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Post Debate Roundup, Philly Edition

A few last-minute odds and ends on the debate...

* There were questions about Wright, "small town," and Obama's flag-pin (or lack thereof), and none about Mark Penn or Colombia. The Clinton camp, which has been arguing that Obama hasn't received the front-runner's treatment yet, is very happy about this tonight.

* The Obama campaign, perhaps in a sign of urgency, rushed out a statement from campaign manager David Plouffe, emphasizing Hillary's attacks again and again. An excerpt...

"Tonight we saw a real choice between the old politics of point-scoring and distraction and a politics that focuses on bringing us together to actually solve the challenges we talk about every single election. Continuing the theme of her campaign, Senator Clinton used every single opportunity she had to launch misleading attack after misleading attack against Barack Obama, which is why polls show that most Americans think she's running the most negative campaign and don't believe she's trustworthy."

By contrast, the Hillary campaign didn't send out any statement; they think they won. Instead, their official reaction to the debate was to post this vid of a Philly focus group reacting to it...

* In an intriguing post-script, Hillary spokesperson Howard Wolfson appeared to defend ABC's silly gotcha conduct tonight. Asked on MSNBC by Keith Olbermann whether the candidates should really agree to debates such as these, Wolfson said that he thought that there were in fact some substantive questions, then added...

I think it's appropriate here for viewers at home here in Pennsylvania and around the country to look at these candidates. And how they answer some of the political questions that also come up because this is a political campaign and I think Senator Obama was asked a number of those kinds of questions, the kinds of questions that he's likely to see if he's the nominee in the fall. And he didn't handle them very well. And I think that voters watching at home will certainly take that into account.

It's in keeping with the Hillary camp's increasingly frequent argument that the Repubs are going to hit Obama with this stuff should he become the nominee -- so, hey, there's nothing wrong with us hitting him with the same stuff now.

Nonetheless, ABC is going to take a tremendous hit for this one. Obama supporters -- and perhaps some high-profile surrogates, as well -- will be expressing their displeasure with the network in no uncertain terms in the days ahead.

Now, over to you....


Comments (364)

Yep, she won.

won what?

He lost the debate, genius.

BHO even out-stammered himself tonight. I guess when you can't answer a question truthfully you just stammer out something unintelligible, then change the subject. How lame. The American people will see through this liberal-elitist fraud of a candidate.

I commend ABC for doing a fair job with their debate. CNN and MSNBC should take notes.

So let's be absolutely clear...you're leaning towards Clinton?

I thought Obama did fine.

I thought ABC clearly lost. The first hour was absolutely moronic, and Stephanopolous asked the question fed to him by Sean Hannity of Fox News. They asked about 4 media manufactured issues before anything about the war or the economy. They asked no questions about healthcare or the environment, and bad questions about the economy.

Clinton flat-out admitted that she lied about Bosnia in answer to a voter's video question. I doubt that voter will "look past" it.

She also gave up her mastery of policy title by not knowing what the top capital gains tax rate was during her husband's administration. It was 28%, not 20%. She seemed adrift during that discussion. It was unfair b/c Charlie Gibson was trying to get them to stipulate to an untrue fact.

Did anyone else notice that Obama called Gibson "sir?" How wierd is that?

Remember when John Kerry won all 3 debates against George W Bush in 2004.

It was a defining moment that marked President Kerry's surge to the oval office. No wait, it was insignificant.

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Eh? You think that Kerry won all three debates? You've got to be kidding me!

So, you thought Bush won a single debate?!?

Bush may be great at using wedge issues to win close elections.

But a good debater? No.

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They were pretty much all ties in my opinion. Kerry was OK, but nowhere near good enough to significantly sway voters. Last night, the debate was not a tie.

Judged by any objective standard, such as mastery of the issues being discussed or answering the questions coherently, yes, John Kerry won all three debates.

Judged by who seemed like a nicer fellow, perhaps Bush held his own.

Judged by whose flacks spun the media best afterward, Bush won by a mile.

I would use the first criteria, but your mileage may vary.

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When did he stammer? He had to repeat himself quite a bit because he kept getting interrupted, but he never stammered. Also, lying? He didn't lie at the debate, what the hell are you talking about? Oh wait, typical Hillbot, only sees what Hillary wants them to see.

Whatever, keep talking out your ass, I'll be thinking of you when she gives her concession speech.

Socialists for Obama! Workers unite! Religion is the opiate of the masses! Solidarity, brothers and sisters!

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At the time of writing some 16000 people over at the ABC poll disagrees with those who say that Hillary won the debate. They have Obama clobbering Clinton 3/1

He had an off night, but it's not going to effect him or his support.

Maybe we can watch the Obama/Casey inauguration together, sweets!

He had an off night, but it's not going to effect him or his support.

Maybe we can watch the Obama/Richardson inauguration together, sweets!

It was nobody's finest night tonight.
Not Obama, not Hillary and certainly not ABC. Perhaps George Steph can get Cokie Roberts and her Texas polygamy lady hairdo on this weekend to tell us all exactly why it was such a good debate.

I think the fallout of ABC's performance will certainly be pretty big and will undercut the off night Obama had.

This is a joke.

Obama HIMSELF is responsible for the long-winded dodgey answers he gave. He STRETCHED that opening part MUCH longer than he needed to.

He should have answered the questions directly, and moved on. Instead, he blew hot air with very little sense of direction.

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Haven't seen the debate yet, but judging from these comments and others, sounds like Obama's come out a little bloodied. ABC may not have been impartial, but surely his supporters want to see how he responds under fire? And it's not like he hasn't benefited from partial mediators in the past! One of the reasons a lot of us support Hillary is due to her performance when the going gets tough.

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"...how she responds under fire.."

I presume that includes such tough resilience as shedding a few tears...really tough!

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Talking about New Hampshire, no? Firstly, not a tear was shed. Secondly, she wasn't under fire, but responding to an empathetic question. Thirdly, my girlfriend has a bit of a cry every now and then, and she's tough.

Margaret Thatcher cried in public almost every day.

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I think that Stephanopoulos had just managed to obtain some credibility on ABC before tonight. He did, however, get Clinton to say that Obama would beat McCain, as stupid as that is as a question (when you think about it), so that was worth something, and was one of the few items that I saw replayed this morning. So that does limit Clinton's opportunity to be a naysayer over the next few days.

I am hoping that Pennsylvanians might be voting like they have a tooth ache: we might hate the dentist, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do to end the pain. In this case, the pain is the primary election season. One can dream.

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"sign of urgency"

I agree, Plouffe saw the B.S. as all viewers!

Lucky me, I'm on the West Coast. I get to skip this train wreck since I've already read the Cliff notes.

DHinMI at Daily Kos notes that ABC panelists failed to ask anything about the following:

The financial crisis The collapse of housing values in the US and around the world Afghanistan Health care Torture The declining value of the US Dollar Education Trade Pakistan Energy Immigration The decline of American manufacturing The Supreme Court The burgeoning world food crisis. Global warming China The attacks on organized labor and the working class Terrorism and al Qaeda Civil liberties and constraints on government surveillance

But who cares about any of that crap. I wanna know why Obama dudn't think he needin' to be wearin' his flag pin, dognabit!!!

Yeah...You'd think that with the POTUS recently admitting to approving torture, that something along those lines would be hit. But nope, we got 100% bullshit.

Exactly! Those moderators took America for a bunch of gossiping idiots tonight.

I wish Obama had said, "You know who really displays contempt for the American people? The mainstream media--who seem to think the American people want to pick their president based on his willingness to wear a flag pin and similar inanities; and so you, in the media, endlessly obsess about these topics "on behalf" of the American people you so clearly despise.

He would have been called a whiner then. -.-

He should have taken the shot. We call him a whiner anyway.

But the Clinton campaign would respond by insisting that America is a bunch of gossiping idiots which is why it's so very important to vet candidates in this way.

Clinton understands that the only thing left for her campaign to do is to mouth GOP talking points and hope that they destroy Obama. Her supporters seem completely on board this strategy.

The saddest thing from the point of view of the Democratic Party is that this has absolutely zero chance of getting Clinton the nomination...but it just might get McCain the presidency.

The saddest thing from the point of view of our nation is that we have to rely on this sorry excuse for an opposition party to repair the damage of the last seven years.

Why do Democrats constantly blame their debauchery on the GOP? Hillary's using GOP talking points if she attacks Obama. Anything y'all think is underhanded on your candidates part you call Rove-like or Atwater tactics. When will you realize that you guys play gutter ball with the best of them? Al Gore was the first to bring up Willie Horton. Dems came up with the racially charged "Byrd" ads and "vote Republican and a black church will burn" ads. You want gutter tactics...two words James Carville! Ask one of those bitter smalltowners if you can borrow their Bible and read Matthew 7:3 "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?

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SFC, not that this will change your mind, but the very fact that you believe Gore brought up Willie Horton gives you away. Al Gore brought up Dukakis' policy of weekend passes for convicted criminals. That's it. George Bush turned it into a racial issue by making all about Willie Horton. There is, of course, a vast difference, but you'll never hear that while listening to Hannity.

Actually I prefer Neal Boortz over Hannity.

...and while Al Gore never said "Willie Horton" he did talk about the Governor's resistance to shutting down the furlough program even after the "horrific incident" speaking about the attack and rape by Willie Horton.

I know that I'll never select a candidate without understanding their commitment to the bill of rights, the constitution, and to basic rules of justice. Of course, we didn't learn about any of that tonight. Worst debate ever.

You did if you were paying attention, Obama said:
"I believe that the Constitution confers an individual right to bear arms. But just because you have an individual right does not mean that the state or local government can't constrain the exercise of that right,"
Does that apply only to the 2nd? What about freedom of the press? Free association? Speech? Religion? Voter rights? Religion? Redress grievances?...

Damn Dude,

You're not paying attention like you claim to be. Last I checked you can't yell fire in a crowded theater, so yes rights like free speech have limits (see also libel and slander).

...and how specifically does me owning a gun infringe on your rights? (which is the argument for your examples)

No I didn't say it infringed on my rights. The reason you can't yell fire in a (crowded) theater is because it endangers other people. So your ownership of a gun doesn't infringe on anyone's rights, but what you do with it might endanger other people. That isn't to say you shouldn't be able to own one, but that there probably should be some limits on your right to own one, just like there are on our other rights.

Your point (above) seemed to be that only the 2nd Ammendment was being singled out for limits, when in fact we have limits on most of our rights. So are you in fact saying the 2nd Ammendment should have no limits on it whatsoever?

Further, Obama actually got an endoresement from a moderate gun owners group:

>"The gun vote matters," says Ray Schoenke, founding president of the American Hunters and Shooters Association. And in Pennsylvania, he says, gun owners who follow key Washington legislation aimed at limiting ownership are moving in Obama's direction because of his support of past legislation to prohibit the use of federal money to confiscate weapons during a disaster like Hurricane Katrina.

Hillary voted for using federal money to confiscate guns during a disaster, so I'd think you'd be criticizing that rather then Obama's rather sensible and innocuous statement, but what can you do?

Obama supports the D.C. ban on handguns and says he thinks it is Constitutional for local governments to ban them. You don't ban speech to prevent libel or ban publishing to prevent slander. How is it Constitutional to completely strip a citizen of a constitional right to attempt to prevent them from participating in an already illegal activity? Seriously, banning Catholicism would prevent any child from being molested by a priest...somehow I don't see that being proposed.

How is it Constitutional to completely strip a citizen of a constitional right

Banning handguns isn't completely stripping a constitutional right since shotguns and hunting rifles are still allowed in DC. You're really making quite the strawman out of this in which any limit on guns is interpreted as "completely stripping" a constitutuional right, so again, I ask you to respond to my previous question:

Why is placing certain limits on gun ownership equivalent to stripping a citizen of their 2nd Ammendment rights? We have limits on other constitutional rights so why is the 2nd Ammendment the one right that needs to be unlimited?


Why wasn't Hillary wearing a flag pin?

Same reason Obama wasn't, most likely.

I think Obama sucks, but it would've been nice of the ABC pin-heads had asked her the question at the same time they asked Obama the question.

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"Why wasn't Hillary wearing a flag pin?" Outstanding comment! I'm amazed I never noticed. This is a sexist smear campaign. Girls don't gotta cause we say so. GAG. I'm a female and it gags Me big time. How can Washington politicians wear our flag on their lapel and brag about their patriotism and do the things they do every day with a straight face. They wear the pin and send our kids to die and when they come home broken, the pols don't provide the money to take care of them.

THREE TRILLION DOLLARS FOR BAGHDAD BUT NOT ONE RED CENT FOR AMERICANS. AND THEY CALL THAT PATRIOTIC!!!

I want to know that Obama has Special Superpowers and can see into the heart and soul of another human being and state definitively that the person loves America.

If he cannot look into another's soul and find patriotism, he does not deserve my vote!

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A really canny answer to this question if you were trying to pander to Pennsylvanians would be to note that he thinks the real sign of patriotism in a president isn't to wear flag pins made in China, but to start working on the serious economic and other issues that have arisen from the de-industrialization of America. Kind of answers the question but highlights the inanity of it at the same time it panders to a real voter concern.

I thought the debate was pretty awful. Apparently they think the most important issues for PA voters are

*Flag pins
*Acquaintances from local neighborhoods (Ayers)
*Bittergate
*Wright

So who exactly is elitist and condescending. Hillary was sounding like a freeper. It was pretty bad.

"Texas polygamy lady hairdo"

Omigosh! That is the best!

Tonight the moderators were auditioning for Shame Across America.

I'm here all week. Try the ribs.

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ABC now stands for Assault Black Candidate.

"assault black candidate"

What an asshole you are, "liam". Are you really this stupid, or are you just here to pick up guys?


This wasn't debate moderated by journalists in some thoughtful manner in an effort to discuss (or debate, even!) issues, it was a hit job.

Come on.

No one has done more for debates than Barack Obama.

Are you related to idiotic?

Senator, I served with idiotic: I knew idiotic; idiotic was a friend of mine. commenter, you're no idiotic.

ughh 24 more hours until i can see Jons take on this, i really could use some of his comedy to vent.

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I'm thinking that some of the Supers that are referenced here are going to step up soon.

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integrity: I'm hoping those Superdelegates noted well the part of the debate in which, after Hillary again said something about how she's been attacked for 15 years by the Republican attack machine, Obama said that she's indeed been attacked by the Republicans, but she came away with the wrong lesson, and has taken to using Republican tactics.

Yes, I hope they consider that carefully.

Look, you're all just used to MSNBC and Clinton haters such as Tim Russert, Tweety and Keith Olbertwit. It's so funny seeing the Obama Cultists cry foul now. The MSNBC/NBC debate was a hatchet job on Clinton. If Barry O wants to be POTUS, he's in the big leagues. Stop crying, be a man, grow a pair.

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You know, calling him "Barry" doesn't at all make you sound like a petty, embittered crank. It's really quite clever and scores huge points for your candidate.

Totally switched my vote next Tuesday. (Sheesh.)

Really. Call him by his real name: The Dear Leader.

Okay - I could care less that Obama lost this debate, and he did but this has nothing to do with Obama. It has to do with the issues and the absolute ridiulousness of the MSM and the insane topics of this election. I am SICK SICK SICK of it. I am sick of talking about rev Wright, I am sick of talking about Bitter-gate and yes, I am even sick of talking about Bosnia.
None of those things make one friggin bit of difference to my life. Lets talk about the war or even Hillary's bread and butter health care but lets talk of something of substance.

No one is whining, we are just sick to death of this stupidity by the media and marginal players like yourself.

Well, I seem to remember some stuff about ABC polling to find out what was on the minds of Pennsylvania voters. So maybe -- just maybe -- they were asking questions based on those polls. But what the hell, we all know those small town Pennsylvanians are morons. No? So maybe we should just agree the questions just reflected the moronic values of Pennsylvanians. What the answers reflected, I'll let you decide. Good debate. Obama must really be depressed. But it's not his money he's blowing. Why should he worry. Dig deep. You'll all feel better if you make a contribution.

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Well, I seem to remember some stuff about ABC polling to find out what was on the minds of Pennsylvania voters. So maybe -- just maybe -- they were asking questions based on those polls. But what the hell, we all know those small town Pennsylvanians are morons.

So, let me get this straight. ABC -- and apparently Billy Glad -- think that:

-- the minds of Pennsylvania voters, particularly small-town Pennsylvania voters, are focused far more on a perceived slight (which, if read in context, was a hell of a lot more sympathetic than the Hillbots, the Republicans, and the corporate media -- all of whom are on the same side -- make it out to be),

-- rather than:

o The banking crisis brought about through 30 years of Republican and Clintonian rule
o The collapse of housing values
o Afghanistan
o Health care
o Torture
o The free-fall of the US Dollar
o Education
o Trade
o Pakistan
o Energy
o Immigration
o The decline of American manufacturing and the shipping of our manufacturing capacity (and jobs) overseas, to be sold to the lowest bidder
o The Supreme Court
o The exploding world food crisis
o Global warming
o China
o The attacks on organized labor and the working class
o Terrorism and al Qaeda
o Civil liberties and constraints on government surveillance
o The expansion of the imperial presidency and the President's assertions that he is above the law.

(h/t Daily Kos and afferent input)

I guess for ABC and for Billy Glad, such concerns are off the radar of those simple small-town Pennsylvania folk. ABC, and Billy glad, think that they would much rather talk about a perceived slight from one of the candidates. ABC and Billy Glad think those simple folk don't care about all those wonky policy issues (are they too stupid, perhaps? Or lacking in education?), the ones that will define our lives for the next hundred years or so. No, according to ABC and Billy Glad, it's a comment at a fundraiser, and 30 seconds of words from a pastor, that really matter to the voters of Pennsylvania.

But Billy Glad, of course, is no elitist. No sirree. And neither is Charlie Gibson, or ABC.

Riiiiiiight.

If I were still posting at DailyKos and saw this comment, I'd give you a 4...no a 'rec'.

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And... hmmm... I remember the days when our friend Billy Glad preached to the world that he had "got beyond cann and response when I was a teen", and how he therefore found the Obama campaign "incredibly entertaining."

Not that that was elitist, or anything like that, mind you.

Or when Billy derided Obama's emphasis on faith and religion in his campaign as "building a campaign on the ignorance of the electorate."

Funny, Billy didn't seem to like it when Obama said:

But over the long haul, I think we make a mistake when we fail to acknowledge the power of faith in people's lives -- in the lives of the American people -- and I think it's time that we join a serious debate about how to reconcile faith with our modern, pluralistic democracy.

And if we're going to do that then we first need to understand that Americans are a religious people. 90 percent of us believe in God, 70 percent affiliate themselves with an organized religion, 38 percent call themselves committed Christians, and substantially more people in America believe in angels than they do in evolution.

This religious tendency is not simply the result of successful marketing by skilled preachers or the draw of popular mega-churches. In fact, it speaks to a hunger that's deeper than that - a hunger that goes beyond any particular issue or cause.

Each day, it seems, thousands of Americans are going about their daily rounds - dropping off the kids at school, driving to the office, flying to a business meeting, shopping at the mall, trying to stay on their diets - and they're coming to the realization that something is missing. They are deciding that their work, their possessions, their diversions, their sheer busyness, is not enough.

They want a sense of purpose, a narrative arc to their lives. They're looking to relieve a chronic loneliness, a feeling supported by a recent study that shows Americans have fewer close friends and confidants than ever before. And so they need an assurance that somebody out there cares about them, is listening to them - that they are not just destined to travel down that long highway towards nothingness.

Billy quoted that speech, in the same thread I linked to above, and then dismissed it all with "I guess we can't say he didn't warn us. In a world where more people believe in angels than in evolution, what can we expect?"

My, my, Billy. How times do change, eh?

Not that Billy is elitist about religion, or anything like that.

It's pretty clear that for Billy Glad, Obama is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

Do you really not know where the candidates stand on those issues by now. This is about character now. Period. You believe Clinton lacks it. I believe Obama lacks it. There is really nothing left to debate, is there? So don't be tedious. Obama displayed his character for everyone to see last night. If you like what you saw, celebrate. That is your candidate unwired. But please don't hide behind the fact that he didn't get to give his stump speech on the "issues."

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This is about character now. Period.

Spoken like a true Republican. The history of modern Republican campaigning is to tell people to ignore the things a president actually does that affect their lives, and instead focus on the idea that their candidate who traded in his supportive wife for a younger and more politically-connected model "shares their values."

Fortunately for the country, the polls this time seem to be showing either that this isn't "about character, period" or that voters aren't stupid enough to believe that flag pins and whose party you went to constitute "character."

I'm afraid that was one of the most incoherent rants I've heard in the echo chamber. I can't tell who or what you're talking about. Republican? That's an argument? Tedious.

He means, "Get back to the issues like I'm multi-ethnic/cultural, younger, and speak of hope and change, and the press likes me better so there won't be 4/8 years of divisiveness". Though perhaps he'll scratch the last part off his stump spe... oops, debate responses.

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One of the marks of a shill is the ability to pivot, change the subject from what you are talking about from what you want to be talking about. Another mark of a shill is that what you want to be talking about changes constantly, sometimes 180 degrees, depending on what's advantageous in the moment.

Billy Glad claimed that ABC's questions were based on what they determined small-town Pennsylvanians wanted to hear about... substantive issues like flag lapel pins, 30 seconds out of a preacher's career, comments at a fundraiser. Billy Glad therefore attempted to make the case that small-town Pennsylvania voters care more about those "issues" than a 30-year history of attacks on organized labor and the working class; the Supreme Court; food crises; a President asserting powers of a king or a dictator; farm, health, and industrial policy; and much more. For Billy Glad to claim that small-town Pennsylvanians don't care about these issues, the ones that actually will affect their lives in ways that flag lapel pins won't, insults the intelligence and savvy of small-town Pennsylvania voters and is, therefore, elitist.

Billy Glad also made a 180-degree turn on religion. Quite recently on these blogs he was mocking the "call and response" aspects of Obama's delivery, claiming that he had "gotten over" all that. A highly elitist slam on other people's religious practices and faith, as I pointed out in the relevant thread. Now, all of a sudden, Obama is an elitist when he points out that people who have been slammed economically sometimes seek refuge in faith -- despite Bill Clinton having said very similar things in his 1992 Presidential campaign.

So now, all of a sudden, Billy Glad doesn't want to talk about any of that. Now Billy Glad wants to claim that it's all about "character." (Of course, it's all about Obama's "character," rather than what, let us say, lying about an experience in Bosnia about supposedly running from airplane to shelter under enemy fire reveals about Hillary Clinton's "character," or what lying about her AND Obama's positions on NAFTA reveals about her "character", or hiring a union-busting, Big Oil/Big Tobacco shill as her chief campaign strategist reveals about her "character".) Billy Glad's own playing fast and loose with history, including his own; his own elitist beliefs about small town Pennsylvania voters -- what? Oh, look -- over there -- quick! A character! Look closely, and look hard, or you'll miss it... and don't pay any attention to any of the other stuff coming from Billy Glad's keyboard.

It is, in fact, Billy Glad who is revealing his "character."

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More from Billy Glad on religion:

I think [Obama's] speeches on religion in America are far more interesting. He sees the ignorance of the electorate as something to build a campaign on. He may be right.

That post is followed by a longer one from Billy, in which he quotes Obama's words that I reqpute above.

You see, when Obama discusses religion in positive terms, for Billy Glad, that's "building a campaign on the ignorance of the electorate." Not that that's an elitist comment or anything. When the media takes a comment by Obama that's actually sympathetic to small-town voters if you bother to read the whole thing, and spins it into a comment that, at absolute worst, agrees with what Billy Glad wrote in the material I quoted, that, to Billy Glad, is elitist.

Breathtaking.

Call the Whaaambulance.

Too funny.

The Hammer and Sickle are vote getters too.

Tell that to Obama as it seems to reflect his friend William C. ("Bill") Ayers who held a fund-raiser for Barry O after he had stated: "I don't regret setting bombs, I feel we didn't do enough."

Why kill the messenger? It was a good debate, Obama by all account lost. He was resentful and lacked clear answers. He still doesn't get the problems with some of his recent comments. And its about time we get some new questions at a debate instead of the policy discussions that have been exhaused in the past 25 debates.

It is entertaining to see all the whining here. If Obama can't handle this how in the world could he handle a general election?! Obviously he can't and a lot of you are shocked to see your candidate fall flat on his face.

Matthew
http://www.TheProblemWithObama.com

I don't think anyone minds the questions. I'm an Obama supporter, and I know these questions'll come up, and need to be answered.

But when even Pat Buchanan calls it a biased debate, and Ed Rendell goes on a tear w/ABC over their conduct, you have a problem. I mean, the flag pin, really? Come on, man!

Questions are fine. A witch-hunt is not -- and that's exactly what this was.

Matthew, if thats a recent picture, congratulations!

Well, I guess congrats even if the pic is old.

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i think he's going to eat them

AARGH CLINTON SUPPORTER HUNGERS FOR INNOCENT BLOOD

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Josh Marshall writes:

Reject and Denounce!

For once I agree, it is time to reject Barack Obama and denounce him for the fraud that he is.

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i am skimming all most of the usual blogs and Gibson and sidekick George is getting killed on all of the blogs.
the fact that tonight's debate was so poor on substance is what will be remembered the most and talked about the next few days, so the gains for Hillary wont be much

That's pretty much the Times take. Though they point out that Obama held back from taking low blows at Hillary while she....well, was just that inimitable Hillary we've all come to know and hope we dont' have to vote for.

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George and Charlie decided that they were invited to debate Senator Obama. They both kept interrupting him and tossing in counter point comments. They never did ot HIllary.

Barack did great against the debate tag team of Hillary, Charlie and Smurfanopolis.

I think the most disturbing thing that occurred to me tonight (and maybe I'm way behind the curve, here) is that there seems to be a developing consensus that the GOP will always win by default; that the Dem nominee's only path to victory is to hold up under the barrage of nonsense attacks from the GOP.

While there's a shred of legitimacy to the GOP-defense argument, it completely discounts the idea that fundamentals, policy positions, count for anything. The MSM seems to be treating policies as beside the point. This debate tonight was the most clear, unequivocal evidence of GOP Victory-bias I've seen.

And on the issue of Obama's performance, I thought he was pretty awful, and I'm a supporter. But to be fair, a Kos diarist made a really valid point; were this actually a general election debate, Obama could turn and pivot on McCain and blast away without restraint. He's really boxed in having to answer these general election questions with a fellow Dem for an opponent. I think that reality was written all over his face tonight.

Sigh.

It's actually worse than that. It's not only that the Republicans are supposed to win by default. The DLC Democrats have so internalized that idea that they believe they must BE Republicans to win. They don't even want to contest the election on issues and philosophy. All they want to do is compete to see who can run the most negative campaign ads.

Tonight's debate was a Republican-style piling on--4 against 1: Stefanopoulos, Gibson, Hillary, and the ghost of Sean Hannity vs. Obama.

Hillary was sickening in her pandering to the right-wing, with her phony self-righteous comments about Wright, Farrakhan (!), William Ayers, Obama's "elitist insults" against people of faith, blah, blah, etc. Jesus. It's getting difficult to remember Hillary and some of her most devout followers are supposed to be Democrats!

This piling on did put Obama on the defensive, but I think he did a good job reinforcing one of his main campaign messages: that the American people are sick of the phony distractions that make up this gotcha! style of politicking. He said it every time one of these bullshit "issues" was raised. It seems like neither Hillary nor the debate moderators understands this.

This is a different election. The old-style crap isn't working any more. It's a little sickening but amusing to watch the Hillary campaign and the lazy, brain-free MSM help Obama reinforce his message.

Hillary's hangin' herself with her own rope. It'll be the same during the general election, when the Republicans try pulling the same insulting crap.