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Zogby: Debate Produced No Big Movement In Pennsylvania For Either Candidate
Did Hillary get a bounce after Obama's rough night in the debate on Wednesday?
Not if you believe Zogby's tracking poll of Pennsylvania. It finds that yesterday Hillary edged up two points from Wednesday, the day of the debate, while Obama only lost one. She now leads by four points, 47%-43%.
One bright spot for Hillary that could have something to do with Obama's "small town" comments: Zogby found that 56% say Hillary better understands the state, while only 28% -- half as many -- said the same of Obama.
Still, if Zogby is to be believed, the numbers are way too close for comfort for Hillary.
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Zogby is not to be believed.
April 18, 2008 9:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hillary is NOT to be believed
April 18, 2008 9:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
So what this tells us is that Hillary supporters and Obama supporters are staying put. Such that the Democratic nominee will be decided by the superdelegates. More importantly, all of Hillary's negative attacks are doing nothing but hurting Obama's chances in the general election.
Hillary knows the attack ads are not helping her so her only goal at this point is to destroy the most likely Democratic nominee by hurting his general election electability.
This is an issue that the Democratic party leaders need to put a halt to.
April 18, 2008 9:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
Greg, congratulations. You finally found a way, no matter how tenuous, to link something on the ground to Obama's "small town" comments.
Mazel tov!
April 18, 2008 9:48 AM | Reply | Permalink
yeah, this post about how Hillary got no bounce after the debate and how the numbers are too close for comfort for her is so biased against Obama
so silly
April 18, 2008 9:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
Greg,
You don't see your tone when you reread your comments?
Are you denying that this poll and Zogby's description that there's NO movement, doesn't bother you?
Your sarcasm and disappointment in the poll number s not moving is obvious in your comment - it oozes off the monitor.
Your petty disengenous in your denial, although I will admit that is it possible you don't realize you're doing it.
The unconscious works in mysterious ways.
April 18, 2008 9:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
I pick on Greg A LOT, but I don't see it this time. His comment was a little snarky, but the original post seemed fairly workmanlike.
April 18, 2008 10:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
Greg, I think they said that Hillary "better understands" PA because she ordered her Cheesesteak with Whiz, and Obama can't bowl for shit...
April 18, 2008 10:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
Greg,
I really don't know why you bother to defend yourself to these commenters. Some are interested in conversation and some are obviously not. Responding to the ones who are not will only invite more irrational comments.
April 18, 2008 10:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
It's true. You are obsessed with inserting the small town quote into any post you can fit it in. In this case you're reducing your analysis of an open question to one variable, mostly because, like George Stephanopoulos, that's the variable you want to talk about.
Seems like the fact that Hillary once lived in Pennsylvania, and Obama didn't, might weigh more heavily on people's responses to this question. No, no! It must be something he said in a fundraiser. That's the only possibility worth considering.
April 18, 2008 10:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
It doesn't really matter if the numbers are too close for comfort for Hillary or not at this point, does it? What's really too close for comfort is the day she inevitably drops out of the race.
April 18, 2008 10:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
I wonder how long they've been keeping that "who better understands the state" poll. I would imagine it's set stagnant at that number since the beginning and would remain that way.
It seems like precisely the number that shows why Hillary had a twenty point lead until recently. It's her state to win, all the way. I hope Obama gets it close, but honestly, I don't care much. I don't see it affecting the race much, unless he were to lose by twenty-five or something.
But Hillary doesn't even lose states by that much.
April 18, 2008 9:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
what is it with the paranoia of Obama supporters? Mean ole Hillary wants pretty boy to lose so she can run in 2012. oh brother.
and the whole "I saw St. Barak on Youtube and my pants are still messy" sentiment I see here so much is c-r-e-e-p-y in the extreme. I might come in my pants if an unusually nice looking girl were nuzzling her lips against my crotch for an extended period of time, but I sure wouldn't come in my pants just because I saw some politician on TV.
April 18, 2008 9:51 AM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, look everybody's favorite racist College Republican is back for a troll.
April 18, 2008 9:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
Creepy indeed, Mr. Nuckols.
April 18, 2008 9:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
I commiserate with you, my brother. When a lying, manipulating, mud-sucking politician like Hillary takes center stage, I get soft too. Forget about coming.
But when you have a gutsy, ballsy, people-minded, renegade politician like the don, Barack Obama on stage -- well, you better cover your eyes, sweetie!
April 18, 2008 9:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
Oh my god. It's too early for this! haha
April 18, 2008 10:01 AM | Reply | Permalink
A class act! Bravo, sir!
April 18, 2008 9:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
cheese and crackers, milo, learn how to spell cum if you want to throw it around.
April 18, 2008 10:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
Wow. You are truly an excellent example of whatever species you belong to.
April 18, 2008 10:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hillary is sweating. Her polyester pantsuit is giving her fits. The wedgie is in deep.
She needs some relief.
Let PA relieve her of her nomination bid, forthwithly.
April 18, 2008 9:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
Lately, and I mean in the past several weeks, Hillary has developed a chronic deer in the headlights look, and I am not talking about the headlights on a Toyota hybrid --- I'm talking about an 18-wheeler coming down the pike.
This morning the Times has an article to the effect that the superdelegates are not only not buying her "Obama is not electable" pitch, but it is turning them against her. Why? Because she is distracting people from the real issues, and that will hurt the Democrats' chances in November.
I read elsewhere (would provide link but I forgot where I read it) that since Mar. 5, some 60 supers have declared for Obama vs. 6 for Hillary. Ickes and his bunch are talking in a wind tunnel. Nobody is hearing them.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/18/us/politics/18dems.html?hp
It is effectively over for Hillary. It is just a question of when she can climb down from her delusions and accept reality.
April 18, 2008 10:12 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hillary was good on Colbert last night, I'll give her that.
April 18, 2008 9:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
Let's hope she brings that sort of attitude to Obama's cause if he goes on to be the nominee. She should've run friendlier, as she was on Colbert, no doubt. Might be a different story today if she had.
But if she can play ball and be nice and funny like that on the stump for Obama, we'll be in good shape.
April 18, 2008 10:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
She wasn't bad if she were the only guest, but Obama and Edwards make her look like a card board cut out in comparison.
April 18, 2008 10:01 AM | Reply | Permalink
True.
I wish Obama had been there in person.
It seems like Clinton does a lot of these shows in person while Obama is always via satellite.
April 18, 2008 10:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
Did Edwards fly to PA just for that?
Seems kind of desperate of him.
April 18, 2008 10:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
Agreed.
April 18, 2008 10:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
Actually, the image of his campaigning with the big audience behind him contrasted with Hillary having the time to swing by prior to a huge primary, while subtle, is effective in showing their priorities.
April 18, 2008 10:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
That's an interesting take I hadn't considered. Thanks.
April 18, 2008 10:23 AM | Reply | Permalink
The reason she's got more time is that The Elephant In The Room (aka ex-Prez Bill) and the former first daughter are doing 5 campaign stops a day each on her behalf. The poor black-irish candidate Barack O'Bama, until such time as cloning advances sufficiently for him to duplicate or triplicate himself, has do all his stumping for himself. No wonder he's too busy to get to Colbert's studio in person :-)
April 18, 2008 11:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
What's going on here? The other day, you guys reported that Zogby had Obama up. Now you're saying they're saying Obama is slightly down, but not losing ground. Does Zogby have more then one poll?
You guys also might want to put the Pollster.com PA Chart in the sidebar. You have the national dems (and national republicans, which is totally pointless) there but no PA!
April 18, 2008 9:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
Finally, the "as yet" effect.
April 18, 2008 9:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
http://news.yahoo.com/page/election-2008-political-pulse-obama-gains;_ylt=AmDDFz.AtGLmE_Rr5H6THgus0NUE
In a dramatic reversal, an Associated Press-Yahoo! News poll found that a clear majority of Democratic voters now say Sen. Barack Obama has a better chance of defeating Republican Sen. John McCain in November than Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton.
While Obama and Clinton are both sustaining dents and dings from their lengthy presidential fight, the former first lady is clearly suffering more. Democratic voters no longer see her as the party's strongest contender for the White House.
April 18, 2008 9:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah dude, WE'RE the ones that are "creepy."
April 18, 2008 10:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
Movement is good for Obama. Even if you assume that the undecided voters break for Clinton in PA like they did in Ohio (60-40 for Hillary) that only leaves her with a 5-6 point win. Not nearly enough to change the delegate math.
April 18, 2008 10:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
Should the headline on the front page read:
"Zogby: Clinton Barely Edges Out Obama in PA"
That's what this is saying, whether you believ it or not.
The news is she is neck and neck. She's "barely" ahead. The news isn't that she "edge" him out. She's supposed to be winning this thing by 20 points.
April 18, 2008 10:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
Rasmussen poll today has Clinton 3 points ahead. It's not a particularly good poll either, so I am going to say it's Clinton at 9 points ahead.
But Obama is going on a whistlestop train tour up in Erie and other upstate PA towns and if it's anything like his bus tour, that he will get a boost from this.
April 18, 2008 10:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
Zogby basically shows the same number for Obama as every other poll. The only variables in all these polls in PA are the numbers for "undecided" and for Hillary. When you push them to make a call, Hillary's number goes up and Obama's doesn't. That should tell you that on Tuesday, Hillary will pick most of 'em up if they vote, just like in Ohio.
Hate to be such a buzz-killer, Obama supporters, but I don't want anyone getting all Chicken Littley and gloomy and doomy if it happens because they were taken by surprise. Bottom line is that Pennsylvania has more than its fair share of people who live on the ragged edge. Every day is is so cram packed with risks for them, and at such long odds, that they are understandably risk averse. Just like Ohio, except more so.
So, on one hand, you've got this lady running an old-style campaign full of old school plays and old fashioned promises who claims she can play Trivial Pursuit better than the Republicans. On the other, you've got a guy who says that as long as we're playing politics by the Republican's rules, we will lose, so you've got to trust me when I tell you I've written a new book of rules with which we can win.
Of course they're going with Hillary. If every new thing that's happened for the last twenty years has turned out bad for you, your framework for analysis is "known = good, unknown = bad."
Just that simple. The fact that our party's penchant for going with the "low risk" candidate is why we keep getting slaughtered at the polls is irrelevant. They've got too much risk in their lives to deliberately take on any more.
So just keep in mind, if he holds her to 8, its a big win and we celebrate. If he really gets creamed, we shake it off move on to Indiana, where it could be close, and to NC where he's going to crush her.
April 18, 2008 10:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
NCSteve,
Good comment. I agree with almost all of what you say. I do think, however, that it will be interesting to see how the numbers move over these last few days before the vote.
One question: if the period over which everything has been going bad for the PA voters is 20 yrs, it started in the late 80's? Which would mean it was going on throughout the entire Clinton presidency. So the "known" included his 2 terms? So, were the Clinton yrs. bad or good for the PA voters?
I happen to agree with you that they are risk-adverse, but why is reprising the Clinton yrs. a better choice than Obama, if things have been bad for 20 yrs. now?
April 18, 2008 12:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's true. You are obsessed with inserting the small town quote into any post you can fit it in. In this case you're reducing your analysis of an open question to one variable, because, like George Stephanopoulos, that's the variable you want to talk about. You're not biased against Obama, but you do seem to be biased towards vapid regurgitation of CW.
Seems like the fact that Hillary once lived in Pennsylvania, and Obama didn't, might weigh more heavily on people's responses to this question. No, no! It must be something he said in a fundraiser. That's the only possibility worth considering.
April 18, 2008 10:23 AM | Reply | Permalink
Clinton's Goal: Win Big in Pennsylvania,
Sow Doubts Over Obama.
That' the WSJ headline right now:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120847005353924485.html
April 18, 2008 10:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
There have been a lot of comments about Zogby's reliability and what the headline should read as, etc. The key point that is being missed here, and Zogby himself is partially to blame based on his own headline, is that the difference between the candidates' levels of support is within the margin of error. This means that the poll found no significant difference between the candidates' levels of support. In statistics "no significant difference" means that one has failed to find any difference at all. The truth is that Zogby's data shows a tie. The term "statistical tie" is not needed here because we are examining statistics so any outcome is "statistical". To be sure they are not actually tied, this poll just cannot tell us which one is winning. Based on these results it could be either candidate.
Journalists almost never get this right; I think it's because until you've failed a statistics exam because you said something like "The rate of recovery in population A edged out that of population B by 4%" when the margin of error was 4.1% it's never going to stick in your head that differences between subjects within the margin of error actually show, specifically, NO difference. I have personally flunked students for that. They should really add a stats class to journalism curriculums.
April 18, 2008 10:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
Kristen Bell's smile is not to be believed.
April 18, 2008 10:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends'
It tell such a lovely lie.
April 18, 2008 11:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
Everyday I'm checking out the polls and wondering if at the end of the day they really mean that much. Maybe I'm just polled out.
April 18, 2008 10:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
BO can order a cheesesteak with the best of them (and in more than one language). BO can play hoops with the best of them!
Pennsylvanians, the world turns its lonely eyes to you ...
end it on April 22.
When in that voting booth remember Hillary is the corporate whore and doesn't give a damn about your struggles after the votes are counted.
April 18, 2008 10:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
Check out the article “Barack’s “Underground” Friends” http://savagepolitics.com/?p=291
http://www.savagepolitics.com
brilliant writing plus it offers a great community in which to discuss. The editor actually takes time to answer and the political humor section is awesome!!!
April 18, 2008 10:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
I smell unrelated spam....
And it stinks.
April 18, 2008 10:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
I was annoyed by ur spamming, but now that I read the front page "editorial", I am simply irritated that I have lost 3 minutes of my life that I can never get back.
April 18, 2008 11:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
Check out the polls from Ohio leading up to the primary: http://www.pollster.com/08-OH-Dem-Pres-Primary.php
The resemblance with the Pa. trend is a little unsettling. Of course, most of those missed the late movement to Hillary. The question is whether they'll go her way this time as well. I suspect they will and she'll enjoy a healthy win.
April 18, 2008 11:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
Amen to that. Keep those expectations LOOOOOOW.
April 18, 2008 11:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
This is pretty sweet. The Economist reporter covering the Clinton campaign has thrown in the towel because he can't take the level of bullshit flowing out of it. Can't say I blame him.
I’m not exactly sure when it happened, but my will has been broken. I’ve realised that covering Mrs Clinton's campaign without explicitly stating that it has turned into a win-at-all-costs operation fueled by phony outrage, hypocritical proclamations and absurd notions of who is electable and who is not is an exercise in deliberate deception, and I can't do that. Perhaps I am weaker than my colleagues, but a certain fatigue sets in when trying to sort through it all. Mrs Clinton does have substance, and some well-thought-out policy prescriptions, but did you know Barack Obama is an elitist? Never mind that the Clintons largely agree with what Mr Obama said, or meant to say.
http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2008/04/thats_it.cfm
April 18, 2008 11:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
In terms of the polling numbers, Obama's stretch kick in Pennsylvania seems eerily familiar to the closing days in California, where the actual vote proved the apparent late poll movement illusory. But there are at least three differences this time: 1) No huge Latino bloc vote for Hillary, 2) a better Obama ground game on primary day, and 3) the inevitability of Obama's nomination. So he may creep within a few points or pull just about even. That would return us to irrelevancy in Oregon but I'd take it!!
April 18, 2008 12:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
It seems to me that she is just nosing Obama out in PA. To her, that's a massive loss. Her nasty performance in the debate didn't help her. The more frantic she gets, the more shrill she gets and the more it seems (at least to this Democrat) that she is willing to ditch the party and let McCain take over the White House than she should be. She seems to be saying "If it's not me you want, go **** yourself" and I don't appreciate that. I am not even happy about re-electing her to the Senate when her term is over. Unless the New York Republicans run a complete moron against her, she may have sacrificed my vote.
April 18, 2008 12:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am canceling all appointments for the day and staying home by the phone, just in case Zogby calls and asks me which candidate has a better understanding of Pennsylvania. This question has been torturing me. Come Tuesday, it will probably loom even larger than the lapel-pin issue as I step into the voting booth.
April 18, 2008 2:10 PM | Reply | Permalink