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Hillary: All Evidence Says I'm The Stronger Candidate

In the latest instance of Hillary Clinton using an argument of electability as her fallback position on why she should be the nominee, Hillary told a Montana crowd last night that every piece of evidence shows her to be the stronger candidate against John McCain.

"You have to ask yourself, who is the stronger candidate?" Clinton said. "And based on every analysis, of every bit of research and every poll that has been taken and every state that a Democrat has to win, I am the stronger candidate against John McCain in the fall."


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Yeah Hillary you're so strong that you managed to lose the Democratic nomination having every advantage at your fingertips. Behold the power!

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I wrote a comment and erased it - in which I said I will give her the benefit of the doubt and say that she believes that.

But I still don't think she's motivated to keep this up for that reason - I don't think it's love of country and hate of repugs that is pushing her.

Tena, I did the same thing. Her statement is so delusional that I actually feel a bit sorry for her. I'm certain that she totally believes her own hype.

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I feel badly for both of them for only this reason: I hate watching them do this to themselves and destroying Bill's legacy. We've all said it - so many of us defended Bill and Hillary for years - it's not pleasant watching them do this to themselves.

I find it squirm-inducing - I'm embarrassed for them.

The real problem is that her supporters believe her. That's why they're so angry.

You could not possibly be more correct. That is indeed the real danger of her delusion and hubris at this point.

Well. I’m kind of disappointed. You guys are so excited that the rules ACTUALLY!!! LOL YAHOO!!! Favor Barack. You shouldn’t be. He followed the rules. And Mrs. Clinton is trying to break them. I really think you should all delve a little deeper into why that is, rather than doing a victory dance.

The Democratic Party sanctioned Florida and Michigan why?

What where they trying to do this cycle, and keep other BIG states from doing in the next cycle?

What implications does NOT doing this have for future elections, and big states moving their primaries forward?

Why would the Democratic Party want to stop states from moving their primaries forward in future contests?

What would Primary contest anarchy look like?

Why did Hillary and Barack agree to these sanctions at the beginning of the contest? (not to mention every other Democrat running for POTUS this cycle?)


Pssst….. I’ll give you a hint. That is what we should be talking about….

Not running victory laps, giving Obama High fives because we killed Clinton….

That is insulting to Clinton supporters who deeply deeply want her to win. Followers who have been told by Mrs and Mr Clinton that this is a fight worth having…

I would suggest that you explain why the rules are the way they are. And its probably best not to shack your walnut sack at them and tell Clinton supporters to “Stick THAT in their ass, BITCH” I think that might make them unhappy. Whether they are trolls, or normal Hillary fans who check out TPM and look at comments curious about what bloggers are talking about.

But that’s just my humble opinion.

Hooops... Wrong thread.

And monkeys just flew out of my butt!

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That's not the first time I've said that.

Not by a long shot.

I'm not a monster - I just have a temper.

YouTube?

Dude, you get that looked at...

Sniper bullets of evidence!

Duck!

Here's how it's done, Greg and Eric:

From CBS News’ Fernando Suarez:


BILLINGS, MONT. -- During an evening rally in Montana’s largest city Tuesday night, Hillary Clinton explained to the crowd why she should be the Democratic Party’s nominee, but what ensued was a list of overstatements and exaggerations as she made her case. “You have to ask yourself, who is the stronger candidate? And based on every analysis, of every bit of research and every poll that has been taken and every state that a Democrat has to win, I am the stronger candidate against John McCain in the fall,” she said.

The problem is, there are a number of polls that show Clinton in a close race with John McCain, many within the margin of error, not including a few that show Barack Obama beating McCain by a larger margin than Clinton. The comment was intended to prove to voters that despite Obama’s popularity, she has what it takes to beat John McCain. Clinton said that voters have to ask themselves, “Who is the stronger candidate against John McCain? We have not gone through this exciting, unprecedented, historic election, only to lose,” she said.

For days, Clinton has been grasping at almost anything to make her case to voters as the clock in the campaign winds down. Most recently Clinton compared the plight of Florida and Michigan voters to the struggles of the early suffragists and likened the primaries of those states to the fraudulent election that took place in Zimbabwe.

Maybe she truly believes she is the best candidate. I certain believe it.

Being an older American and paying the high cost of individual health insurance, I want Universal Healthcare and her plan is a great start (unlike the other guy who just wants to ensure kids are insured).

Whether or not you believe she is the most electable now, what about after the republicans REALLY start ripping away at Obama? Fact is, he isn't as clean as he may seem. What will you all think then? It will be too late. There are many links from reliable sources to questionable acts of Obama and they should not be readily dismissed. Trying to link them here would be impossible... look for yourself, but open your eyes first!!!!


So you believe the one who previously was going to produce a new health care plan (1990s) and who has been in the senate for several years without producing one, just as in the 90's, is suddenly going to be the one to bring health care reform.

Don't count on it. She's already been given over a decade to accomplish it and seemed to have forgotten about it prior to these primaries.

Except for the 50+% negatives; the inability to hold WI, IA, WA; the inability to compete in VA or CO, and the fact that she is no longer a candidate for VP. Other than that, maybe.

"Montana, all of the evidence says I'm the stronger candidate. Except, of course, for all of the evidence that shows my opponent is stronger and like your state, that evidence doesn't count."

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Hey!
Only Montanans like me can say Montana doesn't count.

But you're right. This is the only time my vote has meant anything at all, and I know it doesn't mean too much this time.

I'm referring to the Mark Penn Insult Forty States strategy, not to the importance of Montana's primary.

The problem being that "every piece of ecidence" shows no such thing.

OOPS! Her bad....

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Well, Bill keeps telling people that she's winning the general election against McLame.

They are both confused about this process, from the looks of things. I find it impossible to believe they are really confused. They get this, they are just banking heavily on no one else getting it.

"Banking" on it, indeed. Just how many millions was her campaign in debt, again? And just how much is she personally in the hole here?

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I don't get that - she's been running on fumes and debt for over a month and still they both push.

It's quite the spectacle at this point. They're going out with a big bang.

manual spell check runs so slow... E-C-I-, E-X-X, E-V-I-D-E-N-C-E...

She can't shoot or pass. She's not a team player. She hogs the ball. Heck even her jersey doesn't sale.

I'm not seeing it. Can we make a trade for a stronger player?

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Not afraid to foul her own team either.

Was that every piece of 'evidence' or every piece of 'excrement?'

Clinton is full of shit. I read her comments on the left side of the screen and on the right I see polls showing Obama cleaning her clock in nationwide polls. She's as dedicated to truthiness as George Bush.

"Evidence" is good word choice. She's treating this entire primary season like a trial that she can argue her way through no matter what the primary results are.

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What a great observation.

I have been thinking for the past two months or so -- since it was fairly clear that Obama was going to be the nominee -- that the Clinton campaign has been treating HRC's candidacy very much like a lawyer who is representing a client who had a loser case. As the old saying goes, if the facts are good, you argue the facts. If the law is good, you argue the law. If neither are good, you just argue. That is why they take crazy positions like their 180 degree reversal on counting Michigan and Florida; why they claim a popular vote lead when there is no such lead under any legitimate metric; why they argue that white working class voters in red state Appalachia are the key to victory in November, etc. It amounts to "just arguing." It is all they have, so like dutiful lawyers that is what they go with. The most important thing to remember in this type of situation is that when someone is in "just argue" mode, you have to recognize it and give the arguments they are making the appropriate weight (i.e., not much). The press has not really been doing this, presumably because they have a vested interest in seeing the primary battle prolonged.

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If polls won elections, then she'd be the victor.

Unfortunately - it's getting elected that wins elections, and at that Hillary Clinton isn't so strong.

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Hell, that's all that needs to be said - what you said.

Also:

A Democratic Party rules committee has the authority to seat some delegates from Michigan and Florida but not fully restore the two states as Hillary Rodham Clinton wants, according to party lawyers.

Democratic National Committee rules require that the two states lose at least half of their convention delegates for holding elections too early, the party's legal experts wrote in a 38-page memo.

Ruh roh, Raggy.

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That's what I read late yesterday in a Florida paper - looks like delegates will be seated and their votes and the superdelegates' votes will be valued at 50%.

That's a decent solution, IMO.

The Republicans did that, right? Bill went off-message on the campaign trail one day and said that's what the DNC should've been done in the first place. Only thing I've agreed with him on in months.

It's a fair resolution and will enable Obama to lockdown the nomination on June 3. Too bad they didn't decide this in January, so the voters would have known and all candidates would have been back on the ballot in MI.

The problem is that Clinton will appeal any decision. She would probably even appeal a decision that gave her all of her already committed delegates in FL and MI at full weight if she didn't get a bigger share in Michigan as Lanny Davis has suggested. She will find a way to appeal to try to drag this on. That is why all remaining Supers including all the big guns will endorse Obama on June 4 after he has clinched by the rules on the book as of June 3. I expect some more of Clinton's current Supers will also flip for the sake of Party unity.

Maybe, just maybe, she will get the message and withdraw gracefully.

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I don't think she'll withdraw then, because she has already said she will campaign for the nominee. If she drops out she would have to stop campaigning for herself. I think she is constitutionally unable to do that.

With her obviously low opinion of Barrack, how could she turn around and start campaigning for him? It is as hard for me to imagine as it is for me to think of Barrack offering Hillary the VP. She stands for so many things he has run against.

I also don't believe she is remotely capable of actually campaigning for Obama at this point. Hubris is as hubris does.

Here's a link to the 38 pages of meeting materials that the Rules & Bylaws Committee received.

http://hotlineblog.nationaljournal.com/pdf/5-31%20Meeting%20Materials.pdf

It's noteworthy that, while the RBC is capped at a 50 percent restoration of the contested delegates, the Credentials Committee could change that.

Heaven forbid!

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Someone here suggested a solution that seems to me to have merit: Count the delegates as they are, and take away all the superdelegates.

My addition to this is to simply let the "uncommitted" delegates choose, right then, whom they support. If it's Hillary, so be it. If it's Obama, fine.

That way, there would be some punishment (which HAS to be a part of this, or there will be even MORE chaos next time.) and what rational person could actually, legitimately object to this?

If Hillary doesn't get 100% seating of MI and FL, she will take this to the Credentials Committee in August. You can bank on it.

I'm scared your right, but I'm thinking that if enough supers line up behind Obama so that even a full seating of the delegations wouldn't matter, then even she would have to get the message.

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Once that happens, then Obama has to act like he is the presumptive nominee; announce his VP, never mention anyone except McCain, and campaign as though Hillary didn't exist (except to mention often what a great person she is, of course.)

Yeah, he will have to keep mentioning how great she was, because there are still a lot of bitter (can I use that word?) Hillary supporters who will need to be brought back in with the party.

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Obviously, she's overstating her case. The kernel of truth is that for the past two weeks her electoral map has looked better than Obama's -- so if the general election was tomorrow, she would have a better chance of winning than him. (See www.fivethirtyeight.com.) Of course, the election isn't tomorrow, and for the entire campaign prior to two weeks ago, Obama had a better electoral map. And it's quite arguable that Hillary is doing better now because Obama is getting double-teamed by Hillary and the entire GOP and she's not getting attacked by anyone -- as she is increasingly seen as having no chance at the nomination, and as she is increasingly ignored, she becomes a "Generic Democrat" in people's minds and for that reason is smoking McCain in the polls.

Eric, how about some analysis of the facts instead of the just repeating Clinton b.s.? There are a number of polls that show Clinton in a close race with John McCain, many within the margin of error, not including a few that show Barack Obama beating McCain by a larger margin than Clinton

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All evidence says that Hillary is either a bald-faced liar or completely nuts. Perhaps both.

Its a no brainer.

She would crush McCain.

Yep, she's so strong as a candidate, she couldn't even win over her own party. She'll be great as Chappequa's dog catcher.

Probably not. At this point she's doing well because NO ONE IS CAMPAIGNING AGAINST HER. Obama sure as hell hasn't trained his guns on her seriously in weeks. Same for McCain. If she were the presumptive nominee, methinks the atmosphere would dramatically different. Just something to keep in mind while you are playing the "what if" game.

Absolutely. He was running better against McCain than she was until she tried to drag Obama through the mud and divide the Democratic Party. I can't imagine what the Republicans would have done to her in the general (oh wait... yes I can, because it would've looked a lot like what she tried to do to Obama).

Haddalife: "She would crush McCain."

Depends on how much more fat she can put on between now and November. But I agree with you that at least on this metric she has Obama beat.

"it's a no-brainer"

Coming from you, I have to agree.

Huh? How about the recent numbers out of California? Isn't that a state a Democrat has to win?

California doesn't count anymore.

She reminds me of the losing football coach who argues that his team won in every statistical category except the score.

And naturally, the hardest of the Clintons' hard core are sufficient in number to skew polling a few points to support their argument. Add that to the absolute irrelevance of general election polling this far out, and especially while one nomination is being vigorously contested by a slash-and-burn candidacy. If Spring polling was a reliable indicator, wouldn't the history books mention President Dukakis and his landslide victory?

It goes back to what I've been saying for months. The Clintons are simply delusional narcissists. They don't believe anyone can "save" the Democratic Party but them (think about the delusion there - that the Democratic Party as re-energized by Howard Dean and Nancy Pelosi needs "saving"), so it really wouldn't mean anything if they tore the Party apart. In their deluded view, the Party will self-destruct anyway unless they are in charge.

I think they truly do believe that. It's more than a bit scary.

And President Perot.

Bill Clinton was currently polling at 28% in 1992.

Elections are won by effective campaigns. Early polls are won by name recognition.

Clinton was "leading" among Minnesota caucus-goers by 20+ points in January of 2008. We saw what two weeks of actual campaigning did to that.

Why is this posted as a news item?

Schaudenfreude?

The same reason people slow down for car crashes....

I don't think the word "all" means what you think it means.

Logic is a field closely related to mathematics, which she's acknowledged, and demonstrated, not to be her strong suit.

Dear Voters:

A voter named "Concerned in Montana" wants to know the answer to this question: What does "It depends on what the meaning of "all" is" mean?

"All" is the evidence I tell you that you should count based on what I told you, so "all" is "all" you need to know.

Don't complicate matters, just believe what I tell you is true and don't trust anyone else who would tell you anything to the contrary.

Stare intently at the spinning wheel and let your mind go. One day you will get a call from me and I will ask you to do a special favor for me and Bill. Wait for that call. When you awake, you will feel very refreshed.

Thank you,
Hillary

What the evidence actually says is that Hillary is certifiable.

I think the Clinton's are gearing up for their new comedy career. This stuff is hilarious. Comedy Gold! How do they keep a straight face?

I too have always believed that pandering was a sign of strength.

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Pandering, with a side of lying, is the perfect dish.

All smart lawyers can win arguments if they are allowed to frame the question; that's what law school's for.

I'm the better candidate because:

I won the state with the most E's in it.
My states are bigger than your states.
If the election were held on Uranus in 2314, my cyberdelegate count would be higher than yours.
Etc.

But as noted above elections aren't cases precisely because they're supposed to be above argument. That's why Clinton's evocation of Florida 2000 gets me so angry! People have a visceral, fundamental repulsion against those who wish to argue against the rules in the middle of the game.

Exactly. I think the arguments should be laid out before the votes come in and the votes decide it. Arguing the results themselves too is just muddying the argument too much. It's like saying "well, the hard-working, white, hard-working jurors thought my client was innocent!"

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framing the question is right. They've been allowed to get away with misstating the situation and the "evidence" for months.

And someone posted a comment yesterday with a link to a story about some huge majority of voters wanting Hillary to stay in because of the "Popular Vote" which is something they made up as an issue and have pushed successfully, since every single pundit and pol has followed right along talking about this thing that does not exist.

That I am furious about. It could have been prevented if the pundits and the bloggers had called "foul" right from the start. Since there isn't any such thing. But that was Clinton strate and we're mired right in the big fat middle of it now.

I am in love!

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I'm with you. It's the main characteristic of a sore loser.

Next Wednesday, we'll see exactly how sore she is - and how much more she plans to manipulate her supporters into victims. Sigh.

Might I add, and I hope you don't take offense...girl, if that is actually you, you are straight-up fine!

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Clinton strategy - damned rented finners!

"You have to ask yourself, who is the stronger candidate?" Clinton said. "And based on every analysis, of every bit of research and every poll that has been taken and every state that a Democrat has to win, I am the stronger candidate against John McCain in the fall."

How many sharks can this pathetic candidate jump? Is she gonna explain to the Montana voters that they dont exist in her newest "calculation"? And that they will have to ignore the majority of polls and the majority of the analysis? HRC team has been blathering how all of the analysis is pro-obama, I mean WTF. Seriously WTF?

This can only play well with the deepest of koolaid drinkers (hadalife). The SDs are gonna turn off the life support soon, there is nothing left "up there"......

The ONLY tyhing that Hillary is stronger at....LYING...she is a MONSTER AND A LIAR

Did Hillary actually say every piece of evidence shows that she is the stronger candidate against McCain?
At that rate someone should just yank her out of her blissful self-induced slumber.

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I've been asking myself the clintons' question about who would be the strongest dem candidate in the fall for a year and a half now. Every bit of evidence, every poll, all analysis, etc., etc., point to any democrat breathing other than the clintons. It really is pathetic how these people lie. They are true narcissists. A true narcissist lies about everything to make themselves look wonderful and the clintons do it with abandon.

By the way, I find it repulsive how they keep changing the rules. First it was all about delegates until they got their clocks cleaned on February 5 and now its about popular vote. If it was about popular vote all along, obama would have had a completely different strategy and would be ahead by 2 million plus in the popular vote now. The clintons truly are despicable.

Hillary is still running and as long as she doesn't attack Obama (or allude to his demise), I'm OK with her making this argument. It's pretty moot and is easily refuted by Obama if he desires, but it better than just about anything else she has tried over the past month.

Obama has been ignoring her since NC/IN and it is working just fine. His Supers keep rolling in and he's getting major endorsements almost daily while he's fighting tit for tat with McCain.

The Clintons know that we know that they're lying. They know that the MSM knows that they're lying. But the people at their rallies don't know they're lying--the locals in South Dakota, Montana and Puerto Rico. Take into consideration the high percentage of low-information voters. Where do they get that "low-information"?

A little problem I have with the Obama campaign is that they don't
combat the lies with any level of strength at the local level.

I also don't think they have a strong surrogate response team on the MSM.

Don't get the wrong idea. I think the Obama campaign has been superior.

Maybe we can offer the campaign suggestions on what we think they could do better.

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Obama has been ignoring her since NC/IN and it is working just fine.

Yeah working fine. Except of course for the fact that the Clintons are still sucking all the oxygen out of the campaign; half the money that could be going to fund the convention, among other things, is tied up with the Clintons; and they've done damage to the party and to our nominee.

Other than that, it's been going great.

Case in point, her RFK crap really drowned out whatever coverage Obama's speech to Cuban Americans got.

I think the MSM has shifted too. Hillary is nowhere to be seen except for the outrageous comments Bubba and she have made. She is obviously not going to campaing for Obama so I am not sure what she is expected to say to voters in Montana, SD, and PR.

I don't agree that she is draining money from the DNC or diverting Obama's money either. He is campaining where he wants, when he wants against McCain. Thes is plenty of time for the DNC to raise money for their big party in Denver. The networkks will still air the speechs even if there is not as much booze and shrimp for the delegates, so I'm not too worried.

I did point out the RFK gaffe as an example of what she needs to be quiet about, but as long as she stays in positive, Huckabee mode so be it for 6 more days.

I find it funny that the most important piece of evidence, known as "delegates", is exactly where she is not stronger.

Same goes with # of superdelegates, polls, states won, REAL popular vote, FAKE popular vote, public opinion, and MSM coverage.

I think she is winning amongst racists, but then again, that former Klu Klux Klan member endorsed Obama.

It doesn't matter whether her statement is true or delusional. She just has to say it and the media will obligingly keep the issue alive.

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Bingo!


You got it and the press is so obliging. The Clintons are like cobras who have everyone hypnotized. They say Popular Vote, everyone goes right along - 50 articles on what it is, what it means, how it can be determined when it's a fucking UFO - it does not exist.

They mired us in this fucking mess, with oodles of help from the media.

Each supporter will only accept evidence that supports their candidate. Apparently there is more evidence to support Clinton's claim.

Clinton remains the bet candidate for president.

But her claim is "all evidence," not "more evidence."

Thus, her claim is false.

I think both Obama and Clinton would be fine general election candidates, though both have regional weaknesses that must first be attended to.

However, the fact of the matter is that Clinton's claim to being the best candidate is definitely refuted by the fact that she couldn't even win over her own party. The best candidate wins the contest. Clinton lost. I'm sure she'd do fine in the general election, but Obama has proven to be the superior campaigner.

"But the people at their rallies don't know they're lying--the locals in South Dakota, Montana and Puerto Rico. Take into consideration the high percentage of low-information voters. Where do they get that "low-information"?

A little problem I have with the Obama campaign is that they don't
combat the lies with any level of strength at the local level."

Your Concern seems a bit misplaced. First of all the beltway Assumption is that these are low info voters. Just because DC pundits dont know of them does not make the reverse true, as they do have working TV sets, the intertubes and newspapers in these "remote" areas.

Secondly the grassroots efforts of Obama, which of course has led to major $$$$ kind of refutes the meme of his not going to the local level, doesnt it?

Oh shut the F up you vapid thing.

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Can someone point out that no one has really been running against her? There hasn't been a negative ad run against her since...the NAFTA mailer in Ohio? Maybe the 2 days "she'll do anything to win" radio ad in South Carolina?

Her negatives are off the charts. If she was actually in a competitive race and wasn't the perpetual victim, she would not be polling so well. I bet if you polled Gore right now he'd blow her out of the water -- the point is, that the actual nominee takes the fire and that automatically depresses the comparative performance.

She's kind of ridiculous.

HRC is trying to combat Obamas strength at the local level with lies, because she thinks these people are as unfamiliar with the internet as she is. You have it backwards.

There is something deeply disturbing here about the Clintons.

No one is asking them to bow out of the race: not pundits, not the DNC, not Obama. But that is their meme, their mantra. Casting themselves as put upon, come from behind, the "Comback" kids, bouncing back from adversity, a personal legend.

Nowhere is there here respect for party, foresight for the prospects for Obama vs McCain in the general. For a different candidate (the rest of them, in fact) it's been, "I can't win, or I see X being the nominee, so for the good of the party, I'll step back, and perhaps support X." It's been that way for years. What is shocking about the Clintons' relentless strategy of Never Say Die (unless it's Obama) is that it has never been as caustic as this, and yet the political will behind it is so timeless.

They don't really care about the party; didn't before, even when it was controlled by their people, and definitely don't now that their DLC types have lost their grip. If the votes were there (and they're not), I'd worry that she'd pull a Lieberman.

A good lawyer knows to make her case before the verdict is handed down. A shitty lawyer whines about procedure after the fact.

Once again, her comments are being taken out of context.


Just wondering: Why doesn't the media understand that Hillary is no longer a major player in this?

If folks stopped responding to her antics, wouldn't she then stop this attention-seeking behavior? I feel like we're enabling/encouraging her. People tend to stop inappropriate behavior when they see it no longer works.

It's up to her. Apparently, she is the new "decider".

How about this? How about we end this hopeless falacy that is Clinton's run for president.

Here's some news- Obama's going to be the nominee. I think most of us have accepted that.

Now the Clinton supporters have to accept that. YOu don't have to like it, but you have to accept it. He won.

The question then remains will you support the Democratic party in the fall? No, you do not have to accept Obama the candidate. Sometimes in politics you have to vote for the party or the platform. Hillary's platform lines up pretty well in most of the important metrics (the war, the economy, healthcare)with Obama's (I'm not saying it will be an exact match). The point is sometimes you vote for the party or the platform even when you don't personally, or otherwise, like a candidate.

So what's it going to be Hillary supporters? You have to ask yourselves that question. Will you be a good Democrat, set aside your love for candidate, and do what is right? Can you vote for the platform, or the party, if not the man or woman?

If you cannot vote for Obama and will instead vote for McCain, I think you should find a new site. This is a progressive blog and if you vote for McCain you are voting not only against Obama, against Hillary, but are voting for everything we stand against.

I think Hillary and her supporters need to take a good look and find out where there loyalties lie.

These repeated cases, these obstrufactions of truth, the bending of numbers, in an endless series of arguments are not healthy for us.

We have a nominee that will have won by every metric in June, irregardless of whether he reaches the magic number or not. Now we have to accept that. The only question is, what are you going to do about it?

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There is a difference between trying to frame the question in public and then what happens at the trial.

The superdelegate and pledged delegate count shows that Obama is winning the debate with the folks who are actually doing the deciding. Again, until June 3d Hillary is doing nothing wrong. So folks are letting her push the envelope and make a fool of herself in order to respect the process. But soon after 6/3 the party will make sure that Obama has an iron clad majority. We have about 2 weeks left of this mess and then it will be over.

1 week.

Yeah, best for everyone if it's one week. Time enough for her to save some face and leave on a high note, before she completely destroys an legacy that her and her husband may still have.

If she's stronger, why is Obama beating her by almost 20 points in Montana ? And why is he beating her in Colorado and Wisconsin, while she does not ? I believe he could win Montana as well.

She needs to drop out now. I can't even stand to listen to her.

I meant to say Obama is beating McCain in Wisconsin and Colorado.

All evidence suggests that she'd floridly psychotic...

Hillary needs to go to Real Clear Politics and look at all the comparative polls, etc. on one page. This simply is not true. Pullleease!

She's been living in a protective cocoon since Feb. 5th. I thinks she's been replaced with a pod person. This is NOT the woman I voted for. Frankly, I'm finding her down right disgusting lately.

She should be in the White House right now, hanging with Bush and Cheney, acting the way she's acting.

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Actually, Clinton is the candidate most likely to be indicted for $2 million of election fraud stemming from her last Senate race once the November election is over. Hell, Clinton is more Republican than than Ted Stevens.

The funny part is that even if she did manage to steal the nomination then she would lose the general because of how pissed off people would be.

Jorge...I'll agree with you on that.

I also share khodges' and Tena's disgust with the media. There is a mile-wide difference between journalistic impartiality and obsequiousness.

Case: A Clinton strategist came on Bob Schieffer's Sunday Show; said Clinton didn't have to apologize to Obama for hinting at possible harm to him through her remarks about RFK's assassination. Now whatever you may think about this issue, it was apparent that Schieffer thought an apology was due. Schieffer sat there, smirking, shaking his head. But you know what? He never took Wolfson to task. Never bore down on him for his very position. Where's the journalism?

I totally agree with you about "where's the journalism".

The problem is that, once again, the Clintons learned well from the Republicans and have learned to scream "media bias" or "sexism" the minute anyone in the press says anything REMOTELY critical of them. You want to talk about Hillary's disastrously run campaign? Well, then you're a male chauvinist pig or you're a female self-hater. Hillary and her campaign have been disastrous for feminism in this country.

Thank you!!

That's what I've been feeling throughout her campaign, and I wish that issue would come to the forefront.

Women should be embarassed at the way Senator Clinton has played the victim card. She's acted so much like a spoiled cheerleader that didn't get to be Homecoming Queen that I could just vomit.

Younger feminists (like myself) will feel the effects of this race for years. Public perception of female candidates just took a giant leap back.

I think TPM deserves a healthy heaping of blame here. For months of this campaign, their "coverage" consisted of disseminating whatever bullshit talking point came out of the Clinton camp that day. Now they're disseminating the bullshit that she spouts on the campaign trail, a couretesy they have almost never shown Obama.

Plus, whenever a poll inconvenient for Hillary was mentioned, there was always the snide "clarifying remark" that seemed designed to undercut any argument of Obama's strength or Clinton weakness.

I'm not saying you are biased per se, Greg. I just think that, like the media you're supposed to act as a corrective to, you've been seduced into treating all the spin coming out of the Clinton campaign as news. Access doesn't bring insight or truth, my friend, it only ends up in coverage as myopic and biased as the worst offenders in the MSM.

The MSM just doesn't do journalism anymore. Sorry.

Why is she the stronger candidate??

Because she's stronger in Puerto Rico, and history tells us that PR is a key swing Commonwealth. It's a crucial battle ground. It's the General Election in microcosm. It's the hinge on which the door to the White House swings. It's...

Sheez!! For an educated bunch, you Obama folks don't know much.

Hey, read my above post. Fall in line, or get off the convoy. Obama will be nominee. Time for acceptance, you have until November....

I genuflect to the master snark.

That was snark, wasn't it? If it was, I bow to the master...

Maybe she means strong like in body odor or cheap perfume.

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If she's such a strong candidate, how come she lost the primary?

She's too unpredictable to be the candidate. She'll probably make some Gaffe about McCain dying of old age or something and lose the election.

Hillary Clinton: Simply not a good politician.

"You have to ask yourself, who is the stronger candidate?" Clinton said. "And based on every analysis, of every bit of research and every poll that has been taken and every state that a Democrat has to win, I am the stronger candidate against John McCain in the fall."

Indeed.

And Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.

Mission Accomplished.

No one could have foreseen that the levees wouldn't hold in New Orleans.

There is no global warming.

Evolution is a secular humanist myth.

Florida and Michigan are matters of principle.

"Hard-working white voters" are the only ones who count.

All equally delusional.

All equally unfit to be president of the United States.

Clinton is working on old math. She's talking as thought it's May 2007. She's grasping at straws.
http://thinmansblog.blogspot.com/

Liar liar liar liar liar liar liar

Pantsuits on fire!

I believe Hillary is...

...full...

...of...

hot....

um, ... steaming ...

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...roasting...

...bubbling...

...horse...

[drumroll]

...fetid ...

While her credibility has all but evaporated, it continues to amaze that even in this case she is prone to wild exaggeration. No, it's not some but all of the evidence. Every single bit of it.

Pathetic is as pathetic does...

*Chuckle*

Here's how I break this down:

Barack Obama - Is more interested in what's good for America as a whole than he is acquiring power.

Hillary Clinton - Is more interested in acquiring power than doing what's good for America as a whole.

John McCain - Is just the Republicans best hope to retain power using fearmongering (which I'm sure will come about in the form of a Bin Laden vid.) He's a POW, and you can't say anything bad about a POW without some folks screaming that you are unpatriotic. Similar to the UNPATRIOT Act, anything wrapped in a flag is sacred. That's how flag-pins became a issue.

Shrillary lies again!

whoda thunk it?

Pity the Poor Pantsuit Victim!

With this post, TPM has done what the mainstream media does all the time, and I think this is destroying our political system. A lie was posted without qualification or rebuttal; it was posted just as it would be if it were the truth.

That kind of reporting leads to "sniper fire in Bosnia"; when politicians believe nobody will call them on a lie, they lie, and then embellish the lie and expand the lie.

An honest press could restore honesty in politics in one election if they demonstrated lies will be uncovered in the same new cycle as they are first reported.

Applause. Well said.

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Now, this I agree with. I have no problem with them posting these comments, but offering no context for the comments - i.e., demonstrating why they're wrong - might've been a good idea. But Eric has shown a pretty naked bias towards Clinton from the start.

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Eric and Greg,

You are hurting Democrats by continuing to purvey destructive Clinton camapign sour grapes messages about what is wrong with Obama.

I have to question your judgment on newsworthiness. There is already a general election campaign in progress. Obama is running against McCain, and McCain is clearly running against Obama. It seems to me that 90% of the political coverage should now be devoted to that campaign, and that Clinton campaign dead-ending is back page stuff of minimal newsworthiness.

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Dude, every media outlet is picking up these comments. Don't blame TPM.

True, they are. But that again raises a question that I have raised a number of times here in the last week. Namely, wasn't TPM founded at being better than your typical media outlet? If they simply echo the same unvarnished bullshit as other media outlets, why are they here?

TPM is supposed to be better. And it usually is, as in the coverage of the Phil Gramm lobbying snafu this morning. This is TPM EC, which seems to have a more tabloid appeal.

"Everybody else is doing it" didn't work with my parents. "Everybody else is doing it" doesn't make it right.

Eric and Greg - You are hurting Democrats by continuing to purvey destructive Clinton camapign sour grapes messages about what is wrong with Obama.

That's right, the readers of TPM will now follow Saul on the Road to Damascus, will switch over en masse to Clinton,

And they trembling and astonished said, Hillary, what wilt thou have us to do?

Feel the Hillmentum............................

All evidence points to her being a stronger candidate--except for the fact that she couldn't beat this guy in the primaries. Other than that--compelling argument.

Actually, she did win the primaries, it's the caucus states where she didn't win (and yes, there is a difference between the two). This link explains the numbers:

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/05/popular-vote-vs-popular-vote.php

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Considering that caucus and primary state contests are used by the DNC to award delegates and decide on the nominee,

WHAT IS YOUR POINT?

Don't you realize how ridiculous you are making yourself when you spout these disengenuous talking points? If no one should consider caucus results, they should have been eliminated BEFORE this primary season began. Why didn't Hillary bring it up then? Because she thought she was a shoo-in and didn't care. Why didn't Hillary go to the wall over the "disenfranchisement of Florida and Michigan voters when the rules were put out there in the first place? Because she didn't care if they were disenfranchised -- she didn't give a flying f**k because she was sure she would win and she wouldn't need them!

Don't any of you have the ability to be embarassed by the crap that you are spewing? There is no justification for this. You are like little children throwing a tantrum.

Hillary lost. She lost fair and square; she blew the many advantages she had because of her arrogance, but I think even if she had been smarter about running she would have lost. Why? Because she is NOT the best candidate.

It takes a terrifically strong candidate to come out of obscurity and beat a pro who has been laying the groundwork for her run for a decade. He created his own network, and found a way to fund his run without the "usual suspects". By beating Hillary, even when she pulled out all the stops of Rovian nastyness, Obama proved he is the strongest candidate.

I just wonder how much Bill is behind all the Hillary stuff? So Bill – let’s talk. Puh-lease let Hillary step aside with dignity. Okay, fair enough - when she is ready. But don’t make it more difficult than what it should be. There is no “cover up”. Except if we can call your spin since Monica and now the “Hillary working class hero” and “wrap up in June” bull. Back off Bill. You had your chance. No be a good ex-President and go talk to someone who cares. http://angryafrican.net/2008/05/27/bill-just-back-off-will-ya/

Honestly, Hillary is right. The real evidence does say she is the stronger candidate. The numbers were severely skewed in caucus states, which is where Obama got big percentage gains. Hillary did best overall in the primarys (votes of people). And everyone seems to forget that Florida and Michigan ARE actually states, and THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE A DEMOCRACY. Their votes should be counted.

The media wants to paint Obama as the winner, as do these blog sites (proClinton comments often don't make it past moderators).

Obama has paid delegates and superdelegates more money over the years than has Clinton. He claims to not take money from lobbyists or large corporations and this isn't true. He is a master of the game, but he isn't the real deal, as many like to proclaim. The skeletons in his closet will come out before November and it may cost the dems the big one in November, and this would be a real tragedy.

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ipotter -

Regarding your first paragraph:
The primary process doesn't have to be democratic. The parties can choose to select a nominee in any manner they wish, including no elections at all - just party bosses making the decision. Should it be democratic? Sure, I can agree with that.

But, one doesn't get to change the rules in the final 2 minutes of the game because they don't like the way things are going. Obama ran a campaign to win based on winning delegates. If the name of the game were to win the popular vote, he would've had a different strategy for his campaign, and he probably would have more of the popular vote. But we can't know for sure - and that is the issue: how can you base the decision on a metric that the candidates didn't compete on? You can't.

Would it be good for the Democratic Party to give their nomination process a major overhaul next time around? You bet. But changing the criteria for choosing the nominee when the game has essentially run its course, is silliness.

Regarding your second paragraph:
The evidence suggests otherwise. You're making multiple posts supporting Clinton. There are numerous others here who post anti-Obama stuff and launch personal attacks against Obama supporters, and yet they're never blocked or removed from the site.

Regarding your third paragraph:
A.) Politics is a team sport. Those with cash support other team members who don't have cash. Clinton isn't a team player, as we can now all see, and the fact she didn't support other Dems in the party when they were running for office is simply more proof.
B.) Clinton AND the Republicans have been trying to expose Obama's skeletons, and they came up short. If there were anything left, they would've used it by now. To base a judgement of a candidate on the possibility that they may have skeletons yet to be discovered is lunacy. We could judge Hillary by the same measure: she and Bill have not received much scrutiny over the past 8 years, but there are already rumors about Bill's financial dealings (which, by the way, Obama hasn't tried to exploit). And while Bill has been vetted, little is known about Hillary's past - particularly her role in her husband's administration. Recently, we've heard bits like her "f%#@ 'em" response to blue-collar workers in the midwest. What else is there we don't yet know? The Republicans have been prepping for Hillary's run for 8 years - the playbook is ready. Obama is the one they didn't expect. There is a reason the Republicans prefer to go up against Hillary. Any guesses?

An academic did an analysis to see if this was right, but found, surprisingly, that the caucus process actually hurt Obama--he would have done very well in those states and the gap in the popular vote would have been further apart.

http://www.dcourage.com/a/2008/04/new_study_shows_obama_would_ha.php

Another point--this issue of money going to superdelegates. This is utterly absurd. It's not money going to superdelegates; it's money going to the campaigns of Dems in the house and senate. Every candidate donates money to his or her fellows. Hillary was criticized in '06 for spending so much money on her Senatorial campaign when her victory was assured, and not sharing much with others who needed it more. I believe John Kerry was criticized for not giving much as well. It is not a badge of honor for Hillary that she's not giving as much money to help other Dems get elected, and it's not a good idea to pretend it is. Obama's donations to the campaigns of others in the party shows his commitment to party-building. If he somehow knew superdelegates were going to decide this thing, then he is psychic and should be president.

also, if you think there's any moderation going on here, you're not reading the pro-Clinton comments.


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Hmmm... ALL the evidence?

The evidence shows Obama has run a better organized campaign with a better strategy.

The evidence shows Obama can raise far more cash for his campaign than Hillary can.

The evidence shows national polls with OBAMA in the lead.

Anyone else like to add to the list?

It's become a vicious circle:

I'm the stronger candidate! I'm the stronger candidate!

Okay. We've heard you. Enough already.

What do you mean, enough already? There are people who want me to quit, but I'm going all the way. I'm the stronger candidate!

Fine. Do you think maybe you could concentrate on policy issues rather than continuing the mantra that you're stronger? You know, kind of raise the dialog?

Oh, some people want me to stop with my message, but I'm speaking for the people that really matter.

But all you're doing is talking about yourself. Don't you get it by now, it's not about you.

I'm the stronger candidate!

Nevermind.

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