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Clinton Not Ceding North Carolina
Despite Barack Obama's apparent edge in North Carolina -- much like Virginia before it, it has a lot of both African-Americans and urban white liberals -- Hillary Clinton is by all appearances making a major play for the state, in the hopes of making it a close race or even winning on friendly turf for Obama.
For example, the Clinton campaign has sent Averell "Ace" Smith, the leader of their efforts in both California and Texas, over here to run their operation. "He's their top primary manager," said former top Edwards adviser Joe Trippi. "They didn't send Ace Smith if they weren't going to try to compete."
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I'll be waiting for the inevitable, "Well, you know, Senator Obama was always going to win NC, and he outspent us 2-1, so it's no surprise that he won by 15 points."
That will be rich, indeed.
April 25, 2008 9:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
No that would be because 40% of NC Dem voters are African-Americans and Obama is going to get 99% of their votes.
April 25, 2008 11:01 AM | Reply | Permalink
Sounds like Ace ain't so confident:
Ace Smith, the Clinton campaign's state director, says "And to close the deal here in North Carolina, they'd have to beat us by high, high double-digits."
This is all about not falling any farther behind in the delegate count by allowing Obama to run up the score in favorable states.
It only took a few dozen primaries and caucuses, but the Clinton camp finally figured out how the delegate math works. Too bad it's too little, too late.
April 25, 2008 2:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Spend, Hillary, spend!
April 25, 2008 9:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
Exactly. Waste all the money you want in NC, it's not going to do a thing except cripple you for the remaining contests. I wouldn't expect any $10 million donations windfall after losing in NC and losing IN.
April 25, 2008 9:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
According to this:
http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2008/04/clinton_debt_la.html
Hillary has 5 Million more in debt than she is reporting. In other words even after the 10 Million she alledgedly raised (I don't believe it) she is still 5 million in the whole.
April 25, 2008 9:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
What remaining contests? All Clinton wants to do here is keep the popular vote totals as low as possible. She has no chance to win NC outright and change "the narrative" (although I'm sure Taylor Marsh and the Hillaryis44.org crew will spin a 20 point loss as a win even though a 10 point loss wasn't a win for Obama, in their minds)
April 25, 2008 9:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
Oregon
West Virginia
Kentucky
South Dakota
Montana
Puerto Rico
Guam
April 25, 2008 9:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thank god! She's got to fight for every last vote if she wants to keep her lead in the popular vote.
April 25, 2008 9:15 AM | Reply | Permalink
She doesn't lead the popular vote.
April 25, 2008 9:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
OK, she needs every vote if she wants to lead in the popular vote even excluding MI & FL. Now that would be a claim to the nomination.
April 25, 2008 9:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
Agreed. But that scenario is extremely unlikely.
April 25, 2008 9:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
It's more likely if she can keep NC close or even win it.
April 25, 2008 9:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
If Hillary wins NC, Obama will be in serious trouble. Lucky for him, he'll win by 15.
April 25, 2008 10:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
That and a $1.85 will get you a cup of coffee. This is a delegate contest. Not a popular vote contest, but a delegate contest.
April 25, 2008 9:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
Right, but I know you're more informed than that. It is a delegate race but there are two sets of delegates--pledged and super. Obama can't win with pledged alone. Neither can Hillary. They both need superdelegates to hand them the nomination. Now, Obama has said in the past that the superdelegates should follow the will of the people. If more people have voted for Hillary than Obama, then superdelegates should side with Hillary. It's really quite simple.
April 25, 2008 9:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
Right, but here's the thing - the real magic number of pledged delegates is 1627. That is 50% + 1 of the pledged delegates. That is the point at which EVERY SINGLE SUPERDELEGATE would have to vote against Obama to give Hillary the nomination - including the ~250 already endorsing him - and that isn't going to happen.
Obama needs 133 more pledged delegates to reach that number; Hillary needs 294. Even if Hillary gets 65% in each of the next 3 contests, Obama will still reach that number first. In fact, unless he loses EVERY remaining state by huge margins, there's no way he WON'T get that number.
This is over. Her people are just as capable of doing this calculation as anyone else. The only question that remains is why Hillary is staying in the race. This is the time when you start considering ulterior motives.
April 25, 2008 11:14 AM | Reply | Permalink
Playing around with Slate's delegate counter, it looks like Obama will reach 1628 delegates around May 20th, officially giving him the majority of all pledged delegates.
If the current trend of superdelegates continues, he should be even or in the lead with regard to superdelegates at that point as well.
April 25, 2008 12:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Far as I understand it, Hillary doesn't lead the popular vote either excluding or including MI and FL. The only way she has a lead in the popular vote is to INCLUDE HER OWN VOTES in MI, but EXCLUDING THE UNCOMMITTED VOTES (i.e. claiming that there are no Obama voters in Michigan at all).
Try this: go to http://www.realclearpolitics.com/horseraceblog/chooseyourown.html
In the top orange field under "Net Clinton Votes" enter ".094" (= 9.4%) to reflect the result of yesterday's primary (or was it 8.5% - whichever number it was, put that in). In the remaining orange fields directly below this field, enter "0" (as these contests haven't yet taken place and are thus not included in Hillary's claim).
Then look further down for the counts obtained under various scenarios. In almost all cases (all but 2), it's Obama who has received more votes than Clinton. Clinton has only obtained more in TWO scenarios (and these are only slim leads as it is):
-- "Include MI and FL. Exclude Caucus Estimates. No MI Votes To Obama."
-- "Include MI, FL, Caucus Estimates. Use WA Primary. No MI Votes To Obama."
In other words, the ONLY scenarios in which she is ahead are the ones in which Clinton voters in Michigan count, but Obama voters do not. So much for Clinton weeping for the disenfranchised voters of Michigans, huh?
April 25, 2008 9:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
She's more than happy to have a revote in MI. By all means, let's give those voters a say.
April 25, 2008 9:48 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hey, fine by me. Unlike Hillary, Obama has always improved his numbers when he actually campaigned in a state.
Hillary has expended a lot of verbiage about how the voters in Michigan and Florida should count. It is brazenly, breathtakingly dishonest of her to now only want to credit the votes for her and disenfranchise all the rest.
April 25, 2008 12:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama has no claim on MI's uncommitted votes. They are uncommitted. But, Clinton does have claim to votes to her.
The fair thing to do in MI would be for Clinton to get her delegates and either a) make the others uncommitted and chosen by the state party or b) split the remaining delegates 50/50.
BTW, the Florida delegation should be seated per the vote since both candidates were on the ballot and had equal chance for votes. Obama even had the edge since he broke his pledge to not advertise in the state.
See MyDD.com for analysis that shows Clinton's slim lead in popular vote and Obama's slim lead in delegates. Either can still win at this point.
Matthew
http://www.TheProblemWithObama.com
When you take this into account, Clinton has a popular vote lead and is only barely slightly behind in delegate count. Check out MyDD.com for more analysis.
April 25, 2008 10:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
This post should be titled: "Take a trip down the rabbit hole with Matthew Weaver and Mayor McCheese."
1. What happened to all the worries about "disenfranchised" voters? Are you actually contending that there are no Obama supporters in MI?
Of course not. You're merely saying that these people shouldn't count. They bundled-up and traipsed thru freezing January weather to vote AGAINST Hillary and yet, they shouldn't be counted.
So, here's a thought: You can't be CERTAIN who supported Obama and who supported Edwards. But you CAN be certain that those people stood in line to vote for "uncommitted" which is to say that they stood in line to vote against Hillary.
So, if you're going to count Hillary's numbers from Michigan, you should take her votes, subtract from them the uncommitted vote, and then add the remainder to her totals.
Sure, it's the same net effect as giving them to Obama, but it's more intellectually honest all the way around.
Of course, in your fantasy land, where you care about "disenfranchised voters" so long as it helps YOU, you'd dismiss this entirely.
But, honestly, you can count whomever you want, however you want. This race is O-VER. I know you like to cling to fairy tales but this isn't going to work out for you.
The race has been over since February.
Hillary can't catch up. And you have this wonderful notion that SD's will run in and save her.
But tell me: What's stopping them? Why is it that SD's have endorsed for Obama at a rate of 6:1 since Super Tuesday?
The truth is that Hill needs 3/4 of the remaining super delegates, 3 for every 1 that Obama gets. But, as I said, they've been going 6 to Obama for every 1 Hillary gets. You think this is just, one day, going to upend itself?
Say hello to the Mayor for me. But watch out for the hamburgular.
April 25, 2008 11:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
Very, very nice.
But don't worry. Matthew Weaver is a coward and he won't bother responding to your resounding destruction of his delusions.
April 25, 2008 11:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
No, she doesn't have any claim to those votes. She agreed, in writing, not to participate in the election.
The fair thing is to declare that election null and void. If a revote can be arranged, that would be even better. But given the circumstances under which the election took place, never mind that the state parties knowingly broke the rules, it doesn't make sense to pretend that it was a fair election, nor to set a precedent of letting the state parties break the rules without consequences.
Have you ever tried to figure out how Hillary would have to perform from here on to overcome what you call a "slim lead in delegates"? She'd have to win 70-80% of the votes in all remaining contests. In Pennsylvania, where the demographics strongly favored her, she couldn't even break 55%!
You can think of Obama's lead as "slim", but there aren't a heck of a lot of delegates left on the table.
April 25, 2008 12:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
It would be "a" claim, although I don't agree that it'd be a very good one. If we had an official popular vote, then yeah, I'd say it was a strong case. But since the popular vote estimates are all over the place, the final
"popular vote" will be a guess at best.
April 25, 2008 9:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
It's a complicated scenario. Obama's camp will argue that the popular vote is an imperfect measure. Clinton's camp will argue that caucuses have disenfranchised her base across the nation--and point to the discrepancy between the primary and caucus results in TX & WA. No one will have a definitive claim to the nomination.
If we're really to do what's in the best interest of the party--Clinton/Obama 08, Obama/? 16
16 years of a progressive agenda.
April 25, 2008 9:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think it's unfathomable that the candidate who won the delegates (which is really what it's all about), won more states and will win the popular vote would take #2.
Maybe I'm biased (I try my hardest to look at things objectively) but it seems to me that that popular vote is imperfect and there is no denying it, since so many caucus states don't even have official counts. It's an estimate.
And, as I've said before, the blame the caucus argument rings really hollow. Everyone knew caucuses were on the schedule and she had no problem with them until she started losing them.
April 25, 2008 10:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
And I think it's unfathomable that the candidate who has more votes would be denied the nomination. Your "more states" argument rings as hollow to me as the "electoral votes" argument I'm sure sounds to you.
So, I'm saying if at the end of this Clinton is ahead in the popular vote including FL and projecting the caucus totals from IA, etc., and he's ahead in pledged delegates, no one can claim the other doesn't have a fair claim to the nomination.
April 25, 2008 10:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well, according to the DNC rules delegates count, not raw vote.
BUT, I will concede your point that, yes, if she is able to take the popular vote lead beyond a reasonable doubt, then of course that's her best argument and a good one.
April 25, 2008 10:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
Also, regarding the caucus argument. It's just something for the superdelegates to consider. She's not saying redo them. It's more like--look at who can't attend caucuses--my base: shift workers and the elderly.
When I was phone banking for her before WA, you'd be surprised at how many people told me only their husband/wife could go caucus because they couldn't get a babysitter. This is why we need the possibility of absentee ballotting.
April 25, 2008 10:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
You sure that's the argument you want to make?
You're sure?
ABSOLUTELY sure?
Well... ok.
So tell me - why can't Hillary attract any of the party activists, the young, the urban white males and females, the.... you get the point.
The only thing that can be taken away from this particular disagreement with caucuses is that Hillary is incapable of expanding her base of support. The exit polls in Pennsylvania show Obama making steady inroads in Hillary's base, yet Hillary has been completely unable to do the reverse.
THAT is what you are highlighting when you argue that Hillary's base "can't make it to the caucuses."
But it's way, way more than that - you're also saying that hey, just because Hillary's voters can't make it to caucuses, that means the people who DO go to caucuses don't count. They're "just those damned activists" and the young, after all. Nobody cares if we disenfranchise them, right? They don't matter, because MY people didn't vote there!
It's pure bullshit and if you have even a shred of intellectual honesty, and I think you do, you'll recognize that.
The reason it's bullshit? Because Hillary didn't start arguing this until she started losing caucuses.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Zi6mP6l6nBI
A nice juxtaposition on her ever changing opinion of the voters.
April 25, 2008 11:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
Why not Obama/Clinton then. The argument for considering the popular vote effectively disenfranchises the caucus states no matter how you slice it. The best metric and as it happens the only real metric is delegates.
April 25, 2008 10:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
Aren't we the party that wanted to abolish the electoral college after the 2000 debacle?
April 25, 2008 10:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
And I think it's unfathomable that the candidate who has more votes would be denied the nomination. Your "more states" argument rings as hollow to me as the "electoral votes" argument I'm sure sounds to you.
Point granted.
But, I guess, I'll worry about Clinton taking the popular vote when she actually does so.
April 25, 2008 10:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
do you actually exist in one of Pullman's alternate universes where an election is fair if only one person's name is on the ballot? are trials in your universe also fair if the defendant is not brought before the court and given a chance to defend him or her self?
the Mi popular vote argument by clinton and her backers is breathtaking in its brazen attempt at theft and fraud.
April 25, 2008 10:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
Of course I don't think it's fair. That's why I think we should revote.
April 25, 2008 10:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
LOL
April 25, 2008 9:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
Her "lead" in the popular vote includes Michigan, where she was the only one on the ballot, and excludes IA, ME, NV and WA--states where the voters apparently don't count, according to the Clinton campaign.
Her "lead" in the popular vote is a fiction, and it won't make a difference anyway. If she were to somehow pull off a win all the remaining states by a 55 to 45 margin (and Florida and Michigan were included) she'd still be 79 delegates behind.
She's trying to ride a dead horse to the finish line.
April 25, 2008 11:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
This isn't Super Tuesday. It's not like the campaign has to pick and choose among the many contests being held, choosing where to spend its scarce resources. It just pulled in $10 million in 24 hours. The top officials in the campaign are focused on Indiana, so they've sent their top local manager to North Carolina. That's the sum total of contests.
Just as Obama knew he couldn't win Pennsylvania, but spent six weeks campaigning there anyway, Clinton knows she can't win North Carolina, but will spend some real time on the hustings. They were each trying to keep the margins manageable, and to exceed expectations, a lower bar than victory.
April 25, 2008 9:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well, I'm glad she admits that NC matters.
April 25, 2008 9:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
Me too. She already wrote off my state; too many "wine-track" liberals for her taste. We're just not "regular" enough for the Clintons. She's a whiskey-girl, you know.
April 25, 2008 9:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
Another one bites the dust -- Is that how Queen put it?
April 25, 2008 9:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hillary needs to sweep the May 6th primaries or else the Supers will coalesce around Obama and the gig is up for her.
April 25, 2008 9:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think this is spot on.
April 25, 2008 9:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
Why can't Hillary "close the deal"?
April 25, 2008 9:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
Given all of her claims to be a superior candidate, she should be able to win North Carolina. Handily. If she can't, it says something about her ability to appeal to African-Americans, college-educated Democrats and young people, all of which have been Democratic loyalists in past elections or which are asserting themselves in this election.
April 25, 2008 9:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
She really needs to prove that she can win more than 10-15% of the African American vote in North Carolina, especially after Rep. Clyburn's comments yesterday. If she can't do that, there's just no way the super delegates can regard her as serious general election candidate. The Democrats aren't taking the White House back in November without big support from African American voters.
April 25, 2008 9:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
Aw, too bad. I was hoping she would replicate the brilliant February stratygy of not competing at all and playing the expectations game. That worked so well.
April 25, 2008 9:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
Ah yes, the "Let's just send Chelsea" strategy.
April 25, 2008 9:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hey TPM, why don't you report on how she is using push poll in NC to spread lies about Obama?:
http://www.thepersonalispolitical.com/2008/04/hillary-resorts-to-yet-another.html
April 25, 2008 9:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
She had better not. There's no way she can justify what she's doing to the party unless she wins the rest of the remaining contests. At the very least, she needs to come close in NC and keep up her PA margin in Indiana.
April 25, 2008 9:32 AM | Reply | Permalink
-- much like Virginia before it, it has a lot of both African-Americans and urban white liberals --
I know, Eric, where would Obama be without Blacks and Latte-Sippers?
April 25, 2008 9:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
These voters will be important in the fall. Why can't Hillary connect with them?
April 25, 2008 10:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
There are Hillary supporters in NC...? I havent seen much of any.
April 25, 2008 9:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
"I will OBLITERATE all the nomination rules. The nomination is mine, all mine, Bill promised it to me, in lieu of a divorce, many times over the past 35 years"
Hillary Obliterate Clinton
April 25, 2008 9:51 AM | Reply | Permalink
Obama can't win with pledged alone. Neither can Hillary. They both need superdelegates to hand them the nomination.
And at this point Hillary needs something around 80% of the remaining uncommitted superdelegates, more or less. The exact percentage depends on how she does in the remaining races, but even highly optimistic projections don't show her needing less than 75% or so, that I've seen.
Now, Obama has said in the past that the superdelegates should follow the will of the people. If more people have voted for Hillary than Obama, then superdelegates should side with Hillary. It's really quite simple.
If she is ahead in the popular vote not counting FL and MI (and not omitting any of the other states, as some of Hillary's spinners try to do sometimes) then that would certainly be a point in her favor. It's unlikely, but that makes it all the more significant if she somehow succeeds. I think if she pulls ahead in the popular vote counting every state but MI that's clearly a point in her favor, too, although having to count FL take a little bit of the shine off of that metric.
But you're oversimplifying things to reach the "quite simple" conclusion you reach.
First of all, whatever Obama and Hillary say about how the supers "should" choose, they're not obligated to make the decision in any particular fashion. I'd guess that few if any will make the decision based on any one metric. They'll look at the popular vote overall, but also at the popular vote in their own state, and where applicable, the popular vote in their own district.
They'll also look at the pledged delegate totals, because it's ultimately a race for delegates and if the supers end up overruling the pledged delegates it's not going to go over very well. They'll need a compelling reason to do that, and edging out Obama in the popular vote is just one data point.
April 25, 2008 9:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hillary has as much of a chance to win my home state as I do of sprouting wings and flying.
I can't repeat it enough of say it too loud - North Carolina is DEFINITELY Obama country. I don't think I've seen any recent poll with a higher Clinton number than 41, and that's the approximate ceiling. I expect a margin of 15-25 points.
Wonder how the jerkweed media will report the contrast? After the 2 worst weeks of Obama's campaign, Clinton wins by 9% in what is arguably her best state, demographically speaking. Two weeks later, after the media narrative of Hillmentum!!! (TM, idiotic), Obama wins a state with favorable demographics for him by 15+. Game, set, match. Not that it will be reported that way - need to keep selling ads by pretending there's still a competitive race.
I go by Obama's Raleigh HQ everyday. Much activity and enthusiam - white and black, young and old, male and female. Our democratic primary electorate is highly educated and highly African American. Both gubernatorial candidates are strong Obama supporters. There is no pro-Clinton machine to bail her out.
I voted early and will proudly serve as an attorney volunteer (monitoring polls) on election day. I'm 34 years old, married with three kids, and have never done anything like this before (pretty strong introvert). But it's like a calling - I feel that I simply MUST do something, and that giving money isn't enough. I can't imagine that I'm alone.
April 25, 2008 10:01 AM | Reply | Permalink
This is all for show. After blowing this election by not competing in states... she is now trying to show "oh look...I'm a fighter!"
But check out the article on Politico.com.
The superdelegates are just waiting for the end of the primaries to back Obama. If he wins both states on may 6th... there will be a mad dash.
But, regardless, at the end.... they will back the candidate with the most pledged delegates. THAT is the measure of victory.
I suspected as much.... thank GOODNESS they haven't lost teir sanity.
Go OBAMA '08
April 25, 2008 10:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
Exactly. He takes IN then this thing is over the next day.
April 25, 2008 10:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
Lost her mind
April 25, 2008 11:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
Be prepared for the worse 2 weeks of the campaign...
She is going to throw everything possible...
She has no other choice...
April 25, 2008 12:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Believe me, as someone who's canvassed in five primaries, the Clintons have lost the AA support for good. It ain't ever coming back.
April 25, 2008 12:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
In an article further up, Ace Smith says:
That really doesn't sound like competing. That sounds like managing expectations.
Hillary is just planning to whine about getting outspent after the election is over. She can't take the heat.
April 25, 2008 12:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
About Hillary's "lead" in the popular, given all of the ins and outs of Michigan and Florida, there is a technical term that applies to an advantage of this sort.
It is called,
a lie.
Another fucking lie. From Hillary, comin' right atyah!
April 25, 2008 12:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Blacks make up a large percentage of the Democratic vote in N. Carolina. They are a much smaller percentage of the overall vote, which means they will have less impact in November. Because it is a winner-take-all State they will be voting for Obama in May and McCain in November.
April 25, 2008 1:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
No that would be because 40% of NC Dem voters are African-Americans and Obama is going to get 99% of their votes.
Doh! It's those pesky Negroes again. Why do those people keep voting? They only vote for other blacks, you know.
April 25, 2008 2:02 PM | Reply | Permalink