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CBS/NYT Poll: Obama Rebounds From Wright Damage, Public Split On Gas Tax

The new CBS/New York Times poll suggests that Barack Obama has successfully weathered the recent storm from Jeremiah Wright's re-emergence -- and furthermore, that Hillary Clinton's new signature issue of a gas tax holiday is not a big winner with the public at large.

The primary numbers, compared to the previous poll released four days ago:

Democratic Primary
Obama 50% (+4)
Clinton 38% (+2)

Sample size: 283 Democratic primary voters
Margin of error: ±5%

Another interesting number: A narrow 49% plurality of the total respondents oppose a gas tax holiday, with 45% in favor. Republicans are mostly in favor, Democrats closely divided, and independents overwhelmingly against it. Only 21% of respondents think the candidates pitching are doing so on policy grounds, with 70% saying they are doing it to help themselves politically.

General election numbers available after the jump.

General Election

Obama (D) 51% (+6)
McCain (R) 40% (-5)

Clinton (D) 53% (+5)
McCain (R) 41% (-2)

Sample size: 283 Democratic primary voters
Margin of error: ±5%

Sample size: 671 adults.
Margin of error: ±4%.


94 Comments

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people should know...those POLL not true... they didnt asked everyone... NOT BELIEVE THE POLL...NO TRUE

THIS IS EXCELLENT NEWS!! FOR HILLARY!!!

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Ah - there you are! ;)

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In a country with over 330 MILLION people, the jack_holes at CBS find two hundred and eighty-five people to ask about one of Bill Clinton's spiritual blow-job counselor . . .

That's good that people are starting to get the idea that Hillary is full of crap on her Republican gas tax pander. I just hope more Democrats see it for what it is before the next primary goes down.

Time to wake up people, Hillary is going after Democrats on behalf of the Republicans:

http://www.thepersonalispolitical.com/2008/05/hillary-attacks-democrats-and-experts.html

I just hope more Democrats see it for what it is before the next primary goes down.

What the overall poll results don't show is how important the Clinton/McSame pander is to various constituencies. The low-information voters who fall for it can't possibly feel strongly about an $0.18 per gallon bribe; OTOH, the tree-huggers take it very seriously -- and are furious at HRC's turn to the Repug side.

Also, the Dems in congress (superdelegates all!) are furious at her for trying to put them on the record in a lose-lose vote.

Yet another example of the prodigious "experience" that produced such a stunning victory in her health care reform initiative.

When's she gonna offer McSame the 'opportunity' to run as her VP?

...stupidity has no asymptote,

LK

Here here....

"Also, the Dems in congress (superdelegates all!) are furious at her for trying to put them on the record in a lose-lose vote."

Also, they must be asking themselves, "When did she become the dictator of the Congress?"

. . . people are starting to get the idea that Hillary is full of crap on her Republican gas tax pander.

1) Bad policy -- enriches the oil companies (they pocket the tax rather than lower prices) and worsens the problem (excessive gas consumption, global warming) over the long run.

2) Bad message -- supports bogus and toxic Republican message that government and taxes are bad, and that we have the inalienable right to burn as much fossil fuel as we want.

3) Bad politics -- the majority of Americans reject it anyway.

Three strikes -- you're out!

Okay... Hillary can no longer say that Obama cant handle the Republicans during the general. Hes been going through so much bad shit recently, and he still comes out up by 12?? Up 11 against McCain?

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She killed her own argument.

She's been doing this way too long.

The sample size is small, but CBS/New York Times have been pretty reliable as far as I know. Even though the sample size is small, there is a large MOE. Still, I think we can make the conclusion that

a) Obama is doing a lot better than people has thought he was.
b) The Gas Tax Holiday is not as popular as Hillary thought it was.
c) McCain is not as strong as some people thought he was against either of the two candidates.

But again, as I always say, we can't trust polls too much. Let's wait til the GE to see where things go.

An overwhelming majority see her gas tax "holiday' as a political ploy.

Which is now going hand in hand with her honesty factor.

She must be trilled to be so trusted and believable.


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What Hillary and her supporters fail to understand is that the electorate has shifted AGAINST old politics. They are sick and tired of the voter-pleasing tax cuts that come back to bite them in the form of double digit inflation, the other form of taxation that really rips into the poor and the middle-class.

When revenue cannot meet government expenditure, there is one simple way for the government to get the paper money it needs, it CONJURES them out of thin air. We find more dollars chasing the same amount of goods and services, i.e. INFLATION, and most of us are no wiser.

What's so pernicious about Inflation as Tax is that it punishes the poorest the most, whereas progressive income and capital gains tax scales the burden accordingly.

Hillary, your game is up!

Qwerty, you sound very educated, well-versed in economics, and dare I say, possibly an elitist.

Seriously, thanks for the insight.

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I really like it - it really scans, Kathleen -

The Elitist was the finishing touch to the nym. It needed it.

;)

I wrote back to you on the last thread to say thanks, but do you think it makes me look fat?

I crack myself up. Tell the same jokes over and over.

And thanks. Also, it's late, but...I saw a posting on a Times blog by Thomas Van Orden. Name looked familiar, so I google/wiki'd. I know you can't know every lawyer in TX, but do you know this guy? What a story!

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Name sounds familiar - have to look him up.


and LOL!


One love y'all -

have a great Saturday night.

I don't think anybody likes high gas prices except for OPEC, oil companies and economists.

Oh, and Hillary, since her "Tax Holiday" will actually drive prices up higher, what with not keeping supply and demand in check, and the oil companies passing on the windfall profits tax onto the consumers.

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Nice overreach on the gas tax thing, Hil.

No, no, don't stop pushing it now. Run your gas tax cuts into the ground. Never give up!

Another interesting thing in here is that only 7% say Obama is a Muslim. I'm thinking that was way higher, like 20%, before Wright I and II.

Anyway, this poll has lots in it.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/politics/20080505_POLL.pdf

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Yep, I told my husband when the whole Wright thing exploded that this would put to rest the ridiculous "Obama is a scary Muslim" bullshit. Seems to have worked! ;)

It's totally hysterical. They have categories for the answers people gave and one is "United Church of Christ." Who the hell ever knows what Protestant denomination candidates are from (except, you know, the Mormon thing)? Obama is making us smarter, already. (I'm kidding. Sort of.)

I hope you're right.

This reminds me of a great line from Stephen Colbert the other night: "If you think Obama's minister hates America, wait 'til you see his imam!"

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Yah, the sample size is tiny. Moe of 5? Hardly reliable.

do you have a background in behavioral statistics? 285 is a very reasonable sample size. fyi, any sample size over 30 can yield highly reliable results.

Odd considering the results in populous states like Pennsylvania, Ohio, Texas, New York, California, New Jersey, Florida.

Maybe Obama is one of those guys that people tell pollsters they like but have trouble pulling the lever for.

Tuesday should help to clear things up.

Yep, the gas issue is a loser for Obama beause he proposed nothing .

Just like the gop.

She wins both States Tuesday.

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Aw, how cute. Get the Prozac and Valium ready and hide all the sharp implements because on Wednesday you're gonna be hurting, my friend. ;)

My favorite troll strikes again.

With such hope and optimism about Tuesday, it is strange you are not an Obamabot.

I did not drink the kool aid.

Oilbama's short term solution is nothing.

Just use your rebate checks to buy gas and never whine about the price again.

You're so cute! Can I keep you?!

Yup, just like the GOP... except for, you know, the GOP's presidential nominee, who is proposing almost the same thing as Clinton. Any luck finding any econimists who agree with you and your candidate?

gotalife, bet on your two-state prediction?

10 kegs of low-quality brewski if you are right; if wrong, forever hold your piece?

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Sweet.

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And if she loses, she concedes on Wednesday. And drives her hellcar back to Hell. Where she belongs.

The gas tax numbers are pretty easy to figure out--Republicans are for it because it's a tax cut, Clinton dead-enders are for it because Clinton's for it, while Obamanuts and Independents see it for the stoopid idea that it is.

Eric, though, you left out this number: 34% think Clinton believes in what she says, while 62% think she just says it to get votes.

Good, it looks like that issue has been put to rest. Now, can we PLEASE not have a daily "WRIGHT OMG SCARY BLACK PREACHER HURTING OBAMA'S CHANCES" post here at TPM? Kthnxbye.

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She wins both States Tuesday.

And if she doesn't, can we watch your head explode?

Clinton was doing much better when she was going strictly negative on Obama. The gas tax proposal was a bad move, because it brought her back into the spotlight, where her flaws--trustworthiness, primarily--were highlighted. (See, I could be a pundit, too!)

This poll is such a joke... strange thing is NYT doesn't even mention this poll in their story.
I was wondering why and this is the reason.. This is what CBS piece says..

"Among Democratic primary voters (those who have voted or plan to vote in a Democratic primary) Obama’s lead over Clinton has increased -- he now leads Clinton by twelve points, 50 percent to 38 percent. That’s up from his eight point lead in the poll released just a few days ago. However, among all registered voters who identify themselves as Democrats (regardless of whether they have voted or plan to vote in a Democratic primary) Obama and Clinton are virtually tied -- 45 percent for Clinton and 44 percent for Obama. This is similar to the numbers earlier in the week."

In an election this intense, it's kinda strange to see such difference between registered and likely voters which begs the question "By which criteria they are choosing likely voters" and frankly sample of 283!!

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It tears my heart out to think about those republicans---especially the ones who are so enthused about creationism being taught in schools, actually want their 30 dollar tax cuts, but they will not get them.

No creationism of wealth by cutting oil taxes this summer.

Chops for the creative use of creationism.

This poll seems to be an outlier, as this Obama "bump" wasn't reflected in today's Gallup or Rasmussen.

Todays Ras- Obama +1, Clinton -2, tied at 45.

Todays Gallup- Obama +2, Clinton -2, Obama up 49-45

Not quite as big as this one, but both have Obama going up.

The best part is that Obama been the target of a two-on-one pile-on by both McCain and Clinton and still out-polls both of them.

Yes! That's huge; dynamics strongly disfavor him right now -- media tried its level best to kill him -- and he's weathered it. He will crush McCain.

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It's like a fraternity hazing. To a fraternity that he doesn't want to join.

Didn't the poll say that 60 percent of Hillary's own supporters aren't in favor of the gas tax holiday?

I read the Times article a little while ago and was led to believe the findings were pretty hugely against the idea, much more than implied above.

James Carville: "If she gave him one of her cojones, they'd both have two."

I don't think America is ready for a 3-testicled hermaphrodite president.

Vote Obama. The electable Democrat.

Pisses me off that her campaign talks about testicles all the time. I thought Hillary liked women.

It's clear what that Troll of T.V. thinks with. What a small, vile man.

He seriously said that?

I mean it goes without saying that something like that could easily come out of stretch's mouth.

Nothing is below him...

But seriously?

mercy....

Yes, seriously. Here's the link to the story on HuffPo: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/05/04/carville-if-hillary-gave_n_100038.html

The entire Clinton campaign has zero class. Get them off the stage.

As a feminist, I'm appalled by Carville's comment. This should be the end of all whining about sexism from the Clinton camp. All gutter comments about Hillary's vagina are fair game, after this. Unfortunately.

Not a good day for feminists.

Indiana and North Carolina voters, end this now. Please.

Vote Obama. For civilization.

James Carville: "If she gave him one of her cojones, they'd both have two."

If she gave one to Carville, he'd have one.(Unless his dome counts as one)

If she gave one to Carville's wife, she'd have 4.

Hillary is a succubus.

Carville also said that

(Clinton needs to win both Indiana and North Carolina on Tuesday. “The onus is on her. She's got to do better than tie. If she wins Indiana and North Carolina, she's the nominee. She's got to shock the system, and she may be shocking it.”)

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/05/carville-says-o.html

Bill is an incubus.

Regardless of what the polls say I still don't think Obama will beat McCain although I will vote for him.

Come May 7,2008 Goat I am gonna be singing my favorite tune,SHA NA NA SAY HEY HEY GOODBYE!!!
And good Riddnace to the IRON *****!!!By the way Goat I hear TROLLS are a Big hit at the Circus!!!

Gotta love the way the trend lines are trending!

IN is going to be very close.

I made calls today to Indiana today and I think the worst thing that people can do is listen to polls. People need to GO VOTE! I am surprised by any poll that has Obama up by double digits in IN. I would be highly suspect at that poll. And I say this as a 100% Obama supporter!

Thats not an Indiana poll. Its a national poll. Most Indiana polls show Obama behind by high single digits. Zogby had him up by a couple but

1) its Zogby

2) there was huge number of undecided in those results.

HRC is NOT electable!

Any polls that show Clinton beating McCain today are just as accurate as the polls 6 months ago that indicated Clinton would get 60+% of the vote in the primary.

Limbaugh et al. have deliberately held their fire. If HRC is nominated, there will be months of ranting about the violation of the spirit of the 22nd amendment to install the Clinton co-presidency for a third term. Among many other rants.

Given the virtual certainty the Obama will lead in pledged delegates after June 3, even after seating FL and MI delegates as selected at their state conventions (a net 60 for Clinton), large numbers of Obama supporters will feel cheated and betrayed if Obama is not the nominee. HRC will not have enthusiastic support among some core Demo voting blocks, if she wins the nomination without coming in first place in the contest for earned delegates.

I feel pretty certain that HRC cannot win in the fall. I've felt that way since she announced her candidacy. Even more so now.

Polls are rough snapshots to begin with.
Sample size is crucial.
A good rule to follow: pay absolutely no attention to any national poll with under 1,000 respondents.
Many are based on samples of about 600, and if a string of such polls consistently reinforce each other, you can give the trend some credence.
But that CBS and NYT -- allegedly reputable media organizations -- have the balls to even publish a poll with fewer than 300 respondents is shocking.
A poll with a sample that small is just garbage.

You must know something that Gallup, Rasmussen and the rest of the pollsters in the US don't. Only a handful since last fall have a sample size over 1000.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/democratic_presidential_nomination-191.html#polls

Oh, also, the sample size on the Times poll is 671 for all likely voters.

Hence the margin of error of 5%.


From "Head of State"

http://headofstate.blogspot.com/2008/05/clinton-calls-for-bad-weather-holiday.html

Monday, May 05, 2008

Clinton Calls for "Bad Weather Holiday"

"When asked this morning by ABC News' George Stephanopoulos if she could name a single economist who backs her call for a gas tax holiday this summer, HRC said "I'm not going to put my lot in with economists.”

The gas tax holiday is...so economically stupid (it would increase demand for gas and cause prices to rise, eliminating any benefit to consumers while costing the Treasury more than $9 billion, and generate more pollution) and silly (even if she won, HRC won’t be president this summer) as to be worrisome. That HRC now says she doesn’t care that what economists think is even more troubling."

-Robert Reich, May 4, 2008

I know we've got those "intellectual", high-falutin', elitist meteorologists, those "forecasters" with their complicated charts and their mumbo-jumbo, their high fronts and their low fronts, their Doppler radars. But I've come to say that we're going to put an end to all of that.

When my daddy and I went out in the morning in (Scranton, Indianapolis, Durham, Hagåtña, Charlotte Amalie, San Juan), and he said "It's going to be a sunny day today", well, that was good enough for me.

And that's why, if you vote for me on (May 6, May 13, June 3), I will put into effect a "Bad Weather Holiday" running from the years 2009-2012--and potentially extendable.

That's right. We shouldn't have to eat our (hot dogs, barbecue, tamales, Chicken Estufao, Stewed oxtail) under rainy skies. We've had enough of going off to work in the (streets, sands, seas) of this most beautiful (state, territory) only to face a cold, cloudy day. We know what it's like to rest our weary bones after a hard day of labor in the nearest (local watering hole, locale taberna, berlina) only to step out into a stiff, tiring wind.

The Weather issue is very real to me, as I've been meeting people across this nation who (walk, drive, sail, ride ox before stewing tail) to work, and would save precious sums if they did not have to spend their hard earned money on "umbrellas" and "rain coats" and other high priced, high class items of the upper crust.

But I say: Let the 'Umbrella Lobby' take the brunt--not our hard working citizens. Oh, sure. I know elite opinion and so called "academic experts" say that my plan would cause 12 straight years of hail, swarms of ravenous locusts, and a vortex of hurricanes ranging from the Mideast to the West Coast.

But I don't put stock in experts. And neither should you. And that's why you should vote for me on (May 6, May 13, June 3).

Cite:

Head of State
http://headofstate.blogspot.com/2008/05/clinton-calls-for-bad-weather-holiday.html

I'm sorry -- I would LOVE to believe this poll, but the numbers don't add up. The sample size is tiny, but beyond that the MOE is not quoted accurately! According to basic binomial statistics the absolute minimum MOE would be 17%. I have no clue how you massage the numbers (read: miscalculate) to get that MOE.

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A modest proposal:

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A modest proposal: Randall Robinson, Cornel West, Charles Lawrence, and a bunch of other AA "intellectuals" argue on behaf of so-called "reparations" for AAs. I'd like to propose a similar concept: "repatriations." Let's assume that unlike other immigrant groups, nearly all AAs are net-net no gain at all to the economy. But let's further assume half of them are serious sources of costs i.e. prisons, crime, welfare, pointless "educational" expense. So that's maybe 20 million people. So the Us government offers these 20 million people, let's say 100k each, in return for giving up US citizenship and being repatriated to, say, Ghana. For a family of five i.e. mommy and five kids, half a million dollars is enough to live like royalty in Ghana. And for single thug-life guys, a 100k should be enough for plenty of bitches, as they so colorfully say. But for the U.S. the benefits would be well worth the increased taxes necessary to pay for this scheme. Imagine, lower crime, urban neighborhoods opened up for revitalization, make-believe collegs and academic departments could be shuttered. It would be almost an American renaissance.

Milorad Buggeroff?! Is that you??

Ironic that you are adopting a kind of welfare Pan-Africanism... a sort of David Duke meets Marcus Garvey intellectual lovechild.

What does any of the drivel you just wrote have to do wit Obama, Ludmila? Don't you have a cross burning to attend?

Go relax with your Ruslan, Ludmila. Then come back.

Hillary is what the doomed college kids see at the end of 'The Blair Witch Project'.


The new USA Today/Gallup poll shows Obama has taken a huge tumble. Here are some excerpts. Here's the link to the whole story.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-05-04-obama_N.htm?csp=15

Barack Obama's national standing has been significantly damaged by the controversy over his former pastor, a USA TODAY/Gallup Poll finds, raising questions for some voters about the Illinois senator's values, credibility and electability.

In the USA TODAY survey, taken Thursday through Saturday, Clinton leads Obama among Democrats and Democratic-leaning independents by 7 percentage points, the first time in three months she has been ahead. Two weeks ago, before the controversy over comments by Jeremiah Wright reignited, Obama led by 10 points.

• One in four Americans who are following the controversy say their "best guess" is that Obama agrees with Wright's views, even though the senator has said repeatedly he finds them offensive and wrong.

• Obama has lost the 8-point advantage he held over Clinton in February as someone who "shares your values." Clinton has a 5-point edge among Democrats and Democratic-leaning independents.

According to the Associated Press, Obama has 1,742½ delegates, Clinton 1,607½. In the national survey, Clinton now leads the Democratic presidential contest, 51%-44%, a reversal from two weeks ago. Obama's standing among Democrats and Democratic leaners has dropped 6 points; Clinton's is up 11.

Most Democratic voters are happy to see the contest between Obama and Clinton go on. One in four say Clinton should concede and one in seven say Obama should do so, but 60% say both should continue to campaign.

Newsweek says Oprah left Jeremiah Wright's church because she was never comfortable with the tone of his sermons. Excerpt:

Winfrey was a member of Trinity United from 1984 to 1986, and she continued to attend off and on into the early to the mid-1990s. But then she stopped. A major reason—but by no means the only reason—was the Rev. Jeremiah Wright.

According to two sources, Winfrey was never comfortable with the tone of Wright's more incendiary sermons, which she knew had the power to damage her standing as America's favorite daytime talk-show host. "Oprah is a businesswoman, first and foremost," said one longtime friend, who requested anonymity when discussing Winfrey's personal sentiments. "She's always been aware that her audience is very mainstream, and doing anything to offend them just wouldn't be smart. She's been around black churches all her life, so Reverend Wright's anger-filled message didn't surprise her. But it just wasn't what she was looking for in a church."

Anyonymous sources from a "longtime friend" is no more credible than the National Enquirer.

I'm sure you know that, but sewing dragon's teeth is your M.O.

Anybody else noticed a pattern about these national polls? It seems like Obama's numbers drop if there's a scandal (or a perception of a scandal) associated with his campaign, but after about 3-4 days they pop right back up to where they were before. Clinton's numbers have exhibited almost the reverse of this pattern--a very slow downward slope, interspersed with brief (dare I say it?) surges that correspond to Obama's downturns.

Is this just noise, or an actual pattern?

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oh, my apologies, I think the preferred term is "bitchez." Eh, I give Obama credit on the gas tax flap. But at the end of the day, I still am not convinved he's much better than any other affirmative-action baby I've ever met or read i.e. not at all impressive.

paul krugman's boss is such a crazy bitch! he works his butt off for her, and then she insults him. some guys are in to that, though.

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speaking further of economics, my "repatriations" plan would cost two trillion. However, offestting that expense would be savings in crime reduction, urban renewal, a better educational system, and various other benefits. and for the acceptees, what would be better, living like royalty in Ghana, or living like animals in some South Side project? Everybody wins.

Can we pay you two trillion to go away?

It's weird to think that voters could use the gas tax holiday (which will never ever happen as Clinton describes it) as a single issue for their votes in IN & NC.

But perhaps the hammering by Obama on the rank dishonesty by Clinton in proposing it could play into the general theme of Hillary's untrustworthiness with voters. He seems to have played this issue correctly and made it part of the larger narrative against her. Will the voters bite?

If you are an Obama supporter, time to call Indiana today. I also imagine that you could use Hillary's list from her website to call voters for Obama in Indiana as well. Just a thought.

Hillary is on a freight train that leaves a station traveling at 30 miles per hour. Obama is on a passenger train that leaves 1 hour later traveling at 50 miles per hour. Before either train leaves the station, Hillary gives Obama one of her three testicles. Who arrives at the next station first?

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I have been in Indiana starting Friday, volunteering for the Obama nomination. I'd like to offer a snapshot in time of the Terre Haute Obama headquarters yesterday afternoon. What I saw put the lie to the notion that Obama supporters are mainly young folk.

When I came back into the office after completing one canvassing area, I saw maybe twenty folks milling around at that time, waiting for the next focus. All of those folks except for two were obviously age 50+, like me. The reality was so different than the usual spin that I said aloud to those in the room, "Hey, I thought Obama was attracting only the youth! What are all of us older folks doing here? I see only two here who could be in their 20's."

A sample of 287? Why bother?
Here's Obama's problem: he's losing ground not because of Wright or "elitism" or any other bogus issue, but because he hasn't dealt with the nostalgia for the economy of the '90s, which is what is buoying up Hillary's candidacy.

I never thought she had a chance in 2008. But the economy is far worse (and more importantly, perceived to be far worse) than most people had anticipated. This is playing to her strength, and believe me, nobody is going to care about Lewinsky or Bosnia or any of the rest of the Clinton bullshit if they think these two can bring the economy back to where it was in 1998. And many people DO think this.

Obama hasn't shown the wit or resourcefulness to counter this. It's not going to get done with detailed policy pronouncements. Nobody cares about policy. He's got to tell people "that was then, this is now", and that there won't be an internet bubble to return us to prosperity (there will be a green energy bubble instead), and that it's time to move on.

Hillary's gas tax thing is horseshit of course, and it gives Obama a perfect chance to make ger look like an economic lamebrain who won't be able to replicate the '90s prosperity that everybody wants. So far, he's blowing it.

If you call winning the nomination blowing it.

long tom, obama is really blowing it. ....that's because the nomination was his inheritance and he was inevitable in january. he has just played it to safe. he took it and us for granted. but the voters decide, not his fawning media and party connections.

Andy,
Obama's party connections? Who have been Democratic royalty for the past 14 years? The biggest fundraisers. Mrs. Invevitble. The Clintons! When I began supporting him last June, I NEVER thought he'd be where he is now. He hasn't gone after her electability issues, unlike Clinton that seems to relish in providing the GOP with clips to use against Obama in the Fall. Stay classy, Hillary supporters!

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Thank you Kathleen Hussein. Must be the latte-addled brains working out the math...:) Seriously, I owe this understanding to the Ron Paul crowd, conservatives who are appalled at the bankers-Fed-government free-for-all at the expense of the ordinary Joes. They never teach this in school, except perhaps under Marxism. Yet there is a process of "socialization" of the economic catastrophes going on, eg. Bear Stearns bailed out by the Fed, privatize profits (to the bankers), nationalize loss (to the people).

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