It's just the logical extension of the argument that the small/red/caucus/large African-American population states don't count. Now ONLY Pennsylvania counts.

What this really reflects, I think, is the difficult (or perhaps impossible) balancing act the Hillary camp is trying to strike between portraying Obama as unfit for the general election to sow doubts among surrogates while maintaining a posture of loyalty to the larger Democratic cause.

You give him more credit than I'm willing to. Mark Penn's comments have sounded detached from actual reality since before the Iowa caucuses--starting with the hilarious rejection of the DesMoines Register poll.

Maybe he's on to something the rest of us can't see. Mostly, though, he sounds just plain goofy. Tell me again why he makes so much money for Clinton?

Mark Penn "really can't stop stuffing his fat face."

Please Hillary, use this as an excuse to get rid of Penn for good!

(more) attempted fratricide IS EXCELLENT NEWS!! FOR Monsters, Inc.!!!

Mark Penn, ugh. This guy is useless. If he's really just Clinton's message guy, someone over there needs to put him out of his misery. He's really awful at this. Didn't Gore fire him?

I think the loyalty ship sailed some time ago. Let her run with McCain, since they are so clearly simpatico.

Do you guys have a 24-hour feed directly into Clinton campaign HQ?

I'm getting real sick of reading every bullshit charge coming from fatfuck Penn or scumbag hitman Wolfson on this site.

Why do you think it's appropriate to broadcast every smear and distortion coming from the Clinton camp? You're in effect rewarding them for playing sleazy cheap, lying political game.

What you're doing is exactly what the lefy blogosphere has been railing about and trying to correct for the last ten years or so. I'd really like to hear you justify this stenography.

Seriously, what the hell...

Obama is currently polling better in PA in a head-to-head vs. McCain than Clinton is!!

How does Penn spin that?

I think the media should ask why Pennthinks this is so. I know why I think Clinton will be less electable in the general election than Obama will, but I'd like to hear what Penn thinks. I believe it is the same concern that Ferraro reaises...

The real story is that the Clinton camp keeps putting out ridiculous statements that damage Obama and then walk the statements back an inch or two to the point that they become barely or maybe somewhat defensible and less offensive and/or damaging to the Democrats' chances in the general, should Obama get the nomination.

Josh has recognized this in his posts. The pattern is clear, the desperation is clear, and the win-at-any-cost tactics need to be called out for what they are.

Ummm, why does anyone care what Penn says? Greg, look back at some of Penn's earlier comments and see how much weight they carry.

Penn said in February that after Texas and Ohio Hillary would have the nomination in the bag.

Penn said way back when that after Super Tuesday Hillary would have the nomination in the bag.

So now we have Penn talking smack again, and what does it mean? It means nothing, becuase Penn is a PAID LIAR.

"We believe this will again show that Hillary is ready to win and that Senator Obama really can't win the general election."

Um, Greg, how does this come up short of an outright declaration they think Obama can't win the GE? What do they have to say to make it an outright declaration?

From Kos's front page post:

At this point we know that 1) Obama will end the contest with the most pledged delegates, 2) Obama will likely end the contest with the popular vote tally, 3) Obama will end the contest with the most money and greatest fundraising potential, 4) Obama will end the contest with the most states, 5) Obama will end the contest with the best poll numbers against McCain, and 6) Obama will end the contest with the most primary state victories and caucus state victories.

Given that all those are true: What leg does the Clinton campaign really have to stand on?

This is excellent news -- FOR HILLARY!

(Not trying to plagiarize, I just needed to get my fix and haven't seen ironic pop up today)

Careful, fat boy.

Berks County's election board is swamped with changes in party affiliation.

We added two ourselves just today. They're in the mail.

From Independent to Democrat.

Obama

John McCain may as well take a vacation till around Oct 29th, then show up for the Nov election day. Hillary's handing him the election on a Silver Platter.

Why wait for PA? It's already obvious that Obama can't beat McCain. The Democratic nominee has to win NY or CA in order to win the general election. Hillary beat Obama in NY and CA. Therefore, he can't win NY and CA in the general election. Heck, he can't even win MA in the general election because Hillary beat him there too. So he obviously can't beat McCain. The logic is airtight.

Total nonesense.

No the real story here is that Hillary has run the table in every single solitary large bloc state. To pretend that WY, ID, AK, KS, MS, UT are equal to NY, CA, TX, MI, FL, OH, PA is to be an Obamaniac.
To declare that allowing superdelegates their properly intended independent vote would be akin to stealing the election, or somehow not following the rules...is to be an Obamaniac.
Obama's "yellow brick road" campaign is enjoying orgasmic media coverage because the political media despise Clinton so hotly that they've repeatedly had to publicly apologize nationally for their rabidly over the top misogynstic commentary.
Imagine how differently Bidens campaign in 1988 would have been if plagiarism was ignored.
Hillary Clinton is striking a petrified fear within you Obama supporters because you sense the inevitable...just like the BILL CLINTON opponents in the 1990s. A compliant media worked with HIS opponents in an all out effort to stop him...but he kept coming, like a Sherman tank.
Today, an even more compliant, LAPDOG bunch of pool boys within the media are working with some Democratically-minded fringe players, and a group of moderate Repubs (in some states) to derail his wife.
And look what she's doing...
While you Obamanutz are working 24/7 to get your BLOGPALS to spin that she has to win PA by 20% pts or more, or else it's an OBAMA win (somehow)...the superdelegates are wondering how in the hell this clown carries 1/5 of the states he wins VS Hillary.
We have two choices...1) nominate Hillary and be competitive....2) nominate Obama and write off OH, PA, MI, FL.
My apologies to all my Democratic friends in UTAH and Alaska and Kanasas who so strongly support Obama. Good luck finding any in Novemeber.

Things looking good for Hillary Clinton in Puerto Rico....

Puerto Rico- Hillary Clinton's presidential campaign may be hurting but with wins in Texas and Ohio this month, a huge support of people awaits her in this island territory that most Americans know only for rum, a new KramerPoll shows the following.....

The poll, taken a few days ago shows Clinton with a commanding 70 percent to 20 percent advantage over Barack Obama, with 10 percent undecided but are thinking about supporting Clinton. Clinton is running particularly strong among men, women and young supporters.

Puerto Rico's Primary will be held June 1st.

As an Obama supporter, I really have no problem with the remark, as I've been saying the same thing about Hillary ... I don't think she can win the General Election. She is too cantankerous and polarizing, she's aligning herself to fight the Republicans on their turf on their issues, and her antiquated outlook on winning the GE based on winning a couple of swing states and ignoring the rest of the country leaves absolutely zero margin for error and why the Democrats have been on the losing end of the latest Presidential races.

Yeah, only white prejudiced lower-class low-educated senior citizen big-state whites matter!

I also note that SUSA's recent electoral map survey showed that while Obama could easily win PA, he doesn't need to. He can get to 280 without it (and also without Florida).

Hillary very much needs PA but recent RCP polls suggest she is behind McCain a few points. And she also needs Florida although will likely lose that. Hello President McCain!

Hillary is a 14 state LOSER.

I hate the Clintons and everyone associated with them. They want to burn the whole party to the ground. They are a disgrace. She will never be President, whether she gets the nomination or not.
I despise her more with every passing day, and I despised her plenty yesterday, believe me.

looks as though Penn is laying the groundwork for Hillary:

if they don't get the nomination, then she will run as VP with McCain since she thinks McCain would beat Obama anyway??!??!

What wonderful logic Penn and crew have.

In Puerto Rico.... If Clinton or Obama receives more than 60% of the vote, they get all the delegates.... If they win by less than 60%, they split the delegates.... that is how it works in Puerto Rico.

70 to 80% of the people in Puerto Rico are supporting Hillary Clinton... the Primary will be held on June 1st, before Montana and South Dakota vote on June 3rd.

They said up to 3 million in Puerto Rico might go out and vote.

Puerto Rico could help her with the delegate and popular vote problem.

Puerto Rico's Votes could help Clinton as they head to Montana and South Dakota:)

I can't find any info on Guam's Caucus, not sure who they are going to support.... fingers cross :)

I think Genghis is being sarcastic here.

And I can't say I've seen an iota of effort from Hillary's campaign to strike any kind of balance.

At this point, I'm not sure I could vote for Clinton. I've held my nose for a lot of stinkers, but race-baiting pretty much makes you a non-starter in my book.

Now she wouldn't need my vote -- I live in New York. And I've long disliked her, or at least strongly doubted her instincts and advisers. But right up until Ferraro spouted off the other day, I would have held my nose and pulled the lever. Not anymore. And I suspect there's a lot of folks that feel the way I do.

The media narrative continues to be that women are unified in their support of her, blacks are unified in their support of him and white guys like me are divided along the wine/beer divide (I'll quaff both, thanks, very happily). But I think that this week, below the easily-jammed news media radar, she lost a lot of women, and if she's the nominee, it'll send a message to black voters, and to all the rest of us who think racism has no place in Democratic politics: Don't bother.

Seriously.

Did any reporters on that call challenge Penn's fallacious logic? I don't understand how winning a primary or a caucus "proves" you'd win in the general election. In the former, you're running against someone from your own party; in the latter, someone from the other party. It's apples and oranges.

The best description of the Clinton campaign strategy I've seen thus far:

a combination of Calvinball and three card monte

Obligatory wikipedia links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinball#Calvinball
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_card_monte

Do they seriously think anyone is falling for this?

Only pledged delegates count ->
Only "automatic" deletegates count ->
Only big states count ->
Only OH, MI, FL and TX count ->
Only PA counts

I'm certain I missed a few rule changes and moved goal posts over the last 8 weeks but I will say that, much like Guiliani's campaign, Penn and Co. have become pretty satire-proof. There's nothing we can come up with that would be more hilarious and inane then the actual campaign memos they are circulating.

For the record, I'll support whoever the Dem nominee ends up being. I was leaning towards Hillary (was kind of turned off by a visit from a way-too-over-the-top Obama supporter before the NH primary). However, I do consider how a candidate runs the campaign to be a fair indicator of their executive skills, and I will say I am much more impressed by Obama than Hillary. I mean, Hillary not only hired these jokers, but keeps paying them!

Yeesh.

Hill is an ice cold politician. Below is an interview on NPR this morning in which she reflects criticism calmly, but spins, bamboozles, and hoodwinks everyone in the process. As TPM readers, I leave it to you to figure it out. But, because it has my blood boiling, let me contradict my previous statement and give you a few hints:

1. Michigan and Florida:
Key Quote - it was "his (Barack's) choice" not to campaign in Michigan.

The Democratic party and all other presidential candidates (except Kucinich) never put there names on the ballot out of respect for the DNC. Hillary did not. This article might clarify things:

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/03/03/7428/

2. In regards to the 'John McCain and I have been vetted' for being Commander and Chief comment, you state people are "mixing apples and oranges", and then go on to state that you "don't recall saying that" Let me refresh your memory:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/06/clinton-mccain-and-i-hav_n_90310.html

Welcome to the electronic age Hillary. All your hypocrisy will be recorded for future generations. Oh, and keep up the good work in destroying the democratic party.

3. In attempting to buttress your perceived experience you state "I played an instrumental role" in the peace deal in Northern Ireland. You were an incredibly active first lady, but please stop trying to pull the wool over my eyes:

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/03/08/clintons_foreign_policy_record_examined/

And on a more scathing, personal level:

Mrs. Clinton, if you steal the nomination (yes, steal, look at the delegate count) I will not vote for you in the general election, or ever again in the future. You have made me into one of the few millions of Americans who see you as a polarizing, divisive figure. Initially you had my support, then, like Darth Vader, you shot me in the face with your quail gun.

Listen and hear for yourself with what I mentioned in mind.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=88165077

Before you make the decision not to support Clinton

Clinton is using bigotry as an element of her campaign. There can be no doubt of this now. I cannot and will not vote for Lee Atwater Lite. If that were to result in a win for McWar, so be it. Like Lysistrata, my sole power over the Democratic Party is the power to say "No," and I'll exercise it. A party without principles isn't worth sustaining.

Would someone please refresh my recollection on which of the two Democrats has the higher persistent negative ratings, over the past several years, and they have not gone down this year. People with that type of voter approval ceiling have no chance in a national election.

Are you paying attention to that reality: Super Delegates.

Hillary would be a disaster in November.

Confident, dominating competitors have no need to disparage their inferior competition. If the people here are representative Obama (and he has always said it's about "you") then it is certain that Obama and his legion are neither confident nor dominating. Obama's supporters are all about negative energy and division.

Sadly, Obama's supporters live in fear and animosity...and they hear those footsteps behind them.....

Naw, it's really not at all likely that she wins the popular vote OR the most pledged delegates. Here's a very good summary, pre-MS, of the math:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/3/9/184226/0219

You gotta keep in mind that he's got a 700,000 vote lead (even without any numbers at all from several caucus states where he won big). A Michigan redo can do nothing but improve his count there and reduce hers. She has to get over 65% of the vote in every remaining primary (something she hasn't done anywhere but Arkansas) to win the pledged delegate count. And every state where she falls short of that number means she has to win the next state by even more.

People, People, People,

The ONLY states that matter are the ones that Hillary wins. That was established a long time ago.

You got where the footsteps of the Pantsuited wonder woman are. Behind Obama and eating his dust.
Hillary ran the fear mongering ad, and her best pal Ferraro played the race baiting card. Desperate tactics by desperate people trailing behind and gasping for oxygen.

Hillary has endorsed John McCain for Commander in Chief over Senator Obama, even though McCain wants to stay in Iraq for a hundred years, and wants to maintain all of George W. Bush's domestic and foreign policies. He has not learned to even love waterboarding. Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton is a traitor to the party.

Hillary is the new Lieberman.

Also Mothra and Megalon!

I haven't seen anyone link to this yet. It's from the Obama campaign per USA Today. Pretty funny....

http://tinyurl.com/336263

Have you seen the numbers for Arkansas? If Gore could have done that in his home state of Tennessee, he would be just finishing his second term.

Will anyone give me a logical argument for why if Hillary wins the overall popular vote, the superdelegates should thwart the will of the people and choose Obama instead?

Have your revolution. Young voters have always been the least reliable and they always flake out in the general. Big surprise. The elderly vote like clockwork and that's why they're more important.

As far as the "all states are the same" malarkey, no intelligent person on either side believes that. The fact remains that Obama has been unable to carry (buy) a single large state except his own and that bodes badly for the future. He is about to blow his last chance to show that he can.

Penn's unique talent seems to be that he is expert at moving the goal post while the game is still in progress. Now that takes talent.

sorry, I meant "are delusional jokes"

there's no evidence at all that carrying or not carrying big states in the primaries means a candidate with carry them in the general election. Currently, Hillary is up double digits over Obama in Pa, but the same poll shows no difference between them vs. McCain in Pa. Obama will easily carry NY and Cal. despite losing them in the primaries. Hillary won't carry Texas. She won OH by double digits, but again there's no difference between her numbers vs. McCain and Obama's numbers vs. McCain in OH. This line of reasoning is silly, and even Penn and Wolfson know it.

yep, if Obama gets the nomination, all the McCain team has to do is point out what the Hillary campaign said about him. Talk about a scorched earch policy.

It's truly sad watching this primary devolve. I think Penn's comments expose his intentions and bring context to the seemingly incongruous events of the past few weeks. When I first heard that HRC had taken money from Murdoch, I was astounded. The man who brought us Colmes as a surrogate for Dem "fair and balanced" representation on FNN. Then we hear about Bill doing a turn on Rush Limbaugh prior to TX, getting out the Repub vote. Followed earlier this week by a seemingly crazy Ferraro, an FNN contributor, playing to the baser instincts of a segment of our population and unfortunately in the North, a dem voting block. Followed by the terse, "we don't agree with her". Hardly an instant repudiation. Now, we witness Fox pulling out footage of Obama's pastor. His pastor. After FNN has been allowing the most vile and vitrolic religious wingnuts to use their network as a virtual pulpit of hate and fearmongering for a decade.

The reason Penn is making this claim, is that he's putting everyone on notice that this race baiting, disgusting plan of his will pay dividends in PA and that this is his baby. He could care less how this might destroy our chances in Nov. He's a scumbag and his consulting company owns the lobbying subsidiary that McCain's campaign manager is CEO of. What exactly is his downside? http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/2/24/14518/2213/544/463202

Penn and Hillary are all in. They expect to destroy Obama's electibility by the time the PA contest rolls around. They will attempt to turn the supers by pointing at the angry black man and the white vote in PA. They will do it with the help of Fox, Murdoch and the folks that believe Ferraro was just tellin in like it is. Our DNC leadership should shut this down now, or be complicit in another loss of an entire generation of democrats and progressives. Truly shameful, and I thought this country was ready to put this horror in the history books for good. Is it possible even Machiavelli could spin in his grave?

I just wonder how this plays out in the GE when only Ferraro and a few "ethnic" whites show up to vote.

I was just over at Slate looking at their delegate calculator, and it just seems increasingly clear to me that Obama has already won.
I wish a big name columnist or two would take up this call: "Is It Just Me, or Has Obama Already Won?"
Because really, he has. By acting like Clinton is viable, we're just encouraging this Dem trainwreck. And guess what? At the end of it, she'll still lose.

I think Pelosi is on record denouncing the CIC threshold gambit as destroying the "dream ticket". Reid is also getting testy about the whole, caucuses don't count, along with small states and states that don't vote for HRC. I don't understand why Edwards doesn't step up. Is he waiting on his delegates to be ratified from Iowa, so he can send them to another candidate? His voice would be important right now.

Penn's statement assumes that Democrats will not unite behind the eventual nominee. What evidence is there for that? And on his logic, should we assume that Democrats in states Obama won in the primaries/caucuses will not go for Clinton in the general? Thus equally ensuring a Democratic defeat? Penn's line of argument makes no sense. When will someone call them on this?

Mark Penn has moved far past doublespeak to triple and quadruplespeak. What is he talking about?

If Hillary takes the nomination without winning the pledged delegates (after, based on his advice, making this campaign about race) she will lose the election and a generation of young, independent, and African American voters.

Penn is an irresponsible, untalented hack who is desperately trying to avoid the permanent destruction of his reputation. Sorry Mark, it's too late.

I know this has been said before, but surely the fact that Hillary hasn't fired this guy after all the stupid crap he spouts indicates that she really doesn't have what it takes to be President.

8 years of blind loyalty to incompetent subordinates is surely more than enough.

You are correct -pie in the sky hope is all you are being offered

Why is everyone hyperventilating over this remark?
Obama attacks against Hillary are far more personal in nature when he says she is too divisive to win.

I don't understand why Clinton doesn't put the slob Penn in a room with a bathroom, lock the door and keep him there until either the nomination is decided or the GE completed. Having said that, he is correct. Obama has national GE issues.

Gallup Daily: Clinton Moves Into Lead Over Obama
March 19, 2008
Hillary Clinton holds a significant 49% to 42% lead over Barack Obama in Gallup Poll Daily tracking on the Democratic presidential nomination. John McCain has an advantage over both Democrats in the latest general election preference polling.

Today (3/20): Obama Total Unfavorables on Rasmussenreports.com at 49%; Very Unfavorable 31%.
Obama Total Favorable: 48%

If Obama loses NC, worry for your hero. Pennsylvania is lost, it's just the margin now. It's possible, Obama will lose all primaries remaining except Oregon. Food for Super Delegate thought.