With the Fox News-sponsored smear campaign against Obama and the church I bet the people at the church (and not just Wright) were running around blind in a shit storm. I'm glad Axelrod tried to help out. He put them in touch with someone, is that newsworthy?

You do realize that Jimmy Carter pretty much endorsed Obama today right?

What the F*CK is your problem TPM

Your pro-Clinton bias is really sickening lately.

Let's bring up Wright every single f*cking day, ignore the good Obama pools, ignore his Fund raising, help smear Richardson...

F*ck you

I'm not sure why this is "interesting". Are you trying to imply that there was something untoward in Axelrod's actions? Or is this just another way to raise the Wright controversy again?

My sentiments exactly

Greg Sargent's tired hack act running far too long

BFD

Yawn. Slow news cycle today.

Pretty innocuous. I doubt most churches would know how to deal with being thrown into the national spotlight, especially in such an unflattering way.

Pro bono PR work is not going to erase 20 years of race and hate. It is also missing the point in any case as the real issue is Obama's a) lack of judgment by being a member for so long and b) simply appears to reflect his own racism and hate. Obama has yet to apologize and explain his association and participation in this church. Further, he has yet to explain Rev. Meeks and by lack of these apologies and explanations, Obama confirms his poor judgment and character.

Matthew
http://www.TheProblemWithObama.com

Obama confirms his poor judgment and character.

You know, Weaver, I'm really glad you see it that way. If you saw it they way I do, I'd have to re-evaluate my own position.

This is a smart move on Obama's part.

If he should (hopefully!) win the nomination, you bet your behind the Republicans are going full throttle at the church. Obama has been nothing but forthright about his ties to this church, and their important community work (yes, spearheaded by Rev Wright himself!).

So, I see this as Obama simply taking care of the church that got him to where he is today.
All those who use the term "throw (x/y/z) under the bus" can basically sit down and recognize he's taking care of his own.

Total BS headline. It is no longer "Wright's church." Only by including disinformation does the story have the appearance of being news.

Schmedley,

Have you read or listened to anything beyond the so-called 30 seconds of clips?!

First, even Obama discusses in his book but apparently doesn't appreciate the racism rampant in the church when he joined. From his writings, comments, and now 20 year history, I figure thate that he simply embraced it.

Second, look at the church's own writings. Their Black Value System is blatantly racist. See especially the last number of points. Plus, can you please explain item 8?

Third, look at the various Trumphet bulletins.

Fourth, yes, listen to what is actually preached at the church. Obama has at least occasionally attended and no one has suggested he slept through the sermons, he takes his daughter's there. He also calls Rev. Wright a mentor, his spiritual advisor, and friend.

I believe it is completely fair and appropriate to judge Obama's character and judgment by all of this. And anyway, what else do have have? He has very limited public record, many points are contradicted, embellished or lies. Finally, Obama is caught refining the definition of "is" rather than answering questions. As I have written elsewhere, he owns a direct, personal apology and an explanation of just where and how racism and hate fit in his life. Otherwise, it is up to everyone else to define this. (And don't think that the Republicans and 527s are prepared to do so.)

BTW, folks supporting Obama would do better to get real in conversations and thinking about this rather than jump into their own name calling and dismissive rants.

Matthew
http://www.TheProblemWithObama.com

So:

I will ask like everyone else:

Why is this important????

Matt Weaver should read "Slavery by Another Name" by Douglas Blackmon. And then Weaver can use his 'fair and balanced' website to excerpt the facts from that book. Blackmon, whom I heard interviewed on NPR, is telling Americans some really awful facts about what happened to black men in the generations of Rev. Wright's father and grandfather. I myself never heard of those post civil war methods of enslaving blacks.

Here's my last word on this subject to you, Weaver:

Rev. Wright doesn't preach hate, you idiot - he preached forgiveness. He talks about what has happened in this country between our races and he asked over and over and over for his congregation to forgive us.

Jesus - it floors me that everyone misses this - the point is not hating on Whites you fool - it's LOVING US.

Why am I not surprised that Tena and others can't answer some questions about their own apparant racism but want to instead label everyone else with their White-guilt and that anyone opposed to Obama must be racist.

BTW, for DonnaG. I realize that you do not know anything about me but do not paint me with your stereotypes. In addition to two years of electronics and nuclear engineering, my undergraduate and graduate work were in U.S. history. I have studied and read our history in great detail and, even today, my book shelves are full of books from these studies that include King, Malcolm X, Garvey, Du Bois, Marshall, and many others. Contrary to your racist and politically motivated stereotyping, I and my friends would consider me a good example of 'post-racial'. Race is not a factor in my life, my friends, my decisions, my work, or elsewhere. I reject it and I especially reject anyone who chooses to make it a factor in their decisions.

From what you and others write, many Obama supporters are either wrestling with race, with their own sense of White guilt, maybe even using Obama's campaign as proof they are not racist. Further, there are many misapplying affirmative action to politics to give Obama a pass on his association and apparently held racist and hate America views.

Matt Weaver

You have some interesting points in your discussion. However, I think it is grossly unfair to jump to the conclusion that Obama harbors any more racist views than any of the other candidates. Scrap that. I think it is an effort, as are many (by obama supporters as well), to take one issue to push as at a specific candidate.

In fact, McCain has consistently USED HATE SPEECH as a presidential candidate in 2000. Expect this to come to the surface in the GE, and please consider this in your current analysis of candidates.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/hongop.shtml

I think it is interesting that no other candidates church and/or pastors have been brought forth and examined to the same extensive degree. Consider that McCain also belongs to a baptist "megachurch," and it is not clear Hillary has a current church.

To go further, if you include King in your list of books and works, then you have some understanding of the many conterversial statements King made during his time period.

I absolutely think Wright is fair game, but for a student of history such as yourself, don't you think it is important to contextualize the statements (particularily the separation of America's concept of "civil religion" and Christianity -- the two of which often collide)and the individual?

Until then what you have detailed looks quite similar to the same old talking points.

It's not that I can't answer you Weaver, it's that it's complicated and profound. If you want me to tell you whether or not I'm racist, I can only tell you this - I grew up in the segregated south. I vividly remember asking my mother in Safeway when I was 4 what the Colored's Only sign on the drinking fountain in the back meant. I grew up and found I like African Americans very much - but see, I was still thinking of them as African American and I think something deep in me still thought of them as being somehow "other" than me, I just liked the kind of "other" they were.

Then I found out that I'm 1/8 African. I experienced a very profound realization - that I had seen them as "other" - just liked what I saw. I had not realized that until that momet. But there is no other. We are all the same being.

See, people who are visibly of African ancestry understand that they are perceived as "other." Most people mentally understand that's bullshit, but that doesn't account for things that were imprinted on you when you were growing up. When gays were totally in the closet and black people stayed in their part of town.

Do you think that anti-semitism doesn't really exist, either? And most importantly - do you think everyone is as good as you claim to be on disregarding someone's race? We are not all you, Weaver.

thank the gods and goddesses.

And now you know, so please - do not call me a racist again. If you don't know Ry Cooder, the musician, you need to find his song "That's the Way the Girls are From Texas" and heed the lyrics.

Tina,

Thank you for your detailed, substantive post. As you recognize, a lot of Obama supporters are quick with accusations of racism, denunciations, and derogatory comments to dismiss anyone and any comments that oppose Obama. It is not helpful in the discourse. Nor, as well when Clinton supporters do the same.

I grew up mostly in the northwest, but also a bit in Florida. I've traveled extensively to all 50 states and more than 46 countries. I recall as a 7 year old traveling south and seeing federal troops in jeeps with 50-caliber machine guns patrolling streets in Mississippi and Alabama as we drove through. I have met people who are racist, even family members, and women I dated. In all cases, I am clear with my rejection and objection to it and, even with my family, will have nothing to do with it or them if they choose to make this a part of their lives.

It is interesting that Obama, who comes from a non-slave background has chosen to become associated with the racism of Wright and Meeks and even uses racist stereotypes such as 'typical White person.' Further, as he is from his father's side, a first generation American with mixed race parents, it is surprising to see his association with the American hate from Wright and Meeks. Obama is not stupid and has some very excellent education. He should be a good candidate for post-racial that many wish upon him but everything we learn about him suggests otherwise. Look instead at Colin Powell and Tiger Woods. Both offer credible life stories and lives that are by all appearances post-racial. I cannot image Powell every joining a church like Trinity, much less building up 20 years as an active member. It is, in this, a matter of judgment and character, which, I realize we will disagree on, but something that Obama lacks.

But, again, thanks, for finally writing a substantively, detailed post that tells more about you and your views. This is appreciated and, speaking for myself, very welcomed.

Matthew
http://www.TheProblemWithObama.com

People, people! Look at the bigger picture here. This PR problem that has been adressed is about damage control to Obama's campaign and the church he is associated with. Rev. Wright may have preached many wonderful sermons in his illustrious career, but it only takes a few really bad ones to ruin it. 20 years is a lonng time to be a member of one church. I am 44 years old and have belonged to 2-3 churches. If you stay at one church for 20 years then you most likely have bought into the spiritual beliefs and values that the church practices and professes. How could Obama not have been exposed to some of this poison being spewed by Wright? Who do you think Obama's friend and spiritual advisor will be if he becomes president of the U.S.? BINGO!

This is not about MATH equations, as Jaysin suggested in his number of sermons given over 30 years X blah blah blah....it is about CHARACTER! I am ready for any president, of any color, or race, but they must have strong character. Obama does not!

Poor Poor Matthew Weaver. He is so outraged at how his people have been oppressed and enslaved for centuries by those terrible African Americans.

Mr. Weaver is tired of being harassed for just DWW. Driving While White.

Mr. Weaver lives in fear that President Obama will revoke Mr. Weaver's license to be White.

Mr. Weaver live in NY, and calls himself and Independant, but his entire life is now threatened by a African American church in Chicago.

Mr. Weaver now lives his life in constant fear, and with frequent changes of adult diapers.

First of all, I saw these Wright clips on CNN (Communist News Network),not Fox. Second, I am a conservative Republican, not a liberal, Hillary supporter. My God, she is worse than Obama! And it is not because Obama is black or Hillary is a woman. They lack serious character! WWJB, you are full of anger, it is very apparent, and you will make any excuse necessary to mask the concerns the American people have about Obama's pastor and his incredibly poor judgment! If Obama has put this much faith in Wright, then he will do so again! He is not fit for president I am afraid.

TPM community...

I apologize for any spelling or grammar errors in advance.

Mat Weaver

Let me address your substantive statements point by point, and also request that you revisit the "civil religion" v. "christianity" argument I put forth that you left unaddressed -- in addition to avoiding the contextualization of Mr. Wrights comments.

To repeat, as a self-professed student of history I believed you would find these the most interesting. That is the subtle, misconstrued, and misunderstood portion of the argument against Wright. That's the point most people respond to, without even understanding their viserial reaction.

Whether we as Americans want to consider it or not, quite simply:

God is not American.

(That concept is unique to the Civil Religion of the United States and/or Confederate States in some cases -- see "Battle of the Lost Cause" and its affect on U.S. ethnic relations which we could go into as well if you like)

God's love is for ALL* who accept their particular tenets of faith.

*I prefer not to get into particulars on this, but we can get into Christianity, Islam and/or Judaism if you would like (i dont know much about the rest) -- so not exactly "ALL" I will quickly admit.

MW quote: "Obama, on the other hand, has made a very big deal of his religion,"

Let me say, from various fields of study I will never be one to talk of fairness in media, race, gender, sexual orientation, economics whatever.

Simply put: Life is not fair.

Your above statement somehow implies Obama had a political choice in addressing his religion.

According to many of the latest polls 10% or more of Americans believe him to be a Muslim, even though he is not and has never been.

In my opinion, your lack of basic political analysis reveals your bias toward the senator from Illinois. As a result, much of your analysis can be somewhat contextualized with a lack of a basic acknowledgement of the political reality of his situation. Again, this reveals the bias in your analysis and restricts the number of people who will bother to reply.

But let's go a bit further into things, some of the continuously looped statements of Mr. Wright, a fallable man, completely independent of Mr. Obama.

(A brief bit of bio on Mr. Wright ... he dropped out of school in 61 to join the U.S. armed forces and served in both the Marines and Navy for six years-- he gave up is student deferment).

For instance, the full "God Damn America" quote is the following:
"Not God bless America, God damn America! God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme."

Even this does somewhat of a disservice, as it removes the quotation from the entire sermon, and thus removes the biblical context. This is almost a classic representation of "Civil Religion" v. "Christianity / Christian ethics."

Obama absolutely did address these ideas and conflicts in his speech on race, and his comments before his speech on race. When you deny these issues and then go further and push the issue without addressing the other candidates given your statements begins to travel into the realm of the ridiculous.

Let me again say, from various fields of study I will never be one to talk of fairness in media, race, gender, sexual orientation, economics whatever. Life is not fair. And on that note I review your another of your responses:
(M.W. response)
"Yes, I recall McCain's comments dating from his experience being tortured in Vietnam. I think he's addressed this and nothing suggests this reflects his views toward race."

John S. McCain III original remarks:
"On his campaign bus recently, Sen. John McCain told reporters, "I hated the gooks. I will hate them as long as I live."
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/hongop.shtml

For instance, you are "satisfied" with McCain's answer on what basis? According to your standards his situation was far far far worse than anything I could possibly imagine. Consider he was actively INDOCTRINATED for the span of 5 years. Now, that may make him a hero in the eyes of many Americans, myself included;however, what does this say about his statements and their validity and deep-seated nature of his view of race?

What does this say about his integrity if he goes against torture for the "other?"

What does this say about his ethnic views on "the enemy?" -- as solidiers often justify psychologically the harsh treatment of the enemy as they redefined the enemy to be sub-human.

Unfair analysis? Sure, but as you implied and I stated all fairness is out of the discussion, we examine at face value.

Would it be fair to include McCain's comments on race to his quite active rejection of MLK day when originally proposed and sent to be validated?
In fact, if I recall it took the NFL moving a Superbowl and various other pols for it to be recognized by AZ.

"In his first year in the U.S. House, McCain voted with the minority and opposed the 1983 law creating the national holiday to honor King, but reversed his decision around 1990 after he says he “learned” more about King’s achievements."

"But among other issues critics raise are McCain’s vote against the 1990 Civil Rights Act, which sought to curb discrimination in the workplace (and eventually passed as the 1991 act), as well as his short-lived support for South Carolina’s right to fly the confederate flag over the statehouse during the 2000 primary."
http://embeds.blogs.foxnews.com/2008/04/03/mccain-reversal-on-mlk-holiday-an-issue-as-he-visits-memphis/

Does this provide evidence for some sort of global proclaimation on McCain's morals?

I can find many many other instances of legistlative issues and/or "gaffes" and "gotchas."

In fact, this can go into overdrive if we go through all the list of surrogates and associates.
The same is true for the senator from New York.

I can go so far as to state you give me a religious leader of almost any faith and I can pull quotes out of context from their scriptures or sermons to make them violate the tenets of America's "Civil Religion," and simultaneous make them look ridiculous.

Quite finally, the display of a web site that you have appear to have both created and own devoted to problems with a particular candidate leads me to believe you are not interested in a serious dialogue on the issues at all. Rather, the evidence here and on the linked website lead me to believe you are interested and invested in the art of internet propaganda, which is disappointing.

I hope you give the pursuit up, and find a more constructive outlet for your emotional energy that can create positive change for yourself, our country and humanity.

Good Night to You and God* Bless You.

*(in whatever form/s you believe, and in absence of belief my humble apologies)

I don't really understand why this is so noteworthy. Seriously. Someone in Obama's campaign privately hooked Trinity up with a PR firm, and someone in that PR firm did pro bono work for Trinity. So? What does this have to do with the campaign?

If Obama somehow used campaign funds to pay for this, then THAT would be a story. As is, it just seems like you're either bored with nothing else to do or have some kind of axe that you keep grinding.

Oooh. Ooooh. Damage control. That is what every campaign and every elected official always engages in. You seem to think that Senator Obama is the only one that is not allowed to do so. Get real.

Well, there you have it. Bigotry and violence have always gone hand in hand. And Senator Obama is correct - there is much work to be done just to admit it.

I hope we see another $70K donation to the church in the Obama's 2008 tax returns when they come out next year, too.