Garin: Our Polling Shows "Gas Tax Holiday" Is Helping Hillary Politically
Is Hillary gaining politically by her support for a so-called "gas tax holiday"?
On a conference call with reporters just now, Hillary chief strategist Geoff Garin claimed that the campaign's internal polling shows that it is.
"We're seeing in our polling that working people appreciate the fact that Senator Clinton understands the incredible economic strain they are facing," Garin said.
Also, Garin sought to spin one of the main arguments against the gas tax holiday -- the fact that it saves consumers a negligible amount on average -- as a further sign that Hillary's in touch with blue-collar workers.
"It may not seem like a lot to some people," Garin said, adding that "every penny counts."
The fact that Hillary supports the gas tax holiday because she understands that the meager average savings involved do matter to ordinary folks is likely to be core Hillary spin as the gas tax argument continues to unfold.
As for Garin's assertion that this dispute is helping her politically, we haven't seen this polled publicly yet, and it'll certainly be interesting to see what future polls show on this.















Let's label this plan properly. It's the McCain-Clinton gas tax holiday.
Or a giant cynical panderfest of a plan.
May 1, 2008 12:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
McCain-Clinton '08!!!
Pandering you cannot believe in
May 1, 2008 12:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Garin: Lying To Uninformed People Is Helping Hillary Politically
Now, if only the media would do their job and INFORM the public rather than repeat talking points, there would be fewer uninformed people that are fooled by the bullshit.
May 1, 2008 1:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hillary's Gas Tax Holiday?
[photo credit to eb78 at Flickr / 2007-some rights reserved]
May 1, 2008 4:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
If it is true that this mindless promise which will never be delivered upon (and we'll be better off for that!)sways voters because she "feels their pain," then we may as well kiss this planet good-bye.
Thanks for the leadership McHillary.
May 1, 2008 12:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
goodjob hillary...we all trust you...
May 1, 2008 12:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
We all trust her to pander shamelessly.
May 1, 2008 12:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
We all trust her to *lie* shamelessly. This isn't pandering, it's lying. There is no benefit to the consumer and there is no benefit to the country.
May 1, 2008 12:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're joking right? Show me one outside source that says this is a good idea. One. Just one.
May 1, 2008 12:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
of course, no experts agree, only McCain.
McCain and Clinton. There you go.
May 1, 2008 12:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am a university administrations employee making relatively little money (i.e. I'm far more 'working class' than 'middle class'). Especially after student loans, bills, and rent is deducted, I'm not left with, shall we say, 'house-buying money'.
That said, this so-called "gas tax holiday" would save me $36 over three months (I calculated). That's about 1/5 a bag of groceries per month. Really, I'm not being phenomenally helped.
Perhaps I'll make a $36 donation to the Obama campaign as a statement. What say all of you?
May 1, 2008 12:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Excellent suggestion. I'm in!
May 1, 2008 12:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Go for it!
I already tossed in $25.00 today.
Not that I think the gas tax will save me that much, because it won't. The prices will drop, if it goes into effect, (which it won't, of course, because Congress isn't going to enact anything like that, but let's continue on in fantasy land nonetheless) but demand will rise, and prices will rise again.
So there you have it: the consumer doesn't really benefit at all, we consume more gas, putting us more in oil-debt, and the government loses all of that revenue.
Heckuva plan, Hillary and John!
May 1, 2008 12:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Please donate, but also please understand you would not get anywhere like $30 back. That's a fiction, that just shows you how little a percent of the total gas price is made of taxes (very small amount). More important, process will not fall , by the amount of the tax eliminated, not even close, and in the process you will be encouraged to drive more and emit more carbon, etc...
May 1, 2008 12:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry CT, good explanation.
May 1, 2008 12:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Um, except that it won't actual decrease fuel prices - the oil companies, the refineries and the service station will be happy to pocket that $.18 instead as a public service. Furthermore, by providing the consumer with the illusion that they're "saving" money on gas, it will drive up consumption, increasing demand and driving prices up. Hilariously, the most likely impact on fuel prices of a "gax-tax holiday" is increased gas prices.
The only real way to lower the cost of fuel in the short term would be to address the dollar crisis created by Bernanke's reckless driving of monetary policy.
May 1, 2008 1:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Exactly. I don't know how it is in your neck of the woods, but around here there was a 20-cent jump in gas prices in the past week. Whoops, there goes that saving. That and the fact it'd never get out of Congress.
Not sure why that isn't the angle of attack on this issue. That 18-cents will be gobbled up happily by the oil companies.
May 1, 2008 2:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Dumb ideas that dumb people like ARE EXCELLENT NEWS!! FOR HILLARY!!!
May 1, 2008 12:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hillary campaign internal poll question:
Are you in favor of lower gas prices?
See, everyone likes a break on the gas tax!
May 1, 2008 12:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Grats on the successful pander.
Oh yeah, and chalk up another Obama superdelegate, Texas DNC member John Patrick:
http://thepage.time.com/obama-release-on-texas-superdelegate-endorsement/
May 1, 2008 12:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
""We're seeing in our polling that working people appreciate the fact that Senator Clinton understands the incredible economic strain they are facing," Garin said."
Too bad she doesn't understand Economics 101.
She's good at lying and cheating though. Got to give credit where credit is due.
(Remember Bill infamously executed a mentally impaired guy on the eve of an important primary back in the day - do whatever it takes, right)
May 1, 2008 12:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
And is it REALLY a good idea to elect a President without even a rudimentary understanding of basic economics, considering our economy is ALREADY in the shitter?
May 1, 2008 12:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Econ 101? Most Americans haven't even taken Econ 101, let alone understand it. It's just a boilerplate response by an idiot dittohead to a question about real economics. There is no payoff in appealing to economic principles when a dripping slab of red meat like gas tax holidays will do. Pointing out that this particular slab of red meat is just a plastic fish lure with no actual nutritional value will only get you blank stares.
May 1, 2008 12:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Excuse me, that came out wrong. I am not calling anyone here a idiot dittohead, just that they like to use "Econ 101" as a buzzword to the point where using that phrase for anything substantial tends to lessen the statement's effectiveness.
May 1, 2008 12:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
You are right, It is hard to explain the economics succintly in a way everyone understands. But it is easy to say that every single reasonable expert out there, republican or democratic says this is a boneheaded policy that will actually do more harm than good (and Mccain's is even more boneheaded and harmful than Clinton's).
And it is easy to say that pandering for short-term political gain--as the Clinton's are famous for--will not solve our problems.
The point is only partly about the policy. The real argument is to feed the suspicion that Mrs. Clinton is inauthentic and will say anything for your vote, while Obama will tell you the truth, even if it is tough to hear. After 8 years of GWB almost everyone gets why that matters.
May 1, 2008 12:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Amen! The summer is absolutely the worst time to cut the gas tax: all our refinery capacity is running maxed out then anyhow, and the problem is that since the supply is essentially fixed, the price will rise to push demand down.
It's not (directly) gouging by oil companies; they simply can't bring more supply to market, so to prevent shortages and stations running out of gas, they raise prices to reduce demand. So instead of lowering prices, the net effect will be the tax going from the government to oil companies or retailers.
At least Hillary plans to "offset" this by taxing the "windfall" profits of the oil companies, so that the effect is close to revenue neutral. McCain's proposal is a giveaway to oil companies in the guise of populist tax relief.
May 1, 2008 3:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Steaming Pile--I love your moniker and your avatar. The combination made me burst out laughing. Can you photoshop to get steam coming out of his ears?
May 1, 2008 1:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
The very worst thing about this pander is that nobody -- I mean NOBODY -- is discussing the administrative costs (to the government and to the gas stations) that would be incurred when turning off this tax nationwide and then turning it back on again three months later.
Those costs alone will add to the debt far more than everyone combined will save in 90 days. It's a freaking idiotic pander, and possibly the most disgraceful move of the Clinton campaign.
Its something she wouldn't dare propose if it had any hope of being enacted.
May 1, 2008 1:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
this thing is over. the adults have decided the charade has gone on long enough. hillary can win both NC and Indiana and it won't amount to a hill of beans.
obama passed his last test. the powers that be are satisfied he isn't going to implode. they like his judgement and they know the gas tax holiday is a crock and so are discounting anything positive for hillary as result.
she failed the leadership test that would have given the SD's cover to suport her. She has failed it repeatedly and that is why no matter what happens now, the race is over.
May 1, 2008 12:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
shouldnt it be called a "gas tax holiday from reality"?
aren't we sick of a president who forces the citizenry to make huge financial sacrifices in the long-term for non-existent short-term benefits, i.e. pennies?
im sorry but saying that $2.00 a week helps the working class is the height of condescension.
hillary won't be the nominee.
May 1, 2008 12:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
gas tax holiday is stupid pandering.
if you want to waste $10b why not buy everyone a free tuneup. that could be a more effective way to make the fleet more efficient and hence lower the price of gas.
May 1, 2008 12:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
So, the spin from the Clinton camp is that they know it is dumb, but it is helping them politically. What testicular fortitude!
May 1, 2008 12:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Obama on the gas tax gets fact checked by the AP. Obama voted three times for a tax holiday in 2000, joking "that he wanted signs on gas pumps telling motorists that he was responsible for lowering prices." But Obama does convince Andrews that his new stance deserves his super delegate vote in Indiana."
Flip flop but run him anyway.
You deserve mcwar.
May 1, 2008 12:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
I know this is silly to reply, but Obama ADMITS that he did this, that it turned out to be a mistake and he has learned from it. Contrast this to Sen. Clinton's AUMF vs. Kyl-Lieberman experience.
'Nuf said?
May 1, 2008 12:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Exactly. God, a politician who learns from their mistakes and changes their mind as new information comes along? Good God, what is the world coming to.
And a side note, to Gotalife, since he has such a problem with "flip-flopping".
May 1, 2008 12:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
good catch
May 1, 2008 12:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
You mean he was for it before he was against it.
Sound familiar?
People never learn and will lose three in a row if you run Obama.
May 1, 2008 1:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
So is it better to be against and then be for it? Especially when you were right the first time?
May 1, 2008 1:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
"People never learn and will lose three in a row if you run Obama."
"if you run Obama"? Don't you mean "if WE run Obama". The slip tells me you are a GOP operative trolling this site pretending to be for Billary.
May 1, 2008 3:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Or more like learning from experience. They tried it in IL in 2000, and it didn't help. Why try it again and expect the results to be different? Of course, for a Republican troll like yourself, "Stay the Course," even in the face of pesky FACTS, is ALWAYS an excellent Plan of Action.
May 1, 2008 12:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Dipshit, he actually learned that what they did in Illinois didn't make a difference to consumers and wasn't worth the cost. It's why he opposed making it permanent in 2000, and why he is correctly against it now.
Being for a bad idea until you learn that it is not a good idea is called learning.
Being against a bad idea for the right reasons and then being for it because you think it scores political points (as Mrs. Clinton did) is called cynical manipulation.
May 1, 2008 12:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, we all know who you voted for in 2004 then, gotalife. You'd rather someone who steadfastly supports a mistake than someone who decides, based on experience, to end that mistake.
May 1, 2008 12:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Another Super for Obama.
via Ben Smith:
A Texas super for Obama
An AFL-CIO official, John Patrick, endorses the senator.
Release after the jump.
TEXAS SUPERDELEGATE ENDORSES BARACK OBAMA
31 year member of the United Steelworkers, DNC Member John Patrick Backs Obama
May 1, 2008 12:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Is that 5 today?!
May 1, 2008 12:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
yup
May 1, 2008 12:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
5 to 0.
15 to go!
May 1, 2008 12:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
And when FL and MI get counted as is, and they will, Clinton will have a gain of over 100.
The delegate count is irrelevant as I've said repeatedly for a long time.
No one is getting 2025 pledged. This will be a brokered convention based on new rules that will be introduced at the convention when delegate voting fails repeatedly to award the nomination.
So go on counting while Obama sinks into a hole. He's swimming upstream with a waterfall behind him and he's getting very, very tired. Over-the-falls by convention time.
May 1, 2008 1:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama will get 2025.
He'll have around 1700 pledged delegates once the primaries are over. Add on his ~250 SDs he currently has and he's at 1950. All he needs is roughly another 75 SDs to get him to 2025.
May 1, 2008 1:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
He won't get 2025 pledged delegates, but 2025 is 2025.
May 1, 2008 1:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, it seems Hillary Clinton has figured out the thing Republicans have known for decades, which is that Americans are really farking stupid and they generally behave like dogs when you wave a Milk Bone in front of them. They'll fall for shit like this time after time.
May 1, 2008 12:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hillary pandering? Hillary going along to get along with the right? Never! The Clinton campaign treating voters as cynical dupes? Say it ain't so!
In her cold, dark heart, Mrs. Policy Wonk knows this is a short-sighted and nonsensical proposal, but why allow good policy to get in the way of scoring cheap political points?
May 1, 2008 12:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
This issue may have tipped already, thanks to Joe Andrew. As we all know, in reality Indiana and North Carolina are of little consequence. It's all about the supers now. And they see Obama taking a principled stand - the right stand - on this issue even when it may be to his severe political detriment to do so.
That is what you call leadership...and Obama has more of it in his left thumb than Hillary could ever dream of having.
May 1, 2008 12:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
This a huge issue for Obama and he should be pushing even more after Garin's comments. It's about policy, yes, but it is really about *character*.
This is THE perfect example of running your campaign based on the reaction it gets in polling rather than what it will really do for people.
In fact, this proposal not only does not really help people but it is also counterproductive. yes it hurts the country, by discouraging conservation, by diverting resources from highway funds.
If you need more convincing:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/30/AR2008043003575_2.html?sid=ST2008050100090
Garin is saying, "It doesn't matter if we help people, just as long as they think we will." If you really think $30 bucks over 3months is worth the damage the policy does (and that is the best case of what it is worth), then why not just add $30 to everyone's stimulus check getting mailed this week, huh?
There is no excuse for a policy every expert says is moronic at best, and more likely counter productive. There is even less of an excuse for pandering and lying to the public.
May 1, 2008 12:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, it might well be that it's boosting her polling numbers. But it cost her the support of Joe Andrews who specifically cited this latest lowball tactic of hers as the tipping point in his decision.
And that would be a kind of true justice. There's been a horrible irony in her getting credit for being on the side of the working class when she's proposing a policy that shows she really only cares about getting the vote of the working class (since the proposal does nothing to actually help them.) Obama's willingness to sacrifice their votes in order to stay true to principles that will ultimately help them stands in stark contrast. Good on Andrews for rewarding political virtue.
May 1, 2008 12:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
The pandering on the gas tax is yet another Exhibit A as to why most supers are sick of the Clintons and are flocking to Obama.
May 1, 2008 12:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is a great example of the cynical opportunism of the Clinton campaign. They don't care that this proposal flies in the face of reaspm, honesty, and Hillary's own previously-stated positions on the environment and the economy. It's gonna get them a few votes with the SUV driving gas hog set that helped to get us into this mess in the first place, so what the hell, right? In the meantime, Obama is sticking to the truth and to what's best for America over the long term.
Next we'll see Hillary handing out twenty dollar bills at campaign events. Whatever it takes...
May 1, 2008 12:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think you mean 20 dollar IOUs.
May 1, 2008 2:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
Clinton's "gas tax holiday", which, lacking any concrete Senate proposal, is "just words", is completely wrong-headed.
The net savings for consumers would be $0.00
Clinton proposes substituting the federal gas tax with a windfall profit tax. If the windfall tax were to be calculated to make up he lost revenue completely, there'd be zero net change in the taxes that were passed along to consumers. If the windfall tax brought in more revenue, gas prices might actually rise.
This is nothing more than political pandering, and from what Garrin says, I guess it's working.
May 1, 2008 12:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Serious question:
For this to take effect, she has to write legislation, get it passed by both houses, including the sixty-vote wall that used to be called a filibuster, and get it signed by Bush, no?
Has she written the legislation? We all know this is a fantasy and demagoguery of the Clintonest order, but is she even going through the motions beyond telling people what they want to hear?
May 1, 2008 12:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
well, she might be able to overcome the filibuster in this case since there's no daylight between hillary and mcCain on this particular pander.
May 1, 2008 12:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
not if she includes the windfall profits tax
though god knows she's enough of a panderer to separate the two so she can take credit for 'fighting for people like you'
May 1, 2008 1:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
ANOTHER Superdel for Obama (from Texas):
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0508/A_Texas_super_for_Obama.html
May 1, 2008 12:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Where's Paul Tsongas and his Pander Bear when you need him?
May 1, 2008 12:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
He's dead.
May 1, 2008 1:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
By the way, Greg, thanks for the sycophantic spin:
Let's try a little more truthiness, shall we?
The claim that Hillary supports the gas tax holiday because she understands ordinary folks is laughable at best.
See? Better.
May 1, 2008 12:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hear, Hear.
May 1, 2008 1:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hmmm, well, let us try to figure out what Hillary's next pander will be, yes?
So we have to start with a problem: The high price of gas.
Next we have to make a solemn promise to the voters that will never be fullfilled (think bringing 200,000 jobs to upstate New York (actuall resulsts: a loss of 30,000 jobs.)) I got it, she can promise to invent cars that run on rainbows and puppy kisses! This will save everybody tons of money!
Sure, it is impossible, it will never happen, it is a lie, but who cares? It will help Hillary's poll numbers, and that is all that matters.
Hillary will say or do anything to get ellected.
May 1, 2008 12:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Speaking of spin, Michelle and Barack are busy telling us today that we the American people are tired of hearing about Jeremiah Wright. I think they should speak for themselves and their supporters.
May 1, 2008 12:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Clinton's gas tax holiday plan is horrible policy and hollow pandering."
"I uh, er, uh...look over there! Scary black preacher!"
Good rebuttal.
May 1, 2008 12:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Otto's comments, for the last 48 hours, could be summarized as:
WRIGHT WRIGHT WRIGHT WRIGHT WRIGHT!!!!!!
May 1, 2008 12:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm sure tired of it. Everyone knows about Rev Wright. I'd sure like to hear Hillary explain all the campaign contributions she recieved from Mark Rich around the time he got pardoned. Or I'd like to hear about what Hillary thinks of the massive payments members of her family recieved for brokering pardons.
Obama won't go there, but somebody should.
May 1, 2008 12:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
My junior senator is insane as well as an opportunist. Her own Democratic supporters in NY State have rejected this.
"Democratic Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver said the "Republicans are trying to hide from the failures of the Bush administration. I believe that oil companies will simply raise their prices to eliminate any cost savings," Silver said. He said the Republicans should call the Bush administration and demand action to solve the problem."
Clinton is willing to allow wrecked roads and bridges and throw 300,000 road workers out of work for a damagogue's issue. Shame on this fraudster!
May 1, 2008 12:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
You know that's bullshit. Illinois' gas tax is based on a percentage, and fuel prices had risen, so they lowered the percentage.
May 1, 2008 12:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
You know what? I'm sure it is helping them politically.
Let's just have no illusions about who this person is: a cynic who will sell out principle for points
May 1, 2008 12:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
This gas plan is a joke, an a pander of Clintonian shamelessness.
Of course it's working, though. She knows her audience.
But this is the key quote from Joe Andrews, former chair of the DNC, on why he's switching from Clinton to Obama.
"In a lengthy letter explaining his decision, Andrew said he is switching his support because "a vote for Hillary Clinton is a vote to continue this process, and a vote to continue this process is a vote that assists (Republican) John McCain."
...
" Andrew said the Obama campaign never asked him to switch his support, but he decided to do so after watching Obama's handling of two issues in recent days. He said Obama took the principled stand in opposing a summer gas tax holiday that both Clinton and McCain supported, even though it would have been easier politically to back it. And he said he was impressed with Obama's handling of the controversy surrounding his former pastor, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright.
Wright's outspoken criticisms of the United States have threatened Obama's candidacy. Obama initially refused to denounce his former pastor, but he did so this week after Wright suggested that Obama secretly agrees with him.
"He has shown such mettle under fire," Andrew said in the interview. "The Jeremiah Wright controversy just reconfirmed for me, just as the gas tax controversy confirmed for me, that he is the right candidate for our party."
This is the central question: who is the right person to lead the country, a serial liar and panderer who will manipulate and lie and do whatever it takes to win, or a principled and intelligent leader who calls us to do something better.
There's really no doubt in my mind who answers this question: Obama.
May 1, 2008 12:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Indiana Plant Closing story that Hillary has been LYING about to be an ABC News story tonight.
The story will expose Clinton's lies about the Indiana factory shipped over to China not by Bush, by Billy boy.
Liar. Liar. Sniper Fire.
May 1, 2008 12:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Link: http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Vote2008/story?id=4757257&page=1
May 1, 2008 12:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Point, point, clap, clap, nod, nod.
And now "pump, pump"
May 1, 2008 2:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't know how many TPM readers drive, but a gas tax suspension is a big deal in 'small town America'. Clinton and McCain call for suspending the tax - 18.4 cents a gallon on gasoline and 24.4 cents a gallon on diesel - is concrete action to help slow down everyone's costs. For myself, it means a savings over about $27.50 each month. Our gas yesterday was $3.89 for unleaded. Every penny counts.
And what about the savings on diesel? This is what our transportation industry relies upon to deliver food around the country. This is a big savings which will help slow down the rising cost of food delivered to our stores.
That Obama dismisses this as pandering says he does not get the plight of Americans. Talk of the future sounds good but it does nothing to help today.
Matthew
May 1, 2008 12:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama's plan is do nothing.
Big oil is getting their money's worth from Obama.
He voted yes on cheney's energy bill the oil companies wrote.
Clinton voted no.
All talk no action.
A sure loser in the general.
May 1, 2008 12:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
You fill up your car 10 times a month?!
May 1, 2008 12:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, I drive around 800 miles each week. I did not even include our second car which gets driven 25-50 miles. This is part of living in small town America. But also, having lived 14 years in northern Virginia with 30-90 minute commutes, the miles also added up. For those that do not drive or have the benefit of living in/around Manhattan, I suspect the mileage and gallons of gas people use is a difficult concept to grasp. There is no real public transportation options outside of the bigger metro areas in the country.
Matthew
May 1, 2008 12:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
You don't need to talk to me about crappy public transportation. I live in Milwaukee.
The point is you won't see any savings. If the tax is suspended, the price will drop, as a result demand will go up and then the price will go back up.
May 1, 2008 1:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
MKE PT: so. freaking. true.
they're not still going on about how the Connector is going to the save the world, are they?
May 1, 2008 1:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Right. It is a pander because 1) it is not going to happen by May 31 2) it will only push up the demand on gas and raise its prices 3) it is a short-term solution to a long term problem (like, hey, here's a band-aid for that cancer) and 4) neither Clinton nor McCain have the power to bring this about for summer 2008 - they're candidates not presidents. Stupid pandering.
May 1, 2008 1:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
I helps the truck drivers too.
Man, do they need a break but it will not come from Obama.
May 1, 2008 12:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
American Truck Association's statement:
Emphasis mine.
May 1, 2008 1:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Using your own math you must be burning through 150 gallons of gas a month, so either you're doing a hell of a lot of driving or you're doing it in a Winnebago. Either way that big savings amounts to 5% of your total cost. Big deal. You'd realize the same savings by consuming 7.5 fewer gallons.
May 1, 2008 12:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
No, I get that all of you "real Americans" like money. I get it. I also like getting handed money for no reason, even meager sums of money.
"Talk of the future sounds good but it does nothing to help today." Well, talk of today sounds good too but it does nothing to help the future. In fact, it could end up leading to price increase in the long term. We shouldn't be giving people cash incentives to use more gas. This gas tax holiday is just a short-sighted attempt to drum up votes for a few bucks.
May 1, 2008 1:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Matthew, we can all hope for your children's sake that you are not as big an idiot as your post implies. In your addled mind, it's just an argument from Obama that this won't help when in fact it is everyone who knows anything about anything telling you this.
Every frickin's expert out there is telling us and you that eliminating the tax will not lower prices. Not by anywhere near .18 per gallon. More likely my 0.00. This is not a political argument, its a policy argument and people who actually understand the policy whether they support Clinton or McCain or anybody else will tell you this is a bad policy and will not save you money.
So i ask you this, why are you in favor of giving oil companies 18 cents more per gallon every time you fill up whatever you are driving?
Also you drive 300 miles a month, really? Maybe you should get a much more fuel efficient car dude. Your kids need diapers.
May 1, 2008 1:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
whoops 3000 miles.
So what kind of car do you drive?
May 1, 2008 1:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Honda CRV at 25-30 MPG and Volvo XC70 at 23-25 MPG. I tend to use the Honda for the longer driving. And the total is over 3,500 miles each month and I know many people with similar and some with even more miles. Again, this is the reality of living in small town America.
And hybrids do not offer benefit for highway driving. We've done the math.
Matthew
May 1, 2008 1:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
Isn't "Volvo driving" one of those elitist tag lines used against Obama supporters? As in "latte-drinking, Volvo-driving, book-reading elitists."
May 1, 2008 1:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Seriously dude,
Get yourself a Volkswagen Jetta TDi. It's a diesel wagon that gets in the 40-50 mpg range. New, they are in the $20K range. Used, have to be much less. Any model year 2004 and after.
That and slow down: "As a rule of thumb, you can assume that each 5 mph you drive over 60 mph is like paying an additional $0.20 per gallon for gas."
Did you get that? driving 60 instead of 70 will save you twice as much as fantasy discount you think you would get from HIllary.
here a good website on saving gas.:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/driveHabits.shtml
May 1, 2008 1:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wake up and smell reality. You lower the tax, you drive up demand, and guess what, there's no supply, so guess what again, genius? Prices go back up. So the Feds give up $10billion in tax revenue so we can watch the price drop for a fe weeks and then go right back to where it was before the tax break. Brilliant.
And yes, I drive to work, and live in the suburbs. Our family budget has been stretched to the limit this year by fuel and food costs, and a silly little tax holiday won't change that.
It is pandering, plain and simple.
May 1, 2008 1:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
You act like you'll actually see an 18.4 cent per gallon reduction in the price of gas.
You won't. No one will. You might see a very brief initial reduction in price, but as demand rises through the summer, prices will climb right up over that 18.4 cents. It's the oil companies that will see most of the benefit from this tax reduction.
Supply. Demand. Elasticity. Economics 101. Greed. Add it all up, and the gas tax holiday does nothing useful in the short run, and in the long run, it puts our infrastructure at risk and delays any real solutions and energy policy.
May 1, 2008 1:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
"That Obama dismisses this as pandering says he does not get the plight of Americans."
No. That Clinton supports it says she thinks Americans are a bunch of fools. A windfall tax on the oil companies? When Bush and Cheney are in charge?
It. Will. Never. Be. Passed.
She knows that perfectly well. And she talks it up anyway. That is the definition of pandering.
May 1, 2008 3:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm calling on all Clinton supporters to find me ONE outside source that says this is a good idea. One. Just one. Or, admit the idea is the wrong one.
May 1, 2008 12:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
You don't get it. It is a good idea because it helps her at the polls. It will never happen, she has no intention of making it happen. She just wants to, what is the word, pander.
May 1, 2008 12:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'll offer myself as a source and a benefactor of the savings (as I've just detailed in posts. This is a savings to drivers all over the country. Any driver can offer you the benefit of this. Even if only pennies for some, it is still concrete and visible action by government. Obama can dismiss this as pandering and talk about future plans but that is the problem, he doesn't get it that people want action today and want to see results, however small today. The boon for a candidate that can show real action--bipartisan since both Clinton and McCain support it. That they differ on how to pay for it is small print that people won't worry about since they have no input and will not see impact on how paid in the near term.
If you are looking for an economist or other academic to endorse the plan, then you are missing the point and over analyzing the savings. It is political and direct action to voters who drive. It offers credibility that these candidates and politicians understand small town America, which Obama is further confirming he does not.
Matthew
May 1, 2008 1:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Concrete and visible action by the government"....Now that's funny. Just don't forget to cash your tax rebate check on the way your Repub Town Committee meeting.
May 1, 2008 1:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
You are not what I'd call "mpartial." Sorry.
May 1, 2008 1:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
er...impartial.
May 1, 2008 1:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Mathew: "I will get $30 dollars back."
Everybody (on a bi-partisan basis)who knows shit from shinola: "No, actually you will not get anywhere near that amount if anything and you will get eh exact wrong message form rising prices which is to conserve, not ask for a handout."
So you see, you are living in a fantasy that you will get something back. You are living in a fantasy that not stepping up your conservation will save you much more money and be more helpful to the environment. Will it make you feel better if I give you a unicorn?
As for the funding mechanism: McCain just robs the Highway trust fund-that's stupid. Mrs. Clinton replaces the highway funds with a direct tax on oil company profits which is one more reason why they will raise prices or restrict supply. Either way you will not save any money, and it may well cost you.
May 1, 2008 1:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama knows as well as I that in small town America a gas tax holiday isn't going to matter. I mean come on, those people don't drive, the only time they even saw one of them futuristic autocoaches was down at the County Fair....now if he were to propose a tax break on horseshoes, that might resonate with the "small town folk".
May 1, 2008 1:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
No, it's exactly the fucking point. The government could cut us all five hundred dollar checks right now or slash some other tax and we'd enjoy it. But the plan isn't automatically vindicated because we're getting money. Dismissing expert opinion on the long-term ramifications (and lack of short term benefits) is just anti-intellectualism driven by your own partisanship.
No, it's cheap political points. They give you thirty bucks, you say "boy, he sure understands us working folks" and you vote for them in the primary/general election. The only thing it demonstrates of their "understanding" is that average people like short-term solutions - however, the government is the force that's in place to oversee long term, prudent plans. They realize handing you money right now is more convincing than appealing to people's intelligence.
May 1, 2008 1:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Except it is not a real $30 bucks. That's the point. Not that it is buying votes on the cheap , it is buying votes from a totally empty promise, that we all know before hand is empty
Oh, and people are dying right this second because of totally empty promises.
May 1, 2008 1:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry Matthew, but no, you don't get to count yourself as an outside source. I am looking for an economist or academic to agree with it. Surely, with the thousands that are out there, there must be one who thinks it's a good idea if it is?
While I understand your point, and would certainly like to save a couple bucks, here's the problem: We won't. For one, it's never going to happen. Senator Clinton knows that. She knows there is going to be no windfall tax on the oil companies while Bush is in office. So when it fails, she can lay the blame on Bush and act like Obama wasn't doing anything to help out "the little people", and it's win-win for her. Secondly, driving the price of gas down with this type of effort leads to increased demand and lowered supply. Basic economics. Therefore, we'll either be waiting in line for gas all summer, or the prices will rise anyway to meet the equilibrium point of supply and demand.
Again, if you can find me one economist or academic who agrees with Clinton, I'll grant you the point. You can pretend I'm missing the point, but it's a cop-out because you know you won't find one. You can support Clinton and think this is a bad idea.
May 1, 2008 1:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
May 1, 2008 12:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Shorter Geoff Garin: Our polling tells us what we want to hear.
May 1, 2008 12:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wolfson: โThe presidency requires leadershipโฆ There are times when the president does something that the group of experts, quote unquote, does not agree with.โ
Hillary is now playing out of Bush's presidential tactics book. Swell!
May 1, 2008 12:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Let's add in how Hillary attempts to fund this holiday; With a windfall Profit tax on the oil companies.
I'm quite certain that these companies aren't going to absorb that additional tax. They are going to raise prices. In the end, we will all be paying more for a gallon of gas.
May 1, 2008 12:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
And the idiot in chief will undoubtedly sign it first thing tomorrow.
May 1, 2008 12:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
DING DING DING! Ladies and gentlemen, give JohnDoe the prize for cutting through the BS in the shortest possible manner.
May 1, 2008 1:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
I love this Gas Tax Holiday issue because it makes it incredibly easy to distinguish between the honest Hillary supporters and the Republican trolls. It's a terrible idea. Period. You can't find one economist who thinks it's a good idea. It was bad when Dole proposed it. Bad when McCain re-introduced it. And just as bad now that Hillary has jumped on board.
And to see some Hillary supporters applaud the idea just makes our life that much easier, because it saves us the time of trying to figure out if someone is full of shit or not.
May 1, 2008 12:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Excellent point.
Otto, MatthewWeaver, and gotalife are defending this indefensible plan.
Otto, MatthewWeaver and gotalife = Republican trolls.
May 1, 2008 12:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Lots of Republican's think it's a stupid idea too.
May 1, 2008 1:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah. I guess it just makes it easier to separate the intelligent from the stupid.
May 1, 2008 1:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Breaking:
Hillary Clinton proposes tax holiday on Band-Aids to stop the suffering of Gun Shot Victims
May 1, 2008 12:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
Breaking: Hillary proposes 4-day weeks and no more homework!
May 1, 2008 12:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Do you understand supply and demand? Every economist that has weighed in on this has called it a bad idea.
May 1, 2008 12:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
This was for Weaver
May 1, 2008 1:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
of course its helping her politically. thats what shameless pandering does.
May 1, 2008 12:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
From Politico just now on what Obama has done to Clinton in this campaign, but could:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0508/10010.html
Vetted, my ass.
May 1, 2008 1:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
All these polls end on Monday or Tuesday, meaning before Obama shut off the Wright flap and while the gas-tax stuff really got scrutiny.
Like Greg said, it will be interesting to see what future polls show.
May 1, 2008 1:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Here's the difference: The tax "vacation" itself is a stupid idea that will only hurt road repairs in the short term and voters in the long term.
But the tax vacation proposal is another thing altogether. If that helps HRC at the polls, then for her it's a success. Buying votes at $20-30 each is a pretty sweet deal for her, especially if the bill doesn't pass. In that case, it's buying votes with promises $20-30.
May 1, 2008 1:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
The Clintons in a nutshell -- it doesn't matter if it's bad policy; if it polls well, we'll push it.
Exactly why it would be a disaster for the Democratic Party if they wormed their way back into the White House.
May 1, 2008 1:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hillary the Pander Bear
starring in
The Great Gas Tax Hoax
May 1, 2008 1:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Meh, both Gallup and Rasmussen show a big drop for Obama today. I think it is still fallout from the Wright flap as I think these things usually take a few days to penetrate the collective conciousness. I am confident that he will be able to ride this out but NC & IN are a worry and I wish he would be more aggressive. I will give HRC chops for that - she is aggressive and has um, testicular fortitude.
May 1, 2008 1:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
1. The proposals shifts the equivalent tax burden to the oil companies.
2. It puts about $5 BILLION back into the pockets of the people and so, into the economy. During a recession that is a helpful stimulus.
Environmentally I agree it is not a good idea. But it limited to the summer only and the impact will be negligible in comparison to what is going on in China regarding greenhouse emissions.
You can spin it as pandering or as helpful to Americans during a rough patch. I prefer the second spin. I'm not sure it is wise to accept economists views. Many of these so called expert's advice got us into the economic mess we're in right now.
Many of you have said the price should be increased to create a disincentive. I'd love to hear Obama propose that.
May 1, 2008 1:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, and we know the oil comanies would never, ever, pass their burden back onto the consumer.
May 1, 2008 1:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
lets say you're right.
so gas prices drop by 18 cents a gallon. you know what will happen? demand will increase. Supply will stay the same.
When demand goes up and supply doesn't, that means PRICES RISE.
So you potentially have that 18 cents being negated because of the simple economics of Supply and Demand.
This is bad policy. Plain and simple. And it won't save anybody any meaningful and it certainly won't solve the problem.
May 1, 2008 1:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
I would love to hear Obama propose that, but I am not holding my breath. Just like I am not holding my breath waiting for the money that this absurd nonsense will supposedly put back in my pocket. It is not even going to be pennies. There will be no savings to the consumer as a result of this nonsense. Attempting to lower the price of gas at the time of peak demand by dropping the tax is like trying to fill a half-full swimming pool by drawing buckets from the deep end and pouring them into the shallow end. It is a completely waste of time.
I can understand why republicans would like to make this election about nonsense and trivia like Wright and flag pins and idiotic pandering. They have nothing else on which to run. Why, however, in heaven's sweet name a democrat should wish to make an election about these sorts of inanities totally eludes me. Sen Clinton is a good candidate. She has good proposals to achieve good outcomes for the nation. Why would she prefer to spout nonsense instead of campaigning on her truly admirable platform?
Trying to outrepublican the republicans is a losing strategy from the start. Why do we wish to cede home field advantage to the enemy?
May 1, 2008 1:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Show me one economist who supports your conclusion that it would put $5 billion into people's pockets.
May 1, 2008 1:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
the gas tax thing won't happen, so it's harmless pandering. it's not as if for political expediency she supported an unnecessary war that killed thousands -- oh, wait, she did that, too.
May 1, 2008 1:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Guess who has the figure out how to pass and pay for the Gaseous Holiday? Congress. That means the supers. She is putting them in a hell of a bind--hopefully they know it.
May 1, 2008 1:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Pass gas. Didn't catch my own double entendre until now. New headlines should be "Hillary Wants to Pass Gas Relief".
May 1, 2008 1:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Whoop-de-damn-do. Internal polls show good news for the candidate who commissioned them. Will wonders never cease. I really need to tune out the rest of this election because it is frying my brain. Can anyone imagine a contest where the stakes are greater and the focus of the participants is more trivial? I wonder if this is what it felt like to be a Roman in the days of Leo the Great?
May 1, 2008 1:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
absolutely
May 1, 2008 1:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Andrea Mitchell just had a Republican supporter of of McCain on and asked about the Gas Tax Holiday and idea and he shot it down pretty hard. He was polite to McCain about it but said that the price wouldn't even go down by the full $.18 since the gas companies would just raise the prices and increase their profits. He also said that there is virtually no chance of the "windfall fallout tax" passing in time to pay for this if at all.
Andrea then had Wolfson on and asked him about it and he didn't address her questions and just said that he disagreed. She also asked Wolfson about the fact that polling shows that people don't trust Clinton and that they think she changes positions and he answered talking about how people like that she is a fighter. Of course since it was Andrea Mitchell she didn't follow up either question and let him get off easy.
May 1, 2008 1:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
andrea mitchell is having sex with alan greenspan.
i just wanted to get that visual in your head so that the next time you see her, you'll be too visiting throwing up to pay attention to her horrible reporting.
May 1, 2008 1:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Damn you.
May 1, 2008 2:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama will get 2025.
He'll have around 1700 pledged delegates once the primaries are over. Add on his ~250 SDs he currently has and he's at 1950. All he needs is roughly another 75 SDs to get him to 2025.
May 1, 2008 1:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oops. To fogu2 above.
May 1, 2008 1:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Internal polling?
Would this have been internal polling conducted by Mark Penn, perchance?
May 1, 2008 1:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Mark Penn: "Hey guize! Campaign is doing great! Keep up the good work! Umm, it's May 1, where is my $4 million check?"
May 1, 2008 1:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Okay. I live in the boonies and mosy days drive 15 miles to work. Thanks to the gas tax, I also have the option of taking a bus on an excellent subsidized rural system that costs me $3 a day. To save $$ I try to catch the bus once a week. The gas tax is a terrific use of resources and the $$ actually goes into infrastructure and public transportation.
This is what good government is all about. The redistribution of wealth for the common good. The tax refills of truck drivers are tax deductable and therefore subsidized a little already. I sympathize with them. I have little sympathy at saving the tax dollars of Escalante Driving Slugs.
May 1, 2008 2:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
why dont you just take the bus everyday?
its better and probably a helluva lot cheaper.
May 1, 2008 3:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
While a commendable job was done setting the record straight on the "holiday" itself, I find it curious that many are not challenging the premise that this is actually helping Clinton.
I am not sure if Garin is aware that asking Wolfson what he thinks is not what "internal polling" means.
May 1, 2008 2:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Having to constantly unspin Greg's spin on stories makes me dizzy.
May 1, 2008 2:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
The fact that Obama took the principled side of the gas tax holiday question will not help him politically in '08. Just as his anti-war stance would not have helped him politically in '02. I admire his courage and integrity.
On the other hand Hillary made the smart political move. You and I might see through it but a lot of those on the fence between her and McCain will interpret it as concern for beleaguered families. Sure it's fuzzy math, but this is politics, not an intellectual exercise. Wouldn't you rather have your candidate win?
May 1, 2008 4:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
No, I would not.
May 1, 2008 4:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
He may not.
May 1, 2008 8:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Now let's get straight about this. Hillary and McCain would lower the price at the pump of gas temporarily by dropping a federal tax of a few pennies. This most likely would raise gas consumption, raised demand. Thus, when the tax goes back up later, the price of gas should be higher than if the tax had been left in place. Not mere pandering this, but dangerously short sighted. This isn't leadership, but selfishness for short term political gain. A smart political move at our expense. Another reason not to vote either for either Republican: McCain or Hillary.
May 1, 2008 4:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
At our expense? The gas tax holiday is not going to happen. It's "campaign rhetoric," no one takes it seriously -- except purists.
May 1, 2008 8:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Dear Freaktown,
Scheduling. Unfortunately, I work different times each day and the bus only works 2 of my days. I am planning to kick it up to at least twice a week. Good prod though.
May 1, 2008 8:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
While this blatant pandering might win her Indiana, it will cost her with Super-Delegates.
May 2, 2008 11:51 AM | Reply | Permalink
The gas tax rebate or holiday (or whatever you may want to call it) is nothing but political pandering at its WORST!
May 2, 2008 12:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
guess all the commenters here are independently wealthy and afford the gas hikes.
Hillary doesn't proclaim its a cure-all, but a temporary bandaid. You anti-hillary people are just so filled with hate or paid obama stooges you can't see straight.
But you'll take the phoney rebate the president is sending us. Yeah, the one WE HAD to BORROW to send everyone sos you could pay for your big shopping day to jump start economy./rollseyes/ If you believe in THAT you're further gone than the family who believes a temporary tax holiday is a bad idea.
May 2, 2008 12:55 PM | Reply | Permalink