ABC: Obama Overtakes Hillary Among Super-Delegates
While each news organization's super-delegate count varies, Barack Obama has reached a new milestone: According to ABC News, the first news outlet to declare this, he has overtaken Hillary Clinton in support among super-delegates by a score of 267-265.
In a further sign of political decline for Hillary Clinton, African-American Congressman Donald Payne of New Jersey has now switched his allegiance from Clinton over to Barack Obama. "It's time now for us to pull our party together," Payne told the Newark Star-Ledger.
Obama has also picked up Rep. Peter DeFazio (D-OR), while Hillary has gotten freshman Rep. Chris Carney (D-PA).
The score so far for today: Obama +2, Hillary net +0.
Late Update: Obama has just been endorsed by Maryland DNC member John Gage, bringing Obama to +3 so far today.
Late Update: Just to clarify a certain point, Payne's switch does beg the question of whether Hillary's statement about winning more white voters has alienated her in any way from black supporters.















But . . . But . . . But . . . Senator Clinton has still stacked the rules committee! Hillary is still ahead there!
May 9, 2008 8:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
But . . . But . . . But . . . Senator Clinton has still stacked the rules committee! Hillary is still ahead there!
And she still believes she's ahead. That's all that matters.
May 9, 2008 8:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
John Gage just endorsed Obama. He's a super.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/politics/wire/sns-ap-obama-union,1,2397754.story
May 9, 2008 8:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
More importantly, he's head of AFGE, the largest union of federal employees, and brings institutional support beyond his one vote as a super.
May 9, 2008 9:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
African-American Congressman Donald Payne of New Jersey and Rep. Peter DeFazio (D-OR).
I thought we were beyond this crap?
Maybe African-American Congressman Donald Payne of New Jersey and Italian-American Rep. Peter DeFazio (D-OR) would be better!
May 9, 2008 8:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
Or how about, maybe, possibly, just "Congressman?"
May 9, 2008 8:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
the rest of the media isn't calling Rep. Payne an African-American who endorsed Obama. Why are you making this distinction, Eric?
May 9, 2008 8:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
The Assoc. Press used the term "black" congressman
http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/samgrahamfelsen/gGB9Ft
May 9, 2008 9:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
Eric
The game is over now. Get it ? She lost it. You can come out of the tank now.
And TPM is supposed to be a progressive blog, how ? Sheesh!
May 9, 2008 8:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
I agree - what's up with that, Eric???
May 9, 2008 9:01 AM | Reply | Permalink
Exactly, why isn't DeFazio listed as WHITE Congressman, or Italian-American Congressman?
May 9, 2008 9:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well, because that would be buying into Clinton's latest campaign strategy.
May 9, 2008 10:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
It's relevant in the context of Hillary's actions possible alienating black voters, but that context needs to be made clear earlier on. Better to just identify him as Congressman or Representative or whatever, and then refer to race in a second sentence reminding the world of Hillary's claim to get the poor white folk vote.
May 9, 2008 9:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
African congressman Donald Payne (D-NJ) and elitist latte liberal Rep. Peter DeFazio (D-OR). Happy now?
May 9, 2008 9:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
this just made my weekend
May 9, 2008 8:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
Add another for OBama: John Gage of Maryland
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/politics/wire/sns-ap-obama-union,1,2397754.story
May 9, 2008 8:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
Eric Kleefeld: The MSM, btw, is not identifying his race. Here is one case where I agree with them.
May 9, 2008 8:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
Eric's a bit of a tool that way.
May 9, 2008 8:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
While the need to identify a human by their skin color should have passed - we are in a game of demographics. To hold Eric responsible for this trend is like Desidero holding everyone responsible for the oppression of women.
It sounds like a great conversation piece, but to call Eric a tool for it is as intolerant as that which you are raging against. This is neither the time nor place. Your own blog entry would do much better.
Civility takes all parties.
May 9, 2008 10:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well actually, the article Eric linked to about Payne does state that he is an African-American, but aparently that is put Payne's own statement about Obama being an African-American in context:
As for Gage, here is a link to his bio. He is President of American Federation of Government Employees, and there was recent speculation that he was going to come out for Clinton.
May 9, 2008 9:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
Good lord, Eric.
I am a 37-year-old white guy. I had no idea Donald Payne was African-American. Further, I don't give a shit that he is African-American. Why does that need to be an identifier for his support of Obama? What the fuck?
Why in the world have you identified him that way?
Is it really so hard to understand that Obama can reflect a post race-identifying world? The younger generation (younger than mine) certainly doesn't see things in the stark black/white terms that for too long too many of us have.
C'mon man, you are better than this.
May 9, 2008 8:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
Eric's a Clinton supporter. His posts have leaned that way.
May 9, 2008 8:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
I totally agree with that. I couldn't for the life of me recall a primary where race was such a big issue. And frankly, I am disappointed with our country right now, that some of us are still falling for racial divisive tools (not you Eric) that continue to serve the elite and not the masses success. *sigh*
May 9, 2008 11:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
It's like with Clinton; there are 'hard-working Americans' who are white and then there are Obama supporters.
May 9, 2008 12:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
Eric, HRC got Chris Carney of PA?
Um, is that white-guy-Chris Carney of PA? I guess I need to know, so I can understand his suport of her. Is it a white thing?
Please illumine me.
May 9, 2008 8:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
Ok, so Caucasian-American Chris Carney came out for Clinton, a Caucasian-American, last night.
May 9, 2008 8:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
Um, actually...while I'm not sure that it matters what Donald Payne's race is, I've kinda been wondering if we wouldn't see a lot of AA superdelegates either endorsing or switching allegiances, now that Hillary can't win and is continuing with the "but white voters like me better!" stuff. I'm not saying that this is why Payne has come out for Obama, but if it is, I consider it to be a totally legitimate reason for doing it. As it would be a totally legitimate reason for any of the white superdels who don't want to see this thing descend any further into a racial divide.
May 9, 2008 8:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
I agree.
Eric should have said something similar.
Hillary is pissing people off with her blatant race card playing.
May 9, 2008 9:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
African-American? We elect congressmen and women. We don't elect "African-American congressmen." Nor do we elect "Italian-American congressmen." Eric, if you disagree you might want to insert the term "Italian-American" in front of Rep. Peter DeFazio (D-OR).
If Eric had an editor the editor might have told him to remove "African-American." I guess it is up to us.
May 9, 2008 8:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
or when David Wu endorses, we'll call him "Asian-American Rep. David Wu". Man, this just makes Eric sound like a bigger tool.
May 9, 2008 8:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
Just FYI, Wu has endorsed Obama.
May 9, 2008 9:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
Re: 2nd late late update.
Ah, is that where you were going with that? I guess...
May 9, 2008 8:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
I wonder how an Intelligent and astute woman like Hillary Clinton can stay in the race when it is mathematically impossible to win.
Is she waiting for a miracle, or for some one to assassinate Obama, or she knows something we don't? I'm just wondering here, for lack of logic.
May 9, 2008 8:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
You think ???
May 9, 2008 8:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
Maybe TPM could do us the favor and show us the breakdown of superdelegate votes by race. My understanding from the Clinton campaign is that African-American superdelegate votes are worth 3/5 that of a white vote, is that correct?
May 9, 2008 8:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
In response to the update:
No, it doesn't. Rep. Payne was one of the first superdelegates to endorse Hillary Clinton early on before the race started. He's switching because quite frankly, the writing is on the wall. I also don't think it's a race-based switch, but a pragmatic switch of supporting the eventual Democratic nominee.
May 9, 2008 9:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
The most intelligent magazine in the English speaking world, The Economist, has an article making the case for Obama's nomination. Obama's picture also, is on its cover page.
Wake up Hillary, the race is over.
May 9, 2008 9:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
Please, TPM, please let me know for each ensuing SD announcment, whether the SD is a sneetch who has a star upon thars or if they are a non-star bellied sneetch.
I really need to know.
May 9, 2008 9:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
My guess is that the easiest delegates to flip from Clinton to Obama are the ones who made their endorsements like a reflex action when she announced. Joe Andrew is a perfect example. He endorsed her the day she announced. You could say he did it without thinking about it. Payne was also an early endorser.
The supers who endorsed her long before a single vote was cast might strangely have an easier time switching than those who endorsed after the voting began.
As for Eric mentioning Payne's race, well that just shows me he is an immature journalist who is viewing the switch in the lens of the most recent news cycle.
May 9, 2008 9:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hillary will be ignored.
May 9, 2008 9:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well, maybe Eric is stuck back in the prejudice that this contest should focus on race, thanks to Clinton's carefully chosen dog whistles [I have the most 'white supporters'] but that doesn't explain why all those white super delegates are endorsing Obama.
I think Eric just insulted the 'African American' in suggesting that race would be a factor for him, while it wouldn't be a factor for the other endorsers.
In other words, it is the black race which we can assume makes racist decisions, is that right, Eric? Just trying to understand your slant on this, Eric. Care to elaborate?
May 9, 2008 9:10 AM | Reply | Permalink
I get the outrage - we do not need to be identified by our skin color, or gender.
But everyone here does understand that Demographics is king in this game, right?
Not that we all should be, can, or are defined by some group title. But there is some truth to sorting behavior by vague groups, hence the concept of demographics.
Shitting on Eric for this unfortunate result of capitalism is like complaining about the fact that it is raining.
May 9, 2008 10:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
Seems like the race is ending not with a bang but with a steady drip, drip, drip while she twists slowly in the wind. (Pardon the morbid mixed metaphors.)
She could choose to end her suffering now (not likely) ... or she could go out on a high note by campaigning positively and only attacking McCain ... or she could talk about how white voters like her the best and continue to damage her legacy. It's her choice now.
May 9, 2008 9:15 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think it's completely reasonable for him to mention the superdelegate's race. As Eric pointed out in his update, the reactions of AA superdelegates to Hillary
s "but white people like me more!" pitch is something to watch.
May 9, 2008 9:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
The issue is that Eric's racism argument is....less than comprehensive. Only one congressman's race is highlighted, and only AA could be insulted by Hillbilly's comment.
May 9, 2008 9:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm white. I'm insulted by it.
May 9, 2008 10:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
That's my point.
May 9, 2008 11:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
And Eric, your statement does beg the question of whether you believe Hillary's statement about winning more white voters has alienated her in any way from only black supporters.
Can't her white supporters be offended by her remarks as well?
May 9, 2008 9:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
Eric, Your clarification of why you made a point of Congressman Payne race makes some sense, but by not giving your rationale originally you are just flaming the White American argument that Senator Clinton is pushing.
I'm white, I work hard, and I support Senator Obama.
May 9, 2008 9:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
Wow...everyone's touchy this morning. Payne made the point about his race, and I thought, as I read it, that he was sending a message in that message. I think he was commenting on the tipping point without going there. At least, it seemed that way to me.
May 9, 2008 9:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
Please allow Eric to express his frustration seeing that his candidate is now irrelevant.
May 9, 2008 9:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
Whether African-American, Clinton-supporting superdelegates will abandon Clinton after her recent remarks is just as newsworthy as whether African-American voters will abandon Clinton after Bill Clinton's remarks in New Hampshire and South Carolina. Not every mention of race is implicit racism. How are we going to have the dialog that Obama suggested in Philadelphia if we can't talk about race in the political arena?
Eric phrased this poorly (we hope). Hint: reword it, Eric.
May 9, 2008 9:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
First, Eric, unless Payne actually said something about Hillary's statement, don't speculate. Ask him if you want to know.
Second, although it's great that he has passed or will pass her, the +/- thing is irrelevant. Assuming Obama wins about half of the remaining pledged delegates, Hillary could beat him 2:1 on supers from here on out and Obama still wins going away (and of course that ain't gonna happen anyway).
May 9, 2008 9:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think Eric's got the message.
May 9, 2008 9:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
clearthinker made the same point albeit in a different manner, and I did not see any of this drivel and outrage.
we are made of loosely defined groups. some have meaning and value, others do not. Every time we use our last names, we are subscribing to the group we came from. Every gender reference ties us to a group.
For better or worse, we fit into categories, and this is not Eric's fault.
For all that, I agree that we are not defined by our skin color.
May 9, 2008 10:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm wondering what the heck is wrong with my state! (PA) Why do we insist on hitching our wagon to the loser???
May 9, 2008 9:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
New York, too. There's like three undeclared supers, one Obama super, and the rest are for Hillary. Ugh.
May 9, 2008 9:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
Good Lord you Obama people are ugly. Suddenly we're post racial? You were the same people arguing with me just last week that Hillary can't have the nomination because black people won't vote. So, group people into race only when it's convenient for you?
May 9, 2008 9:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hey. I've always found you to be a thoughtful and sensible Hillary supporter, so I was curious what your current position is. It's really hard to accurately gauge Hillary supporters' state of mind right now with people like gotalife and Louisville acting the fool.
May 9, 2008 9:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
They aren't acting.
May 9, 2008 9:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
Touche.
May 9, 2008 9:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
My position is that the nomination race is over. It's sad, and I'm still a little bitter, but I'm forcing myself to come around for Obama. He was always my second choice, but for so long I really believed Hillary would pull it out.
Now, however, with no chance to catch up in the popular vote any longer, she has no real argument. Pushing the whole "Obama's not winning whites" thing, while somewhat true, is making me sad for her. I still believe she would have the best chance to win in the fall. However, not running a black man because some people in this country are racist is not my idea of the Democratic Party. We're better than that. Roll the dice. Prove them wrong.
I am happy to see her follow through on the promise that everyone will get to vote, and I think she should stay in--but only as a positive candidate--until these primaries are over. I expect she will find the grace we need to see from her.
May 9, 2008 9:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
Great to hear, another_reader. Seriously. Thanks for that.
And I agree. If she calls off the attacks, I have no problem with her staying in throughout the rest of the primaries, and I think most of my fellow Obama supporters feel the same way.
May 9, 2008 9:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
yep, yep, yep.
May 9, 2008 10:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
If she doesn't call off the attacks, she's going to alienate a lot of her former supporters.
May 9, 2008 10:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hey, glad to have you on board! Of course, choosing to support Obama does not mean ever saying that he is/was a better candidate than Clinton, but merely saying that he is our candidate now and we need to group together to beat McCain, something that should be important to the vast majority of us.
FWIW, I agree that some are a bit quick to jump on race-based accusations both with respect to Eric here and with respect to Clinton. As you said, if we're going to have a dialog on race, we need to actually be able to discuss it. I think Eric's assumption here is weak (since we're talking about one person, we should give them the benefit of asking them rather than making assumptions about them), but I don't think it's impossible, either.
May 9, 2008 10:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm glad to be on board. How great is it that I have to let go of one historic campaign, but can jump on another?
May 9, 2008 10:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
What a great way to put the choice. Thanks.
May 9, 2008 10:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
Welcome aboard another_reader. Acutally, I am sorta jealous, you have got best of both worlds. :)
Seriously though, I think you, having seen her side, can bring in saner perspective to the exuberance of his supporters here and tell us when and where go wrong.
May 9, 2008 11:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
One suggestions I have--don't condemn John McCain the man, condemn his policies and actions. Nothing was worse for me than reading from many Obama supporters on here why Hillary was a this or a that. That's not a way to win people over.
May 9, 2008 11:14 AM | Reply | Permalink
another_reader
I agree some comments here go overboard in Hillary-bashing by being personal but many are harmless snarks based on her and her camp's actions and words. They are definitely nowhere near scale of MyDD, Hillaryis44 and Taylor Marsh, where racism seems to be the main qualitification to comment.
But everyone here loves Greg and Eric bashing :).
May 9, 2008 11:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
The thing is, Rep. Payne did answer the question, although somewhat obliquely, as to whether Hillary's remarks "alienated" him:
That's from the article Greg linked to, so I assume he read the whole thing. Payne also said that he had "really been mulling it over for quite a while" and that he announced his switch now because it is time for the party to unite behind one candidate and focus on defeating McCain.
So, on the one hand we have the public statements on the the whys and hows from Payne himself, taking pains to explain that his decision was based on the math, not the race/race-baiting issue; and on the other we have Eric's speculation that really it was that, because Payne is black, he was "alienated" by Hillary's recent remarks
So, yeah, I think that's fair game for criticism.
And I think Eric can take it.
May 9, 2008 11:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
I stand up and cheer for you, reader. And given some time, I'm convinced your heart will follow your head in support for Obama.
May 9, 2008 10:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hillary's "white voters" argument is emblematic of what went wrong with her campaign. I don't believe Hillary is a racist, not for a second, but I do believe that she is willing to play one on television if it helps her win the nomination. Hillary's lack of a strong moral compass has turned a lot of people off. That is really why she lost.
May 9, 2008 9:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
IDIOTIC WAVE!!!!
May 9, 2008 9:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
THIS
May 9, 2008 9:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
IS
May 9, 2008 9:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
EXCELLENT
May 9, 2008 9:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
NEWS
May 9, 2008 9:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
FOR
May 9, 2008 9:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
HILLARY!!!!
May 9, 2008 9:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
HILLARY!!!
May 9, 2008 9:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
HILLARY!!!!!
May 9, 2008 9:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hillary!
May 9, 2008 9:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
damnit, i meant HILLARY!!!!
May 9, 2008 9:48 AM | Reply | Permalink
IS
May 9, 2008 9:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
TOAST!
May 9, 2008 9:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
WITH
May 9, 2008 12:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
THIS
May 9, 2008 9:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
FOR
May 9, 2008 10:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
NEWS
May 9, 2008 10:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
May 9, 2008 10:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
EXCELLENT
May 9, 2008 10:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
It's even funnier when it's out of order!
May 9, 2008 10:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
!!!HILLMENTUM™!!!!
May 9, 2008 12:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Eric seems to be playing right into (playing up?) the racial divisions....is the defining characteristic of this man that he is "African American"? I guess the implication is that NO WONDER he switched his support to Obama.
OK if you want to make the point you did at the end of the post that Hillary may have submarined the rest of her black support, and I believe she has. But, it just rubbed me weird that Payne had the qualifier and Fazio did not.
May 9, 2008 9:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
John Edwards Slipped on Morning Joe. He Voted for Obama:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/5/9/74236/08435/130/512432
Then said he will endorse who he voted for soon.
May 9, 2008 9:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
Good stuff. I can't imagine him endorsing Hillary given how much of his base went for Obama.
May 9, 2008 9:51 AM | Reply | Permalink
My reliable source for delegate count:
http://demconwatch.blogspot.com/
Obama is 6.5 supers away, according to demconwatch. I like how they're trickling...drip...drip...drip...rather than a grand gala.
-END IS NEAR
May 9, 2008 9:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
Does anyone here think that the revelation that McCain did not vote for Bush in 2000 only helps him?
May 9, 2008 9:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
I hadn't heard that. I don't think it matters much. In fact, I think it makes him even more of a hypocrite. He doesn't vote for him, but now embraces all of his policies. Hmmmmmmmmm?
May 9, 2008 10:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
It's on the front page. Huffington reported it and now Bradley Whitford and Schiff (From West Wing) are confirming the report that McCain told them all that in 2001.
May 9, 2008 10:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/05/09/west_wing_actors_confirm_accou.html
May 9, 2008 10:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
No it doesn't help him it makes him an flip-flopper (liar, hypocrite) the worse insult in GOP politics, remember, flip-flopper=weak(Kerry) , steadfast=strong (Bush)
May 9, 2008 10:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
I was just thinking that anything that can distance himself from Bush is a positive.
May 9, 2008 10:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think it's a positive for him. If he's going to win over the swing voters, he will need to win back his "maverick" title and this surely helps. Unfortunately for him, it won't do anything to alienate the Republican base who already is not that fond of him.
May 9, 2008 10:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah. It'll help him with independents but hurt him with the base. A net loss, I assume, because Obama is going to pull Independents too.
May 9, 2008 10:48 AM | Reply | Permalink
But I think JM jumped the shark when he brazenly "embraced" dubya and agee. Get a room, for God's sake.
May 9, 2008 12:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Catch-22, My friend. McCain needs independants and the republican base. He needs to distance himself from Bush to win the indenpendants but if he distances himself from Bush the hardcore base may not show up. If he goes to the republican base he independant voters will move to Obama en masse. The only solution to his problem is made impossible by a condition inherrant in the problem itself. Couldn't have happened to a nicer political party.
May 9, 2008 1:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Pretty Touchy folks.
You are kinda like people I know who like to abuse the waitstaff, or drive-thru clerks, or support techs.
I want you all to send all of your work from the last month to a web-storage-viewing area, and let us all mince words and parse meanings on your every noun and verb.
When women voters or superdels ...etc... talk about voting for HRC or switching to BHO...they are always asked, or they make mention, of they're loyalty to womanhood or why a good progressive candidate is better than a corporate candidate and trumps gender-loyalty.
When a black superdel commits to clinton before BHO was a major force, then switches, it is one of the salient issues. If a black superdel commits to HRC after BHO was a major force, then switches, it is news also.
Not news in a scurrilous vein, but it is of note and it is of interest.
Richards endorsing BHO was big deal because of switching and because of his Latino heritage.
Ferraro was a two-fer.
Sex and Race are big this year, in many ways because many of us have to choose to be with our sex/race, or explain why we cannot vote with our sex or our race. And many of us are voting so that we can end the divisive role Sex and Race have played for centuries....and get on to harmoniously using the talents of everyone in our own country.
This is not a couple of old white men running....like EVERY time before. There is a lot of explaining we have to do for the kids. Our own parents. And all the illusions that the Powers spoon-fed us (and that we spoon-fed ourselves and each other) are crumbling. None of the old arguments have much bearing now.
May 9, 2008 9:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
I like this post, and wholeheartedly agree with the feelings you express in the last 2 paragraphs....But I must say I am not sure why you think the nice folks here would abuse "waitstaff, drive thru clerks, etc." I personally have done both of those jobs in my life, and understand how tough they can be. If you think the people here live in a vacuum, and only TALK about diversity and tolerance, I think you are mistaken, and being a bit presumptuous.
May 9, 2008 9:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
The way they were ganging up on Eric seemed pretty harsh. It is easy to criticize from the anonymity of the keyboard. The critics seemed like the people I have known who are so harsh on the waitstaff. Just looking for someone to take a pound of flesh, and they do it to the powerless. On line, the anonymity and lack of physical proximity, (and the fact that you can't get punched in the nose) tends to make people a lot more aggressive and belligerent than they would be face to face.
May 9, 2008 10:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
DickTaker, I agree - Eric has been one of te best posters and has strived to remain neutral and maintain some journalistic standards.
I for one want to applaud Eric excellent effort in providing timely and relevant posts for the readers to comment on. I don't know how much better a blogger we could expect.
His AA comments were relevant because of the harsh racial tone struct by Hillary in her latest speeches and the subsequent fall out.
May 9, 2008 11:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for the support. I hope you saw DickTaker as a typo.
I guess if I was going for that joke myself, I would have picked DickGiver.
May 9, 2008 11:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
I got that feeling myself. I thought that the mention of the Rep Payne's race was done to make note that Hillary's USA today interview of a day or two ago would cost her with future African American superdelegates.
May 9, 2008 1:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Clearly you miss the point: It's not just because Eric asked this of Payne who is black, but he wasn't at all curious about DeFazio's reasoning. That's what makes it tetchy.
May 9, 2008 12:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Eric, Rasmussen has called the race for Obama and will soon STOP its daily tracking poll in the Dem race to focus on Obama vs. McCain.
I think that's worthy of a post
May 9, 2008 9:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
Indeed.
May 9, 2008 9:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
No kidding?
Oh, golly, that really is EXCELLENT NEWS! FOR HILLARY!!!!!
May 9, 2008 9:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
You beat me to it! ;)
This is excellent news ... for Hillary LOL!
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/daily_presidential_tracking_poll
May 9, 2008 9:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
I was wondering where the WV poll results were...
May 9, 2008 9:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
They previously had a WV poll at about 65-35 Clinton.
BTW Obama is in Oregon today and tomorrow. It is a little bit too bad he is ignoring WV.
May 9, 2008 9:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
He has more campaign offices there than Clinton, if I'm not mistaken, so he's not completely abandoning the state.
May 9, 2008 10:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
Oy! Ouch!
That sort of feels like your hosts at a dinner party putting on their jammies and turning off the living room lights, while you're still sitting around sipping your cocktails.
Not that it's ever happened to me, of course...heh, heh...
May 9, 2008 10:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
I need to plan my Summer time expenses. Has Hillary arranged my Gas Tax Holiday yet?.
May 9, 2008 9:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
But she's going to win 3 of the next 4 contests! That will change EVERYTHING!! Terry McA. explained it to me on Morning Joe. It all makes sense now. To the White House and beyond!
May 9, 2008 10:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
New York Times weighs in, notable excerpts below:
But we believe just as strongly that Mrs. Clinton will be making a terrible mistake — for herself, her party and for the nation — if she continues to press her candidacy through negative campaigning with disturbing racial undertones. We believe it would also be a terrible mistake if she launches a fight over the disqualified delegations from Florida and Michigan.
We endorsed Mrs. Clinton, and we know that she has a major contribution to make. But instead of discussing her strong ideas, Mrs. Clinton claimed in an interview with USA Today that she would be the better nominee because a recent poll showed that “Senator Obama’s support among working, hard-working Americans, white Americans, is weakening again.” She added: “There’s a pattern emerging here.”
Yes, there is a pattern — a familiar and unpleasant one. It is up to Mrs. Clinton to change it if she hopes to have any shot at winning the nomination or preserving her integrity and her influence if she loses.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/09/opinion/09fri1.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin
By the way, I cancelled my subscription when they hastily endorsed Hillary. It's time to subscirbe to NYT again.
May 9, 2008 10:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
Not until they withdraw their endorsement ?
May 9, 2008 10:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
Nice statement about what her role should be in the remainder of this primary.
But, they still aren't recognizing that she doesn't have a "shot at winning the nomination."
May 9, 2008 11:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
Obama gets another one:
"The public workers' union chief there, a superdelegate, goes with his union and endorses Obama, who now seems to trail Clinton among superdelegates (a truly meaningless, and slightly fuzzy measure) by only single digits."
May 9, 2008 10:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
I am so sad to hear the news that has been coming out.... saying that hillary clinton should drop out of the race and that Obama has won......
I feel its fair to continue the race, even though Obama has clearly won, and here is why....
West Virginia, Kentucky, Oregon, Montana, Puerto Rico still have to vote..... Let them vote, them there voices heard, even though its not going to change anything.
Let Michigan and Florida delegates be seated and let all the votes been counted, let there voices be heard, even though its not going to change anything.
I hope Obama will pick Clinton has his VP.... "DREAM TICKET".... If Obama & Clinton are on a ticket together.... we shall win in November..... Poor John McCain will lose badly.
If Obama chooses some one else, please go with Bill Richardson:)
However, I wish Hillary all the good luck in the next few contestes even though they aren't going to mean much..... GO HILLARY!!!!
May 9, 2008 10:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
Wow. I apologize if I've called you a troll in the past. It appears I've been mistaken.
And while I disagree about the unity ticket, I think an Obama-Richardson ticket would be great.
May 9, 2008 10:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
If it is Obama/Richardson expect to see a lot of the following.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsvJyJsoBLY
I love Obama, but even I find it funny.
May 9, 2008 10:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
I am a 100% Obama supporter, but I think that an Obama / Clinton ticket might actually be a good thing. There has to be a SERIOUS meeting of the minds to get everyone on the same page with the understanding that many of Hillary's people CAN'T be on the campaign (I'm looking at you Lanny Davis, Howard Wolfson and Mark Penn).
In return, I think Obama needs to commit to Universal Healthcare. First by going forward with his plan and evolving it to John E./Hill C's plan during a theoretical 2nd term.
Hillary brings a ton to the ticket, with the possible downside that she may envigorate the Right.
The upside is that the number of excited people that BOTH of them brought into the fold should outnumber the GOP by 20 - 30% in most states.
May 9, 2008 10:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
I agree, there are positives. But I think they're far outweighed by the negatives, namely, her high negatives.
Two other points.
1. I don't see how Hillary and Bill could campaign for Obama after having poured their hearts into tearing him down for 7 months.
2. I think it'd go against the entire premise of his campaign. He can't turn the page on the "old politics" if Bill and Hillary are riding shotgun.
May 9, 2008 10:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
I agree, there are positives. But I think they're far outweighed by the negatives, namely, her high negatives.
Two other points.
1. I don't see how Hillary and Bill could campaign for Obama after having poured their hearts into tearing him down for 7 months.
2. I think it'd go against the entire premise of his campaign. He can't turn the page on the "old politics" if Bill and Hillary are riding shotgun.
May 9, 2008 10:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
Dammit.
May 9, 2008 10:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
Offthread: Since, we are talking about race and now veeps.... I was talking with my boyfriend last night and we tossed the name of district Senator Jenny Oropeza of CA around. Her record is really good. She's done some great things with education, the environment, and transportation in her past roles which could play well with voters. Also, she could possibly bring in women and/or Latin American voters. Finally, she is kind of from way out in left field since she's a state district senator, but I think that also could be good. No messy Washington ties- not politics as usual.
Any thoughts? Penny for them....
May 9, 2008 10:51 AM | Reply | Permalink
Oropeza links (b/c we all like links):
http://dist28.casen.govoffice.com/index.asp?Type=B_BASIC&SEC=%7B9059559B-3D5E-4DC8-A8EE-E5B9DE257F70%7D
May 9, 2008 11:32 AM | Reply | Permalink
http://dist28.casen.govoffice.com/
May 9, 2008 11:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenny_Oropeza
May 9, 2008 11:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'd be all for Richardson as VP. The guy has experience. I was leaning toward him in the long ago mists of time when this all started.
May 9, 2008 11:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
I have a slight preference for Biden over Richardson. Richardson, for all his talent and experience, can be a clumsy campaigner. What is the downside to Biden that I'm just missing? (executive experience?)
May 9, 2008 1:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Prior sexist remarks (about which I was unaware until a couple weeks ago).
I don't have the link.
I like Richardson, Clark, Webb.
May 9, 2008 1:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Guam certified the primary results - BHO won, and the head of the party is supporting the winner - thus, Pilar Lujan is in BHO's column
May 9, 2008 10:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
Link?
May 9, 2008 10:15 AM | Reply | Permalink
The results have been certified, but it looks like Lujan is still uncommitted.
http://www.guampdn.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080509/NEWS01/805090318&referrer=FRONTPAGECAROUSEL
May 9, 2008 10:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
I believe she had said previously that she would support the winner of the caucus, who of course is now known to be Obama.
May 9, 2008 11:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
William Safire
May 9, 2008 10:10 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yes. Please, I beg everyone here, learn the actual meaning of the phrase "beg the question". This repeated misuse is grammatical nails-on-a-chalkboard for me.
http://begthequestion.info/
Just say "raises the question" when that's what you mean.
May 9, 2008 10:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm glad I'm not the only one. It is nails on a chalk board when people use that phrase wrong, especially when they're writers. When I see people use it wrong, my grammar-snob side looks down her nose and sniffs delicately, "What...Did you just say?"
May 9, 2008 12:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Late Update: Just to clarify a certain point, Payne's switch does beg the question of whether Hillary's statement about winning more white voters has alienated her in any way from black supporters.
How about white, pink, purple, blue, strawberry, vanila supporters
...or just supporters- period?
May 9, 2008 10:14 AM | Reply | Permalink
Point being, when a Black lawmaker endorses you assume he exclusively represents exclusively black supporter and when a Italian American White lawmaker endorses he represents all his constituents...see the flaw?
By the way call be Green Supporter, I prefer that one. Atleast my color is based on the issues.
May 9, 2008 10:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
Silly Kash, don't forget the critical question of how mauve supporters are viewing HRC's campaign at the moment...
May 9, 2008 10:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
!!!!!!!!!!!!!
May 9, 2008 10:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
damn, that was supposed to be part of the secondary, nonsense wave!
May 9, 2008 10:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
Throw it in there anyway every now and then. Just for emphasis.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:)
May 9, 2008 11:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yay, way to go Pete!! And all the others...
:o)
May 9, 2008 10:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
HC '08, only once have I ever seen you post something that wasn't positive and, dare I say, hopeful. Your faith and enthusiasm is really great, and I mean that very sincerely. We should all remember that the best way to support our candidate is to be so positive.
May 9, 2008 10:23 AM | Reply | Permalink
Also, deep breaths, my fellows. I think the fact an Af-Am superdelegate is switching is, perhaps, news. Wasn't clearthinker calling for people to write non-white supers and ask them to come out against Clinton's race-baiting?
May 9, 2008 10:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
Anne,
It is not news that an African American switched his sup vote, it is news that a hillary supporter switched his vote (as has a few others) I think Eric's explanation is lacking as to why he chose to use that particular identifier as opposed to just a 'clinton' supporter. this primary is not black vs white and to boil it down as such is insulting.
May 9, 2008 10:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
Even though it is obvious that Clinton has virtually no chance of winning the nomination the continued arrogant, self-congratulatory atmosphere only reinforces my expectation, and I suspect other Clinton supporters, to sit out the election rather than vote for either candidate.
I hope you think you can win this without the Clinton supporters because that is a realistic possibility.
Clinton is still the best choice.
May 9, 2008 10:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
I take solace in the fact that for every fogu2 there is another_reader and HillaryClinton08.
May 9, 2008 10:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
Seconded.
May 9, 2008 11:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thirded.
BTW, nitpicker1, you nailed it in your earlier post @ 11.37.
May 9, 2008 12:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well that math suggests at least 1/3 of the Clinton supporters will sit out.
Happy?
May 9, 2008 12:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
If 1/3 of Hillary's supporters are that petty and delusional, then so be it.
May 9, 2008 12:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Now that's persuasive.
Way to unite!
May 9, 2008 12:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's the truth.
If you're going to have a hissy fit because your candidate lost and sit out, I'm not going to waste my time. I shouldn't have to tell you how important this election is and how disastrous McCain's policies would be. If you want to cut off your nose to spite your face, go right ahead. But I think the majority of Clinton supporters care more about their party and ending the war and healthcare and the Supreme Court and torture than pouting about Hillary’s loss.
May 9, 2008 12:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Clearly a person who photoshopped a candidate's head onto the body of a chicken is here for civilized political discourse.
If there's been arrogance or self-congratulation here, it's hardly been one-sided.
May 9, 2008 10:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
yeah, because another_reader and HillaryClinton08 are Democrats and fogo2 is, quite simply, a Republican trying to fan the flmaes. It's quite obvious, especially now.
May 9, 2008 10:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
Please don't sit out the election. The world cannot afford any more Republican rule. Obama may not be the best, but if you believed in Hillary's policy positions like I did, he will at least try to enact them. He may be hypocritical at times, but I think his heart is in the right place.
May 9, 2008 11:10 AM | Reply | Permalink
I agree with the first part. But I still have serious doubts about Obama's capability. It is based on factual evidence but also a gut feeling. I don't want four years of hope with excuses. We need four years of positive action. There is a tendency to confuse the two among Obamites.
May 9, 2008 12:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
You'll have over five months to take a good look at Obama, and McCain, and figure out who would be the best president. But your obvious hatred for Obama might be too strong for you to let reason prevail.
May 9, 2008 11:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
As I've said repeatedly, I don't hate Obama. I just don't think he is ready and may not be presidential material. Obamites confuse the two as they have taken to hating to Clinton on a personal level.
May 9, 2008 12:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
But if you hold core Democratic issues with any sort of conviction, supporting McCain over Obama is simply impossible. You may like Clinton over Obama, but that's no longer the contest at hand. It's now Obama vs. McCain, and the differences are stark.
May 9, 2008 12:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
I didn't say I support McCain. I said I might sit out.
May 9, 2008 12:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's the cowards way out. But, have at it.
May 9, 2008 12:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
you haven't said that you do not support McCain either.
May 9, 2008 12:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
For crying out loud show and vote on the down ticket races at the very least.
May 9, 2008 1:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
fanning the flames and scavaging for concern....
May 9, 2008 12:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fairly ironic from someone who has that avatar and will sit out the general....
May 9, 2008 12:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
not to much choosing left in the race about now....
May 9, 2008 12:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm not sure I could vote for a ticket with her on it. She would be a nightmare to have around... trying to take control of things. I am ready for a clean break from the Clintons. There are other choices who could heal the division.
There was a time I could have stomached a Clinton as VP. That ended when she said McCain had passed the CIC standard and Obama had not.
She closed that door herself.
May 9, 2008 10:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
Bill in action in Idaho.
Open Mouth - Insert Foot - Catch some flak.
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0508/Umbrage_in_Idaho.html#comments
May 9, 2008 10:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
Actually, I think most Clinton supporters love their country and care about electing a Democrat more than licking their wounds and don't think their own interpersonal drama is somehow more important than the fate of millions who would suffer under a McCain administration.
May 9, 2008 10:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
Unfortunately, most is not enough.
We need damn near all.
May 9, 2008 11:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm sure all Clinton supporters love their country, just as Obama supporters do. Now, together let's get to work and make it even better!
May 9, 2008 11:48 AM | Reply | Permalink
And McCain supporters love their country too. What's your point?
May 9, 2008 12:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
>sigh
May 9, 2008 12:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Bill in action in Idaho.
Open Mouth - Insert Foot - Catch some flak.
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0508/Umbrage_in_Idaho.html#comments
May 9, 2008 11:01 AM | Reply | Permalink
He's going for the hard working elk vote. I'm sorry, I mean the hard working, WHITE elk vote.
May 9, 2008 4:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
But why then did Senator Feinstein -after hearing personally all about Hillary's "strategory" from Hillary, decide to "stand by her"?
Senator Feinstein's days were already numbered after FISA and Mukasey. Maybe she's in agreement to smack the party's ass on the way out their respective doors?
The most unforgivable legacy left by the Clinton's is also an 'bitterly' ironic one:
They came into a party that supposedly had a 'big umbrella' but, like vampires faced with a rising and searing sun, they placed the very bodies of their own brethren in the suns path until all that remainded to protect them was a pile of ashes and -no one to hold the umbrella.
May 9, 2008 11:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
Or maybe Feinstein agrees that Clinton is the best choice.
May 9, 2008 12:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
ABC is worthless, he hasn't gotten there yet, but he will soon.
May 9, 2008 11:10 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm gratified to see that others have already spoken out about the shocking emphasis on "African American" in the report at the head of this thread. This isn't supposed to be the Third Reich we're living in, for God's sake.
DirkVA
Mongrel German-Welsh-Scottish-English-Jew
May 9, 2008 11:12 AM | Reply | Permalink
One other point, when CNN and MSNBC and the blubbering Clintonettes keep pushing this white vote thing, they never look to the general statistics that prove them wrong.
The spineless Dems have NEVER had the majority of white voters in recent elections.
And John Edwards -a white guy/Senator homeboy from his own Southern state of North Carolina, if I remember correctly, won his race with just 41% of the white vote.
Obama -a black guy/Senator won the white vote in that same state by 40%.
Hillary rightfully focuses on the importance -to her -of Democrat only primaries, because it isn't the country as a whole that shows marked signs of racism and bigotry.
It's the 'insiders' of the Democratic party itself.
May 9, 2008 11:15 AM | Reply | Permalink
Precisely!
They need to tell ALL the facts. Does anyone know Rachel Maddow or Olberman's or Cris Matthews e mail? They need to start telling the WHOLE WHITE VOTER truth:
Just a reminder, since everyone seems to be forgetting:
According to CNN's 1996 exit poll, Bill Clinton lost the white vote (Dole 46%, Clinton 43%, Perot 9%). He lost the white male vote by an even larger margin (Dole 49%, Clinton 38%, Perot 11%). And he lost gun owners badly (Dole 51%, Clinton 38%, Perot 10%). However, Clinton won the popular vote overall 49%-41%-8%, and he won 70% of the electoral votes.
In 2000 -- when Al Gore won the popular vote by half a million votes -- he lost white males to Bush by a whopping 60%-36%, according to CNN's exit poll. He lost men overall 53%-42%. He lost whites overall 54%-42%. He lost gun owners 61%-36%. He lost small-town voters 59%-38% and rural voters 59%-37%. He lost the Midwest overall 49%-48%.
I'm not saying these are goals to aspire to. I'm saying it's a myth that Democrats had Joe Sixpack in their back pockets until that snooty arugula-eater Barack Obama came along, and it's a myth that they suffer crushing defeats when bowlers and boilermaker-drinkers aren't on board.
*****
And while we're talking about voting blocs: Since it's now an article of faith that Barack Obama will lose every voting bloc to Republican John McCain that he lost to fellow Democrat Hillary Clinton by essentially the same margin, shouldn't we extend that rule to Clinton as well? Following that logic, shouldn't we assume that she'll get less than 10% of the black vote against John McCain, just as she does against Obama?
May 9, 2008 11:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
Um, are you guys Republican. Shouldn't you be on Drudge or something?
Well, if you feel like it you should read this:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/media/jan-june08/race_05-07.html
May 9, 2008 12:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
"The supers, they don't love you, anymore..."
Roy Orbison has a song for Clinton.
May 9, 2008 11:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
Um, are you guys Republican. Shouldn't you be on Drudge or something?
Well, if you feel like it you should read this:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/media/jan-june08/race_05-07.html
May 9, 2008 12:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
stupid TPM posting errors! Grrrrrrrrr!
May 9, 2008 12:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hater alert!
Divider alert!
May 9, 2008 12:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
No, I merely refer to the language. Enough with the "white" this, "black" that. Those are the dividers.
Though I do think that is an interesting statement coming from one such as yourself, since all you seem to do is bring up divisive issues and state polarizing opinions on these boards.
What issue do want to bring up now in the hopes of finding where our "concern" lies?
May 9, 2008 12:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hillary tells another of her brazen LIES, and the Media does not call her on it. She claimed, yesterday, that there was pressure put on her to drop out, after Iowa. That is a complete lie, from the Queen of Lies.
By BETH FOUHY – 19 hours ago
CHARLESTON, W.Va. (AP)
At a rally under the dome of the West Virginia Capitol, Clinton dismissed calls for her to drop out as "deja vu all over again." She said she had faced similar pressure before going on to win in New Hampshire, Ohio, Texas and Pennsylvania.
May 9, 2008 12:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm still with her.
May 9, 2008 12:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Clinton is calling for a debate in Oregon?!
::sigh::
May 9, 2008 12:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Think I'll keep the Chicken-O up.
I'd have thought that at this point the Obamites would have a different attitude. Assholes to the end. Can't join that club.
$50 to Clinton.
May 9, 2008 12:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fogu, you keep up this act like you might be convinced to switch to Obama if us supporters were just nice to you.
No one believes it. You've never like him. You won't like him. It has nothing to do with us. It has everything to do with you.
Sorry you wasted $50.
May 9, 2008 12:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
I couldn't care less about an avatar. The debate issue is a non-starter, a transparent grab for a broke campaign to get free air time.
And please keep sending Clinton that money. She needs to pay off her enormous debts before she can fold up for good.
May 9, 2008 12:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
$50 for Mark Penn and for CAFTA, if that's true.
May 9, 2008 12:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hilarious.
May 9, 2008 12:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Rep. Clyburn has an interesting National Journal interview on the USA Today comments.
http://www.nationaljournal.com/njonline/no_20080509_6743.php
May 9, 2008 12:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
When will you Obamabot peons learn? It's not about who has the most superdelegates, pledged delegates, or the popular vote! It's doesn't matter who the voters or the Party wants to be the nominee!
What's important is to acknowledge that Queen Hillary is entitled to the White House. You see, last year she was "inevitable". That's a sort of verbal contract which obligates the Party to turn the nomination over to her whether they want to or not.
Also, non-college educated whities are all racist! Can't you see?! Why can't anyone see?!!
May 9, 2008 12:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
fogo2, let me state that personally, i believe you are a republican. mainly, because i've been given no proof to the contrary. you consistently fan the flames of controversy and bring up divisive and polarizing issues. pretty much what a republican operative would like to do in a more democrat based format like this.
However, giving you the benefit of the doubt: what's your big concern about Obama that makes you consider sitting out the election: racial voting, experience, matchups against McCain, the pastor issue, or what?
May 9, 2008 12:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
It is the sum of all the parts.
The way I see it, he is in the interview process for an extremely important job. Having hired many people I've heard all the promises and platitudes you can imagine. But the rubber meets the road when I ask them to give me demonstrable proof of their capabilities. Hard evidence. A verifiable portfolio.
Good intentions are not enough. Knowledge of the positions responsibilities is not enough. Speaking well is not enough. Obama has not passed the interview process IMO.
He's an extremely risky hire.
I believe Clinton has the hard evidence of successful accomplishment and the field experience that gives me the comfort level that she is a good hire.
BTW, I have never voted for a Republican...ever.
May 9, 2008 1:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ok, fair enough. I apologize for my troll accusations and I will for go them in the future.
Keep in mind that experience (which is what a portfolio measures among other things) can go either way. What about Clinton's portfolio is so great to you? I haven't found any breakthrough legislation proposed by her and what legislation she has tried to get to the floor has been met with no co-sponsors, again as far as I've found.
May 9, 2008 1:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Also, as a side-bar: what Dem candidates in the past(national or otherwise) have you been excited about besides Hillary? Any other senators, etc. you like. As Obama man I'm rather fond of Feingold, for example.
May 9, 2008 1:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't think there is any amount of "prior work experience" that prepares one for the Presidency. There is nothing like it in the world and, for me, I'm voting for the person. How he/she handles himself in pressure situations, judgements on key issues, etc...
May 9, 2008 1:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
I concur, but I do believe it's a valid argument, one I don't agree with, but still valid.
Of course, when it comes to experience--
http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2008/Images/Scatterplot-rank-vs-experience-labeled.jpg
A similar graph was in TIME as well (though not online). I think it's interesting if not scientific.
May 9, 2008 2:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Honestly there are very few on a national level. Locally I was vrey supportive of our mayor in San Francisco, Gavin Newsom. And it has been a bipolar experience with some stuff he's done being great, and some horrid. There are no guarantees and if Obama were elected he might be great...or not.
With Clinton she has first hand knowledge of the workings, the pressures, the competing interests of the world stage. So in some ways there is the benefit of incumbency. And whether you thought it was a travesty or not, her attempt to cure the health crisis was the right thing to do. Maybe ahead of it's time. She's extremely knowledgable about the intricacies of not just the position but also of the issues. More so than Obama. And the whole Lewinsky affair must have been a personal travesty, amazing pressure. To her credit I think she handled it on the public stage admirably. She been tested. She's been there.
And to hyperRevue I would say that being in the executive position is an experience that counts heavily. And though Bill was the president, she was certainly in the thick of being a silent co-executive.
I have friends who've know her personally for many years and I'll tell you, they say this (paraphrased of course): "she fabricates stuff, but I still love her and she's still my friend and, I still trust her. She's loyal."
Which one of you hasn't made up stuff? We all have. We all do. So I'll ask you, which stuff has Obama made up? That why I think he is deceptive. Because his followers think he tells nothing but the truth. He doesn't. Becasue nobody in that world does and survives. What is he not telling the truth about?
May 9, 2008 2:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Your friends description of her could just as easily be used to describe the current president.
Anecdotal descriptions of someone doesn't make the person, far from it.
Actions speak louder than words, and so far I don't see all that many positives from Hillary as of late.
May 9, 2008 2:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fogu,
You're not a troll? Wow. Y'know, you do sound like one when you make all those short quips and nonsensical pronouncements. But when you actually take the time to write, you come off much better - I still disagree with some of what you said, but at least there's a mind to engage with over there. And from S.F. too? So, we actually have ONE thing in common?
Agreed on Gavin. That makes TWO. * shudder * :-)
I do disagree on your overly pessimistic assumptions about Obama and his closet. I'm sure there's a few things there, but, y'know what, I can't run around assuming he's done a bunch of nasty stuff. We can assume just as easily that HRC has got a bunch more crap in her closet we haven't seen yet either. And the R's have been building the dossier on the Clintons for quite a while now. They've known since 2000 that she would eventually be a candidate - that's 8 years worth of research just waiting to be unleashed in the fall. They've had less time to work on Obama, and he's younger and had less time to fill his closet than she has. The whole point of dirt-digging and mud-slinging is to drive up the negative numbers. Obama's got room to move and remain viable. Clinton's negatives started high, and have gone deep into the red zone. She can't afford a single hit.
So, there's a quick counter-argument made easily, off the cuff. We could each pull out stats and poll numbers and keep going back and forth, but, ultimately, it is just reading tea-leaves: pure speculation on our parts as to who's the more vulnerable candidate in the fall.
The better place to look is who has the good qualities that we want. Most of us have made our judgements known in that regard, and the results favor Obama. The deal is all but over, and it's time to unite around the candidate people have chosen. Hang on to Clinton for a while longer, if you must, but please don't go around making unprovable allegations about electability and hidden issues about a candidate who's proved his ability to wage a successful campaign despite some really negative press.
It's time to stop attacking the likely nominee and focus out aim on McCain.
May 9, 2008 4:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fogu,
You're not a troll? Wow. Y'know, you do sound like one when you make all those short quips and nonsensical pronouncements. But when you actually take the time to write, you come off much better - I still disagree with some of what you said, but at least there's a mind to engage with over there. And from S.F. too? So, we actually have ONE thing in common?
Agreed on Gavin. That makes TWO. * shudder * :-)
I do disagree on your overly pessimistic assumptions about Obama and his closet. I'm sure there's a few things there, but, y'know what, I can't run around assuming he's done a bunch of nasty stuff. We can assume just as easily that HRC has got a bunch more crap in her closet we haven't seen yet either. And the R's have been building the dossier on the Clintons for quite a while now. They've known since 2000 that she would eventually be a candidate - that's 8 years worth of research just waiting to be unleashed in the fall. They've had less time to work on Obama, and he's younger and had less time to fill his closet than she has. The whole point of dirt-digging and mud-slinging is to drive up the negative numbers. Obama's got room to move and remain viable. Clinton's negatives started high, and have gone deep into the red zone. She can't afford a single hit.
So, there's a quick counter-argument made easily, off the cuff. We could each pull out stats and poll numbers and keep going back and forth, but, ultimately, it is just reading tea-leaves: pure speculation on our parts as to who's the more vulnerable candidate in the fall.
The better place to look is who has the good qualities that we want. Most of us have made our judgements known in that regard, and the results favor Obama. The deal is all but over, and it's time to unite around the candidate people have chosen. Hang on to Clinton for a while longer, if you must, but please don't go around making unprovable allegations about electability and hidden issues about a candidate who's proved his ability to wage a successful campaign despite some really negative press.
It's time to stop attacking the likely nominee and focus our aim on McCain.
May 9, 2008 4:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Weird. Don't know how I got posted twice. Sorry 'bout that tho'.
May 9, 2008 4:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
I wonder how many times he was called "Uncle Tom" before he finally conceded.
May 9, 2008 1:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Michelle Obama’s Writings Display Disturbing Racism
Americans must ask: ‘Do we really want this woman in the White House’?
By Pat Shannan
Just what kind of “change” is Barack Obama offering and just how much influence has his wife, Michelle had over him in their married life the past two decades? It appears that Michelle LaVaughn Robinson Obama does not look into a crowd of Obama supporters and see Americans. She sees black people and white people, eternally conflicted with one another.
In her senior thesis at Princeton University, Michelle LaVaughn, the future wife of the Democratic presidential candidate, stated that America was a nation founded on “crime and hatred.” Moreover, she stated that whites in America were “ineradicably racist.”
The 1985 thesis, entitled Princeton-Educated Blacks and the Black Community, was written under her maiden name, Michelle LaVaughn. Michelle Obama writes that the path she chose by attending Princeton would likely lead to her “further integration and/or assimilation into a white cultural and social structure that will only allow me to remain on the periphery of society, never becoming a full participant.”
Not only does she see separate black and white societies in America, but emphatically elevates black over white in her world. As first lady, would she insist the White House be painted black? That’s been a standard joke in this venue since the civil rights movement of the 1960s, but this next ominous quote from her thesis suggests that she would in fact urge her husband toward just such an extreme position.
“There was no doubt in my mind that as a member of the black community, I am obligated to this community and will utilize all of my present and future resources to benefit the black community first and foremost.”
She seems to justify those feelings with what she claims to see on the other side of the issue: “Predominantly white universities like Princeton are socially and academically designed to cater to the needs of the white students, comprising the bulk of their enrollments.”
Michelle added in her thesis that to “whites at Princeton, it often seems as if, to them, [I] will always be black first.” However, it was reported by a fellow black classmate, “if those ‘whites at Princeton ‘ really saw Michelle as one who always would ‘be black first,’ it seems that she gave them that impression.”
Michelle Obama’s poll of black alumni concludes that other black former students at Princeton do not share her obsession with blackness. But rather than celebrate, she is horrified that black alumni identify with our common American culture more than they value the color of their skins.
“I hoped that these findings would help me conclude that despite the high degree of identification with whites as a result of the educational and occupational path that black Princeton alumni follow, the alumni would still maintain a certain level of identification with the black community. However, these findings do not support this possibility,” she wrote.
Most black alumni ignored her racist questionnaire. Only 89 students responded, out of 400 who were asked for input.
The thesis provides a trove of Mrs. Obama’s thoughts and world view seen through a race-based prism. For a potential first lady, this is a very divisive view that would do untold damage to race relations in this country in a Barack Hussein Obama administration.
During this presidential election year in which the term “transparency” has been frequently bandied about, candidates have buried a number of potentially revealing documents and papers. In Hillary Rodham Clinton’s case, there’s been a clamoring for tax records, White House memos and other material the candidate’s team has chosen to keep from release.
The 96-page, 1985 Princeton thesis, restricted from release by the school’s Mudd Library, has also been the subject of recent scrutiny. Commentator Jonah Goldberg remarked on National Review Online, “A
reader in the know informs me that Michelle Obama’s thesis is unavailable until Nov. 5, 2008, at the Princeton library. I wonder why.”
“Why a restricted thesis?” asked Pastor Louis Lapides on his website,
Thinking Outside the Blog. “Is the concern based on what’s in the thesis? Will Michelle Obama appear to be too black for white America or not black enough for black America?”
Will an Obama administration really offer constructive “change” or just an intellectually refined racism?
May 14, 2008 11:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
SUPERDELEGATES ARE LILKE SUPERMAN EXCEPT I DON'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT THEM. FUCK SUPERDELEGATES
July 13, 2008 5:09 AM | Reply | Permalink