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Poll: Hillary Up By Three Points In Pennsylvania
A new survey of Pennsylvania from Public Policy Polling (D) gives Hillary Clinton a narrow lead, after this pollster had given Obama slight edge last week:
Clinton 46% (+3)
Obama 43% (-3)
From the internals: Clinton leads 53%-36% among whites, while Obama is ahead 74%-17% with blacks.
Another number that may help explain the Obama camp backing away from any calls for Hillary to drop out: 52% of Pennsylvania Dems say they are not concerned that the long primary campaign will hurt the party's chances against John McCain, and Hillary is ahead 50%-40% with that group.
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If this holds on the Pennsylvania primary day, it means a total wash in the delegates gained out of the contest. It would mean a net gain of 4 delegates for Clinton, which isn't what she needs to overcome Obama's significant delegate lead. And it wouldn't give her the bounce she needs to win North Carolina.
April 9, 2008 11:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
It’s worth approaching these results with a note of caution. Recent polls actually show a remarkably consistent level of support for Obama (InsiderAdvantage: 42%; PPP: 43%; SV: 42%; Rasmussen: 43%; Quinnipiac: 44%). Even the outlier – SurveyUSA – puts Obama at 38%.
On the other hand, when it comes to Hillary, we see more variation: Insider Advantage: 45%; PPP: 46%; SV: 47%; Rasmussen: 48%; Quinnipiac: 50%; SurveyUSA: 56%. Why the spread? Well, there’s a fairly strong inverse correlation with the number of voters selecting neither candidate and Hillary’s level of support. IA: 13%; PPP: 11%; SV: 11%; Rasmussen: 9%; Quinnipiac: 6%; SurveyUSA: 6%.
I’d suggest that what we’re seeing here has been a constant feature of rust-belt polling this cycle. Hillary has an early lead, and Obama’s levels of support are low. Obama then builds his level of support – in this case, it appears he’s in the low 40s. That leads to headlines trumpeting a “tightening race.” The problem is that undecided voters this cycle have broken heavily for Hillary. She seems to be the default option – if Obama can’t win over a voter by the time we get within a day or two of the election, they’re likely to vote for Hillary. So Hillary stages a “comeback.”
Of course, the underlying reality is different – in Ohio, for example, an election eve Zogby poll found a tie race, with each candidate garnering 44% of the vote. That was roughly the average level of support for Obama found in polls taken in the final week, and in fact, exactly what he received on election day. The problem was the other 12% of voters, who broke overwhelmingly for Hillary. It’s one reason why SurveyUSA has been so accurate this cycle – they don’t offer “undecided” as an option in most of their polling, and they force voters to commit to one candidate or the other. I’m not endorsing their latest poll – it certainly looks like they’re at least slightly underestimating Obama here. But I suspect that if the election were held tomorrow, Obama would get about 44% - and Clinton the rest.
April 9, 2008 11:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for drawing that to our attention. I could probably figure this out on my own, but given that I would trust the answer more if I saw you work it out than if I did it myself, can I ask you to tell me what that would amount to in delegate breakdowns after those results were tallied?
April 9, 2008 11:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
It'd be roughly a 14-16 margin, but that's not what matters. The problem is that once again we're going to have a flawed narrative - an Obama "surge," followed by a Clinton "comeback." What we're actually witnessing is a steady accumulation of support by Obama, but an inability to breka 50% in heavily white, working-class states among primary voters. I don't think that's a particular liability for the general election, for a variety of reasons. But instead of "Obama chipped steadily away at Clinton's support," the media will use these polls to suggest that he narrowed the gap, and that it subsequently widened. And I think that's plainly not the case.
April 9, 2008 11:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
Can a "flawed narrative" really do much damage by this point? Her win in OH, for instance, did not appreciably lessen his lead in WY or MS. I agree that the "comeback kid" meme that would revive in the wake of a 12 pt victory would be annoying to the sensitivities of Obama partisans like myself, but I am not convinced that it would do much damage to our long term prospects. As you have already noted, the victories in each state seem to depend much more on demographics than "momentum" and other such media narratives, so presumably the outcomes that would follow would be much the same regardless of the outcome in PA.
April 9, 2008 12:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, I doubt it would sway voters in the few remaining states. And of course, it couldn't possibly alter the totals of pledged delegates. But the only reason Hillary's still in the race is that a remarkable number of people were convinced that she pulled something out in Ohio. We had innumerable post-mortems in the days after the race, all looking for the reasons that Obama had faltered in the final days. Right here at TPM, a certain unnamed blogger who generally knows better than to buy into such narratives, speculated that Obama hadn't responded aggressively enough to NAFTA and other attacks. And so the punditocracy started looking for evidence that Obama could hit back.
It was all absurd. Obama slowly and steadily expanded his base of support in Ohio. No poll, in the months that polling was conducted, ever showed Obama receiving a statistically-significant higher percentage of the vote than he actually received. (The highest he ever polled was 46%; he got just over 44%.) That's sort of a remarkable fact. And it's generally true - even in states where he "collapsed" or where the "polling was way off," people are typically talking about the margin between the two candidates. Those margins have, indeed, shown wild fluctuations in most states in the run-up to elections. But in NH and MA, to cite two examples, the polling of Obama's actual level of support was spot-on, even though the margin was way off.
So my fear is that we're going to see a final result that's something like 54-44%. And so pundits will seize upon whatever negative events occurred or attacks were launched in the final week as an explanation for why polling that showed a "3-point race" yielded to a ten-point margin. And that will be held up as a challenge that Obama needs to address - and Hillary will stay in the race, arguing that she's proven that Obama still has to address the challenge. All of which will be tremendously silly. But don't think it won't happen.
April 9, 2008 12:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
I just sent the following to JMM, as I don't agree with this practice.
Josh:
Regarding blogging, I think it is inappropriate for individuals to constantly advertise their sites via links when blogging. I wish you would address this issue.
Kind regards,
April 9, 2008 11:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
I am willing to believe that undecided voters are more apt to put that X next to Clinton's name, for a bunch of different reasons. Name ID is one major reason for honest to god undecideds. She is a known quantity, more or less, for someone who can't make up their mind.
I don't know that there is any way on earth to really come to some agreement over how many voters that represents. At this stage, I would imagine more voters are decided than not.
April 9, 2008 11:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hillary will try and pull a sneaky trick like she did in New Hampshire, Ohio and Texas. It did not work in Texas
Trying to Heal a Rift in New Hampshire
By Alec MacGillis
Three New Hampshire Democratic leaders who signed a letter two days before the state's primary at the request of Hillary Clinton's campaign, attacking Barack Obama as soft in his support for abortion rights, are asking Obama supporters in the state to put the rifts of the primary campaign behind them and praising Obama for being "strongly pro-choice."
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/01/18/trying_to_heal_a_rift_in_new_h_1.html
She will run the White House like she runs her Campaign into bankruptcy.
How can she stop the fighting in Iraq when she cannot stop the fighting in her own Campaign. She says she is ready on DAY1.
Yet Her Campaign is in the RED.
She is nothing but all talk.
April 9, 2008 3:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
This was a tie, within the margin of error, both weeks. Way too much overinterpretation of noise here.
April 9, 2008 11:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
When Hillary was up 20+ points, we didn't believe the polls.
When Obama was up by a point, we didn't believe the polls.
The only poll that matters is on 4/22.
Chuck Todd says campaign internals say the race is within single-digits and closing. That's good enough for me.
April 9, 2008 11:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm as sick as anyone else of the people constantly shrieking that TPM is in the tank for Hillary, but that said, the analysis in the last paragraph really is twisted into pretzels to obtain a favorable result for her.
A more realistic analysis to me is that Obama's support among people who want the contest to be over is just barely lower than among people who want it to continue. Considering that if Obama wins Pennsylvania, the contest is over, he should be able to pick up considerably more support from the people who think it should be, and I imagine that as more people make the argument that Hillary needs a win in Pennsylvania to survive, and that there's no realistic scenario in which she can claim a win before early-to-mid-June, the more these people will move to Obama.
April 9, 2008 11:51 AM | Reply | Permalink
"Another number that may help explain the Obama camp backing away from any calls for Hillary to drop out: ..."
Eric - is this speculation your own, or is it being pushed by "sources" in one of the campaigns?
Personally I find it a stretch to imagine that the Obama campaign would think that they could curry favor with Pennsylvania voters in this way. But then, I don't work for a campaign, and I don't live in Pennsylvania either.
I'd be more interested in having some comment (official or unofficial) by someone associated with the Obama campaign who might actually *know* why (and indeed if) they have changed tactics.
April 9, 2008 11:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
It's Eric's own speculation, which seems a bit silly here. It's quite some stretching there he did.
April 9, 2008 11:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
DODD only said Hillary should drop out if she kept praising her BFF McCain over Obama.
That is the only reason she was asked to drop out because she and Bill were Praising a Repug over another Democrat.
Hillary and Bill know this, they know exactly how to lie
April 9, 2008 3:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
As an Obama supporter I was very disturbed by yesterday's SUSA poll which showed Obama trailing Clinton by 18 points -- actually regressing 6 points compared with SUSA's tracking poll of the previous week. This was in shattering contrast to yesterday's encouraging Quinnipiac poll which showed Obama only 6 points behind and apparently closing. What a difference! And who am I supposed to believe? SUSA has a very good reputation, and my instinct was to credit its results over Quinnipiac's pretty much without question. However, I just read an interesting take my Mark Blumenthal over at Pollster.com. He argues that that the Q poll might be more reliable than SUSA in this case. Here is his rationale:
{F}irst, the Quinnipiac University poll has been conducting very large samples of likely Democratic primary voters lately (ranging from 1,304 to 1,549 interviews on the last three surveys) that reduces the sampling error within smaller subgroups. Second, Quinnipiac has long and extensive experience in Pennsylvania. The pollsters I know who have worked in the state hold the poll in high regard.
Third, perhaps indicative of the first two factors, the current Quinnipiac results -- showing Hillary Clinton leading Barack Obama by six points (50% to 44%) -- track fairly closely with our overall trend estimate based on all polls (51% to 43%). Finally, Quinnipiac is one of the only polls that regularly tabulates its results by education and Doug Schwartz, the director of the poll, has been kind enough to share additional tabulations that do not appear in their public release.
Informed comments, anyone?
Here's the link: http://www.pollster.com/blogs/update_pennsylvania_results_by.php
April 9, 2008 12:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry, the last paragraph should also be in italics.
April 9, 2008 12:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wow, those internals are shocking! You mean, people who support the candidate who is behind want the race to keep going instead of ending immediately?
April 9, 2008 12:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
Let's all agree that a political campaign is a complex human event, involving tons of objective and subjective variables (demographics, prejudices, momentum and the like). No two races are alike, even though we all try compare the last states (Ohio and Texas) to this one.
Having said that, allow me to share these observations. Two weeks out from the Ohio primary, Obama was 14 points out in the average of polls on the RCP site. Now he's 7 points out in the same average in Pennsylvania, which is about where he was in Texas at the same point. Obama eventually surged ahead in Texas, and got closer in Ohio, and then fell back in both states amid Clinton's ad and the NAFTA-Canada thing, and other stuff. But I think the real reason for Obama's late drop in TX and OH was the whole "default" argument: people just don't know enough about the guy, and aren't willing to sign up for the wedding yet. So they go with the proven girl: Hillary.
Logic and human nature would likely have it that this reluctance to embrace the newcomer-frontrunner will be less of a factor as time wears on. It seems likely to me that Obama will continue to pull a bit closer to Hillary and that the final deciders will break for Hillary, but perhaps not as dramatically as in New Hampshire, Ohio and Texas. If all other things remain constant, I'd expect Hillary to win by just two or three points: in the end, Hillary's demographic advantage will only slightly outweigh Obama's money/advertising advantage. The other factors that may shift the race one way or another are 1) a new scandal/gaffe; and 2) voter turnout, and the youth vote.
I guess we'll see in 13 days.
April 9, 2008 12:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
htobar:
As I've tried to explain above, I think it's a mistake to look at the margins between the candidates in these polls. Obama's base level of support never dipped in the final weeks in Ohio - in fact, it slightly rose. I suspect that he'll end up taking almost exactly the 43% of the vote that polls currently suggest - perhaps a point or three more, if he campaigns really well. And Hillary will take most of the rest. Because all year long, undecided whites have overwhelmingly backed Hillary come electin day, and I don't see any reason for that to change now.
April 9, 2008 12:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, didn't undecided whites break for Obama in Wisconsin? And in Iowa and Virginia? Still, your point is well made.
But I think the college-educated, non-college educated whites split is the crux of the issue. It's really about class, not race: except for black voters. Black voters broke for Hillary before Barack won in Iowa, and then the pride thing kicked in. I don't know if a Harvard-educated, intellecutal type of any race/ethnicity is going to convince those non-black working class voters in a Democratic primary. It's the same reason Hispanics broke for Hillary: it has more to do with the fact that most Hispanics are working class people. Working class people have a very practical idea of what a president should look like: someone who can roll up his/her sleeves and get things done. Obama's campaign isn't working yet on that level, and might never during the remaining primaries.
In the general, it'll be different, since I don't think most working class people (white, Hispanic, black) believe that McCain and the GOP care about them.
April 9, 2008 12:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Here are the final white numbers from Virginia:
Constituent Dynamics: 44-35
SurveyUSA: 47-49
Mason-Dixon: 41-49
Rasmussen: "even"
ARG: "even"
So there you have it. Three polls showed an even split, one showed a huge lead among white voters for Obama, and a fifth for Hillary. You're right - there are a handful of states in which white voters have split in favor of Obama, and Virginia is one of them.
Exit Poll: 52-47
In the end, the huge number of undecided white voters in all of these polls (save SUSA) broke heavily for Obama. Honestly, I can't tell you why Virginia was different. But overall, I'll stand by the basic point. The polling on white voters has generally been very good - that is, it's accurately pegged Obama's eventual support.
April 9, 2008 1:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Off topic but Politico has a good article about Hillary's managerial incompetence:
"Clinton leadership a study in missteps"
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0408/9478.html
Very good point.
April 9, 2008 12:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks!
April 9, 2008 12:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
This post raises an excellent question that applies equally to all of the remaining candidates: who's campaign hasn't suffered a major setback and been on life support at some point in the past year? Put another way, who is best qualified to create and execute a plan that governs a very complicated, unwieldy enterprise?
April 9, 2008 1:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
Mark Blumenthal is up with two posts on the PA Poll situation (he favors Quinnipiac)
http://www.pollster.com/blogs/update_pennsylvania_results_by.php
http://www.pollster.com/blogs/whats_up_in_pennsylvania.php
Of special note this somewhat tangent...
April 9, 2008 12:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
All the demographics in Pennsylvania heavily favor Senator Clinton, and all the big political operations are working to turn out the vote for her.
Hillary should win at least 60% of the vote in Pennsylvania.
Anything less than that will be a disaster for her, given all the advantages that she has in that state, and she has the two term President campaigning heavily there.
Anything less than a 20% margin of Victory for Hillary in a state that is completely set up for her, will expose her for always going wobbly coming down the stretch. That would make her a terrible candidate to bet on for the big race in November.
April 9, 2008 1:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Give me more white people! We need more white people!" This is being reported in a Pennsylvania paper as what was being shouted by an event coordinator at one of Michelle Obama's political events in Pittsburgh, Pa. They wanted more white people to be seen in the crowd behind Mrs. Obama.
http://dyn.politico.com/popvideo/kotecki.cfm
April 9, 2008 2:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
All campaigns handpick staging as Koetcki mentioned.
April 9, 2008 2:33 PM | Reply | Permalink