Bill Clinton: Are Caucuses More Important Than Primaries?
Bill Clinton has taken another step in the Hillary campaign's arguments about the Democratic popular vote, bluntly telling a crowd in Puerto Rico that super-delegates and the party as a whole will have to judge just how much caucuses should matter.
"And the party will have to decide whether they believe the caucuses -- where you get about one delegate for 2000 votes -- are more important than the primaries where you get one for 12,000," Bill told the crowd.
This is on top of a line from Hillary's new letter to super-delegates, in which she predicted that by the time this race is over, she will have won more pledged delegates from primaries -- a subtle message that Obama's victories in caucus states are illusory as far as how much support they truly represent for him.

Bill Clinton has become my favorite comedian.
May 28, 2008 11:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is sad stuff. Clinton is embarrassing himself with such weak arguments. It now seems that participating in caucuses may be hazardous to your representation.
But this, of course, is just one of many occasions in which he has embarrassed himself. Just last week he was making outrageous claims in Montana. Fortunately, there is a unique pictorial representation of his activities on the trail.
"Bill in Montana and Florida"
http://msa4.wordpress.com/
May 29, 2008 12:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
It's insulting. Besides, even comparing closed primaries to open and semi-open primaries lacks a common denominator, which is why delegates are used as a common currency.
Caucuses serve a purpose. They test a candidate's volunteer force and organization. Why shouldn't the people who are willing to put in hours of their own time have more say in the nomination process than the people who just put up a sign on their lawn, and vote for their candidate? We want a candidate who not only candidate who not only get people to go to the polls, but not enough volunteers to mount a successful campaign?
But bigger than that -- I fear the precedent that will be set if superdelegates use the total popular vote as the metric. If you think proportional allocation produces a never-ending process, well, using popular vote as a metric will be far worse. Every candidate, thinking if he or she can get the most aggregate votes, the superdelegates will overrule the pledged delegates, will have great reason to stay in the race until June. I don't think the superdelegates want to set that kind of precedent.
May 29, 2008 9:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
Disgraceful.
May 28, 2008 11:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
I really wonder how those SDs from Caucus states feel about the Clintons demeaning the caucus process.
May 28, 2008 11:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, I live in Minnesota and I find his suggestion absolutely disgusting. I, I just don't even know what to say. I cannot believe a former President, one who became the nominee from primary and caucus states could even suggest this. State's rights, Bill, state's rights.....
May 28, 2008 11:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Bill's losing his marbles, Joseph, losing his marbles ...
May 29, 2008 12:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
oops. i thought SD meant sexy dancer.
May 29, 2008 12:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
Should the SuperDelegates also decide how important Puerto Rico should be since they aren't a state and can't vote in the GE?
May 28, 2008 11:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Okay. This has become a full-court press of unbounded narcissism. It's not funny anymore. I'm completely convinced that Saturday morning will be Brook Brothers Riot Redux and the Clintons are hellbent on taking this to the Convention.
The Clintons have no regard for the Democratic Party and will hold no regrets over any damage this entitlement-induced fight will do to it.
I don't know what happens from here. But I can't comfortably buy the popular assertion that this will be over in a week.
May 28, 2008 11:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sort of like Bush wanting to go to war in Iraq because it would make him great and him being a War President is so cool.
May 29, 2008 12:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
That's suppose to somehow be more representative?
May 28, 2008 11:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ah, but irony somehow escapes them.
May 29, 2008 8:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
Caucuses should not be legal.... all states should have to hold primary's
I am so looking forward to May 31, 2008 :)
Hillary good luck with Michigan and Florida:)
GO HILLARY!!!!!!!!!
May 28, 2008 11:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
It would have been nice if any of these peoples decrying caucuses would have expressed their concerns sometime BEFORE the primary began.
But they didn't. Because nobody considered caucuses undemocratic until Hillary started losing them.
May 28, 2008 11:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
No shit...they've had, um, a couple hundred years to fix it. Now that a few people have chosen this year to pretend to know something, it's all of a sudden a bad thing to have caucuses. I wonder if the people running that line realize how imbecilic they sound.
May 29, 2008 1:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, yes....why didn't Bill express this heartfelt opinion sometime in December in, say, Iowa?
May 29, 2008 8:51 AM | Reply | Permalink
Or more to the point, during the eight years when he was president and his people were running the DNC and writing most of the rules we now operate under. The Dean DNC renegotiated plenty of stuff, like the the other early primaries, but nothing has changed about whether states should have primaries or caucuses since Bill's time.
May 29, 2008 2:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Perfectly fine. You'll have four years to help craft the solution.
The rules for this election are set.
Now, hands off!
May 28, 2008 11:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Since I pledged to try to be nice to Clinton and her supporters on another thread, here I will attempt a reasoned argument and express my amazement that Clinton's view is considered
D(d)emocratic (big or small d) to understand, agree to, and participate under the election rules established prior to the elections and then, when losing under those rules, attempt to change them. Apply this to caucuses, Florida and Michigan.
Apparently this strikes Clinton supporters as showing they want a fighter in the White House. What I see is someone who ignores established rules to get what they want and creates rules that favor only themselves. Why does that sound familiar? Why? Why? Oh, now I remember! Because we are living right now under such an administration. That's worked out well, hasn't it?
May 29, 2008 12:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
I hope the Super Delegates and those involved in the Saturday meeting decide the real issue:
Does Hillary Clinton have the ethical standards we should expect from a POTUS? The answer is clearly "NO." and I'm not talking about bogus stuff we read from Republicans.
Lied about Bosnia trip.
Lied about Ireland talks.
Lied about commitment to Florida & Michigan.
Yet she blames others for all of this while also refusing to apologize for her vote for Iraq and Iran and never apologizing to the Obama family for her comments about assassination.
She has a personality defect to the point she cannot see her own errors anymore; and Bill is worse than she is in that area.
May 29, 2008 12:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
Concise and accurate.
Kudos!
May 29, 2008 12:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
Although I support a different candidate, I have to admire and respect your relentlessly positive attitude. You don't diss people, HillaryClinton08, and you aren't conspiracy-minded. You exude boundless enthusiasm for your candidate. Good for you.
May 29, 2008 1:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
It is a Party nomination process. Actual primaries are relatively new. In 1968 only 13 states had them and Hubert Humphrey won none of them. A party can select their nominee any way they choose. They could go "rock, paper, scissors" and it would be fine. It is THEIR nomination. Not the public's.
May 29, 2008 2:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
Pathetic.
May 29, 2008 8:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
In my opinion there should be no primaries, only caucuses. As has been stated by so many over this cycle, we are not electing a president in this stage of the process. We are selecting the person to represent the party in the election of the president. Why we let republicans and independents help Democrats determine their candidate is beyond understanding. Even those claiming to be democrats but do nothing to understand candidates, issues, and the process should not be allowed to help chose the person representing the party.
Denis
May 29, 2008 8:48 AM | Reply | Permalink
I have to say I'm kind of torn on your stance against open primaries.
On one hand, I understand and share your frustration with people who don't bother to take the time out to understand the issues, etc., and instead vote on name recognition or for other ridiculous reasons (in 2004, a dear friend of mine, who is typically apolitical, voted for Bush because Cheney reminded her of her father - I couldn't decide whether to be mad at the ridiculousness of it or to feel bad for her because of the obvious need for some therapy).
On the other hand, though, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to let independents vote in the primaries. Don't we want a candidate who can appeal to independents? In addition, I think it helps to engage people outside of the party into the process and helps to introduce the eventual nominee to them. I think that's probably a good thing.
May 29, 2008 9:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
In Virginia, there is no party declaration to be made. We are all just open voters here so it would require the state to change the way we register to vote in order to change the primary from open to closed.
May 29, 2008 9:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
It's the same here in GA - you just choose your ballot on the day of the primary.
May 29, 2008 9:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
Is this intentional or unintentional parody?
May 29, 2008 8:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
Count every vote, except the caucuses?
The energy it takes to lie, spin and dissemble their way through this process, would power a small town. Bizarrely, it's all moot anyway, because Obama is within spitting distance of the nomination.
The sheer absurdity of it all!
May 28, 2008 11:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
If this man doesn't jump through hoops to get Obama elected in November, I'm in favor of the media fully re-opening all of those half-closed investigations.
May 28, 2008 11:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
OT: I hope you guys beat the hell out of Alabama in Atlanta!
May 28, 2008 11:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Maybe we will...if we can manage to keep it out of overtime.
May 28, 2008 11:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Politics and southern college football. What else do you need, right? :)
May 28, 2008 11:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
I remember back in '92 there were planes trailing "No Draft Dodgers For President" at the football games. Ah, those were the days. These days, I'm kind of wishing we listened to them.
May 28, 2008 11:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
I just want them to go away........
May 28, 2008 11:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ditto. I don't think I want him anywhere near the GE campaign trail. Look at how pathetic he is now. Obama doesn't need that kind of "help" in the GE.
May 29, 2008 12:10 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm starting to wish this fucking scumbag was impeached.
May 28, 2008 11:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
He was impeached, actually. He wasn't convicted.
May 28, 2008 11:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
I used to feel sorry for the putz. Now I wish he was convicted for lying under oath. He lies all the time, maybe it might have changed him for the better and stopped the lying. It's really disgusting.
May 28, 2008 11:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
What of the vaunted Clintonian political skills?
May 28, 2008 11:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Clintonian = lying. It really is sad, but we have had 15 years now of administrations that have lied about everything from civil rights to wars. Why can't people just be honest and let the chips fall where they may. It's really depressing.
May 28, 2008 11:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
15? You're being way too nice. What about Reagan? He was a superb liar as was everyone in his administration, many who also just happen to be in this administration.
May 29, 2008 1:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
I totally agree about Reagan - but with Reagan it almost seemed like he was a little too "confused" to understand that he was lying. With Bill, you know he knows he's lying to you - even when he looks you straight in the eye and wags his finger in your face.
May 29, 2008 9:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
Look over there Bill,pudgy interns with cheeseburgers!(anything to make him stop)
May 28, 2008 11:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
I wonder how much of this is not necessarily out of vanity, narcissism, or ambition, but out of the need for basic survival. Think about it: the Colombians have paid a significant amount of money to Bill for "speaking fees," and if the Clintons don't deliver by winning and passing the free trade agreement with Colombia, they're in deep trouble. My understanding is that you don't want to screw around with the Colombians. Or for that matter, any one of the other sketchy entities that have paid BIll (Uzbekistan, Clinton LIbrary/foundation donors, etc.).
May 28, 2008 11:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
He needs her to win so he can collect another 100mill in consulting and speeches....It's not about us it's about MONEY!
May 29, 2008 12:10 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm as disgusted with Bill and Hillary Clinton as you are, but in fairness, he makes a lot more money by her not winning because pesky ethics rules won't apply. Post-presidency, of course, is another matter entirely.
May 29, 2008 8:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
The Colombian government isn't going to knock off a former POTUS because he didn't deliver a trade agreement. Colombia is a our closest partner in South America and the government isn't run by drug cartels either!
May 29, 2008 9:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
Caucuses should not be legal.... all states should have to hold primary's
So true. Caucuses should be banned. They're only for those holier-than-thou, elitist, Democratic activists who want to hang around and talk about the candidates and help build their party's platform, rather than just drop by for a quick vote and leave.
Besides, caucuses are patently unfair to those candidates who have to rely on name recognition and voters with short attention spans to jack up their popular vote count.
May 28, 2008 11:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
I used to be against the caucuses until I looked into them and their purposes. They actually are good for the party as you point out and help build the party and in a way are more democratic than the primaries. I hope this ridiculous scorched earth primary doesn't cause state parties to abandon caucuses in the future. The clintons really are pathetic. I am soooo sick of them. Major clinton fatigue.
May 28, 2008 11:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Exactly.
I've never participated in one, but I've talked with those who have, and caucuses are the epitome of our process. Common folk talking about candidates, listening to their representatives, learning --- unfiltered! --- about what the candidates believe.
That's the process at its finest. Caucusers don't totally discount the big-money advertising of candidates, but I think the discussions that go on --- neighbor to neighbor --- carry much more weight.
That's the way it should be. It's advertising and the media that have ruined the process.
May 28, 2008 11:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
They were designed to insure that low information voters didn't come under the sway of some empty suit. The rationale was that only those so committed to the Democratic Party to participate in a caucus should be involved in that process. Thus the multiple levels of commitment. In short, it was designed to protect the establishment candidate.
Funny how that didn't work out this time.
May 28, 2008 11:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't know about that conclusion about being designed to protect the establishment candidate. However, caucuses are basically the way that the country actually voted for president and reps until around 1900. People would gather in a room on election day and have at it and try to persuade their fellow citizens to vote for their respective candidates. There were no secret ballots and hidden voting. It was all in the open, just like a caucus, and then the results of the voting would be passed up the food chain. It's kind of fascinating when you think about it and then throw in all the other points about party building and civic action. Caucuses are a good thing and should not be demeaned and degraded like the clintons are doing.
May 29, 2008 12:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
They were designed to insure that low information voters didn't come under the sway of some empty suit.
In this case you mean an empty "pant suit".
May 29, 2008 12:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
Attention, superdelegates from caucus states ....
May 28, 2008 11:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you, Bill Clinton, for telling my state we don't count as much as those other states. Yes. Fuck you very much.
Where was all this fauxtrage over caucuses before Hillary lost so many? Where was all the fauxtrage over Michigan and Florida before she needed every delegate she could beg, borrow or steal?
They have no principles. It's pathetic.
May 28, 2008 11:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Have I told you lately that I love your avatar?
And, by extension --- and, moreover, through your comments --- you?
;)