't really have a part in making the decision.
This was obviously the underlying desire of the DNC all along and why it's gone this far -- if the other states could decide things by themselves, then they could just seat the irrelevant MI/FL with lesson learned.
May 8, 2008 2:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Did you predict this weeks ago.
Becasue I did and I don't recall a single Obama supporter agreeing. Did you? If so, my mistake. If not, nice way to change your tune.
May 8, 2008 2:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wow, you were right about something. Bravo. You were also right to not take my bet on NC and IN, you would've had your ass handed to you, kinda like Hillary had hers delivered with a bow on it by Obama.
May 8, 2008 2:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Your prediction was based on the patently false assumption that Obama needs delegates from FL and MI to reach 2025.
May 8, 2008 2:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
If Fla and Michigan are seated, the number isn't 2025.
May 8, 2008 3:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
My thoughts exactly. Peas in a pod, lately, eh?
This is a nothing story. Journalists are have trouble pivoting back to other stories on different subjects. Of course, TPM-EC's job is to focus on the election, so, well, here's the news.
Michigan and Florida will be seated. In fact, I suspect they'll be seated as the vote came in. No problem. The punishment for both delegations will be (looked back in history) as being irrelevant to the contest as it was occurring.
In effect, Michigan and Florida's decisions to move their primary up will have resulted in moving their primary back at the end of the season, after the decision had already been made. Fun, eh? Seems like a fitting punishment to me.
May 8, 2008 2:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Needless to say, neither Obama nor myself has it in our power to effect this punishment, but I would like to see the punishment be that both MI's and FL's supers be stripped of their vote at the convention. They are the ones who caused the problem, so they should be the ones to bear the penalty. I dare say that this would be a much more effective deterrant than halving the pledged delegations, or suchlike. Making Gov Granholm and Sen Levin each wear a dunce cap will teach them not to play chicken with Howard Dean.
May 8, 2008 3:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Now that's a damn good idea.
May 8, 2008 3:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
But she REJECTED a more-than-reasonable proposal, which exposes her for the greedy fraud that she is.
I've been saying for months that public proposals, giving her some edge, should be made. She will look ridiculous if she rejects them. And she has rejected it. And she looks craven and ridiculous.
Good.
In fact, now maybe we can throw out the entire fiasco. An offer was made, Obama made noises that he was willing to accept it, she would not. Now what do you think the credentials committee is going to do with that?
She's can't play fair. She won't play at all unless she's the winner all the time in all things.
She's unfit to be president.
Where are the God damned supers?!?
May 8, 2008 2:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Seems like her strategy is really to have the chance for the nuclear option. So any compromise destroys that strategy. And yes, it proves how craven she really is!
May 8, 2008 3:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hmm....
Breaking News...
http://twitter.com/BreakingNewsOn
May 8, 2008 2:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
what a tease that is!
May 8, 2008 2:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
There's a fucking surprise. She's not interested in reaching an equitable agreement. She's interested in keeping this issue alive so she can continue to bitch about it.
May 8, 2008 2:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
You hit the nail on the head Hunter.
Obama needs to pick up this mantle and expose Clinton for the fraud that she is. He should demand that MI and FL be seated with whatever sanction the DNC feels necessary so that we don't go through this again in 2012.
As a MI Obama supporter, I don't feel there is any vote to "honor". My candidate wasn't even on the ballot and I stayed home that day to protest that fact. I saw then that the uncommitted vote was BS because the uncommitted delegate could turn right around and vote for Clinton.
I do seriously hope that Obama's campaign puts this issue to bed and quickly so that Clinton can stop using it as an excuse to stay in the race.
May 8, 2008 2:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
There's still time to schedule a caucus for say, June. Obama could afford to pony up the couple million neccisary to hold a caucus in Michigan.
Caucus in Michigan for June 3!
May 8, 2008 2:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
But...but...but...Caucuses are undemocratic and unfair to Hillary!
The only acceptable solution to the MI and FL delegate situation for Clinton would be if 100% of those delegates went to her. Even the ones Obama would receive from Florida.
May 8, 2008 2:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Actually MI has a long history of caucuses and this was suggested many months ago.
Hillary shot it down.
May 8, 2008 2:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree! She should be happy with a 50/50 split since MI went against the rules.
May 8, 2008 2:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Whatever. If you ignore her, she'll go away.
May 8, 2008 2:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama's team needs to get on this. He can stay above the fray---but his surrogates need to get out and talk about how she turned down an offer to seat these delegates.
The need to blanket the airwaves with this.
May 8, 2008 2:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Agreed.
She and her surrogates did just that, but they did it with MISinformation and lies. They were peddling the talking point that Sen Obama didn't want a revote.
May 8, 2008 2:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is not at all surprising. Depressing, but not surprising.
May 8, 2008 2:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Can you blame her? Obama wants all the "uncommitted" votes which include votes for Edwards, if I'm not mistaken. Plus he wants some of Hillary's votes. Hillary hasn't contested that he get all the uncommitted votes, but she wants to keep all of hers. ("Can you blame her" was a rhetorical question, as I'm sure some could.)
May 8, 2008 2:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Actually, what ended up happening in Michigan was that when the district conventions were held, Clinton supporters ended up taking up a bunch of the uncommitted delegates. Just because she was on the ballot doesn't mean that some of those delegates couldn't have gone for her, but that's a common misconception. So basically what would end up happening is that she would get the 50 some percent of delegates from the illegitimate election plus a good number from the uncommitted delegates margin from that same illegitimate election.
Not even cool for one second.
May 8, 2008 2:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, some of the uncommitted voters were also Edwards supporters, but some Clinton voters would have voted for Obama or Edwards if they were on the ballot. The CNN exit poll showed Clinton beating Obama 46-35 if all candidates had been on the ballot. In other words, 16% of Clinton's voters (9% of the total vote, of which her share was 55%) would have voted for Edwards or Obama if they could have. When you consider this factor in addition to your point about uncommitted voters, Obama actually does a net 4% better against Clinton (losing by 11) than "uncommitted" did against Clinton (losing 55-40). In addition, although some Clinton supporters might not have voted knowing the primary didn't count, it is more likely that Obama and Edwards supporters stayed home or voted in the GOP primary because they couldn't vote for their candidate. So in all likelihood, Obama would have done better relative to Clinton than the exit polls suggest. Basically, there is no fair way to base delegate allocations on the election results.
At any rate, it is false to say that "Obama wants all the uncommitted votes." They are open to a compromise based on giving Michigan token representation in the absence any legitimate way of determining the will of the voters, not based on assuming all the uncommitted votes were for him. Originally they were looking for a 50-50 split, although they may be open to giving Clinton a small advantage now that she can't catch him anyway. As far as I know, the Obama campaign has not suggested he should just be credited with the uncommitted vote. Their position is that the original primary was illegitimate and should not be considered at all.
I agree that I don't blame her for rejecting it though. She benefits more from the confusion about the state of the race brought about by saying Florida and Michigan haven't been counted than she does by making a small dent in Obama's lead while eliminating that confusion.
May 8, 2008 3:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh yes indeed, ottof, she is contesting the uncommitted votes. Please have a look: http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080424/OPINION01/804240315/1008
May 10, 2008 2:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Just count the votes .
What are you scared of now?
Well, you should be scared of Obama joining the long list of losers the Dems have run.
Think about it, he has done nothing in Senate but you are running him solely on his words.
It boggles the mind.
May 8, 2008 2:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Losers the dems have run."
Hillary lost, get over it. Quit whining you insufferable little troll twit.
May 8, 2008 2:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ok. You can have all the delegates. After June 7th. Sound like a deal? I hope so, because that's what is going to happen. This is a kerfuffle that now has no basis in reality. I'll even let you go ahead and complain about the unfairness all you want. I'll even concede that the delegates not apportioned to Hillary are instead apportioned to "Uncommitted."
Same goes in Florida.
The only thing I have on the table, that cannot be removed, is that the decision to seat the delegations will not be made until June 7th.
And that is exactly what is going on now. Cheers!
May 8, 2008 2:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, and finally, that decision to seat the delegations after June 7th will be to seat them. i guarantee they will be seated. Deal?
May 8, 2008 2:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
I completley agree with gotalife - thanks for serving the truth straight up.
I think Gotalife would agree with me that it is totally Obama's fault for not putting himself on the ballot. Rules are meant to be broken.
Look at everything HRC (Hillary Rodham Clinton) has done! I don't even have to list them because there are so many (maybe Gotalife can help me out on the assist here)
Enough of the cool aid!
May 8, 2008 2:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hillary's big accomplishments in the senate are limited to naming a few federal buildings.
Big whoopdedoo!
May 8, 2008 2:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
You know, gotalifefan, you do more to expose the paucity of gotalife's arguments than any of the arguments specifically directed against her. And that's what you mean to do, isn't it? You're sending her up.
May 10, 2008 2:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Count the votes? Which ones?
It's amazing how her campaign is shouting "count the votes!" and "we can't disenfranchise the voters";
yet they have no problem pushing for super delegates to OVERTHROW the will (votes) of the people.
The DNC, the super delegates, AND the pundits need to call her out on this hypocrisy.
What an insult even to the uneducated older white women over 50 making under 50.
May 8, 2008 2:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
His legislative record is more substantial than Hillary's, unless you count naming post offices. She's got plenty of those!
Not that I expect you to read this, but boom!
"There is not one single example of any legislation with her name appended to it. In fact, the page devoted to her Senate biography is a mush-mash, a laundry list of good intentions. When she talks about "sponsoring" and "introducing" and "fighting for" legislation that obviously hasn't passed, that's a smokescreen for failure. By introducing all that legislation that never makes it out of committee, she's guilty of what she accuses Senator Obama of: confusing "hoping" with doing.
Consider these examples:
• "...{she} worked with her colleagues to secure the funds New York needed to recover and rebuild."
• "...she fought to provide compensation to the families of the victims."
• "She is an original sponsor of legislation that expanded health benefit to members of the National Guard and Reserves."
• "Some of Hillary' proudest achievements have been her work to ensure the safety of prescription drugs for children, with legislation now included in the Best Pharmaceuticals for Children Act." (What in God's name does that mumbo-jumbo mean?)
Yes, it's true that for many years, she was in the minority. But if she is the effective legislator she claims to be, she'd be able find co-sponsors across the aisle who share her commitment to specific issues, in the same way that John McCain found his doppelganger, Russ Feingold.
But an inability to get legislation passed is just the beginning of Senator Clinton's shallow record. For many of the bills she introduced, she couldn't even get a cosponsor in her own party!
Below are some perfectly fine, liberal, progressive bills that she introduced, but was unable to attract a cosponsor of any party, according to the Library of Congress.
Note that while her website proclaims that "She is an original sponsor of legislation that expanded health benefit to member of the National Guard and Reserves", she wasn't able to rustle up a single cosponsor for legislation that would have extended military retirement credit for National Guard Members called up after 9/11.
So Senator Clinton is right when she claims to be the experienced candidate, although it's not the experience she would like us to believe. It's a track record of legislative failure and futility.
89. S.4065 : A bill to direct the Attorney General to conduct a study on the feasibility of collecting crime data relating to the occurrence of school-related crime in elementary schools and secondary schools. Sponsor: Sen Clinton, Hillary Rodham [NY] (introduced 11/16/2006) Cosponsors (None)
88. S.4029 : A bill to increase the number of well-educated nurses, and for other purposes. Sponsor: Sen Clinton, Hillary Rodham [NY] (introduced 9/29/2006) Cosponsors (None)
90. S.4103 : A bill to prevent nuclear terrorism, and for other purposes. Sponsor: Sen Clinton, Hillary Rodham [NY] (introduced 12/7/2006) Cosponsors (None)
77. S.3909 : A bill to amend the foreign Assistance Act of 1961 to provide assistance for developing countries to promote quality basic education and to establish the achievement of universal basic education in all developing countries as an objective of United States foreign assistance policy, and for other purposes. Sponsor: Sen Clinton, Hillary Rodham [NY] (introduced 9/18/2006) Cosponsors (None)
59. S.2993 : A bill to amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to impose a temporary oil profit fee and to use the proceeds of the fee collected to provide a Strategic Energy Fund and expand certain energy tax incentives, and for other purposes. Sponsor: Sen Clinton, Hillary Rodham [NY] (introduced 5/23/2006) Cosponsors (None)
26. S.1144 : A bill to provide military retirement credit for certain service by National Guard members performed while in a State duty status immediately after the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. Sponsor: Sen Clinton, Hillary Rodham [NY] (introduced 5/26/2005) Cosponsors (None)
50. S.2260 : A bill to amend titles XVIII and XIX of the Social Security Act to make improvements to payments to Medicare Advantage plans and to reinstate protections in the Medicaid program for working families, their children, and the disabled against excessive out-of-pocket costs, inadequate benefits, and health care coverage loss. Sponsor: Sen Clinton, Hillary Rodham [NY] (introduced 2/8/2006) Cosponsors (None)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/adam-hanft/the-curious-myth-of-hilla_b_87613.html
May 8, 2008 2:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
But, but, Hillary helped name federal buildings, what could be more important than that?
Gotalife is an idiot, don't you dare respond to him with facts, you'll make him angry and he'll run off to his bedroom and pout.
I seriously think Gotalife is Cartman from South Park.
May 8, 2008 2:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Having Cashed the Check from the hard-worn soft-drink pitch he managed to score in the previous thread, Gotalife manages to find another walk-on role in his post Goodbye Cruel World phase - further degrading his talents to Close the Deal for a Board Game. This humble critic fears he'll soon end up in one of our TrollCritic 3000 Foundation PSAs if he cannot manage to respark the passion that made him a favorite of the TPM stage and put this heartbreaking period of self-loathing and Paris Britnification behind him once and for all.
Known Troll: +5
Contrarian Troll Modifier: +3
Contrarian Monolithic Ref. Modifier: +2
Intellectual Dishonesty: +20
Strawman/FUD Modifier: +5
Seeking Refuge in Scorn: +25
Bitter Modifier: +15
Artful Dodger Modifier: +15
Goodbye Cruel World Papers - Archival Fees: +15
Paris Britnification Treatments: -45
--------------------------------------------
Troll Rating: 60
May 8, 2008 3:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Gotalife;
I think you should go back and compare HRC's Senate Record with Obama’s. Then add in his stint as an Illinois Senator which counts because he was elected.
Then check JFK's brief career before he became what most Dems consider, along with FDR, the greatest President since Lincoln. Kennedy, btw, was 43 when he was elected.
Judgment and wisdom do not have a direct correlation with age or experience. I think HRC's supporters have lost sight of that reality in their fervor to support her.
May 8, 2008 5:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Some alleged minds are more easily boggled than others, gotalife...
Just sayin...
May 30, 2008 2:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
69-59 was fine by me. It's hardly "fair" but whatever to put this issue to rest.
May 8, 2008 2:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Two-faced hypocrite. Show me your past post where you ever suggested seating these delegates.
May 8, 2008 2:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
haha, how am I a hypocrite?
What have I said previously that contradicts with me supporting a 69-59 split?
May 8, 2008 2:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
You said they shouldn't be seated at all.
Hypocrite.
May 8, 2008 2:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
When did I say that?
Please provide a quote and a link?
May 8, 2008 2:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Can't search the archive that far back.
You deny it? Yes or no.
May 8, 2008 2:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
Aw, too bad.
Do I deny saying Michigan shouldn't be seated? As is, yes. Giving Hillary ~70 delegates and ~300,000 votes and Obama ZERO is beyond ridiculous.
I was never against some sort of compromise.
May 8, 2008 3:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
yes, you can.
every hear of this fancy new thing called google?
try searching for "fogu2 site:talkingpointsmemo.com"
May 8, 2008 3:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
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May 8, 2008 3:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Does this foundation do reverse transgenic procedures?
May 8, 2008 3:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
I happy to join the work of your foundation!
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May 8, 2008 4:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
So.. if she's rejected this then that goes back to the previous proposal, which is Michigan being seated not at all, right?
May 8, 2008 2:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
This gives her the rationale for taking it all the way to the convention floor.
May 8, 2008 2:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
And clearly that's what she's after! the rules committee and the floor!
May 8, 2008 3:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think it should be 50/50 too. I have friends/family that voted for HRC because she was a strong 2nd choice and at that time, they liked her. Now they wish they would've went uncommitted.
At this rate, she won't be able to run for governor...
May 8, 2008 2:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
or anything...
May 8, 2008 3:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Um, excuse me, but who fucking cares what Hillary agrees to or doesn't agree to? She is finished, she has been since February and even her advisors know it.
Let her squeel like a stuck piggy, this thing is over, it's time to move on to the General Election.
May 8, 2008 2:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Blatant, isn't she? So taking the names fff the ballot wasn't a dishonor to them? Telling voters before the election that it wouldn't count invalidated the election results.
This, plus the "hard-working Americans" comment is very unbecoming.
May 8, 2008 2:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Once again, this is classic Team Hillary. She should not have to wonder by she's getting trounced in the delegate world. She told everyone in October that she would honor the party rules. In January, she told everyone she would reject the party rules. She lies. That is what you get here. The Clinton people will say that Obama would do the same: I don't think so.
She is being offered an opportunity to seat the delegates. She is turning down the offer. She deserves what she gets.
May 8, 2008 2:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah really. Who the hell does she think she is? Just keep giving her different plans until she agrees to one, she is doing this so that she can get the nomination. So ofcourse she isn't going to be happy until she can be in a position to take/steal the nomination. OVER MY DEAD BODY.
May 8, 2008 2:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wow, they're going out in style, aren't they?
1) having to loan themselves $6 million
2) floating the "she's running for Barack's VP story."
3) intentionally or not deepening the race divide in the party with the USA Today comments suggesting blacks are not "hard working."
4) saying the "Nuclear Option" is on the table.
5) slapping down a reasonable Michigan compromise, and calling for "votes to be honored" from a ballot where her opponent didn't even appear.
It's gone from maddening, to pathetic.
Let the drama end! Please!
May 8, 2008 2:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
It reminds me of an event from long ago. All night long a fight went on across the street. Voices. Lots of thumps. And in the morning, strewn across the lawn were articles of clothing, pieces of furniture, whatnot!
These clintons cannot just leave. They must leave a mess behind them! And give everyone sleepless nights in the process!
May 8, 2008 3:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
The superdelegates are driving me f'ing nuts. She says no to a unifying plan proposed by MI Democratic leaders, so SD's should end it now.
May 8, 2008 2:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
she wants to up her pop vote to make a better "argument" cause she can't win with the way the rules are written right now.
May 8, 2008 2:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
She really ought to be punished with no delegates from either state for the racist comments she made today.
Hillary for President of the Aryan Nation!
May 8, 2008 2:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
I believe the Obama strategy all along has been to make proposals that were impossible for Clinton to accept, the goal being to delay the settlement of the Michigan and Florida issues until after Clinton was out of the race. But of course that can't be true because Obama does not participate in politics as usual. He's a new kind of politician.
May 8, 2008 2:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
These people think he can win the general by disenfranchising Florida and Michigan.
It gets more bizarre every day.
It boggles the mind.
May 8, 2008 2:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Totally agree Gotalife - I think I speak for both of us when I saw that Obama needs to start playing by the rules - just like Hillary.
May 8, 2008 2:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
I love your strategy!
Good for you! ♪♪♪
May 8, 2008 3:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
The Clinton campaign is rejecting Michigan's proposal to seat their delegates. Why does she want to disenfranchise Michigan?
May 8, 2008 2:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Once again, getalife, you don't want to disenfranchise Florida and Michigan voters, but no problem for the super dupers to overthrow the will (votes) of the people?
I have yet to hear a response explaining this dichotomy.
Don't worry about it. We get it.
Don't disenfranchise Hillary voters, but those who voted for Obama were either too young, too smart and educated, too black, not black enough, bla bla bla...., so THEY don't count, right?
May 8, 2008 3:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think Obama's plan was to win, and he did that.
Need I show you the video of Hillary saying MI and FL wouldn't count? She didn't seem at all concerned about it before Obama started kicking her ass all over this country, did she?
May 8, 2008 2:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Gotalife - this can't be true - help me out here.
May 8, 2008 2:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Do you understand that this is not Obama's proposal, but the Michigan party's exec committee's proposal?
May 8, 2008 3:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry Otto but sticking to the rules is not a "strategy". Refusing to give in to a ridiculous rule-breaking request is not underhanded or dishonorable in any way. Try again.
May 8, 2008 3:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hillary Clinton: Displaying the very characteristics that would have made her a horrible president. A refusal to compromise when the offer is more than fair considering it was an illegitimate election and none of the delegates should be seated.
Can you imagine how she would have dealt with congress had they dared to defy president clinton?
May 8, 2008 2:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
It was Dean and his ilk that made it illegitimate. They changed the rules not Clinton or the states.
May 8, 2008 2:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
The DNC with Dean and Brazile destroyed the party.
May 8, 2008 2:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Gotalife - nail on the head - well done.
The DNC needs to lay off these "rules" and think more about results - just like the GOP (Republicans).
May 8, 2008 2:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
Another bright light of reasn . . . NOT.
It's pretty simple - Under the DLC and Clinton, the Clintons did OK -- he was elected twice -- but the party as a whole did terribly -- they lost control of both houses, they lost a majority of gubenatorial positions, and state legislatures, and allowed the GOP to run over them in elections time after time (and to move the debate decidedly to the right). BY contrast, Howard Dean and Donna Brazile have done a phenomenal job (along with Chris Van Hoillen and others) in taking back both houses by emplying a 50-satate strategy that the Clintons and DLC have scoffed at, and actively opposed, but which has worked to put more democrats inthe congress, and more GOP seats at risk in 2008. It has been adopted and expanded by Obama at a grass roots level, and could well lead to a landslide both at the top of the ticket and at all levels below that (if the Clintons can resist the urge to destroy the party for the sake of Hilary's failed Presidential bid). One gets the sense that were it not for the enormous debt Bill owes Hilary over the Lewinsky blow job incident, he would have talked sense into her a long time ago and handled this more gracefully, with an eye toward the future and her plce in history. Now, he just stands there with a very pained look on his face, while the Clinton legacy continues to implode. So disappointing.
May 8, 2008 5:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
It was McAulliffe's plan for rejiggering the calendar, and Ickes voted for the sanctions as a member of the Rules Committee. And Hillary signed the pledge, back before she lost Iowa (and the nomination).
May 8, 2008 3:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
yeah. howard dean is the one who "forced" michigan and florida to move their primaries up...uh huh...keep telling yourself that.
May 8, 2008 3:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
States rights! Right Gotalife?
May 8, 2008 3:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
There were no rules against it at the time they decided they wanted to do it.
Dean and his ilk then changed the rules.
That simple.
May 8, 2008 3:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
you're wrong.
May 8, 2008 3:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
Exactly - I think Fogu would 100% agree with me that Hillary has never attempted to bend the rules.
May 8, 2008 3:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
May 8, 2008 3:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
In other words there were no rule against it at the time but they were caught by surprise and the only way they could enforce their arbitrary opinion was to...change the rules.
May 8, 2008 4:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
of course, the same reasons apply to why michigan was stripped of their delegates.
The rules are the rules and you can't break the rules without facing the consequences, or else you're no better than George W Bush.
May 8, 2008 3:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
The sanctions were not determined until the Rules Committee, including Harold Ickes, voted for them, but the scheduling rules were clearly in place well in advance. And the dispute went back to the last election.
Take a trip in the time machine back to 2004 and read this excerpt from Terry McAulliffe's book:
May 8, 2008 3:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
you know, I've been reading your comments and just have to post, even tho I am a charter member of the TrollCritic 3000 Foundation. You keep blaming Howard Dean and the Dnc for this idea to sanction the states of FL and MI. Well, Howard Dean had nothing to do with it. The RULES COMMITTEE voted to sanction them and the RULES COMMITTEE is made up of 25 members, 12 of whom are Hillary surrogates. They voted UNANIMOUSLY to sanction the states of FL and MI. Just think, hillary's surrogates on the Rules Committee (many who work on her campaign) voted to DISENFRANCHISE these voters (because she didn't think she would NEED them). So, you are in error in your pronouncements.
You need to educate yourself before you go off with a lot of silly talking points, thinking that everybody else is as lazy and uninformed as yourself. You can fix this problem by doing a little research and educating yourself on the issues. It really isn't hard to do, just takes a little effort, thereby saving yourself the embarrassment and everyone else the obligation to explain something to you for the 10th time. Oh, I see, that is the point, isn't it?
May 9, 2008 2:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
Damn dude,
You do know that Harold Ickes was on the committee that voted to strip Florida and Michigan right?
Tell me you have that minimal amount of grounding in facts.
Although in another way I'm impressed that you can still manage to post all the way from Planet Hillary. How long do transmissions take to reach Earth from where you are? Must be at least 3 minutes.
May 8, 2008 3:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Like playing Candy Land with a child... The rules that matter are the ones that allow her to win, not the ones that everyone agreed to at the beginning of the contest.
May 8, 2008 2:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
It was a coercve shakedown by Dean and his ilk.
That simple.
They agree to be seated as voted before May 20 or this is going to the convention.
May 8, 2008 2:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
You neglect the possibility (nay, the likelihood) that Obama will be so far ahead in delegates that it won't even matter if the MI and FL delegations are seated in full based on the unsanctioned primaries.
May 8, 2008 2:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
Then just seat them now.
What are y'all afraid of?
Obama is so confident he plans on declaring himself the winner on May 20.
What are y'all afraid of?
May 8, 2008 3:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
What they're afraid of is having states do whatever the hell they want in order to reek havoc on the primary schedule.
May 8, 2008 3:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
And certainly nobody involved with the Clinton's would ever do something like that?
McAuliffe recounted how he stared down Sen. Carl Levin's (D-MI) attempt to move up the Michigan primary during the 2004 cycle, and held firm on his threat to strip the state of delegates:
"You won't deny us seats at the convention," he said.
"Carl, take it to the bank," I said. "They will not get a credential. The closest they'll get to Boston will be watching it on television. I will not let you break this entire nominating process for one state. The rules are the rules. If you want to call my bluff, Carl, you go ahead and do it."
McAuliffe is currently a vocal advocate for seating Michigan's claimed delegates, and for counting the popular votes for Hillary Clinton in that state's primary, in which Barack Obama had taken his name off the ballot.
http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/04/clintonbacker_mcauliffe_threat_1.php
May 8, 2008 2:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Harold Ickes voted for those rules.
May 8, 2008 3:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
She needs to leave the race now. All she is doing is hurting the Democratic Party. Even if they split FL/MI down the middle she loses, so what the hell is she smoking, thinking she has a chance?
May 8, 2008 2:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
This has nothing to do with voters -- it's all about her WINNING.
This won't be decided till May 31st.
May 8, 2008 2:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
guaranteed? fer sher?
May 8, 2008 2:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Clinton's argument is about invalid votes, that she claims are her own. She does and likely will not accept any comprise that is not unduly favorable to her; the resolution is simple the DNC need accept whatever plan it deem valid and not unduly impacting one candidate over the other. END STORY!
She likely loose so many Super Delegates that it just won't matter. The Clintons are under the bottom....
May 8, 2008 2:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
The turnout in Michigan was tiny for one very good reason: There was no real election held there. Michigan's open primary, and every Democrat that I know voted in the Republican primary so that there vote would actually count. Go ahead and count it. It does not reflect the will of Michigan Democrats in any way, shape or form.
May 8, 2008 2:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Absolutely. Call her unfair, unreasonable, only interested in her own gain and not in healing the party.
This was a totally fair proposal. Many Obama supporters thought it was too much to give her, and that's the point: it was more than generous, and she rejected it.
Publicly.
Good.
May 8, 2008 2:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
I predicted weeks ago they would be seated as voted. The MI "uncommitted" delgates have been chosen and are virtually all declared Obama supporters.
FL and MI will be seated as voted and very soon or this WILL go to the convention.
May 8, 2008 2:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
What do you want, a latte?
May 8, 2008 2:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's for Obamic elitists.
Do you alos ask for Lo Fo?
May 8, 2008 2:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
What's "lo fo"?
Seriously, I have no idea. I just drink black coffee.
May 8, 2008 2:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Then you must really be a Clinton supported at heart.
Lo Fo = Low Foam
May 8, 2008 3:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
"low foam"
haha
May 8, 2008 3:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Or you're really an Obama supporter. How would you know our esoteric elitist terms?
May 8, 2008 3:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
By taking our orders at your friendly neighborhood latte counter every morning would be my assumption.
May 8, 2008 4:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
I live in the hometown of Obama elitists, San Francisco.
May 8, 2008 5:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm not saying I love the current primary calendar, but if you seat MI and FL as elected, what was the point of all this? And what does it bode for 2016?
If you seat it as is, Hillary will start bitchin' that she should have had those delegates then, then she would have had momentum, perception of winning, etc., etc., and so therefore the election was stolen from her.
Truly, about 15 laws of unintended consequences are getting trashed here.
May 8, 2008 2:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
She's playing a "word game" - an illogical nefarious word game, which butchers logic! She wants to butcher logic right to the convention floor, then on to November and for 8 years of dictating butchered logic!
May 8, 2008 3:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
I have a bunch of friends in Detroit and none of them even voted because their only choice was Hillary or uncommitted, when they wanted to vote for Edwards or Obama.
She should let Michigan decide what Michigan does. I don't know why the world seems to think that Hillary Clinton is in charge of the rules of this election. She was fine with Florida and Michigan not counting when she didn't need them to.
May 8, 2008 2:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
THE VOTERS OF MICHIGAN AND FLORIDA MUST BE COUNTED SO THAT THE SUPERDELEGATES CAN OVERTHROW THE VOTERS' CHOICE AND NOMINATE HILLARY CLINTON FOR PRESIDENT OF THE USA!!
THEY CAN'T DISCOUNT VOTERS UNTIL ALL THE VOTES ARE COUNTED!!
THIS IS WHAT DEMOCRACY LOOKS LIKE!!
May 8, 2008 2:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
see...here's the thing. they could have offered hillary 100% of the delegates and she still would have turned it down because now, its not about seating the delegates. Its about counting the votes so her "popular vote" strategy will remain, at least theoretically, viable.
May 8, 2008 2:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's weird:
"I personally did not think it made any difference whether my name was on the ballot. You know, It's clear this election they are having is not going to count for anything." - Hillary
May 8, 2008 2:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, yeah. But words don't count.
May 8, 2008 2:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Even better in audio:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ULxxBz-PAjg
May 8, 2008 3:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Very Good Dancing Bear!
Thanks for the link.
I can no longer tell whether any of these so-called HRC supporters are serious because they just do not make rationaL arguments.
May 10, 2008 7:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
Denver should be a blast.
Oh yeah, Spider Jerusalem is awesome.
May 8, 2008 2:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Otto F
I cannot let that go. Hillary and Barack and Chris Dodd and JOhn Edwards and Joe Biden and Dennis Kucinich and EVERY CANDIDATE agreed to the party's rules well in advance of Michigan and Florida's voting. The rule was that their delegates would not count unless they scheduled their voting for Feb. 5 or later.
Did Obama know to float the idea of seating the delegates later down the road, once he had a lead? Of course he did. And, he's not so naive to think he can ignore Florida and Michigan. But, he is also not so dumb as to agree to allow these two states to disregard the rules to benefit his adversary.
May 8, 2008 2:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh. Oh, I see. Running away, eh? You yellow bastards! Come back here and take what's coming to you. I'll bite your legs off!
-Sincerely, H. Clinton
May 8, 2008 2:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
My pity for her lasted a little less than 24 hours. With this and the 'hard working white voters' comment... sigh. We are watching a child's temper tantrum, from a 60 year old woman.
May 8, 2008 2:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
But daddy, I want an oopa-loompa now!
May 8, 2008 3:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hey! That's my line, and I'm not sharing it with Hillary Clinton!
May 8, 2008 3:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Apologies - it was actually your avatar that put the thought into my head a few weeks ago. Congratulations on your prescience!
May 8, 2008 3:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Comparing Veruca Salt to Hillary Clinton simply doesn't work. It's true that they both share a spoiled, whining, demanding, give it to me NOW! view of what the world owes them. And they both share a fondness for Oompa Loompas.
BUT, Veruca Salt is an elitist and would never, ever pretend otherwise.
May 8, 2008 8:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Michigan should just hold a caucus on June 3rd regardless of what Hillary thinks.
May 8, 2008 2:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
But, but, she hates caucuses!
May 8, 2008 2:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, Hillary keeps saying that Michigan "must" do this and "must" do that and never asks Obama's opinion.
The truth is Michigan doesn't have to ask anyone's opinion. They are free to hold a caucus whenever they want, and put it before the credentials committee just the same way Hillary plans on putting the absurd primary results before the credentials committee.
May 8, 2008 2:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
Search youtube for "Caucusing Is Easy", the Hillary promotional video.
It's like a Chicago Cubs World Champs 2003 T-Shirt.
May 8, 2008 3:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ah, the good ol' days when they believed every state actually counted.
May 8, 2008 3:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
one more thing about the michigan 'vote'.
there were alot of writeins for obama. They were all thrown out.
May 8, 2008 2:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
I got news for you Clinton Supporters in Michigan. If there was a recount, today, Obama would win fairly easily. He might have won it back then if he was on the ballot. Her decisions in Congress have had negative effects on Michigan. I have relatives there, born there, too. They all are behind Obama and they're white, middle class, in their 60s.
They didn't want a revote in Michigan, the Clinton camp, even though they bluster that they did. I think they know it wouldn't come out too well. Florida is another story. Clinton probably would win there if it was held. So basically, it's a wash. She should accept the 50/50 and move on.
May 8, 2008 2:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
The disappointing thing about Michigan rejecting a re-vote is that it denies Obama one more chance to Clean Clinton's Clock. Which he would do.
May 8, 2008 5:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
How much more proof do you folks need that Hillary has no intention of ending her campaign. Wake up people, and fight back. You have been lulled into a false sense of security. Hillary is going to wage trench warfare from now on. Stop all the celebrating and pick up your weapons.
Hillary is now openly playing the race card, openly cheating on the convention rules, and claiming that she can use the Republican nomination rules to win.
Do not back off and give her breathing space. That is what she wants you to do. If you give her an inch she will take a mile. Fight like Senator Obama is still behind, because Hillary is coming after him.
Hillary is the Relentless Monster of Samantha Power's Nightmares.
You better stop hoping that Hillary will defang herself. Do you really believe in such Fairy Tales.
May 8, 2008 2:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
She has said outright that she has no intention of quitting.
And she shouldn't. This issue will fire her and her supporters up. Obama once again is on the defensive while Clinton controls the narrative.
May 8, 2008 3:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
You better open the check book then. Mark Penn doesn't not know the rules for free.
May 8, 2008 3:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Exactly Fogu - 2% chance isn't 0%
May 8, 2008 3:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Have you talked to Taylor Marsh since Tuesday?
May 8, 2008 3:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
You really are delusional. And full of shit.
When you attempt to provoke irritation, it helps to focus on a heart warming thought:
"Your side lost, loser".
May 8, 2008 8:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
I just hope any intelligent person who is still unsure about how to resolve this, steps back for a moment and considers the absolute ridiculousness of what the Clinton camp thinks is fair.
They want to take an election where one of the candidates WAS NOT EVEN ON THE BALLOT, and count those votes.
And the Clintons don't even blink when they say there's absolutely nothing wrong with this.
Any rational, democratically-minded individual can immediately see what is wrong with this. Not surprisingly, the Clintons and their minions are utterly blind to it.
May 8, 2008 3:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
But that's the whole point! The clintons are experts at a kind of pretzel logic - something which appears logical to some (the intended audience) but ties the neurons in knots for everyone else! It is an insidiously destructive manner of speech - which destroys speech sense in the process!
May 8, 2008 3:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hillary's exit strategy is similar to Bush's Iraq exit strategy - there is none because its about staying in it to win it until the end
May 8, 2008 3:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
I fear you're correct here.
May 8, 2008 3:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
George Stephy on Good Morning America:
"The second big problem for the Clinton campaign right now is money. We know that Senator Clinton loaned herself a little more than $11 million. Going into April, the campaign finance reports show the campaign was carrying a debt of $10 million to $15 million. My sources are now telling that that number is far higher. The campaign debt is far higher than ten million dollars. It could be double that, maybe even more. And the lack of money and load of that debt could be driving the decisions inside the Clinton camp in coming days."
May 8, 2008 3:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
That 10 million in debt going into April did NOT include the 5 million she had loaned her campaign.
I really hope Obama doesn't pay off her debts. She shouldn't be rewarded for the nasty campaign she has run and her fiscal mismanagement.
May 8, 2008 3:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
They've been broke before and come back. They have commitment.
You really think Obama would have lent his campaign any money? The guy who couldn't donate more than 1% od hia six-figure income until he wanted quid pro quo for his presidential run?
Obamites are a deluded bunch. The reality will be tough to swallow.
May 8, 2008 3:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
Heh, he said "swallow".
May 8, 2008 3:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
They're not broke. Broke means you have zero dollars. They're well into the negatives right now.
May 8, 2008 3:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's not her commitment that's kept her going, it's Bill's money.
May 8, 2008 3:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
Bill's money that he got by doing things like promoting the Colombian trade deal that Hillary opposes. $800,000 he got for that.
May 8, 2008 3:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Right on Fogu - I think you'd agree that if you're rich enough - you should be able to keep on fighting for what you believe in.
May 8, 2008 3:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Again - dead on Fogu - I can't get over how dellusional the Obama people are. Now more than evern - it's so important that we hillary people "keep it real" and refuse to lose!
May 8, 2008 3:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
You need to go back to irony school.
'Taint workin' fer ya. You need to inject humor for irony to matter.
May 8, 2008 5:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama better make sure Clinton is OUT before he agreed to have the Mich and Fla delegates seated. If she just suspends her campaign, she could then jump right back in with the new votes.
However at least it's Clinton standing in front of seating the delegates for a change. Insisting that she should get full results from the disqualified primary where Barack wasn't even on the ballot is ridiculous. Of course she has her Nuclear Plan already in motion that will see her get 80% of the Michigan delegates.
May 8, 2008 3:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
I can see Hillary running for president as an Independent.
May 8, 2008 3:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Can't you imagine how they would torture the word "independent" if she does? It would sound like people were being independent, but in fact they would become pawns in a game beyond their ken!
May 8, 2008 3:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Nah, she couldn't raise the money.
May 8, 2008 3:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Don't bet on it. Fanatics have been known to sell off everything to support their hero worship.
May 8, 2008 3:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
I fear you're right too!
May 8, 2008 3:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
And kick off her campaign in Philadelphia, Mississippi, talking about States Rights.
May 8, 2008 5:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Gotalife and chickenhead wrote this _amazing_ op-ed in the NYT in July 2007 about the DNC disenfranchising Michigan, and how unfair it was, and how they're not going to stand for it anymore. Seriously.
And Hillary quoted it in her appearance on New Hampshire NPR last October when she said the Michigan election was a travesty that would disenfranchise voters, and that she wanted it to count. Google it and see.
They've been living this principle for a year now. So everyone better _back off_.
May 8, 2008 3:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think what fogger is trying to say here is that he likes to foam into his coffee on the down low, you know, a little santorum gives it that trollish flavor.
May 8, 2008 3:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
a little santorum
Eeeww!
May 8, 2008 3:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Gotalifefan posts
1st:
I think Gotalife would agree with me that it is totally Obama's fault for not putting himself on the ballot. Rules are meant to be broken.
Then says:
Totally agree Gotalife - I think I speak for both of us when I saw that Obama needs to start playing by the rules - just like Hillary.
umm I am confused? should I be?
Zion
May 8, 2008 3:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Zion needs to get off the Kool aid - and I think Gotalife and Fogu would agree with me.
May 8, 2008 3:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
He is an anti-troll. He is doing God's work.
May 8, 2008 3:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
I love it! God's work! Yes!!!
♪♪♪
May 8, 2008 4:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Good girl Hills. Don't let em give you any shit
May 8, 2008 3:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
THIS
May 8, 2008 3:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
IS
May 8, 2008 3:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
The campaign debt is far higher than ten million dollars.
Herein the real issue.
Hill and Bill want to "refill the old exchequer" in return for acquiescence to reality.
Money talks, bullshit walks.
vide the various proposals to "retire" the campaign debt (including the debt she owes herself.)
People of New York State arise! Flush this piece of shit down the toilet next time she shows her loathsome face on a ballot for the Dem Senatorial nomination.
May 8, 2008 3:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Blacks4Barack Launches:
The HILLARY
"STEP DOWN
WITH GRACE"
CAMPAIGN
Following N. Carolina and Indiana, it has become obvious that there is absolutely no way Hillary Clinton can win the Democratic nomination. With 6 primaries remaining it is impossible for her to catch Obama in the delegate count, number of states won or even the popular vote, so the bottom line is she must face the fact that OBAMA HAS WON ! Hillary's staying in the race is extremely harmful to the Democratic Party.....therefore....
Contact the DNC to let
Howard Dean know that we
feel that Hillary should step
down in a respectful manner
since she is obvously not going
to win the nomination (without cheating....which will not be tolerated)
This would be the right gesture for her political future as well as the right gesture for the Democratic Party. Just Call The DNC at
(202)863-8000
.....respectfully request
the DNC to ask Hillary to step-down NOW ! Then it will be time to concentrate
on The Re-Birth Of America !
http://www.Blacks4Barack.org
A Multi-Racial Org...Dedicated To Truth !
May 8, 2008 3:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
The only shit I smell is the shitty campaign Hillary Clinton ran the last 18 months.
It's her own fault she lost.
Sniff Sniff... hurts, doesn't it?
May 8, 2008 3:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
I really don't get Fogu2s and gotalife's argument.
They want the FL and MI delegates seated, so that Obama wins?
That can't be right!
It must be a trap.
FL and MI will give Hillary 56 delegates. He's 161 ahead according to CNN.
So, yeah, seat them. End this.
May 8, 2008 3:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
The supers from those states also will count though so it's a bit more than the 56.
May 8, 2008 3:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hee hee....
May 8, 2008 5:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
BTW that is not correct. Until the dlegates vote the breakdow will be:
Clinton : 178
Obama : 67
Uncommitted : 55
So in the ever important official count Clinton will gain 111 delegates.
Hee hee....
May 8, 2008 5:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
She has no interest in actually resolving either MI or FL, since she would then be completely without whining points or nouveau metrix.
And, if she somehow manages to hold on till the Rules Cmte meeting at the end of May, I would fully expect her supporters there to exercise the nuclear option in an effort to take all MI and FL delegates as is. It seems like everyone is assuming that they wouldn't dare, but it also seems plain that the Clinton loyalists are concerned, above all, with winning at all costs, just like their patrons. That, and the fact that they all get jobs in the admin is more than enough reason to thumb their noses at the rest of the party, including the majority of the voters whom the Clintons are convinced will come in to the fold come November. It's hard to wrap your head around such an eventuality, but if you start with the true belief that only Hillary can save the party, the rest follows.
May 8, 2008 3:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hillary Camp response:
"You must count all of the votes that we already agreed would not be voted. And furthermore, you must pay all of my campaign debts incurred to date and must also agree to pay the additional debt that I intend to build between now and the convention. And for my 3rd wish...I want...3 more wishes!"
May 8, 2008 4:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hillary Camp response:
"You must count all of the votes that we already agreed would not be counted. And furthermore, you must pay all of my campaign debts incurred to date and must also agree to pay the additional debt that I intend to build between now and the convention. And for my 3rd wish...I want...3 more wishes!"
May 8, 2008 4:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Something else to keep in mind:
Between FL and MI, there are nearly 50 superdelegates either pledged to Clinton or uncommitted, who could just as easily go with Clinton out of some kind of revenge motive.
Florida 8 Clinton plus 12 uncommitted, possibly Clinton
Michigan: 8 Clinton plus 19 uncommitted.
May 8, 2008 4:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
actually, I can see the Supers not getting seated as Punishment.
After all, they aren't "voters."
But, even if they are seated: Do you really think all 31 would go to Obama?
May 8, 2008 4:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
all 31 to Hillary, I mean.
May 8, 2008 4:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
I say we sit the pledge delgates as is. Sit Florida according to the results and give Obama the 55 uncomitted delegates and popular vote. The DNC should keep the ban on the superdelegates.
It is the elected leaders of these states that tried to move up their primary so it is the elected leaders of these stats that should not be allowed to vote.
May 8, 2008 4:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
WTF!
A primary where Obama isn't on the ballot and Clinton complains about ONLY getting a 10 delegate advantage!
Carville was right - she does have 3 balls.
May 8, 2008 4:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
They're called "marbles." And she's lost them!
♪♪♪
May 8, 2008 4:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
And she's lost them!
N.B. Not just idle chatter, but the diagnosis of a trained professional.
May 8, 2008 6:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Both should be given as their primaries were run. She won both and should have the delegates accordingly or you don't seat either State. Take your pick. If I was Hillary that would be the options or shove it.
May 8, 2008 4:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't think the candidate that lost has much leverage.
May 8, 2008 4:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah!
May 8, 2008 4:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
This was meant in reply to GotALifeFan above:
"The DNC needs to lay off these "rules" and think more about results - just like the GOP (Republicans)."
May 8, 2008 4:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
So MI isn't good enough to come up with its own compromise? The Clinton campaign is just going to have to accept that they don't get to have all of their ill-gotten gains from FL and MI. I mean, if she can do that, why not just throw out the entire primary process altogether! We should have just let Clinton be the nominee last year, and to heck with anyone else, right? Who needs rules? Who needs guidelines, especially if they're going to interfere with Hillary Clinton and her ambitions? Those states are working hard to come up with compromises that will allow the FAIR and EQUITABLE seating of delegates. If that's not good enough for Clinton, then NUTS to her!
May 8, 2008 4:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Shrillary really is deranged--see below, where she presumes to tell Obama what he "must" do--
speaketh the schoolmarm.
What a see you next Tuesday.
Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.) on Thursday sent a letter to Democratic front-runner Sen. Barack Obama (Ill.), asking him to work with her on a solution to allow delegates from Florida and Michigan to help choose the party’s presidential nominee.
“Your commitment to the voters of these states must be clearly stated and your support for a fair and quick resolution must be clearly demonstrated,” the former first lady said.
May 8, 2008 4:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
You were better when you stuck to your rating shtick.
Stick with your limited capabilities.
May 8, 2008 4:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Can we PLEASE get a list of the superdelegates emails so we can all tell them to get off their arses and end this nonsense?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!
Geez....It makes me so sad to see a former first lady reduced to this kind of antics. Its so beneath you Hillary!!!!
May 8, 2008 5:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am in Michigan and my husband read online this afternoon that she wants pledged delegates to be 73/55 and the Supers would be seated.
This really sucks, we voted uncommitted specifically because we didn't want her all the way back in January and long before. My mother is 91 and I got the message from Mark Brewer our DNC chairman to vote uncommitted and NOT write in our vote. I don't know how many people didn't know that plus there were tons of people who just did not vote here in Michigan.
May 8, 2008 6:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hillary is absolutely right. Obama foolishly pulled his name off the ballot so he should get zero delegates. The Obama campaign often points out how badly Hillary's campaign managed the caucus states. That may be true, but it is nowhere near as dumb a move as pulling your name off the ballot. I suppose he did it because he did not want to appear to lose yet another big blue state to Hillary.
May 8, 2008 7:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, they should count them like Jimmy Carter said:
IN 2012.
May 8, 2008 8:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Although in the future, I shall endeavor to make my posts more about policy than personality, I feel overwhelmingly compelled to use my TPM coming out party time to engage in a much deserved, and personally satisfying character (or lack thereof) assassination of GotaLifeFan.
To paraphrase Evil from Time Bandits, "Oh, GotaLifeFan... Dear GotaLifeFan, you are so mercifully free of the ravages of intelligence." Have you ever attempted the pursuit of an independent thought; an idea that your mind actually generated? Based on your posts, I daresay no. Each and every one of them is merely a "way to go" semantic high five of the ideas that were put forth by GotaLife or Fogu2. While I think most of the arguments put forth by GotaLife and Fogu2 are ill-conceived, vapid tripe laden cries of fear with a mix of desperation and dark sophistry, at least they are trying to make them. You are the Flick in A Christmas Story, who merely follows Scott Farkus around repeating his insipid Philistine threats to compensate for his own inadequacy and lack of personal identity. Also like Flick, you would rather champion an ethically challenged bully than think for yourself. (Insert GotaLife, Fogu2, or HRC here...all apply)
In short, my sad cerebral pygmy, you are the worst kind of fraud. You are a sheep. You are a Padawan of the pander. A conspicuous consumer of cronyism. A dwarf of the didactic deluge. A prostitute of piecemeal plagarism. You are an intellectual looter...a pickpocket of bad ideas. But then again, you are a HRC supporter, so the distinct lack of redeeming qualities should not come as a shocker.
Were I one to engage in the rhetorical, I might allow myself to ponder how much GotaLIfe pays you to felate him psychologically...but I shall save that judgment for others.
Please go back to cheating at Monopoly and leave the exchange of ideas for the big kids. In the meantime, I shall dare to engage in The Audacity of Hope that you may someday come to the table of critical thinking and drink from the cup.
May 8, 2008 8:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
If the situation were reversed with Hillary ahead in pledged delegates and Obama (or Edwards or Richards or anybody) trying to get MI admitted when HER name wasn't on the ballot, she'd be fighting it tooth and nail. The fact that the Obama camp is willing to give her a ten delegate spread on this is magnanimous.
But all her talk of letting the voters voices be heard, etc, is just plainly evident self-service. It's as obvious as can be.
If Obama loses this year (a possibility that can't be dismissed), she'll run in 2012 for sure. The only thing that could stop her would be if she drops dead. But after this week's remarks about "white voters" being the party's true base and after her obvious self serving ethics on the FL and (especially) MI issues, I have to think she'll enter the 2012 primaries almost mortally wounded from the very start.
May 8, 2008 9:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Gotalifefan, didn't I watch you on American X?
.. seems that he is tugging on the coattails of some very fine role models..as he laughs at all their jokes, and help them pick out their clothes..
boy is that sad..
Zion
May 8, 2008 10:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Dammit dammit dammit. I just typed a lot of really smart stuff! Really I did!
I just did something really stupid and erased it all :(
Anyhow ... nice to see the Chicken head/bodies made it back after NC/IN. Folks were worried about ya.
May 8, 2008 11:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Isn't this really a decision for the upcoming rules committee meeting?
If I remember correctly (can't find the link at the moment), they have already indicated that the Florida delegation will be seated with a half slate of delegates. That one is easy because everyone was on the ballot (and a judge didn't invalidate the election). I can't remember what the deal is with the supers (I think they get a full slate? Back-asswards if you ask me).
Michigan is a bigger problem - "Anybody's guess". That's because outside of Hillaryland it is reasonably obvious that an election with only one name on the ballot is well - not really a fair election (Robert Mugabee comes to mind). Further complicating matters, a judge has declared the entire election illegal and vacated the results. It will be interesting how they pull off seating anyone and still find a way to say the democratic party is governed by rules (Carter's recent observation).
However they split the delegates (I'm guessing it will be 50/50), I think we can be sure that if they plan to sanction Florida, they will also seat MI as a half delegation.
IMO, the "magic" number will go up ... but not as much as Clinton is pushing for. There will probably be additional sanctions (convention procedure crap).
I don't foresee the committee taking much guff from Clinton. They were testy with her "Nuclear Option" announcement even before the last primaries. Clinton's clout has clearly diminished since then. She's on borrowed time.
May 9, 2008 12:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
Apparently Hillary is only concerned about Michigan if it works to her favor, gee what a suprise. Can we just imagine her being so insistant on "counting all votes" otherwise? But then, as she said today she has the "white vote" How disgusting does this have to get?
May 9, 2008 1:23 AM | Reply | Permalink
I read a column in the LA times that said the rules committee was mad up of 21 members: 13 Clinton supporters and 8 Obama. Could they-WOULD they actually seat Fla and Mi as given the clinton majority? Do they answer to anyone but htemselves?
May 9, 2008 1:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
wow....what a poorly typed post....
May 9, 2008 2:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
Don't you just love how this guy always uses the words "That simple"? How dismissive. Just like Dick Cheney. Dick, is that you?
May 9, 2008 2:10 AM | Reply | Permalink
Do you remember when Al Gore, despite winning more than 500,000 (half a million) votes nationwide over Bush and despite voting irregularities in Florida, the recount was bullied by people flown in to Florida to disrupt the process? Well, it is happening again. Only this time it is Hillary Clinton employing the same tactics. Votes in Michigan and Florida were never supposed to count because they violated Democratic Party rules, written partially by Harold Ickes from the Clinton Team when he was working for the DNC. Let me ask you this. Would Clinton be calling for those votes to count if she lost to Uncommitted? Hillary Clinton is sociopathically corrupt, immoral and fraudulent. She is unfit to lead this country.
May 9, 2008 12:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
CLINTON MUST START A THIRD PARTY
Farhat Maquami
In all Western style Democraciesfrom Israel to India, from Italy to Canada when one side notices a fundamantal injustice , then it immediately start a new Party.
Hillary Clinton, whose supporters are middle America, has a constituancy that might follow her and vote for her as a third party Candidate!
It seems that Obama Mania has blinded the so-called Democratic party, that is a hodge podge of varing interest group, and the time has come for Hillary take a stand and make history. Splitting the Democratic Party would accually bring Democracy and real Change to Washington. The New splinter group can unite with other splinter groups from the Republican Party, Green Party, etc and become a viable party.
Hillary Clinton has more following and more assets than Joe Liberman, who defied the Democrats and survived as an independent candidate.
Hillary should not tolerate the daily attack, mockery, and the force of confused young intellectuals that are voting for Obama's Hope message!"Until there is a two party system in America there would be no hope and no chnage is going to happen in Washington" Bob Barr declared today.
It is high time that instead of being fooled by snake oil salesmen, left or right, starting a new Party, who would defend the interest of harworking American and would save our Democracy.
Hillary's can only make history by becoming revolutionary and bring a Real Change to American
May 12, 2008 6:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
The twit took himself off of the ballot in a cheap political stunt and threatened to sue if the legislature put him back on.
Fuck him. He gets what he earned from that craven move...nothing. He knew he was about to get his ass kicked and wanted to take his name off of the ballot to save himself a headline bummer.
May 21, 2008 2:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
Shouldn't we also honor the over 238,000 that voted against her? Or they don't count?
May 30, 2008 4:44 PM | Reply | Permalink