Poll: Two Thirds Say Hillary Should Stay In Even If She Loses One Big State
Some commentators have said that Hillary should drop out of the race if she doesn't win both Ohio and Texas today, but rank and file Dems don't seem to agree:
Two-thirds of Democrats say a victory in either Ohio or Texas would be reason enough for Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (N.Y.) to keep her historic bid for the party's presidential nomination alive, according to a new Washington Post-ABC News poll.Two losses, however, would dramatically change the equation. Only 29 percent of Democrats said Clinton should drop out if she loses one of the two big states, but that number jumps to 51 percent if she loses both.
This suggests that rank and file Dems haven't really focused on the reality of the delegate math, which in turn suggests that the onus may be on the Obama camp to get out their message about their sizable pledged delegate lead a bit more effectively.
Whatever the cause, numbers such as these might persuade the Hillary camp that she'd have public support if she stayed in the race despite losing a big state today, perhaps making that decision more likely.


As an Obama voter (migrated from Edwards),I see no reason why she should drop out as long as she has even a slim chance. And I don't buy this stuff about how she's tearing down Obama and hurting the party. Her attacks are just lite versions of the pasting he (or she, for that matter) can expect in the fall, and the idea that her advisers are thinking of any material the GOP slime machine wouldn't come up with on its own is frankly ludicrous. If Obama can't come up with ways to effectively parry her attacks, he'd be toast in the fall in any case. Anyway, look how well having an early presumptive nominee worked for us in 2004.
The race keeps Dems in the news and forces the candidates to build ground organizations in state after state that could be very valuable resources in November. It's not all bad by any means.
March 4, 2008 8:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
She has to win huge in the rest of the states, she has to win in bigger numbers then she did in NY. It isnt going to happen, she needs to concede.
March 4, 2008 8:48 AM | Reply | Permalink
This poll was designed to make Clinton look bad, as they were hoping a majority would want her to drop out if she lost either Texas or Ohio.
How do I know this? Because they didn't ask if she should drop out if she won *both* states - a high percentage there would be evidence of strong support and momentum, if she does win both.
March 4, 2008 10:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
By all means yes, Hillary should stay in and continue to campaign on Republican "lite" themes like - John McCain would make a better commander in chief than Obama or that we have to take Obama at his word that he is not a Muslim. It's all for the good of the party.
March 4, 2008 8:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
The press has just started scrutinizing Obama last week. We'll have to wait and see how it goes from now on. How will he go on from here without support from the press?
March 4, 2008 9:32 AM | Reply | Permalink
Wow.... so you bought into the idea that the press has been harder on Clinton than it has been on Obama? I tell you what, her campaign may suck at a lot of important things, but its media manipulation is downright masterful....
March 4, 2008 12:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
I understand your point, but those comments coming from Clinton (or her approving the message) can carry more weight than coming from McCain.
That said, I'd like to see her stay in for the reasons you mention, but only if she tones down the rhetoric somewhat and stops following the Republican play book.
March 4, 2008 9:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
After tonight, if HRC wins both TX and OH, at best Hillary's delegate gain will be minimal. Small margins of victory tonight wont change the reality of her situation.
Like Mitt Romney, she cant catch up, and like Mitt, i think she will look at the reality of her situation and drop out, if not this week, sometime before the Pennsylvania primary.
March 4, 2008 8:51 AM | Reply | Permalink
If she wins Texas and Ohio, look for Clinton supporters to suggest that Obama drop out! (Seriously, I expect it if that happens, although it won't be from the majority of them.)
March 4, 2008 9:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
I have already seen suggestions that he drop out if Clinton wins both states. In fact, I have seen the inkling of suggestions that he drop out if Clinton wins Ohio, because "why should we let Republican Texas decide our nominee?"
It truly is the silly season (and no, Obama supporters are not immune from the silliness, either....)
March 4, 2008 10:51 AM | Reply | Permalink
Get out! You have no chance of catching up!!! You are destroying our chance in Novemeber with this nonsense.
Superdelegates will not put you over the top, Hillary. You are done.
March 4, 2008 9:01 AM | Reply | Permalink
What do you think of the McCain endorsement, Greg?
March 4, 2008 9:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
If this goes on, and I think it will, Obama is going to go hard negative too just like the Hillary camp has and John McCain is going to be laughing it up. Why does he have to worry about his mini fundraising efforts when you have two heavyweights destroying each other? I used to like Hillary but after the past few weeks I am holding on by a thread. This is what she does I think, plays politics and manages to squeak out wins while making her opponents despise her. Well now her opponents are Democrats and she is at risk of rendering the party. I remember the first debate Hillary and Obama had after John Edwards dropped out. I was so polite and serious, I was very proud of the Democratic party. Not today. I have just a thread left now...
March 4, 2008 9:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
I am right there with you, thentro.
March 4, 2008 9:32 AM | Reply | Permalink
What is the hurry. Let voters in the remaining states have a say in the selection process. Let the remaining two in the race test each other, so that we can find out wich one is best suited to go up against McCain.
March 4, 2008 9:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
This Dem says please let us come together now! Let this not drag on any further.
March 4, 2008 9:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
She's already endorsed McCain, so she may as well stay in. It can only help him at this point.
March 4, 2008 9:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
Headline should say "Would" not "Should" stay in the race. I think anyone following the primaries realizes that HRC wants that nomination badly, and this has resulted in the Kitchen Sink negative campaign to try to recapture momentum. I think it would take a decisive loss in both TX and OH for her to concede that the numbers are just too much against her. So of course she Would (Will) choose to stay in.
Whether she 'Should' is a topic for debate, of course.
March 4, 2008 9:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
She's in at least through Pennsylvania. Get used to it. The upside for Clinton, if she carries Ohio and Texas, is great "momentum". But with "momentum" comes media scrutiny, as we've seen with Obama since Wisconsin. The question then is whether Obama can feed the press negative material as effectively as Hillary has done the last few weeks without hurting the positive energy that has fueled his campaign so far. I think he has already hurt himself by focusing too much attention on Hillary (NAFTA and the war vote) instead of staying on message.
I would like Hillary to explain why she has declined to sign the American Freedom Pledge:
http://www.thenation.com/blogs/campaignmatters?pid=239574
March 4, 2008 9:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
This reflects the media's desire to drag this out
and their pore job of informing the voters. The public isn't aware of the delegate math. Adn the election won't be won by Penn and Ickes spinning this creatively. It doesn't look like she will win enough today to catch up, and she may actualy lose some delegates.
Dragging his out only helps McCain. he rank and file might not see the trainwreck coming, but the party insiders surely do. That is why Clinton friend Richardson said we should wrap this up tomorrow and support whoever is ahead at that point.
March 4, 2008 9:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
"[W]hoever is ahead at that point"?!?
Even if she takes takes all four states by 75%, wouldn't Obama still be ahead at that point?
March 4, 2008 9:32 AM | Reply | Permalink
Odd what was chosen for highlight from this article. Why not this, for example?
"At the general-election level, half of Democrats and Democratic-leaning independents across the country would like to see Sen. Barack Obama (Ill.) as the party's presidential candidate; 43 percent would rather Hillary Clinton be the nominee."
March 4, 2008 9:14 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well, given the shift of the media to laud Hillary and ignore Obama, I suppose it isn't strange that that information wasn't left out. Thanks for pointing it out, Dirk.
March 4, 2008 9:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
One more thing:
You can't lose your way to the White House.
She can stay in if she wants. It just won't get her the nomination, and will only hurt the party.
March 4, 2008 9:15 AM | Reply | Permalink
This just shows how Democrats love to lose, and they rarely have their best interests in mind. It is bad enough nearly half of Dems support(ed) Hillary, the electoral Typhoid Mary, but now that she doesn't even have a chance at winning the nomination, why would anyone want her to stay and keep backstabbing Obama?
March 4, 2008 9:15 AM | Reply | Permalink
the idea that her advisers are thinking of any material the GOP slime machine wouldn't come up with on its own is frankly ludicrous.
To say that she's not doing anything the GOP slime machine wouldn't also do isn't much of a defense!
March 4, 2008 9:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
Senator Hillary Clinton picks John McCain over Senator Obama, for President. I guess she will not be looking for any support from those who have voted for Senator Obama. Watch her disparage a fellow Democrat, and praise the Republican.
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
March 4, 2008 9:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
Your link doesn't work.
This one pretty much captures everything that Camp Hillary has been up to over the last few days, solidifying her nomination as John McCain's running mate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-4mJLqW4Y4
March 4, 2008 10:14 AM | Reply | Permalink
"If this goes on, and I think it will, Obama is going to go hard negative"
And if he does he will be spending the good will of all those young people clamoring for something different. I think Obama should get back on message, and defend himself against attacks (as he has done so well to date) without going on the offensive (which I belive has hurt him in Texas and Ohio). It's the only way to ward off the evil spirits.
Those of us who have supported Obama prefer reasoned arguments to negative soundbites. It was a winning strategy and I think it's still viable.
March 4, 2008 9:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
How do we know that Obama hasn't been on message? He hasn't had any TV time since last week. The TV media have excluded him, and have focused entirely on Hillary... to the point of asking her about Obama's religion. Seriously... what is going on?
March 4, 2008 9:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
What's going on is the media were more than willing pawns for Hillary's campaign ...an extension of her campaign.
It is an utter disgrace how they have been whores for her even after they know she cannot win enough delegates and let's be clear this is a contest about delegates, not the size of the states won. Even if she wins OH, Obama will win enough delegates in VT alone to offset any delegates she accumulates in OH.
The media is not covering Barack 'the contender' they are giving full coverage to Hillary 'the heavyweight'...just like Barack said he has to knock her out as he is the challenger. As the defending champ, she is not going down from these cummulative blows. The judges are not going to call the fight on points for the contender he has to knock her out to take the crown.
It is time for Obama to knock her out, completely. It will show his judgment to use all manner of diplomacy and exhaust all options to negotiate but when in the end it is our national security at stake he is willing to make the judgment call to defend our interest (dems in this scenario) with the full might and force that the United States can bring to bear on any country, foe or 'evil empire' whether they be stateless terrorists or Korea. He has to take her down decisively and that means exposing all her dirty laundry and faux lifetime experience and most importantly how that experience has resulted in her repeating the same mistakes over and over..she didn't learn from her experience. That is what the supposed value is of experience and Obama has to hammer home that she doesn't learn. Whether, it is health care or the war in Iraq or NAFTA...Hillary repeats the same mistakes..war, the economy and healthcare are the core issues where he needs to demonstrate her lack of judgment. The poor judgment she earned and continues to exhibit despite her 'lifetime of experience"
It is time. Obama has the folks who believe he represents new politics and a new directions he needs to gain those voters who want a warrior. He only needs to show them that he is more than capable to fight to the finish and they will be on board.
He can then continue on as the superb statesman that he is having demonstrated that he has the testicular foritude to take down any threat to us.
March 4, 2008 10:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
It's not a defense; I'm not especially happy about it. It's simply pointing out that the idea she's damaging him for the general election is dubious. One could just as well argue that she's toughening him up and forcing him to refine his message. He'd better learn how to keep getting his message out and how to respond to attacks without getting too distracted (as he seems to have done the past week).
March 4, 2008 9:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
Anyone notice the big swing toward Hillary in the InTrade numbers this morning? Obama has dropped 9 points from yesterday. Clearly the new poll numbers are giving Hillary supporters some hope, but I can't see a way for her to win, short of making a pledge now that should she be nominated she will pick Obama as her VP, and then campaigning like she is the presumptive frontrunner and Obama is her presumptive VP. And that would mean ending these Rovian attacks against Obama and directing them at McCain.
March 4, 2008 9:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
I would also point out that according to the Clinton campaign, super-delegates (who have been pushing her to drop out if she does not make up significant ground) should not listen to the will of the people. So I'm sure she will continue to insist supers should vote their conscience.
March 4, 2008 9:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
I am beginning to agree with those who think Hillary should not drop out after today if there is a split decision re: TX/OH. If she loses both definitely yes. Even Big Bill, Chelsea, and Carville say so.
But the bitterness and probably lawsuits she will launch if she is forced out after a split decision can be more disastrous to the party than letting her continue her increasingly futile quest at least through Pennsylvania. You know, it's like the old adage about giving someone enough rope.
If after today's counting is over, Obama still has a plurality of close to 150 delegates, she is mathematically toast, but politically she has enough clout, esp. with the press now walking on eggs, to insist the she is still in the game.
The stark reality is that if Hillary drops out, it will be when she decides to. From her point of view why should she start listening to the party elders? As far as she and Bill are concerned, they ARE the Democratic party.
From Obama's point of view however, he has to finally start thinking about going negative on Hillary because she is only going to ramp it up after today. So far he has stuck to the issues, but that may no longer be feasible, given her style of politics.
Just yesterday she threw Obama under the bus and praised McCain in the same interview. In some circles this is called giving comfort to the enemy. To Hillary this is just another day at the office.
March 4, 2008 9:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
"But the bitterness and probably lawsuits she will launch if she is forced out after a split decision can be more disastrous to the party than letting her continue her increasingly futile quest at least through Pennsylvania."
What are you talking about? Surely if she withdraws she won't be "launching lawsuits."
March 4, 2008 9:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
I concede the logical inconsistency here. I think I meant threatening lawsuits before withdrawing, as she has already indicated she might over the Texas style primary-caucus.
March 4, 2008 9:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
Obama has been talking about the math. However, the TV Media, and even TPM, have completely shifted their attention to Hillary and have largely ignored Obama over the past several days. The only stories that mention Obama include Rezko or Hillary. On the other hand, we have stories about Hillary defining Obama's religion. Am I the only one that sees something wrong with this picture?
Yet again, the media is deciding what information will reach the public. This primary has been set up by the media's selective coverage of Hillary and exclusion of Obama. Its both depressing and infuriating.
TPM, you aren't outside of this criticism. However, since most of your video depends upon TV media, it is understandable that you would have less video of Obama when the TV media excludes him from their news casts.
March 4, 2008 9:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
Sure, but that is largely unavoidable. The news rooms want the horse race to drag on for as long as possible. It makes good copy. You have to expect that they are going to play up the "Clinton can still surprise everyone and win" line because that helps to keep the whole show playing. It is as natural and expected as rains in April or cake at a birthday party. A good campaign has to plan with this sort of dynamic in mind.
March 4, 2008 1:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hillary's McCain endorsement shows it's now a declared war in the Democratic party. It's going to be "take no prisoners" from here to the end regardless of how today goes. Hillary is in it to the bitter end, and she is guaranteeing that it will be bitter. I hope it's not true, but the trend now is a growing mutual hatred that will destroy the party.
March 4, 2008 9:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
Senator Hillary Clinton picks John McCain over Senator Obama, for President. I guess she will not be looking for any support from those who have voted for Senator Obama. Watch her disparage a fellow Democrat, and praise the Republican.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ou4JnWQsxKw&eurl=http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0308/Clinton_on_Obama_and_McCain.html
March 4, 2008 9:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well, if Obama can't take a kitchen sink slap, better to find out now then in 6 months.
March 4, 2008 9:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
Sure, a fine point that. I want Sen Obama to win, but I concede that if Clinton does win at this point, coming from this far behind, it would prove that she really is the stronger nominee. If that were the case, then I would agree that it would be all for the best if she took the nomination. Nota bene that "if," of course. I do not expect her to win, in large measure because I am thoroughly convinced at this point that Obama is the stronger candidate. Still, I agree that if she is able to turn this around, that would prove that we are better off with her than with him.
March 4, 2008 1:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
greg, i really appreciate your fair-mindedness in these comment sections. if only there were more like you!
(sorry for the double post, but somehow this reply posted down at the bottom of this page.)
March 4, 2008 2:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
"the onus may be on the Obama camp"
Oh, and why would that be, Greg? Because it's his job - and his job alone - to inform every no-information voter out there? You wouldn't have any responsibility in that regard, would you?
What's the threshold here, in terms of Hillary's messaging? I'm curious. When, if ever, does it become anathema to what the Democratic party stands for?
March 4, 2008 9:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
"Whatever the cause, numbers such as these might persuade the Hillary camp that she'd have public support if she stayed in the race despite losing a big state today..."
Yeah, as if Hillary needed this poll to persuade her to stay in.
March 4, 2008 9:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
The article also shows how poorly the delegate count is being covered. Realistically, there is no difference in delegates between a two point win for Clinton in Ohio and Texas and a two point Obama win in those states. The Clinton camp have done a great job playing the expectations game and making a narrow win seem meaningful.
March 4, 2008 9:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think Governor Richardson is right. The person who trails in pledged delegates tomorrow should concede.
If Clinton's negative campaigning works in Texas and Ohio, and she ekes out victories, then Obama will be forced to do so in kind. We will have a democratic blood bath.
Hillary needed to win TX and OH in double digits. That is not going to happen. She will blunt Obama's momentum, but she will not make a depreciable difference in the delegate count. The math simply doesn't add up.
Meanwhile, the republican's will have selected their nominee, and they will begin making their case to the American people. Moreover, McCain will start framing both Obama and Clinton as inexperienced light weights.
The simple truth is, there is no good reason to drag this process out into late April. Hillary will not have the math on her side, and the campaigning will get increasingly negative turning voters in the middle off.
March 4, 2008 9:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
She's not going to drop out and it's not for any of us to suggest that she do so until she's ready. The reality is that the Clintons, once again, have done a fantastic job of manipulating/working the media. Lost down the memory hole is the fact that she lead by 20+ points in both Ohio and Texas two weeks ago. Be that as it may, if she wins, she's in. If she splits, she's in. There's no prospect of her losing all 3 of 4 or all, so you can get those scenarios out of your mind.
The other beautiful thing they've done is convince the media that the upcoming caucus (Wyoming) and primary (Mississippi) don't matter. All are focused on Pennsylvania, which is SIX WEEKS away. So when she loses by double digits this weekend and next Tuesday, it won't matter. Even though whatever net pledged delegates she picks up today will be washed out by those two victories, my guess is that the media will dismiss those victories as irrelevant.
So, she's gotten what she wants: a change in the media narrative. Love her or hate her, you have to respect her ability to bring the media to heel. The media isn't going to be critical of her or her tactics over the last few days for fear of being accused of mistreating her. What it is going to take is a grassroots effort to change this thing on the ground (yet again). Again, movement candidates and campaigns live or die by energy and momentum. Keep that in mind tonight and tomorrow--the HRC supporters will be out in force and as obnoxious as they were in the fall before this dance began.
March 4, 2008 9:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm guessing on Wed. the Obama campaign will announce they have raised $60 million in Feb., money that will be used to help us all remember what Whitewater was about, Hillary's famous billing sheets, all about Hillary and Bill's lucrative relationships with the corporate world and lobbyists, the skeletons in the Clinton closet, and much much more. When the Clintons began endorsing the Republican nominee over Obama, when they began darkening the skin of Obama in their Ads, when they do the drum beat about the Muslim Louis Farakhan Black connection, when they start coordinating attacks with the Conservative party of Canada, haven't we come to an all-out internecine war? The Dem. voters will get more than they bargained for in a protracted struggle.
March 4, 2008 9:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
From the front page:
And yet, look at the delegate counts, or what they seem likely to be. We've run the numbers, and even assuming a very big night for Clinton, she seems unlikely to make more than a small dent in Obama's lead of roughly 150 pledged delegates. Indeed, she could actually do quite well on the popular vote side and end up falling behind a bit further on pledged delegates.
The upshot is that the Clinton campaign may come out of tonight with a major shot in the arm and a round of good press and yet still be in more realistic a position to win the nomination based on the stubborn tally of delegates.
Two things.
1. Isnt't the 1st paragraph the whole point? That even with big wins she won't make any meaningful gain in the delegate count? That should be the WHOLE STORY.
2. The 2nd paragraph. Should that read "...yet still be in NO more realistic a position..."
March 4, 2008 9:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
I agree hyperRevue
The entire story is that she does not have the delegates to win anything. The entire story is that the primary is about delegates. It is about winning delegates not states. The public should be being told that the popular vote is not the criteria for winning. Just like with Al Gore it is the delegates that count.
The entire story is that Hillary has not been able to close the deal that in state after state Obama has come for 20 points down to win the delegates needed.
The entire story is that not once during this entire campaign has Hillary led in pledged delegates. This is not the general election. Hillary is running to get delegates and she just is not getting them.
If only Josh, the mainstream media, and bloggers would start telling the REAL story, we might see some real fair and balanced coverage for a change.
March 4, 2008 10:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
I wonder how many Democrats heard her say this from Austin last night about the Iraq invasion?
"We have given them the gift of freedom, the greatest gift you can give someone. Now it is really up to them to determine whether they will take that gift."
That's how she views what has happened in Iraq under force of American arms? "The gift of freedom"? And just how does that differ from the GOP position?
March 4, 2008 9:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
It doesn't. She's running in the wrong primary.
March 4, 2008 10:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
The only way Sen. Clinton can win this is by continuing to go negative all the way to the convention.
If she somehow manages to win the nomination, yes, I'll probably vote for her but she's not going to get a cent of my money or a second of my volunteering time.
On the other hand I'll gladly contribute the maximum to Obama. He should be rewarded for running a clean positive primary campaign.
March 4, 2008 9:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
As an Obama supporter, Hillary is right. If she wins the nomination, I will be voting for McCain in the fall. He's the most experienced candidate and experience is all that matters.
Thank you Hillary for making the most cogent argument for why McCain should be President!
March 4, 2008 9:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
I would think that 'a majority of democrats' carry about as much weight as 'a majority of the delegates'. Remember, many of those delegates are based on red states where the dems have no chance to win and on crossover rethugs votes in caucus states and other states where crossover was permitted (it's not clear to me that Obama is the party's choice). In any case, Clinton, or Obama, should stay in as backup should the other implode as an implosion without backup would leave the party without a viable candidate. In the final analysis, ythis isn't about Clinton or Obama, it is about the dems winning the presidency in Nov.
March 4, 2008 9:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
"Love her or hate her, you have to respect her ability to bring the media to heel."
No I don't.
March 4, 2008 9:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
Seriously. Could there be a less respectable way to run a campaign?
March 4, 2008 10:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
we'd all love to have a respectful campaign, but that is just not the way it works... and don't fool yourself about Obama. i would not call his campaign "respectful."
i would say that obama's campaign has been brilliant, well-organized, well-funded, etc., but i wouldn't call it "respectful"... then again i support Hillary, so maybe i'm more sensitive to the attacks and distortions that Obama's campaign has launched against Hillary.
BUT, that is just the way that the game is played. if he didn't fight back and launch his own attacks and distort her words and positions, then he wouldn't be winning. period.
March 4, 2008 10:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
Glad to see you wake up to this point of view. I remember a week and something ago you were peeved with Obama (and myself) for exploiting unfair images of Clinton in the press for his own advantage. As I pointed out then (and as you are now claiming yourself) questions of whether a campaign is "fair" or "positive" are largely beside the point, except insofar as voters can be won by projecting an image (not necessarily in tune with the reality) of being "fair" or "positive."
I certainly agree with you that there is nothing in Clinton's latest strategy that is really so far beyond the pale as others are suggesting. Clinton is merely playing to win, just like Obama. I still favor Obama and not only want him to win, but expect him to at this point, but I can hardly fault Clinton for doing what it takes to keep her own campaign competitive. As I said earlier to Desidero, if she can still pull it off and win, this would prove that she really is the stronger candidate.
In other words, however this is finally settled, we should all be glad of the eventual outcome. If Obama wins despite the huge odds from which he had to emerge at the beginning of the race, it proves that he is the stronger candidate. If Clinton climbs back out of the whole that she has dug for herself over the last two months, it proves that she is the stronger candidate. Given that we all want the strongest democratic candidate possible (right? that is what we all want, right?), we should all be pleased with whomever actually wins in the end.
March 4, 2008 1:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
i recall that exchange... i don't remember it quite as you do, however! i don't think that i've ever ruled out playing hardball. i think that i was just questioning whether an obama supporter was in favor of him getting some mud on his suit... many (not you) seem to imply that hillary is the only one who will "do anything to win"...
i wish i knew where to find that exchange, but i don't think that i was ever really some doe-eyed idealist! LOL.
March 4, 2008 2:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
The exchange to which I was refering was in the Lanny Davis "race card" thread. It was this post in particular which I had in mind when I said you were peeved with me and my fellow Obama partisans. My apologies if I am mischaracterizing your remarks, but certainly you can see how one might be left with the impression that you were claiming that Obama and his supporters were somehow unjust in pressing their advantage.
March 4, 2008 3:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
i see your point, greg...
but in the earlier posts i was really going after the press for running with swiftboat-like crap off of the drudge report and obama's campaign for stoking it...
in today's post, i was saying not to expect any campaign to be "respectful"...
i can see how you might have come to the conclusion that i had "woken up", but i think there is a difference between not be respectful and swiftboating...
maybe i'm splitting hairs or maybe i'm just rationalizing??? if so, then you may very well have a point!
March 4, 2008 4:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Er "if she climbs back out of the hole..." not "out of the whole..." Sorry for that.
March 4, 2008 3:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Even if they're certain Obama will be the nominee, a beat up and bloodied Obama is in the Clintons' best interest. In November, she can start rolling our her "I told you so" campaign for the 2012 nomination.
March 4, 2008 9:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
I had no problem with Hillary staying in so long as she continued in a testy, yet somewhat positive manner. For the most part, the combat of the last two months has improved both candidates. But the last two weeks have proven she would rather elect McCain than allow Obama, who she clearly views as unworthy, become president. How can you sit next to him and say you're honored to be on the same stage and then turn around and say McCain is more qualified to be C-in-C? Obama faces a tough enough road against McCain. To start smearing him now, before he could consolidate the party and build his strength, doesn't make him tougher, but damages him in a way GOP attacks couldn't. How does she win the nomination without destroying the both of them? Obama's not going to take this lying down, which guarantees the race will only get much uglier. Unless it's all show before she bows out, today will be seen as the beginning of the end for the Dems in 2008.
March 4, 2008 9:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yes Ben they will probably call for Obama to drop out which underscores even more how the press has failed to communicate that Obama has lead with the pledged delegates every since IA. Clinton has never lead with pledged delegates. Despite, the claims of the press giving Obama a free pass. When you look at the coverage critically, it is Hillary who has had the free pass.
The press continues not to cover how he has come from behind by almost 20 points in every state to win. They are not covering how organized his campaign is nor how he had a 50 state strategy whereas Clinton did not.
If Clinton supporters want to make the case that Obama cannot close the deal, I think that applies far more aptly to Hillary.
After all, it is she who has the 'lifetime of experience' who was the 'inevitable' candidate and in command of whas was inarguably the best politic machine with the most money for day one. So, indisputably it is Hillary who has been the candidate who cannot close the deal.
In fact what we are seeing is that she peaked in the polls from the very start and the polls showed that from out of the gate she had very high negatives and even within the Democratic party she could not muster a majority of votes.
Hence this race is going on and on. She simply can't close the deal as a significant part of the party base do not want her as the nominee.
That is why we are going to have a floor fight at the convention. We are watching a sea change in the party being played out in the primaries. It is the old vs. the new and a changing of the guard.
Bill and Hill can't close the deal because Dems are ready to turn the page.
The superdelegates are as well and they need to line up behind Barack, tomorrow morning and change the focus of this story as to her not being able to win the delegates needed for the nomination.
America wants change and they do not mean a change of genitals in the pantswearer in the WH.
March 4, 2008 9:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
Centered versus Decentered Power
Have to give David Brooks credit for an insightful analysis of the implicit world-view difference between voter preference for Clinton or Obama.
Key passage:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/04/opinion/04brooks.html
March 4, 2008 9:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
She should stay in until the end. Obama is just now getting examined and he has stumbled horribly so far. Rezko is a huge thorn in his side. He has lied about it, and sidestepped many questions in that regard. Dems would be foolish to put this person who has yet to be vetted up against Mccain. By the way, more Hillary supporters will vote for Mccain if Obama is the nominee, than Obama supporters. I as a Hillary supporter want experience and know how in the white house. Mccain is a moderate consevative and I am more of a moderate democrat. Obama is too liberal and inexperienced.
March 4, 2008 10:01 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hillary's experience? You mean as a career politician? Well, I guess if you think that's good thing.
March 4, 2008 10:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
Brad08, I believe it is flawed reasoning to suggest that it is the lack of examination of Obama that drives Clinton's inability to close the deal with the voters. I reject that premise. Rather, she can't close the deal because voters are not buying what she is selling. She has the so called 'lifetime of experience' and 'scars to fight the GOP' so why can't she wrest a majority of voters to her side with those supposed strengths? Obama does not take away her strengths as a candidate.
I submit that it is that for all her perceived strenghts she is not what the voters want when it comes to leadership in the WH and when they see Bill they are reminded of why they do not want the Billary team back in the WH. Which means that the biggest strength she has is a double edged sword as much as folks are voting for Bill when they vote for her, when they recall what it was actually like with the two of them in the 90s they recoil. They rethink and they say, no.
Obama's strengths outweigh Hillarys and more important his downside does not outweigh hers.
Hillary is her own problem. She will have the same issue in the general election. Only thing is that the independents and GOP will not even waffle about whether her co-Presidency should have a re-do. They will vote with a resounding and emphatic NO.
What appears to be occuring now is that Hillary is out to lose the general election for the Democratic party. Her statements about her 'lifetime of experience' and McCain's 'lifetime of experience' being more than a speech...was a complete repudiation of the brightest political star in the Democratic party..she definitely clipped his wings with that venom. The GOP is not only going to agree with that pretext, but she also handed herself up on a 'redphone' platter to them as well with her that redphone ad as the GOP, and independents and a lot of Reagan Democrats are going to decide they want McCain to answer the phone.
Hillary is handing the election to 'her friend' McCain.
Clear and simple.
She is in "it to win it" for McCain at this juncture.
March 4, 2008 10:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
ok, there, well if you can document a single lie from Obama about this matter every news organization in the country would be beating down your door. all the continued presence of the Rezko story means is that Hillary is actually far less hated by the press than she herself will tell you - all she has to do is mention any old bogus bullshit story and it gets full coverage. TPM is definitely guilty here as well by having that straight out of the WPost-mentality "Questions Linger" headline up half the day yesterday. No, questions don't "linger", only if you have no idea what you're talking about! The Chicago Tribune (who endorsed Obama) investigated the matter up and down, interviewed Obama, found no connection to any wrongdoing, and simply said he should have magically known the guy was a crook sooner. That's it. No "lies", no funny business, just the Clinton camp sitting there fanning the flames just off camera because this many months into the process, they've still found nothing. Really, they've not nothing. But of course Hillary is happy to keep the press hounding after bullshit non-stories, because she resents the fact that the media treated her and Bill that way and now she will do whatever she can to make sure Obama is treated equally badly. At this point, that's what she cares about. She knows full well she has no chance to win, all she can do is damage Obama. And set herself up to run in 2012.
March 4, 2008 11:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hillary Clinton now has the backing of Rush Limbaugh.
In return, Hillary is now throwing her support behind John McCain.
Hillery throws her support behind John McCain over Senator Obama, and then goes on to give a great example of how she put her experience to the test at a crucial time.
Watch it for yourselves. Hillary is still a Goldwater Girl at Heart. She loves those Republican Senators from Arizona.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ou4JnWQsxKw&eurl=http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0308/Clinton_on_Obama_and_McCain.html
March 4, 2008 10:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
"Hillary is still a Goldwater Girl at Heart."
Would that she were anything so wholesome. I'm afraid she is actually a Rove Girl at Heart.
March 4, 2008 10:15 AM | Reply | Permalink
I submit she is actually a GoldRove girl...a hybrid and thus worst, as the combination is synergistic..i.e. far more reptilian and venomous than the sum of parts.
March 4, 2008 10:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
Can someone help me understand this line that Ms Clinton win of the "big states" means that she has to be the nominee because the Democrats have to carry those states in Nov. Does anyone really believe that the people of those states would vote for McCain over Obama? Well maybe they will not that Ms Clinton has endorsed McCain and dimssed Obama's life experience as being totally irrelevant.
March 4, 2008 10:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
jonwash, i don't think anyone is talking about CA, NY, or MA... the "big states" that are a major concern or the ones that are swing states, primarily FL, OH, MI, PA. there may be some new ones this yr like VA, MO, NV, NM, IA (though not as big as the above.) there was even an op-ed in today's NYT by the executive editor of "Texas Monthly" magazine who suggested that TX could possibly swing to the dems (seems like a longshot to me) this Nov.
it does matter who wins the "big swing states"...
March 4, 2008 10:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
probably not, because it's an incomprehensible meme drummed up by the press, who certainly want Clinton to stay in so they can keep covering her meltdown in slow motion. people like Joe Scarborough want to convince Dems that because Obama didn't win the 'big states' in the primary, that he'll be unable to carry them in the general election. of course the very suggestion is ridiculous, but most people don't know enough to know that. the entire argument really favors Obama, who is much more likely to pick up extra states like Virginia, Missouri, Colorado, New Mexico, etc. Obama in the general could lose FL and OH, win VA and CO, and win. Hillary will have to win the Kerry states, with OH or FL added in. It's a toss-up. But against McCain, it is very doubtful that conservative leaning states will go her way.
March 4, 2008 12:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
hillary could win the Kerry states and any of the following: FL, OH, AR, NM, NV (she has a stronger argument than obama in these 5 states)...
also, obama would have to argue that he can hold onto PA and MI and not lose the "reagan democrats" in those states.
i'm not saying he can't, but your scenarios are no more likely to bring victory in Nov than hillary's...
March 4, 2008 1:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
I've thought Hillary should drop out since the day I learned she was in it. Of course, they never asked me...
March 4, 2008 10:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
She should make her own decision. The problem is going to be money. If there is no way that she wins, she will stop getting money. Also, is it right for her to keep taking money and spending it if she can't possibly win? I don't think that's right.
On another note, if she wasn't lying and trashing the prospective dem nominee, then I would definitely be all for her staying in. It lends excitement and interest to the race. However, the way she is campaigning to trash obama can only hurt dems in the general election. Also, the lies and distortions that she and her campaign constantly spew are not beneficial for anyone, including herself. Furthermore, her campaign's tactic of dissing 3/4's of the states claiming they don't count, really doesn't help the dem cause in general. I really can't stand her train wreck of a campaign.
Finally, people in the media and supers should stop saying publically that she should drop out. It's her choice ultimately and its not right for these people to do what they are doing in the press. Privately, the supers should be putting pressure on her to drop out. Publically, they should just shut up.
March 4, 2008 10:14 AM | Reply | Permalink
well, Michael A, i agree with at least part of what you say. all this public talk of her needing to drop out is bad (for Obama)... her supporters don't like it and unless she loses OH and/or TX today, then they should just stop.
as for your first point, however, she is still in the race until Obama captures 2025 delegates. she has every right to go on, to accept money from her supporters, etc.
too many people keep talking about pledged delegates. this process was not ever based on just pledged delegates... there are all kinds of problems with the process: delegate allocation, superdelegates, caucuses, states that allow republicans to pick/vote for the democratic nominee, the voting order of the states, all kinds of interference (think FL, MI) from the rules committee (or whoever they are), etc... it's completely f-ed up!
but for now, there is a process... that process counts superdelegates and pledged delegates... it is going to be decided within the confines of the current process (and if that process finds a way to count or re-count or re-vote FL and MI, then so be it)...
all the whining about Hillary continuing to fight for the nomination is just beyond ridiculous (i'm not referring to you, Michael A, since you recognize her right to go on.)
March 4, 2008 10:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
See we can agree on some things.
March 4, 2008 10:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
You make many good points and seem completely rational (and at this point in the primary season, that should be taken as a high complement indeed).
So, I'm curious about your opinion on the following scenario. Suppose Clinton wins both the Texas and Ohio popular vote today by a relatively small margin (3-7% or so), but comes out behind in delegates on the day due to the Texas caucus and/or the way delegates from the Texas primary are allocated. In other words, she "wins" the day, but the pledged delegate picture looks even worse for her.
Further suppose that, sometime in the next couple of weeks, a large block of super-delegates comes out and backs Obama, effectively seeking to clinch the nomination for him. It has the desired effect, and Clinton reluctantly concedes.
The question is, would you be angry and bitter at the way it played out if this happened? Do you think other Clinton supporters would be? Or do you think people would accept it, move on, and the wounds would start to heal?
March 4, 2008 11:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
well, it is hard to say exactly, but something massive (other than "politics as usual") would have to happen for me NOT to vote for the democratic nominee for president if for no other reason than to make sure that we don't get another alito, scalia, or thomas on the supreme court (though hopefully a dem majority in the senate would prevent that in the case that mccain did win in november)...
i don't know about other hillary supporters, but i will say that obama supporters should stop calling for her to drop out while she is still viable. trying to end the game before the final buzzer just because your team is ahead is a good way to anger a lot of people, especially women who feel really committed to hillary's candidacy. if they feel that hillary has been "pushed out", then i think a lot of them could become disaffected.
March 4, 2008 12:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Many Hillary supporters will not vote for Obama. Experience is the key. Obama has two years experience in the US senate and that is it. There is a poll out that says 25% of Hillary supporters will vote for Mccain while 10% of Obama supporters will support Mccain. Also, Obama will not win Georgia, SC, ND, UT, AK, Al, etc. Those red states will vote for Mccain. If the democratic nominee, can't win democratic strongholds Like NY, NJ, and CA, how can he win red states that always vote republican? He is not even winning the base of his own party. Mccain has huge crossover appeal. A lot of independents and moderate dems will vote for Mccain.
March 4, 2008 10:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
Notwithstanding numerous problems with your analysis, you are assuming that NY, CA and NJ will not go dem. They haven't gone republican since the b-movie actor. They went dem with the clintons the first two times, Gore and Kerry. The elections weren't even close in those states. There is no way that they would go republican regardless if its the clintons or obama. This is such a silly argument.
The problem is that the clintons won't win any swing states with mccain as the republican nominee. Mccain beats her with indies 2 to 1 and she will get no cross-over votes from republicans. So, we lose again. Why is this so hard of a concept for clinton supporters to grasp? I really don't understand it.
March 4, 2008 10:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
oops, there you go again!
you have no basis to argue that Hillary can't win the big swing states of FL, OH, MI, PA... the current polls taken in february are in no way indicative of November!
as i said yesterday, Hillary could also pick off AR, NM, NV, and maybe a couple others... Obama has shown strength in states like VA and CO... either Obama or Hillary could swing MO to the dems...
your anti-Hillary bias is showing in your analysis that she can't win any of the above states in the GE. i'm sure that my pro-Hillary bias may make me overly optimistic, but the fact remains that polls in Feb are useless for predicting the results in Nov.
March 4, 2008 10:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
I agree that the polls this early are meaningless for the general.
But you have to admit that Hillary is the most politically divisive candidate remaining.
To win swing states you need to draw independents, and that’s exactly what Obama and McCain can do and Hillary can not.
March 4, 2008 10:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
i don't admit that... see my post above in reply to your comment that she has "zero cross-over appeal."
March 4, 2008 10:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
gah! We're getting all criss-crossed here.
March 4, 2008 10:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
I agree on the polls in february in general being pretty meaningless. There is one point on the polls that is an interesting observation. Clinton's support has maxed out nearly a year ago in the dem primary. All the polling showed her support decrease and obama's increase. I would suspect that that is the same concerning the general election match-up polls.
On of the reasons why I suspect her support is maxed out is that there are some polls that are completely consistent and have been for a long, long time. Nearly 80% of republicans will never vote for her under any circumstances and that number is nearly 60% for independents. The point is that they will never vote for her, under any circumstances. Also, the republicans will become rabid and tremendously energized in a general election against clinton.
I don't understand why these concepts are so hard to grasp. Based on these consistent polls and her super high negatives, why would you think that she would win any purple states? I just don't see it.
March 4, 2008 10:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hence the reason why many people will vote for Obama (who also has huge crossover appeal) vs. McCain and not for Clinton vs. McCain. I'm not sure you've thought your argument all the way through.
March 4, 2008 10:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
"A lot of independents and moderate dems will vote for Mccain."
Which is also completely true for Obama. Out of the 3 remaining candidates, ONLY Hillary has zero cross-over appeal. Doesn't that tell you anything about her chances in the general?
March 4, 2008 10:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
i've seen data (albeit from 2007) that shows Hillary has appeal with some women (maybe as much as 10 pct) and latinos who voted republican in 2004.
that's a little better than what you suggest is "zero cross-over appeal"...
March 4, 2008 10:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
Okay, allow me to rephrase.
You'll have to agree that out of the 3 remaining candidates, Hillary has the least amount of cross-over appeal.
To say nothing of the fact that there is a reason why conservative nuts like Rush and Coulter are telling Republicans to vote for her. They want to face her in the general. The only thing that will overcome the Republican base's antipathy for McCain is their hatred for the Clintons.
March 4, 2008 10:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
well, i'm not going to say this to frustrate you, but i do believe that hillary's appeal in the GE is and has always been underestimated.
but most importantly, i am supporting Hillary because i think that she would be the best president. i won't go into all of my reasoning (as i have so many times in the past on these TPM comment sections)...
i'm not basing my vote on electability when no one can honestly say who is the most electable this far ahead of the GE.
John Kerry was supposedly the most electable in the opinion of dem voters 4 yrs ago...
March 4, 2008 11:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
That's fair. And I obviously have all my reasons for supporting Obama. But his ability to appeal to independents and an increasing number of Republicans is right there among them.
March 4, 2008 11:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
Now this is an excellent point:
John Kerry was supposedly the most electable in the opinion of dem voters 4 yrs ago
Good argument. He ran a totally crappy campaign. However, that point kinda sounds like someone else we know.
March 4, 2008 11:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, I don't think Kerry being the best of a crappy field has much bearing on Obama's "most eletable" moniker.
Remember, Kerry did get the 2nd most votes of any candidate in history.
March 4, 2008 11:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
neither you or Michael A like the Kerry was the "most electable" argument... that's fine, but that was his mantra coming out of IA and dems bought into it (some enthusiastically, some reluctantly)...
i'm just saying that it is nearly impossible to predict electability... i'm sure that dem voters all thought that dukakis, mondale, gore, kerry, etc were electable when they nominated them.
the media just LOVES the "electability" thing... they pound it over and over... but i'm just not going there. NO ONE KNOWS and no one can predict. period. anything can happen in politics and most predictions are worth that famous "bucket of warm spit."
March 4, 2008 12:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
What? I agreed with you kensdad. I said it was an excellent point on Kerry.
March 4, 2008 2:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
oops, sorry... i misread that. you have my sincere apology!
March 4, 2008 3:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
based on very different criteria, though. Kerry was just there because the higher ups in the party needed someone to get behind besides the 'scary' Howard Dean, who had the momentum at the outset. they settled on Kerry, trashed Dean, and we were stuck with a candidate crippled by his support for Iraq. some apparently want to go down this exact same road again, run another candidate who voted for the war and say "please vote for us, we're the weaker pretend version of what you guys are all about!" and once again, it will fail as a strategy. clearly, McCain wins Hillary's 'experience' argument, as well as her 'red phone in the Oval Office' argument. he wins the war argument - they both supported it, but he wants to 'win', whereas she wants to 'surrender'. same problem for Hillary, the whole electorate will be asking "why do you want to leave this war right now when you voted for it back then 'with conviction'?"
March 4, 2008 11:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
Fair enough, but then how do you feel about Nader? If it's not (at least partly) about electability, then why would anyone care if Nader runs? (Granted, if you have no problem with Nader winning, then you're being quite logically consisten—something I almost expect from you. I say "almost" only because very few of us, if any, are completely logically consistent.)
March 4, 2008 11:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
i don't care if Nader runs... in 2004, he got 0.34 pct of the vote. i understand that in a very tight race that it could affect the outcome in a particular state and throw the whole thing like FL did in 2000... but that's life... George H.W. Bush still blames Ross Perot for his loss in '92.
in fact, there have been times when i truly wished that there were a viable 3rd party choice (and i don't mean a joe lieberman type.)
March 4, 2008 11:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
kensdad -
As a seemingly rationale, if admittedly biased, Hillary supporter, I’m very interested in your response to her tax return issue.
I personally think it’s inexcusable and showcases the exact time of secrecy with which we’ve been dealing the last 7 years.
And I’m not trying to play gotcha with you. I’m genuinely interested in a Hillary supporter’s perspective on this issue.
March 4, 2008 11:10 AM | Reply | Permalink
she has said that she will release her tax returns. i just don't see the big deal... are the clintons rich? yes. have they made a lot of money over the last couple years? yes. did they cash in on bill's 8 yrs in the WH? yes. have they done anything illegal? i seriously, seriously doubt it, especially something that will come to light in their tax returns.
let's take it down a couple more roads, since i think the 2 main questions are has bill (or hillary) made quid pro quo deals that where hillary would "owe" favors if she becomes prez? and where did she get the $5 million that she loaned to her campaign?
first, i don't believe that Hillary (or Bill) has put money in her own pockets in exchange for promises once she becomes president. if anyone can prove otherwise, then show me, but i don't think that it will be found in her tax return. second, she made humgo moola off her book, "Living History", so she's got plenty of money to loan her campaign which is completely allowable.
if you want tax returns for all candidates, then change the rules and make them submit by a certain date. if you want to get money out of politics, then change the rules in favor of public funding only or disallow candidates to self-finance their campaigns (though i doubt any of these things will ever work.)
i see the tax return issue as a distraction.
March 4, 2008 12:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
I know she has said she will release them if she is the nominee, but why not now? One of her main arguments is that she is vetted while Obama is not. This directly refutes that. What possible excuse is there not to have already done it?
And "seriously, seriously doubting" something is not the same as knowing for sure, which is the crux of this whole issue. Let’s say for a minute that she becomes the nominee and releases her returns and some very questionable financial connections are revealed (which is not beyond the realm of possibility what with Bill’s alleged Kazakhstan situation). Won’t you as a Hillary supporter feel duped?
We have a right to know where their money is coming from, especially after she loaned herself the $5 million. It's a basic sense of transparency that she is simply refusing to abide by. And I take her excuse that she’s too busy to do it as an insult to our intelligence.
March 4, 2008 12:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
i agree that she should disclose her tax returns. no argument there from me...
but let's not forget that bill and hillary clinton are the most investigated first couple ever! they have remained in the spotlight since leaving the WH. hillary is a U.S. senator with all the disclosure requirements and scrutiny that comes with it. the NY media is not generally considered "soft" and i'm sure that they have kept a pretty close eye on the clintons.
assuming that the clintons knew for quite some time that hillary would be running for prez, i just don't see them doing anything illegal.
i agree, my feelings do not equal certainty. i just can't believe that hillary would go into a GE with some time bomb ticking in her tax returns, especially after 8 yrs in the WH where she was attacked and investigated nonstop.
so, i am taking a leap of faith... as are obama voters who are satisfied that obama has disclosed everything regarding Rezko. the chicago media has been saying that he won't sit down with them and answer their questions.
i have not attacked obama once on Rezko and it won't stop me from voting for him if he's the nominee, but i just think that we can get overly bogged down in stuff like this.
if you really want to answer my most serious concern, then look at my 11:31 post in reply to "text".... it goes something like this:
obama keeps promising to work with republicans to implement his agenda. how is that going to lead to progressive legislation? can you imagine republican leadership working with obama without some serious concessions that undermine the type of change (in legislation, not tone) that dems want so badly?
should the dems win the WH in november while expanding their margins in the house and senate, why should they negotiate with republicans at all? the republicans have made such a mess of things that it will take a generation just to reverse the damage that was inflicted by 8 yrs of GWB.
March 4, 2008 12:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
It comes down to a basic difference in philosophy? Fighters vs. uniter. Why should the Dems negotiate with Republicans? Because they're elected officials too and compromise is the backbone of this country.
I agree that the Republicans have done serious damage the last 7 years and might not "deserve" to have a voice, but I've always thought the Dems better than that. I don't want a President who will sink to Bush's level and treat the opposition party with resentment and scorn. I don't want 4 more years of partisan hostilities. I want one who will work with both sides and, yes, unite the country. And Obama has a track record of bringing republicans over (look at what he accomplished with the interrogation reform in IL).
March 4, 2008 1:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Or, in other words, what Andrew Sullivan said:
David Brooks describes the stakes in this election as between old and new politics. I take his point, but I do want to insist that this new politics of which we Obama-fans are talking is not some kind of millennialist, utopian fantasy. I don't think Obama has - or anyone ever will - abolish the human nature of political life: its combat, its competing interests, its partisanship, its necessary compromises. If I thought one man could do that, I should be given a Valium and told to take some time off.
No: the reason to back Obama is because this country is in a terrible hole. The economy is headed into the shitter, the dollar is plunging, soaring government debt and individual fiscal recklessness (now rewarded by the Fed's rate-cutting) have created the chance of a serious recession, the US is mired in a permanent occupation of a deeply divided failed state in the Muslim Arab world, and key American values - that we do not torture, that we rescue our allies - have been abandoned by a callow, incompetent president.
In the midst of this, we have a domestic politics that has become poisonously polarized by the cumulative impact of two decades of Dick Morris, Karl Rove-style politics and have lurched from one president whose every sentence was a carefully parsed legalism to one often in total denial about the reality he grapples with. We desperately need not some kind of new politics, but a return to reasoned politics, to leaders who, even when they disagree, can rationally explain how and why. Americans know we have deeply serious problems and are tired of deeply unserious posturing. Republicans have grasped this. That's why they actually rejected the most polarizing (Giuliani) and cynical (Romney) and facile (Huckabee) candidates, in favor of a serious man, who is at least open to opposing arguments and engaged in more than partisan hucksterism and nasty minority-baiting.
The Democrats, so far, have as well. Obama is simply more capable, more trustworthy, more reasonable and less partisan than Clinton. That's all. He is not a messiah, for Pete's sake, and I'm tired of being told that those of us who support him are somehow irrational or emotional. Above all, he will not breathe new life into the very pathologies with which we have all been consumed for too long. She will. Some of this is her fault; some of it isn't. I see my own attempt to move forward constructively impeded by the emotions she and her husband have the power to evoke. But her partisanship and divisiveness are not in my mind alone. She knows what she's doing - and, in my view, we cannot afford her any more.
If that is a new politics, fine. But only if "new" means an older, calmer discourse for newer, more perilous times. That's what Obama represents. And we have to keep focused on that, unless the easy and familar habits of easy, tired politics prevents us from seizing a moment that history doesn't offer very often.
March 4, 2008 1:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
hyperRevue, you argue your case very eloquently, and i certainly agree with large parts of what you say!
however, you are certainly more optimistic (and idealistic) than i am... believe me it saddens me to say that!
you mention that the republicans (i believe that you are referring to the voters not their elected representatives) have come around a bit... i truly question whether that is true and whether it will be reflected in washington even if you are right...
for example, let's look at the 2006 midterms. that was a clear demand for change. a change in tone, a change direction in iraq, and a change away from the policies of GWB... predictably, GWB not only resisted that call, but he completely ignored it and escalated the war in iraq with his "surge" (don't let me get started on that)... but my point goes to the republicans in the house and particularly the senate. despite getting swept and being widely renounced, they have banded together even more tightly to thwart anything that the dems in congress might have tried to meet the public's call for change.
sooooo.... why should i or anyone be optimistic that those same republicans will embrace a president obama?
sorry, to be so negative, but 8 yrs of GWB and a 14 yrs of a republican congress has made a pessimist out of me!
March 4, 2008 1:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Just for the record, if you're referring to the eloquence of my 2nd post, the whole thing was a quote from Andrew Sullivan. Only the first paragraph italicized for some reason. I don't want to be accused of plagiarism :)
And, yes, I agree I’m optimistic and possibly naively so. And maybe it’s a generational thing. I’m still very young and even younger politically – only 25. I came of age during the Clinton years but my real formative years were Bush’s. I don’t remember the reverse partisanship (for lack of a better term) of Bill’s years as well as I remember the utter contempt with which Bush and the majority of republicans treated Dems. And while I agree it’d feel good to unleash Hillary and just say “fuck you” to the republicans for the next 4 years I don’t think that’d do the country any good.
So, maybe you think we need a fighter because you know those years better and know what a Democrat President will face. And maybe I think we need a uniter because I’m more familiar with the partisanship of Bush and don’t want to see a Democratic President resort to that.
for example, let's look at the 2006 midterms. that was a clear demand for change. a change in tone, a change direction in iraq, and a change away from the policies of GWB... predictably, GWB not only resisted that call, but he completely ignored it and escalated the war in iraq with his "surge" (don't let me get started on that)... but my point goes to the republicans in the house and particularly the senate. despite getting swept and being widely renounced, they have banded together even more tightly to thwart anything that the dems in congress might have tried to meet the public's call for change.
sooooo.... why should i or anyone be optimistic that those same republicans will embrace a president obama?
sorry, to be so negative, but 8 yrs of GWB and a 14 yrs of a republican congress has made a pessimist out of me!
Just for the record, if you're referring to the eloquence of my 2nd post, the whole thing was a quote from Andrew Sullivan. Only the first paragraph italicized for some reason. I don't want to be accused of plaigarism :)
March 4, 2008 1:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wow. What the hell happened to my post?
Just read the first 3 paragraphs. Ignore ther rest.
March 4, 2008 1:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
ok, you're younger than i thought! i'm 20 yrs older than you, so that may partially explain some of our differences...
i don't begrudge you your idealism. if i were 25 i would likely be supporting obama, too!
neither candidate is as bad as his/her opponents would have you believe, and neither is as good as his/her supporters insist!
i just hope that we win the WH in november.
March 4, 2008 1:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree completely with your last 2 points.
March 4, 2008 2:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thank goodness this exchange stopped when it did. If you had kept it up your posts would be appearing in columns only one word wide.
March 4, 2008 6:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
1 word columns!
Yes we can!
March 4, 2008 6:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes we can!
March 4, 2008 6:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
What to make of Brokaw saying a top Obama official told him 50 supers are ready to endorse him? How does this play in the media? Does it, along with huge fundraising numbers shift the narrative back in his direction? I hope that in addition to going after Hillary on her weaknesses (be like Rove and attack her on national security), the Obama campaign comes out with full, solid explanations for Rezko. He needs a Billary 60 Minutes type moment, where he admits he screwed up and asks for forgiveness. He needs to find a way to get beyond this or it will fuel Clinton charges he won't last in the general.
March 4, 2008 10:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yep. That's just one of the reasons I am no longer a rank & file dem - haven't given money to the party since 2003, only individual progressive candidates. Heck, Joe Lieberman is a dem. And if Hillary Clinton is the nominee it will be the first Presidential election I haven't voted for any candidate since Dukakis in 1988. I'll probably write-in Al Gore.
March 4, 2008 10:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
If it comes down to it (it probably won't), and you're unwilling to vote for Clinton or McCain, find the third, fourth, or fifth party candidate that comes closest to representing your ideals. I think that's better than an arbitrary write-in (although you may have to write them in as well, depending on where you live). I.e., vote for someone that's actually running.
Or, ask yourself: who would Al Gore vote for? WWAGVF?
March 4, 2008 10:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
Until this weekend, I would have held my nose and voted for Hillary.
Not anymore. She's crossed my line one too many times. I can't stand what she's doing, I can't stand her duplicitous, back-stabbing, shrill personality, and frankly, I don't care to reward the kind of negative campaigning she's doing and the fuel she's giving the GOP for the GE.
I will vote McCain if Hillary gets the nod. He's become my lesser of two evils, but more importantly, I'd vote for him only to punish her.
I've never been a Democrat - I'm one of those swing voters the parties have to fight for. I registered Dem this year to vote for Obama in my primary. In the last election, I voted for Kerry. In this election, I'll go the other way.
March 4, 2008 11:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
If experience is the key, then why would Hillary supporters not support McCain in the general, even if Hillary gets the nomination? His experience vastly outweighs her 8 years as First Lady and 6 in the US Senate.
March 4, 2008 10:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
Dammit. Supposed to be a reply to Bret08.
Could John maybe stop sucking Hillary's teet for a minute and fix his Web site?
March 4, 2008 10:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
And the ugly specter of sexism comes out once again! ;)
March 4, 2008 10:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
Tell me I'm wrong! ;)
March 4, 2008 10:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
OK, you asked for it: the word I think you're looking for is teat, not teet. :)
March 4, 2008 10:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
Dammit!
I hate not having spell check on my work computer.
March 4, 2008 11:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
Do Democrats get off on losing or what? For the first time in ages we are actually in a position to win and win big, and we still have half of our party being complete morons by supporting the biggest threat to our party: Hillary Clinton. And this isn't even a secret, Rush Limbaugh is telling conservatives in Texas to go vote for Hillary to keep her in the race so she can keep stabbing us all in the back! WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!
http://thepersonalispolitical.tumblr.com/post/27938741
March 4, 2008 10:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
Al Giordano is doing a heck of a job covering this nailbiter. Funny and informative:
http://ruralvotes.com/thefield/
Here's a quote he links to from The Austin AS:
Clinton spent Monday night in Austin, where a star-studded town hall-style meeting — paid for by her campaign and televised live on the Fox Sports Southwest cable channel — was followed by a rally before a less-than-capacity crowd in the Burger Center gym.
With actress Eva Longoria acting as town hall emcee and stars such as Ted Danson and Melanie Griffith introducing questions from the audience of about 700, Clinton pronounced herself ready for the nation's verdict on her yearlong "job interview." She also identified with Texas icons, to approving applause.
He also links to this, from boston.com:
The Obamas held their customary late-night election eve rally at a Houston convention center, firing up 6,000 people to vote and to get their friends, relatives, neighbors, colleagues, dog-walkers, dentists -- whoever -- to come with them.
Oh ye of little faith. Yes we can.
March 4, 2008 10:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
Morning, everybody! Here's Al Giordano's predictions for Texas (and, I know I sound like a broken record, but he's been pretty spot-on throughout this primary season):
http://ruralvotes.com/thefield/?p=822
So, according to him, Rhode Island and Vermont will be a wash as far as delegates, Clinton will carry Ohio (barely) and gain +5 delegates, and Obama will win Texas handily, giving him +27 delegates. This will give him a net +20 delegates to add to his already substantial 150+ delegate lead. Al believes that the 3AM phone call ad backfired big time in Texas and that, along with Limbaugh's shenanigans, will pull more voters into Obama's camp. If this comes to bear (and I'm betting on Al's continuing his hot streak), then Mark Penn can spin all he wants but Hillary will be down by 170+ delegates and the supers will start making noises. Let's keep our fingers crossed and have faith in the wisdom of Ohio and Texas voters!
March 4, 2008 10:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
McCain is a moderate consevative? Look at his voting record and read his interview yesterday with the WSJ and tell me that again.
McCain is an opportunist that poses as a maverick and would be another disaster. Although, if Hill is the nominee and he is elected in the end it may finally the nail in the coffin of the Rescumlican Party...
March 4, 2008 10:32 AM | Reply | Permalink
it doesn't matter though, because the entirety of the media loves John McCain, and they love the narrative they've come up with that he's a 'maverick', who 'bucks his party' and who has an 'independent record', and who has 'consistently criticized the war'. it does not matter at all if it doesn't hold up under scrutiny, the press will make sure that scrutiny doesn't occur.
March 4, 2008 12:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
The only reason Obama is getting bloodied and battered is because HIS OWN ACTIONS are surfacing.
Obama's own advisor told the Canadians not to worry about NAFTA. Your argument basically amounts to "the Canadians are screwing us by telling Americans about our secret meeting that we tried to deny." Obama's relationship with Rezko, and his "boneheaded" (his own word) house purchase deal are not something Hillary did to him. And Hillary didn't hold him down and keep him from having a single hearing while he was a subcommittee chairman.
This is not some scorched earth campaign by Hillary. It is just Obama's own record haunting him.
Obama has just over a 100 delegate lead. You can argue about pledged vs. super, uncommitted vs. other-candidate delegates, and it all degrades into silliness. They need just over 2000 delegates to clinch the nomination and neither one will get that from pledged delegates alone. The difference between them right now is just a small fraction of the total number of delegates.
You might argue that the superdelegates should look only at the popular vote. But most rational folks will say that Obamas lead came primarily from pushing heavy turnout in smaller, open primaries and caucuses, in most cases with only tens of thousands of voters. If he can't win in Texas or Ohio (with millions of voters), his only larger election victories are Illinois and neighboring Wisconsin. His gaming of the system by relying on caucuses, pulling off the ballot in Michigan (before the DNC had rendered a final decision there) in order to avoid a "loss" and to help him in the early states, and his reliance on "delegate math" as the argument for his viability will all be very off-putting.
If Hillary goes to the convention with solid momentum, wins in almost all of the big states and in many regions of the country, continued broad support, continued clear advantage in key states over McCain (yes, Obama has the advantage in a few of them, too), and with the growing idea that we know her skeletons and we are just learning about Obama's, then the party will not give him the nomination. Without even having shenanigans, the convention can seat Florida and Michigan (they could even enforce the rules on campaigning and penalize Obama for his press conference in Florida during the blackout), the undecideds and Edwards delegates can turn to Hillary, the superdelegates can (and will) follow the pack to the winner.
This is not a "all of these stars must align" situation. This is a "any of these things can turn the balance to her, and many of them are likely" situation.
That is not to say she has it clinched. She doesn't, and neither does he. There are millions of folks still to vote as I write this, not just today but for the next few months. There is a process here, and there is no reason to stop it just because Obama supporters are afraid their shiny new candidate will get scratched.
Hillary supporters generally think that this contest has been good for her and has helped temper her campaign. The same is probably true of Obama's campaign, though his supporters seem genuinely afraid of seeing him face any opposition. If you think the stuff that Obama ginned up cries of racism over were bad, wait until you see the real racist stuff that the republicans do. If you think just hearing about Rezko is bad, wait until the republicans come along and tie him and Barack to everything back to the Chicago fire.
The point is, this ain't over. There is no miracle necessary for Hillary to take this. Nobody is saying that Hillary has it clinched by any measure, even if she wins big today. But pretending that Obama has it clinched is just fantasy.
March 4, 2008 10:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
Obama's current delegate lead is 157, not "just over 100".
March 4, 2008 12:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Actually, if you include super delegates, it's about 110. If not, it's about 150-160, depending on where you look.
March 4, 2008 12:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
"On another note, if she wasn't lying and trashing the prospective dem nominee, then I would definitely be all for her staying in. It lends excitement and interest to the race. However, the way she is campaigning to trash obama can only hurt dems in the general election. Also, the lies and distortions that she and her campaign constantly spew are not beneficial for anyone, including herself. Furthermore, her campaign's tactic of dissing 3/4's of the states claiming they don't count, really doesn't help the dem cause in general. I really can't stand her train wreck of a campaign."
I agree. It's the tone in her campaign, the nastiness, which is the big problem here. Huckabee is a nuisance for McCain but he is not trashing him daily.
"The point is, this ain't over. There is no miracle necessary for Hillary to take this. Nobody is saying that Hillary has it clinched by any measure, even if she wins big today. But pretending that Obama has it clinched is just fantasy."
Do the math! It's the delegates, stupid!
http://www.slate.com/features/delegatecounter/
She can't win, especially if OH and TX are close.
March 4, 2008 10:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
You know, observer2, Hillary really has played the expectations game masterfully. Remember a couple of weeks back, when the general consensus was the same as the reality you point out in your post - that Hillary needed BIG WINS (15-20% or more) in Ohio and Texas to be back in this thing. Now the CW is that if she squeaks out two photo finish wins, she's regained the momentum and is set to take the nomination.
I know a lot of that CW is set by a media who really wants this thing to keep going. But the Clinton camp has milked it for all its worth.
March 4, 2008 11:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
""At the general-election level, half of Democrats and Democratic-leaning independents across the country would like to see Sen. Barack Obama (Ill.) as the party's presidential candidate; 43 percent would rather Hillary Clinton be the nominee.""
The reason this not chosen as the headline is because Greg wants to drag out Hillary's defeat longer.
March 4, 2008 10:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
Too bad for Hillary two-thirds of voters in primaries and caucuses didn't feel the same way.
March 4, 2008 10:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
Kensdad you said
"that are a major concern or the ones that are swing states, primarily FL, OH, MI, PA. there may be some new ones this yr like VA, MO, NV, NM, IA (though not as big as the above.)"
Is your point and the Clinton campaigns point is that the people in those states that supported Ms. Clinton would only support the Dems if she is the nominee? I just don't see that. The Dem turnout has been off the chart and so to think that Obama would not show well in those states that he loss to Ms Clinton just does not make any sense to me. I think either Dem will be strong in those swing states based on the desire to "turn the page" on the past 8 years. I just don't think the logic fits that just because one candidate wins the Dem primary in a particular state that the eventual nominee is handicapped in winning that state in the general election.
March 4, 2008 10:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
i'm not saying that obama can't win those states... but they are swing states for a reason!
what i am saying is that the democratic primary elections in those states are indicators of which dem would do better down the line in those states in a tightly contested GE.
March 4, 2008 10:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
Why? I don't understand that one. Dems aren't the only ones voting in the general election.
March 4, 2008 11:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
think of it this way:
who would have the better chance of winning VA in a GE against john mccain?
obama who won the primary or hillary who lost the primary?
i'm sure that you will say obama, right? he showed more strength among dems in the primary, so isn't it logical to assume that he'd be the stronger candidate in VA than Hillary in november?
i'm saying that it is also true in FL, OH, MI, PA...
it's not an air tight argument by any means... but there is a certain logic to it, no?
March 4, 2008 11:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
Ok, I see your point. I don't entirely agree, but I get it.
March 4, 2008 11:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
>>>The point is, this ain't over. There is no miracle necessary for Hillary to take this.>>>
No miracle, no, but at the very least she needs some freaky backchannel accounting tricks. Look, I don't say she has to pull out, even though it's pretty clear to me that the fearmongering stuff and muslim stuff is going to do permanent damage to the party's chances regardless the nominee. That's her business, I understand. And frankly, if she doesn't win the nomination now that she has gone this route, she'll be mud in the new governing party. So maybe she thinks from a personal power standpoint she has no choice.
So it's excusable in a certain sense, but as a voter you still have to look at the big picture. Any scenario that has her getting the nod relies on superdelegates, and on changing rules and seating uncontested states that get apportioned to her advantage. Do the math. She needs 60+% wins in almost every state AND those things, not one or the other. But these scenarios guarantee a damaged party that will limp into a general that it should have stormed into.
I think people simply have not done the math. She simply cannot reasonably catch up without these maneuvers. Keeping her alive now only increases the chances that these will be deployed. Fortunately, I think the supers will see that and end this thing early. But who knows.
March 4, 2008 10:51 AM | Reply | Permalink
Kensdad says
"you have no basis to argue that Hillary can't win the big swing states of FL, OH, MI, PA... the current polls taken in february are in no way indicative of November!"
I guess my question is where is the basis to say that Mr Obama could not do likewise?
March 4, 2008 10:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
he could win some combination (or even all) of those states. i never said he couldn't. it was Michael A who said that Hillary couldn't win any of them. that's what you are quoting me as saying if you consider the context.
March 4, 2008 11:01 AM | Reply | Permalink
Understand what you are saying. Just don't think there is enough either way to contend that one candidate will fare better than the other in the general just because they won that states Primary.
On another subject I am curious about you take on the comment from Ms Clinton that she has life experiences, McCain has life experiences and Obama has a speech. How does that not come back to haunt the Dem's if Obama is the nominee?
March 4, 2008 1:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
you may not like the rhetoric involved in presidential campaigns. both sides play this game! hillary is not saying anything that mccain and the republicans won't say in the GE. she is fighting for the nomination. she is trying to put obama on the defensive. i don't like seeing democrats attack democrats, but there is no such thing as a "high road" in presidential politics. obama is not some innocent out there...
as i said above:
i would say that obama's campaign has been brilliant, well-organized, well-funded, etc., but i wouldn't call it "respectful"... then again i support Hillary, so maybe i'm more sensitive to the attacks and distortions that Obama's campaign has launched against Hillary.
BUT, that is just the way that the game is played. if he didn't fight back and launch his own attacks and distort her words and positions, then he wouldn't be winning. period.
March 4, 2008 2:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
Let's suppose that Hillary ekes out a win in TX, and wins by double digits in OH.
How could this be taken as anything other than a firm rejection by many in the Democratic base of Obama as a candidate?
Look, Obama has had the momentum. He's had the overwhelming advantage in money. But in the major swing state of OH, he's nonetheless roundly rejected as being unacceptable? Given that most Democrats would gladly rally around the perceived winner if he was otherwise considered adequate in their minds, what does such a rejection really imply about his candidacy?
And what if, as would seem likely after such a win, he loses by double digits in the major swing state of PA? And does anyone seriously believe that he would not likewise be trounced in FL and MI if there were do-overs?
How would this present the picture of a viable candidate for the general election?
Even if Obama stumbles to the finish line with more pledged delegates, why should the superdelegates plunk down for a candidate who has built his lead on states that won't figure into the general election, and who has lost all his momentum?
We'll have to see, of course, what really happens today, which could easily render this hypothetical discussion moot, but if Hillary wins both TX and OH, it's not going to be good news for the viability of Obama as a candidate in the GE.
March 4, 2008 11:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
Easy. It could simply be taken as an indication that despite Obama's intense popularity amongst Democrats (and independents), he doesn't appeal to everyone. That he's not been taking 100% of the vote in the states that have already had primaries is already indicative of this.
Texas and Ohio are individual states. Last time I checked, one doesn't have to win all of the states to get the nomination, or do you think that the last 11 elections can be taken as "a firm rejection by many in the Democratic base of [Clinton] as a candidate"?
March 4, 2008 11:10 AM | Reply | Permalink
It comes back to the issue of the swing states.
Like it or not, when it comes to the general election, not all states are created equal. If, let's suppose, Obama loses -- and by double digits -- in the states of OH, PA, MI, and FL, how viable can he be in the general election?
Of course, beyond that, it's pretty likely that if he loses all those states by double digits, he will lose the overall popular vote in the primaries, even if he is still ahead in the pledged delegates.
So what is the argument for him winning the nomination? Why should super-delegates go his way under those circumstances?
March 4, 2008 11:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
It's not just the swing states, it's the swing voters, and among them, Obama has consistently performed better, according to the exit polls. This is the very reason that some Clinton supporters (hopefully a minority) don't want these independents to count.
March 4, 2008 11:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
Except that there's no reason to believe that the blue collar voters now voting for Clinton won't themselves become swing voters in the general election.
The phenomenon is well known: it was called "Reagan Democrats" once upon a time.
No reason in the world to believe that they won't become "McCain Democrats" for the same reasons as in the days of Reagan and well beyond.
March 4, 2008 12:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's a reasonable argument, but I've not seen any reason to suspect it will be the case. Polls suggest the reverse is more likely. Sure, polls could be wrong, but I see no reason to believe otherwise (other than some people's "gut").
March 4, 2008 1:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Those double digit losses in FL and MI were not straight up, toe-to-toe losses. I understand why the Clinton's want to include those states, but you cannot argue that those contests reflect popular sentiment like anything we will see out of OH or PA.
March 4, 2008 12:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
I make no pretense to any sort of special insight into the minds of superdelegates. That said, I can think of all sorts of reasons which might motivate any given superdelegate, to back Obama in the end.
1) Personal loyalty - I expect that some superdelegates will vote for one candidate or the other quite regardless of whether said candidate looks "stronger." Dick Durbin, for instance, is going for Obama even if he loses every contest from here on out by 80 point margins just as Bill Clinton is going to vote for Hillary Clinton even under the same circumstances.
2) Fundraising - I imagine that well more than a few supers will be looking at who has the stronger fundraising apparatus, because that counts for an awful lot.
3) Popular vote - I know that Frankly0 imagines that narrow victories in OH, TX and PA could still sway the popular vote contest to Clinton, but I think that he is somewhat off base in this supposition. I do not want to stake any money on it, but I expect that Obama will emerge with more popular votes in aggregate at the end than Clinton has. After all, a narrow win even in a large state does not shift the difference in their popular vote totals much, so in order to take the lead in the popular vote totals, she needs lopsided wins in big states. These do not appear very likely.
4) Pledged delegates - I imagine that at least some superdelegates are persuaded by the idea that the superdelegates should honor the will of the pledged delegates. I find this argument rather less than convincing myself, but I am sure that at least some superdelegates are scatter-brained enough to buy into it.
5) Head to head match-up polls - Goodness only knows what these will look like in August when the convention is being held, but if Obama is making a stronger showing against McCain in the polls then, then I am sure that this would sway some number of superdelegates.
March 4, 2008 4:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, indeed. Then he's finished. I'd expect him to concede after Pennsylvania. He's kept himself in a good position to campaign for her and to be a very major player in the Party. If she loses to McCain, even with his support, it's all his in 2012. He has run an exceptionally brilliant long-term campaign. Unlike Hillary, he doesn't have to win this one. So Obama supporters who believe McCain will beat Clinton have two ways to win. This year or 4 years from now.
March 4, 2008 11:15 AM | Reply | Permalink
Let's dispel a long held rumor that a Democratic candidate's ability to win states in the primary is is indicative of their ability to win those states in the GE. This applies to both Clinton & Obama. All of the major states Senator Clinton has won (New York, New Jersey, California, Nevada, etc) have either standard or closed primary/caucus systems. ie, independents and unaffiliated voters can't participate. The outcome of from these states indicates the rank and file democratic party members' preferred candidate. Senator Clinton has done marginally well in these states. Where she loses the edge is among those independent, unaffiliated and republican voters. When a caucus or primary is opened up, Senator Obama shines. In open caucuses he averages a 67.7% vote and in open primaries he averages a 55% vote. Hell, he averages a 56% vote in standard primaries. Texas and Ohio are "semi-open" primary states. Any registered voter is free to vote for any candidate from both parties but must declare which party they intend to vote for and can only vote in one primary. Texas, of course, has the separate caucus which Senator Clinton must be dreading as he's won those with an average vote of 60%. For one reason or another, independents, unaffiliated voters and republicans are supporting Senator Obama in large numbers at open contests. These voters that weren't given the opportunity to vote for him in the primaries will have that opportunity in the General Election. Hillary Clinton has won a few close contests in closed primary states -- not a huge electability booster. Check the facts.
March 4, 2008 12:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Or just the opposite: where independents and Republicans can vote in Democratic primaries or caucuses, and haven't needed to vote in their own primaries, they are distorting what will happen in the general election, where they will vote for the Republican. Thus Senator Obama's wins in primaries in Red states tell us very little about whether he could/would win these states against McCain in the general election.
March 4, 2008 3:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
God, I can barely hear myself think for all of the WHINING in here! He hasn't lost Texas or Ohio yet. And, even if he loses them, he can still win Pennsylvania. He just has to sell himself to the voters. For the record, I sure don't think she should stay in if she loses Texas. I don't think she should stay in unless she wins the popular vote in Texas, Ohio and Pennsylvania. If she does, though, I think she should stay in all the way.
March 4, 2008 11:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm sorry, but your "whining" shtick just doesn't have the cachet of idiotic's "THIS IS EXCELLENT NEWS" bit. (I tried it in your absence, and it just fell flat.) Keep trying, though. Maybe it'll catch on eventually.
March 4, 2008 11:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
Nobody likes a whiner, Ben.
March 4, 2008 3:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am impressed with Mrs Clinton's willingness to put her self out there on SNL (despite her unflattering rant during the last debate) and the Daily Show. However, I have been unimpressed with the latest Clinton campaign tack aligning themselves with a more Republican message. To me, this election is a referendum on the Republican message, and considering how much I have come to disrespect that message, I don't see how I could vote for a democrat who embraces it. If Mrs Clinton and Mr McCain are the nominees, I believe that it will be a less-than-inspirational campaign between two message-challenged camps. "Change? Who needs change?" I do. At this time, I feel that I would vote independent in a McCain-Clinton scenario. I do not support Mrs Clinton staying in the race after today's primaries.
March 4, 2008 11:10 AM | Reply | Permalink
well, text... i have many questions about obama on similar issues that go beyond any (perceived) campaign tactics.
obama keeps promising to work with republicans to implement his agenda. how is that going to lead to progressive legislation? can you imagine republican leadership working with obama without some serious concessions that undermine the type of change (in legislation, not tone) that dems want so badly?
should the dems win the WH in november while expanding their margins in the house and senate, why should they negotiate with republicans at all? the republicans have made such a mess of things that it will take a generation just to reverse the damage that was inflicted by 8 yrs of GWB.
if republicans were committed to changing things and working with a president obama, then i'd feel differently, but i just don't think that will happen. this is one reason why i support hillary. i really do see the next 4 to 8 yrs as a fight with republicans. she knows how to work the levers of power in Washington. i think she will be the most effective in terms of getting a progressive agenda implemented.
March 4, 2008 11:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think he is quoting Bill Richardson here. Another example of poor messaging around the delegate math?
March 4, 2008 11:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
Here is the near future scene I would most like to witness if Hillary Clinton remains in the race for the nomination.
Hillary has demanded that the media fully vet Obama,even though I think she just wants negative media headline attention giving weight to trumped up innuendos about Obama.
Well, let's see this newly 'fair' media engage in efforts to allow that Hillary herself be fairly and fully vetted, allowing the public to put facts to her rhetoric and claims, i.e., to thoroughly vet her innuendos about herself.
That means demands for her tax returns for the past eight years, demands for her First Lady papers, as well as any actual supporting facts that would give some time-line and substantive contents to her claims of 35 years of experience. I don't believe the media has yet even looked closely at her work product as a Senator.
March 4, 2008 11:23 AM | Reply | Permalink
They haven't done any of those things. Oh but remember, the media hates Hillary and loves Obama.
The MSM has accepted the Hillary line hook line and sinker and has never questioned any of her assertions, nor have they bothered to dig into her own experience. None of the major news outlets except for Keith Olbermann reported on her OWN CAMPAIGN's inability to answer the question "What 3am crisis has Hillary had to respond to?"
But remember, they hate Hillary and love Obama.
The MSM has been hammering Obama for the past week about Rezko, even though they know there's nothing there. They've stopped asking him questions about anything else, except for the NAFTA squabble, which for all appearances seems to have been a Canadian ploy to interfere with the Democratic primaries (the sitting government supports the GOP).
But remember, the media hates Hillary and loves Obama.
Makes me want to puke.
March 4, 2008 11:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
listen, the voters are indeed very aware of the "delegate math", and what they know tells them that (1) 2025 is required under the rules to be the nominee, (2) neither candidate can win sufficient delegates to get to that number, (3) which then makes all arguments for how winner should be determined fair game (meaning leader in pledged delegates is fair argument...meaning leader in popular vote is fair argument...meaning more representative collection of states needed to win the general election is fair argument...meaning super delegates weighing in is fair argument...meaning determining way to count the florida and michigan delegations is fair game.
the voters are quite saavy and informed and just not buying the obama and media misinformation that there is no way hillary can win the nomination. the rules do not say the person with more pledged delegates but not the required 2025 delegates wins the nomination by default.
the rules say 2025 required otherwise no definitive winner and an alternative means of determining the nominee need to be worked out by the party and the electorate.
the only one served by short-circuiting the process at this juncture in john mccain and the republicans who get an unchangeable dem nominee who's not been fully vetted by the dem nomination process (see Rezko...see Canadian government memo...see reverend jeremiah wright).
hrc wins 3 tonight and the process advances forward!
March 4, 2008 11:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
I agree. After Obama, unlike Hillary in the past, congratulates his opponent on her win in Ohio (and possibly Texas) he should, like Hillary, GO NEGATIVE!!!!!!!!
Slam her on her pharma.hedge fund donors, slam her on her hidden tax returns, ask questions about Bill Clinton's involvement in a Clinton II White House (will he live in the White House?), look into Bill Clinton's business dealings these past 8 years, revisit Whitewater and Vince Foster, ask her again why she didn't read the NIE before giving GW a $3,000,000,000,000 blank check and wasting lives (John McCain's own words) in Iraq.
Also, I think running her endorsement of McCain is also a good message to core democrats how much she should be trusted.
March 4, 2008 11:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think this means that people just don't really understand the math. I don't think she should 'have to' drop out, even if she loses both states, but do people understand she can't possibly win unless she has a blowout in both states, and wins states in upcoming contests that he's heavily favored to win? I'm sure that info added to the question would drastically alter the numbers. Sure, she can stay until the end, but why would someone do that when they simply can't win?
March 4, 2008 11:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
I went to this link
http://www.slate.com/features/delegatecounter/
I set every race including the ones on March to 10 point wins for Hillary Clinton. She still ends up losing by about 60 pledged delegates.
Hillary can not win, and she doesn't gain any new status, power, or political clout by continuing to run. Her best case scenario would be for her to win Texas and Ohio and then get out. That would allow her to go out on a win.
But by continuing to campaign she only helps the Republicans by driving up Obama's negatives without forcing McCain to take the backlash that comes from running a negative campaign. She would be, for all practical purposes, a Republican because she would be advancing their agenda and hurting the Democratic agenda.
P.S.
If Obama wins just Vermont tonight (March 4), and Mississippi on March 11, he will have clinched victories in the majority of states, he will have won 25 states total. And that is without counting any other states that he is likely to win on March 4 or later.
Obama is currently ahead of Hillary Clinton by about 1 million popular votes.
Obama is going to have won the most delegates, and the most states, and the most voters, by the end of this process. There is nothing that Hillary Clinton, or anyone else, can do to stop it.
March 4, 2008 11:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
I just did the same thing and that's actually not true. Setting all the races to 60-40 Clinton gives her a 43 delegate win. But it's a moot point because Clinton will never get 60-40 wins in ALL the remaining states.
March 4, 2008 11:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
It is true. 10 point wins are 55-45. 60-40 wins are by 20 points.
If Obama loses every race by 10 points, including the races on March 4, he will still win the pledged delegates.
Moreover, there are still races where Obama is favored to win.
Hillary can't win this race under her own power, Obama would have to lose it. In order for Obama to lose this nomination, he would have to make a major screw-up that renders himself un-electable; or the Democratic party would have to change the rules or do something at the convention that would break the party and make the Democratic nominee un-electable.
March 4, 2008 2:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
What a crock! The GOP wants Hillary to stay in the race for obvious reasons. Just listen or go to Rush Limbaugh's website today. He is openly campaigning for Hillary Clinton now.
March 4, 2008 11:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
Nobody's polled me yet.
March 4, 2008 11:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
refuting your assertion can be done in 2 easy questions:
1. under your scenario, does senator obama end up with 2025 delegates?
2. under your scenario are you discounting all routes to victory other than the one that favors your candidate, namely "leader in pledged delegates at end of primary/caucuses"?
let me answer for you: "no" and "yes", respectively.
which means you're not seeking to provide objective analysis, you're just spinning for your candidate.
again the only math truism applicable to this rate at this juncture is that NEITHER CANDIDATE CAN REACHED THE REQUIRED 2025 TO WIN THE NOMINATION OUTRIGHT.
with that reality, ALL ROUTES TO VICTORY ARE EQUALLY LEGITIMATE ROUTES TO VICTORY UNDER THE RULES.
March 4, 2008 11:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
If she lost a big state today and stayed in, one thing would be obvious. The remainder of her campaign would be all about preserving an opportunity to run again in 2012 and caring much less about helping the Dems in 2008.
March 4, 2008 11:51 AM | Reply | Permalink
But going 55-45 Clinton, which is frankly more realistic, gives Obama are ~60 delegate win.
March 4, 2008 11:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
More realistic, of course, in the sense that a snowball frozen to -20C has a better chance in hell than one merely at -5C, right?
March 4, 2008 12:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, obviously. ;)
March 4, 2008 12:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
Can something be less impossible?
March 4, 2008 12:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sure, in QM there are "first forbidden transitions" and "second forbidden transitions", for example. Hillary winning 55% of the remaining delegates is an example of the former, while her chances of winning 60% are an example of the latter.
This book has some information on second forbidden transitions, if you're interested: http://books.google.com/books?id=aMzuEby4fX4C&pg=PA161&lpg=PA161&dq=%22second+forbidden+transition%22&source=web&ots=xfE988IZCS&sig=AnzrLm-9bUgiRykqPt5zogEDU_g&hl=en
(Unfortunately, I was unable to find a web-site to give a good, short explanation, and I'm afraid I'm no longer up to the task.)
March 4, 2008 12:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
This suggests that rank and file Dems haven't really focused on the reality of the delegate math, which in turn suggests that the onus may be on the Obama camp to get out their message about their sizable pledged delegate lead a bit more effectively.
Actually it suggests that a lot of us are sick of having Obama shoved down our throats.
March 4, 2008 12:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fair enough. Now you know how we non-Clinton supporters felt back in Dec '07 and Jan '08 when both the Clinton campaign and the media were crowning Clinton the innevitable nominee.
March 4, 2008 2:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Not you, too, Greg. I can't stand it.
March 4, 2008 3:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Brother, go back to the threads around here from Dec and Jan and to the WaPo and NYT stories from the same time period and read what the folks on your side were saying to the folks on my side and what the talking heads were saying to anyone who would listen. I guarantee that everything of which Moishele presently complains was there on offer but with the spin in the other direction.
March 4, 2008 4:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
I would have a bit more respect for HRC were she doing anything but joining her voice in apassionate, harmonized duet with McCain. As far as I'm concerned, it just makes Obama the stronger candidate with more ability to attack the same memes as they continue to erupt from the GOP.
Still, it seems like there's only one candidate attacking the GOP and it ain't Hillary. If anything, she's giving aid and comfort. Not surprising, I guess, given the incestuous relationship between her standbearer, Mark Penn and McCain's standard bearer, Charles Black.
March 4, 2008 12:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
They're brothers? I didn't know that.
March 4, 2008 3:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
...in one breadth, he's the messianic candidate who can "bridge the divide" and "stop the fighting"...
...in a second breadth, he's the "dyed-in-the-wool" ardent progressive giving the opponents hell!
which is it folks? oh wait a minute...that's right, he doesn't project onto his followers, they project onto him whatever willy nilly sentiment strikes them at the moment.
March 4, 2008 12:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
good post, Greg. These numbers are EXCELLENT NEWS!! FOR HILLARY!!!
!!!HILLMENTUM™!!!!
March 4, 2008 12:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
If Mrs. Clinton does indeed win both Texas and Ohio this evening, it will be the first feather in her cap of electability. These two contests will be deciding factors in the GE and are semi-open contests. I think educated voters need to review the definitions of the different primary types. Hillary won in NY, a closed primary state and NY & NJ primary states where independent, unafilliated and/or republican voters aren't represented. When the contests are opened up, Senator Obama runs the board. Independent, unaffiliated and/or republican voters from closed states are free to vote for Senator Obama in the GE. The only question is, what is the motive for independent and republican support of Senator Obama throughout the primaries?
March 4, 2008 12:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
After today, there's nearly two months until Pennsylvania. There are a couple of smaller primaries in a week or two, and after that, nothing. Just day after day of what has happened over the last week or two (kitchen sink strategy).
Think about that. Think about how long ago it was that Iowa voted. Two months almost to the day (Jan. 3rd). It'll be almost that long between now and Pennsylvania. I just can not possibly see how such a long, drawn-out process would be helpful to either Hillary or Obama. The fact is that, based on the delegate math, the only way Hillary can win is by running an extremely divisive campaign to take out Obama in the remaining states, keep the delegate math close, and then convince super-delegates to put her over the top. I think that unless Hillary wins by double digits in both Ohio and Texas, Obama should offer her the VP slot and she should accept. It's time to focus on the GOP.
March 4, 2008 12:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm of the belief that you get the candidate, and the result, that you deserve.
If the Democrats end up fielding Hillary, after all her truth-twisting, whining, and old-fashioned "fun" bareknuckled politics, then for the general, you can kiss all those newly registered Dems goodbye. They'll be joined by enough of the independent vote and disgusted former Obama supporters to give McCain a solid win in November.
March 4, 2008 12:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
I buy into the innoculation theory of primaries, in that, the longer they go, the more prepared the candidate is for the generals. With that said, I'm also a Pennsylvanian (albeit an Obama supporter), so I have vested interest in wanting this to go on. I'll start whining after April 22.
March 4, 2008 1:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
"...suggests that the onus may be on the Obama camp to get out their message about their sizable pledged delegate lead a bit more effectively..."
I disagree, I believe it’s up to the Democratic Leadership to intervene and take over this mess.
Plus, this Hillary momentum meme is a sham. A couple of weeks ago she was supposed to have Texas and Ohio in the bag, look at what Obama has accompanied, been able to organize. All you have to do is look at the poll(s) to see that it’s been Obama that’s had the momentum – and then if you factor in Independents – there really is NO contest.
http://www.pollingreport.com/wh08dem.htm
I’ll give her this -- her republican “negative” campaigning, I believe, has made some inroads – heightened the passions let’s say! Also, I believe the pushing of her fantasy health 'insurance' plan has been effective (esp. with women), whereby she promises everything, but for those in the know, know at this stage hasn’t got a chance in hell in passing, especially with her track-record, and her ability to win friends and influence (snark).
But, really it's not all about those gutter 'republican-style' attacks against her fellow Democrat Obama, but what’s really raising red flags is her strategy and increasing aggressiveness towards Obama’s ‘Democratic’ supporters. Her scoffing at the thousands of party members who have been coming out to innocently just want to 'listen' to what he had to say. Her attacks on potential ‘Democratic’ voters that have decided to part with their hard-earned cash to support a ‘Democratic’ campaign (just not her's). Her mocking of those people who actually have the audacity to be inspired, who want to believe there is some Hope left... I mean to attack Hope!-- Is this truly what the Democratic leadership thinks is Leadership? This person that will not only have the job of having to Unify the country after Bush, but will have to Unify the Party. This person that has helped engineer this truly spectacular divide and conqueror strategy 'against' the Democratic Party rank and file? Just listen to the radio -- just listen to what her 'I'm a Victim' campaign has done!
I've tried to keep away from the blogs, as at times I wanted to explode at what she's been allowed to get away with... I totally understand that it’s the candidates job to attack their opponent -- on issues, votes etc, but when you're supposed to be on the same side, and you start running a campaign AGAINST THE PARTY itself... that's bad... Her McCain comment last night -- aka" "...If I don't get the job, then you certainly won't either...." is totally loathsome. I mean there's a line... and a price, when a candidate starts ripping the guts out of the Party for their own vested interest – That’s when, I believe, there should be an ‘intervention’ -- by the Party.
Also, I completely understand that with the Clinton power machine working 'behind' the scenes (& that it’s not just her that wants to weld the power) it's going to be difficult for many senior Party members to come out and pull rank once in while, but when she so blatantly attacks our principles, the voters, you know! the people that help fund the campaigns, GOTV... enough is enough. I do thank Richardson for at least making a stand, I hope others will follow.
During this campaign I have watched her, successfully, on queue, feed into the republican stereotype of her, she fell straight for it. When her back is against the wall, out comes the power hungry, vendetta driven, self interested politician - I truly dread what they have in store for her if she scratches her way to the nomination -- The flip flops and displays of questionable temperament from the debates alone will help feed the already entrenched stereotype.
She has to leave, her negatives are 'still' way up there... This can't go on for much longer, I can't support a candidate that comes across as a republican with no finesse, has shown little, if no respect for how I (being a Democrat, for how much longer I don’t know) think, has a problem comprehending why I might be supporting her opponent -- She is ripping the Party apart, and giving her more time in this race will not change the fact, it will not change her.
So, going back to my first point, of course, it is the job of the Democratic Party leadership to mediate, and tell her IT'S OVER, and help craft a strategy to heal the wounds within the Party, within the rank and file -- to stop this Rove divide and conqueror strategy that she created with her own thirst for power, ignoring the consequences, or the interests of the Party.
March 4, 2008 1:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
.. what Obama has "Accomplished".
Looking forward to the edit function :-)
March 4, 2008 1:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
See, I think there's something to what John Kennedy thought about elections -- that they're not mechanical processes, but chemical ones.
Lots of things can still happen between now and the convention, and the vote difference between Hillary and Barack is really quite small. I'd guess from her POV, staying in makes sense and clearing out doesn't...
March 4, 2008 1:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
finally, we find a "gamer" out there amongst all this obama-ite whining.
kudos to you, clevomon!
in this primary that has proven that every state (and territory) is relevant and significant, why should we prematurely short-ciruit the nomination process and deprive those states and voters of their right to weigh in on this nomination?
said it before, will say it again: "we should never continue the primary/caucus process out of fear, but we should never fear to continue the primary/caucus process."
March 4, 2008 1:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Her attacks are just lite versions of the pasting he (or she, for that matter) can expect in the fall, and the idea that her advisers are thinking of any material the GOP slime machine wouldn't come up with on its own is frankly ludicrous. If Obama can't come up with ways to effectively parry her attacks, he'd be toast in the fall in any case."
Why do the Republicans keep winning? Because Democrats are stupid enough to believe things like this... of course we should kick each other in the teeth, that's just what the Republicans will do to us!
It's not about candidates continuing to run or not up to the primary. The issue is we've adopted a hostage mentality on how to conduct our party politics.
March 4, 2008 2:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
greg, i really appreciate your fair-mindedness in these comment sections. if only there were more like you!
March 4, 2008 2:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
If Clinton comes up with anything at all that sticks to Obama and diminishes him as a candidate then he should not be the nominee for the fall because he will lose for sure. She has been subjected to that kind of treatment for 15 years and she is still here and a viable candidate in spite of what any of you say. If Obama cannot stand up to this for even a month – which is all it has been since the campaign has gotten really serious – then the Republicans are in for four more years. Clinton should not concede easily just because vocal Obama supporters want to win at any cost – which is what their clamoring for her to pull out amounts to. That view is not good for the party and most Democrats do not support it. In fact, the recent poll suggests that most Democrats are concerned with the possibility of buyer’s remorse if Clinton pulls out. Even with a loss in both major states, essentially half (49%) still want her in the race challenging Obama to prove himself.
March 4, 2008 2:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Seems to me that if the only difference between these two candidates is 150 votes out of 4000, there sure isn't any reason for either one to drop out so the other can be annointed. It is more than obvious that Democrats who will be voting in the general election in November are pretty much evenly split between them. Why should one candidate's supporters be disenfranchised on so little evidence of inevitability, just so that the other one can supposedly be treated as the choice of all?
March 4, 2008 2:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
According to Slate's numbers, Obama is up by 156 pledged delegates out of a total of 2228 that have been awarded to date. That means he is leading with 53.5% of the delegates to 46.5% of the delegates for Hillary or 7% of the delegates cast.
Hillary's problem is that 156 delegates is 15.9% of the 981 delegates remaining (including March 4 states). That means in order to tie Obama, Hillary needs to win 58% of the remaining delegates.
If Hillary and Obama tie in delegates today (March 4), then Hillary needs to win the rest of the delegates by a margin of 62.5-37.5 (25% victories)in every state in order to tie Obama. And even then she won't catch him until June 7, Puerto Rico.
Hillary's supporter are being lied to. She can not win.
March 4, 2008 3:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Of course she can. Super-delegates are not bound to anyone.
March 4, 2008 4:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Many of you are bogged down in the infighting of the Dem nomination. For a moment let's assume that neither candidate gets the number of delegates needed for an outright win. Since most of their policies are so similar, The next question that really should be asked is electability. For my money the evidence is in which candidate won primaries in more of the states that are likely to be critical in the election. That is where the rubber meets the road.
March 4, 2008 2:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Lets be clear here and lest have a dose of reality. Obama would not be ahead if it was not for the Republicans voting for him in the open primaries and caucuses.
March 4, 2008 2:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
haha, that's what you call reality?
Because I seem to recall conservatives calling on republicans to vote for Hillary, because they'd rather run against her.
March 4, 2008 3:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Are you denying that Republicans have been voting for Obama in huge numbers since Iowa?
March 4, 2008 4:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Uh huh. So, have you seen this yet?
March 4, 2008 4:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Like I have said before. They are coming over to influence our primaries and caucuses. Why in the world do Dems have open primaries and caucuses?
They have been doing it for Obama since Iowa. Now it seems that they are going to do it for Hillary. The Republicans play to win.
The Dems have been set up again.
March 4, 2008 4:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
yikes! this has to end... i just think it's insane to allow republicans to vote in a dem primary regardless of which candidate they vote for!
March 4, 2008 4:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
I do not really wish to disagree with you (although it happens that I do) but I rather wonder how exactly you would propose to fix the system. How would you exclude Republicans from voting in the Democratic primaries. Even closed primaries, after all, allow folks to switch registrations. In other words, the most that you can really do is force Republicans to suffer the indignity of swearing that they are Democrats before they indulge in such dirty tricks; you cannot really stop them.
The most effective way to prevent Republicans from voting in Democratic contests is to hold caucuses instead of primaries. Caucuses create a threshold of inconvience that makes it much less worthwhile for a trickster to vote in the other party's nominating contest. I was given to understand, however, that you thought rather little of caucuses. Am I merely mistaken in that impression?
March 4, 2008 5:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Has any Party ever run two candidates at the same time in the general election? Probably some kind of rule against it.
March 4, 2008 3:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
That is what I was thinking. Obama in the Democratic race and whomever they put in their race. It is a winning situation for them. They come over to our primaries/caucuses and influence the outcome.
It is great..they get to choose the candidate they want to run against.
March 4, 2008 4:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
We all know that the Republicans will back the nominee no matter what. Republicans from the most Liberal to the crazy evangelicals will fall in line.
They could vote Dem in the primaries and vote for their own party in the general.
March 4, 2008 4:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
I keep chalenging friends to tell me why they hate Hillary, and not use the word 'Iraq.' So far, every one of them is as single-vote-ish as the anti-abortion and gun-nut single-issue voters they claim are crazy.
I think even the Democrats have inhaled the FOX fog from the last, count 'em, 17 years of vilification. And many of the OBA-Maniacs on campus only know that fog, and go along with it because it's All-American.
Personally, I think the campus craze boils down to 'The Class president came over to MY house, and MOM told him to take his feet off the coffee table. I was SO embarrassed. I hate my Mom. And don't you think the Class president is dreamy?' Most of them couldn't WAIT to get away from someone who kept telling them to pick up their clothes, and Hillary keeps reminding them there's work to be done.
As for me, screw 'Turn The Page!'
I want vengeance on these Republicans!
March 4, 2008 4:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Why are dem rules so complicated? They don't have any winner take all states. What the hell is a super delegate for? Texas has a primary and a caucus and people can vote twice. Then they go and throw out two of the most populous states, MI and FL. Then get nervous when we don't have a clear winner by now.
March 4, 2008 5:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama will not go negative. Its not who he is. The Clinton camp put on a full blitz and dominated the news cycles and it looks like their timing is pretty good for today's races. She will get a short term bump and then folks will find out that she is no closer in delegates. The negativity will catch up to her and she will be scrutinized more (and lot of these in the air issues will be explained). Meanwhile the superdelegates will move over to Obama at an even faster rate than they are now. While the rank and file dems may want this to draw out. The party leaders absolutely do not.
Book it.
March 4, 2008 6:18 PM | Reply | Permalink