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Rasmussen: Obama Catching Up In Texas And Ohio
Two new polls from Rasmussen show the primary races tightening in Texas and Ohio — with Hillary's previous big lead in Texas down to a dead heat. Here are the numbers, compared to the polls released only a week ago:
Ohio:
Clinton 48% (-3)
Obama 40% (+3)
Texas:
Clinton 47% (-7)
Obama 44% (+6)
Obama has demonstrated a clear pattern in many primary states of badly trailing Hillary until just a week or two before the primary, at which point the race tightens and then he even takes a good-sized lead. If that pattern holds here, it won't be good news for Hillary.
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And look at the graph at www.pollster.com of Texas polling for the Dem primary. Which line would you rather be with two weeks until election day?
http://www.pollster.com/08-TX-Dem-Pres-Primary.php
Obama's numbers are what you call momentum. Or the trajectory of a rocketship.
February 22, 2008 11:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
More good news. Here's looking forward to Mar 4.
February 22, 2008 11:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
Add this to the mix, early voting in texas is through the roof, and we have the makings of another obama blow-out. Check this out:
http://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/stories/2008/02/18/daily32.html?ana=from_rss
Not good for clinton. This may be over 3/5, if not sooner.
February 22, 2008 12:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm signing up for intrade and I'm going to put a ton of money on Obama to win the nomination. And I am generally not a betting man. The nomination race has almost - almost - become uninteresting to me. I think this one's over.
February 22, 2008 12:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
You should've done that a few weeks ago when it was 65% - 35% in Hillary's favor. Thats how you make money. At this point he's favored 82% to 18%. Not much money to make :)
February 22, 2008 1:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think the primary is already over. It feels like the end of the football game when the sportcaster, trying to maintain a senses of suspense, keeps talking about all the wild options that the losing team has to somehow pull off a win.
February 22, 2008 12:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
I like that, it's a good simile for what the race has become.
February 22, 2008 12:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Exactly right.
"If Team Clinton can drive 60 yards for a field goal here, they'll have just enough time left to try to recover an on-side kick and throw up a Hail Mary (or would it be Hail Hillary?) for the winning touchdown...."
That's pretty much where we are right now.
Or actually, on second thought, the better analogy would be the college football rankings system. This is due to the fact that margin matters here because of perception and superdelegates. Just like teams like to run up the score in college football to get more number one votes, Obama has an incentive to try and get blow-out wins in the remaining contests to salt it away. The truth is he is likely to win anyway, even with close wins (or even close losses) in OH, TX and PA, but big wins in any of these states pretty much means he's got that "national championship" wrapped up.
February 22, 2008 12:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Haven't you guys learned anything about the Clintons? They're best when up against the ropes. And Hillary's little "emotional moment" in last night's debate could bring out the sympathy voters, a la N.H., even if she stole the talking points.
Then again, this sheisty insistence on seating FL and MI could turn enough people off that she takes a major thumpin' in TX and OH.
February 22, 2008 12:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
Agreed. If this were a football game, Team Obama would be up by 10 points with 5 minutes left. Looking good - BUT - the Clinton team has the ball with shot at a Texas & Ohio TD = 7 points. Pennsylvania is worth a field goal = 3 points. If Obama and his supporters let their guard down, there's plenty of time for the Clinton team to tie this thing up and take it into overtime (the convention). Play "the full 60 minutes" Obama team.
February 22, 2008 1:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Why would you possibly say that the Clinton's have the ball. Obama is closing the gap in all three states, which suggests, at risk of overplaying the metaphor, that he's the one with ball. All he has to do is hang onto it and run out the clock.
Moreover, Clinton's unlikely to score a "touchdown" in any of them. Barring any unexpected events, her best case scenario is a marginal win in all three (three field goals?) which won't get her the numbers to win the nomination.
Not sure what your evidence is that Clinton is "best when up against the ropes". Hillary Clinton won in NH by the margins that she was expected to win before Obama took Iowa. Her perceived weakness was a case of post-Iowa overexuberance by the press and flawed polling. Moreover, she's been up against said ropes ever since super tuesday and especially after the potomac primaries with no evidence of a comeback in site.
February 22, 2008 1:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
In football terms, she's really down by 18 - needing three touchdowns to win. Two TDs and a field goal won't do it. And it's midway through the 4th quarter, on a muddy field.
Oh, and she's facing 3rd and long on her own 25...
February 23, 2008 12:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Leave Hillary Alone!
February 22, 2008 1:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
In the past ten state contests, a vast majority of the voters have done just that, so your wish was their command.
Great Campaign slogan: Leave Hillery alone, all by herself, while the rest of us get behind Obama!
February 22, 2008 1:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
I like your candidate, I hate your sentiment. Why kick us Hillary supporters while we're down? Obama wouldn't approve.
February 22, 2008 1:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
All he has to do is win the popular vote in Texas, Ohio or Pennsylvania, and he's the nominee. Should be a walk in the park.
February 22, 2008 1:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
If it gets to PA it would only be because he had lost in either Texas, Ohio, or both. Can you imagine the Clinton campaign spending a month working to get her nominated in what would be mathmatically impossible (without a huge superdelagate win) and with 14 straight loses at her back (with two of them in her biggest "strongholds/firewalls").
Campaigns are difficult enough, in those circumstances you would end up looking like Ron Paul still taking his chances at winning seriously.
February 22, 2008 1:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
If she loses any of those states -- Texas, Ohio or Pennsylvania -- he'll be the nominee. But, if she wins Texas and Ohio, she'll win Pennsylvania. So he has to win either Texas or Ohio to put the game away. Nothing to it. He has 3 ways to win, only one way to lose. Poor old McCain is self-destructing. Electability is no longer an issue. Clinton may stay in the race if she loses Texas or Ohio, but it won't be because she thinks she can win the nomination. Michelle should be deciding what to wear to the inaugural. No?
February 22, 2008 2:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Not a walk in the park at all. It will be a hard fight and the Obama team is geared up for it. They are not claiming any victories in those states. Their aim is to keep any Clinton victories to a small plurality. One small but significant fact: according to the Times (article on Clinton team going through money like it was water), Clinton has less than $8 million right now to Obama's $19. A slight edge there. And they are going into three of the most media expensive states.
One reason why the Obama team is winning is that they don't take any state for granted, which is something the Clinton team has done. In fact they took all the Super Tuesday states for granted, and didn't fund up for a campaign following that debacle.
No, there is not walk in the park. Don't know where you got that from.
February 22, 2008 7:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Can anyone explain to me their theory on why MA looks so close for McCain against Obama?
Obama (D) 48%, McCain (R) 46%
But better for Hillary?
Clinton (D) 52%, McCain (R) 43%
The proximity of MA to NY? It can't be name recognition...does McCain have some ties there I might not be aware of?
February 22, 2008 1:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Two words: Deval Patrick
Deval Patrick is the guy Obama is borrowing words from. He was a good talker and he used the words Obama is using to diffuse attack from Romney's lt. governor that he was an all talker not a doer. Look what happened after Deval Patrick took over. His approval rating dropped by 20% in two months. He has yet recovered. The good people of MA have watched this movie before. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me!
February 22, 2008 2:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Agree. In the general, Patrick is a real liability. I can't even count the number of people Obama is going to have to run away from if he gets to the general. He is one lucky guy, though. His opponents have a way of involving themselves in scandals at just the right moment.
February 22, 2008 2:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Same reason McCain is kicking his ass in Alabama. The Democratic Primary is not the general election. Here's a pop quiz. Name a red state Obama can win against McCain. What is the Obama strategy for winning Ohio and Florida? If Obama doesn't win the general in an LBJ style landslide, but barely ekes it out like JFK did, what happens to his plan to govern by consensus? Oh my.
February 22, 2008 2:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
North Carolina is one red state that Obama could carry that Hillary never will. Trust me. It won't be easy, but with a 20% African American population, a history of Democratic governors, a pissed off military (study up on Republican Rep. Walter Jones' dramatic turnaround on Iraq for a sneak preview), and two pretty weak (or at least invisible) Republican Senators, it could happen.
Remember. Harvey Gantt came very close to unseating Jesse Helms, and that was a long tiome ago when NC was less urban than it is now.
I imagine if Obama picked John Edwards as a running mate, that would hurt his chances in NC. Too much baggage. Likewise, if McCain took Richard Burr as his running mate (Lord have mercy on us all), loyalty would probably carry the state for McCain.
Otherwise it will be very close.
February 22, 2008 2:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
McCain picking Burr? That would be great news for the Democrat party.
February 22, 2008 6:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree. He's not the brightest bulb in the chandelier. But it has been mentioned.
February 22, 2008 7:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Iowa, Missouri, Colorado were all red states last go around and I will confidently assert that Obama can win at least two of them and maybe all three while I have dim hopes of Clinton taking any. Ohio and New Mexico were also red states last go around and I would give both Obama and Clinton about equal odds of taking either or both.
Finally, Michigan, Wisconsin, Washington and New Hampshire were all blue states last go around and I would confidently predict that Obama will retain all four, while I would not be surprised to see Clinton lose any or all of them (certainly that is what the current head-to-heads suggest).
February 22, 2008 3:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Once your lover boy is exposed what a phony he is, he stands no chance or whatsoever. You think his "present" votes in IL, his Rezko connection, his Ayers connection, his comparison to Deval Patrick, his extreme librul voting record will not be thoroughly exposed in the GE. son, let me tell you something. You can fool some people all the time, you can fool many people some time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time. Get real!
February 22, 2008 3:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fair enough. Which states that went red last time do you suppose that Clinton could flip this go around?
February 22, 2008 3:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
I will give you two: AR and OH are in the bag.
IA, NM, and NV will very likely come back to the fold.
February 22, 2008 3:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
OH and NM I will happily give to you (that turns it into a narrow democratic victory), although the polls are (barely) against you. IA, NV and AR, however, make me think you are dreaming. Do you have any actual evidence to support those predictions?
As near as I can tell, if Clinton could carry AR she would need only one more miracle to qualify for sainthood. Remember, Al Gore (former senator from TN) could not carry TN in the GE, so the fact that Clinton was once the first lady of AR proves nothing.
February 22, 2008 3:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Gore lost TN. That's actually the reason I was not as bitter about the loss as many other people. Of course, Kerry lost last election by more than 3 million. It would be totally chaos if he somehow won the presidency with OH but lost popular vote by 3 MM. That will be the death of electrol college. So I did not feel as bad in 2004 as in 2000.
You saw how easily Hillary won over Obama in AR. The people there still love Hillary, no question about that. If Hillary cannot win AR, Obama stands no chance. But I really think Hillary can win. Just look at AR - two D senators, 3/4 D House members, and a D governor. I suppose you do not know AR as much as you thought.
February 22, 2008 3:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree that Obama has no chance in AR. I do not think that either of them will carry a single southern state. That said, I am not convinced in the least that she stands any more than a snowball's chance in Hell of carrying AR, your point about Arkansas' congressional delegation and governor notwithstanding.
February 22, 2008 4:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am sure that they will be much touted. I also expect that they will make no more difference than they have already. It is not as if Clinton has not tried to gain traction on these issues, but voters just do not care about them. If McCain wants to waste his time on the same futile approaches, all the better.
February 22, 2008 4:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Do you think McCain and the rightwing will approach these issues as gently as Hillary? Do you think the fevor for Obama will continue unabated into the fall? I hate to call anyone delusional but please be realistic. The media will not love Obama forever.
February 22, 2008 5:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Just because Obama beat Clinton in those states, doesn't mean he'll beat McCain in them. He may very well do so, but there has to be more than the warm fuzzies of a string of primary victories, and the flush of a revival speech, to draw that conclusion.
PS Is anyone still struggling to make posts to TPM sites?
February 22, 2008 4:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
My contention is not based on his primary victories, but rather on current head-to-head poll results (for whatever those are worth).
February 22, 2008 4:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
McCain-Obama. Red States last time, looking Purple this time. These are all Rassmussen polls (unless otherwise noted), February 2008:
MO(11). 49-43, Obama
NM(5). 55-40, Obama
KS(6). 50-44, McCain
IA(7). 44-41, Obama
VA(13). 49-44, Obama
OH(20). 42-41, McCain
NV(5). 50-38, Obama
FL(27). 41-39, McCain (Quinniapac)
CO(9). 46-39, Obama
And we still haven't gotten any 'Muss polls from NC, IN or NE.
Of course, it's early. Yet, in the states I've cited, the Republicans may have to play defense states that total up to 103 EVs. Throw in Obama's passionate ground game and a possibly weaker fundraising year for Republicans, and it's going to be a tough run for McCain. That's much more terrain he has to cover, and any Dem candidate should have CA/NY in his/her backpocket.
This has the makins' of a rout.
February 22, 2008 3:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Billy Glad:
Red States Obama can win in November:
Virginia -- I'd FAVOR Obama to win there, whether or not Kaine is his running mate. Also, good chances in NC, IN, TX, ND, SD; he'd make McCain work hard and spend in KS, AK, GA, LA, SC.
Note Obama's down only 6 to McCain in SUSA head to head.
February 22, 2008 7:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
6 points down . . . in KANSAS, I meant to say.
February 22, 2008 7:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Feb 20-21 Texas poll: Obama leads 57% to 43%
source
February 22, 2008 1:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Even if Senator Obama wins both Texas and Ohio it will not be over, because it is not in Hillary or Bill's nature to concede gracefully for the good of the party.
Hillary is the Black Knight, in Quest for The Holy Grail.
February 22, 2008 1:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
She'll concede if he wins Texas or Ohio. With McCain in deep trouble, there is no point in her roughing Obama up any more. She and Bill will take a richly deserved vacation in Anguilla.
February 22, 2008 2:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hey People;
You seemed pretty engaged so I have a help request.
If anyone knows of a current write-in campaign to tell the Congrss to not cave in to Bush about this telecom immunity issue could you email it to me?
I am mad as hell and want to let my congressman know he has my full support to not yield to this intimidation.
Thanks,
David
drwilbur@gmail.com
February 22, 2008 2:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
here are a few. dailykos is always a good place to search for these sorts of action items. usually someone is chatting about them.
http://ga3.org/campaign/fisa
http://action.firedoglake.com/page/petition/RestoreFISA
http://www.jeffmerkley.com/2008/01/sign_the_petiti_1.php
February 22, 2008 9:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Am I the only person who doesn't like the misty-eyed moments? I like Hillary better when she's being her smart, strong, informed self. I can't think of another job in which it is beneficial to cry publically when under pressure. I don't want a president who shows he/she is "human," especially given the challenges ahead for anyone who inherits the Bush mess. We need an extraordinary person to lead our country.
February 22, 2008 2:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Her "tearing-up" moment may have helped her in NH. I guarantee it would be a liability against a McCain candidacy. His campaign plays that tape, and she's done, on the spot.
Would you want a President who responded to an attack by crying? That's how the question will be framed.
That is not something she can hope to recover from in a campaign. Especially not the one she's run up to now. Anyone in future runs who hires any of her leading advisers from this campaign has a political death wish. (Much in the same way, once I saw Edwards signing up Joe Trippi, I knew he was done for. Look what happened in 2004 in Iowa.)
February 23, 2008 12:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Eric, your are freakingly idiotic! Why are you so excited? Yesterday, there where polls out showing Hillary leading Obamamaniac by 1% in TX and 7% in OH. If anything, these new polls show her lead widening. Were you born last night?
February 22, 2008 2:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Those polls were not Rasmussen polls. Eric is comparing this weeks Rasumssen polls to last weeks Rasmussen polls (apples to apples). Your comparison of yesterday's ABC/WaPo poll to today's Rasmussen is apples to oranges.
February 22, 2008 3:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ok, you see a poll favoring Obama. You post it prominently on the front page. Do you see the same kind of excitement from the operators here when a poll favoring Clinton comes out? Gimme a break! This site is so biased. It is laughable for them to claim that they have a neutral position.
February 22, 2008 5:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Those polls were not Rasmussen polls. Mr Kleefeld is comparing this week's Rasumssen polls to last week's Rasmussen polls (apples to apples). Your comparison of yesterday's ABC/WaPo poll to today's Rasmussen is apples to oranges.
February 22, 2008 3:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Very nice language to use. That is sure to make Obama supporters switch to Hillary or support her if she wins the nomination.
February 22, 2008 6:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
This will be over on March 4th and the Clinton's are damaging their chances by insisting on counting Florida and Michigan and relying on superdelegates to give them the nomination...
Since the Clintons have really tarnished their image, they might as well not give up and make a 3rd party run. If the Clinton's have more time to smear Obama, they may have a chance in November...
February 22, 2008 2:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
Just for clarity, Obama has won 11 in a row. He won the expats primary, 65% to 33%. http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=t&ct=us/1-0&fp=47bf491866609343&ei=3Cm_R5jKEJWoygTf452NBg&url=http%3A//www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0%2C2144%2C3143740%2C00.html&cid=0&sig2=hOpyEeCX93RJgjkTguQqKg
February 22, 2008 3:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Aimey May wrote:
"Eric, your are freakingly idiotic! Why are you so excited? Yesterday, there where polls out showing Hillary leading Obamamaniac by 1% in TX and 7% in OH. If anything, these new polls show her lead widening. Were you born last night?"
Aimey - I'm glad that HRC supporters post here; the site would be a lot less interesting and informative were it to be otherwise. But I've yet to read a single post from you that offered any type of useful information and/or insight. Your M.O. consists of posting hateful comments written at what appears to be a third-grade level. Until you can post without indulging your penchant for random and childish name-calling, kindly shut up.
February 22, 2008 3:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
What red states can Obama win against a very flawed candidate in McCain and a party that's divided, and running away from Bush???
Iirc all these states were red in 2004 ~ Nevada, Colorado, Virginia, Missouri, North Carolina, New Mexico, Iowa and Ohio.
But yeah, Obama won't do well in the deep south. Go figure.
February 22, 2008 3:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Mr. Clinton won all these states except for VA and NC. Mrs. Clinton has as a good chance to win these states as Mr. Obama. Honestly, we should forget about NC. On the other hand, Clinton will win AR but Obama stands no chance there.
February 22, 2008 3:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
No comparison now to what happened when Bill Clinton ran. There is no Ross Perot in this year's race to split the right wing votes. Bill Clinton would not have won except for Perot siphoning off a large share of Bush One's base.
Look up the percentage of the total popular vote that Bill Clinton received in 1992. Ross Perot put Bill Clinton in the White House.
February 22, 2008 5:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
No she didn't, she lost Iowa and Colorado as well. BTW, neither Ohio nor NC have held their primaries yet.
February 22, 2008 6:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Aimey,
I am not the Eric you were replying to, but a different Eric. Are you sure you're comparing the right polls? Either way, "Freakingly idiotic?""Were you born last night?" How about taking it down a notch?
February 22, 2008 3:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
If her campaign coffers were still full, I suspect she would fight on to PA no matter what. But when she's funding her own campaign millions of dollars and spending as much time groveling for more funds as she is shaking hands and kissing babies, fighting it out until the very end is not a luxory she can indulge in.
And I say Virginia is very much a coin toss with Obama. McCain isn't going to be able to rally the evangelical base in the rural and western parts of the state that Bush has the last two elections.
February 22, 2008 3:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is why I think if Obama gets the nomination, he should give serious serious thought in getting Gov. Kaine to accept the VP slot. That would lock up VA for the Dems and make McCain go defensive in states he can't spend time trying to shore up (and failing I might add). Which means he is not working it in Ohio, Florida, and a host of other must win states.
An Obama/Kaine ticket would totally upend the GOP apple cart.
February 22, 2008 6:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Agree, absolutely. Obama shouldn't go for the sage to help wizen up the ticket (Bush/Cheney) but the smart hottie (Clinton/Gore).
February 23, 2008 1:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Just because Obama beat Clinton in those states, doesn't mean he'll beat McCain in them. He may very well do so, but there has to be more than the warm fuzzies of a string of primary victories, and the flush of a revival speech, to draw that conclusion.
February 22, 2008 4:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
So what is your point? Are you trying to claim that Hillery, who lost to Obama in all those states, would have a chance against McCain in those same states. KISS. The guy who beat Hillary has a hell of a lot better chance to beat McCain in those states than the person who lost to Obama in all those states.
February 22, 2008 5:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
I would say record breaking turnouts across the board might indicate something more at play than a case of the "warm and fuzzies".
February 22, 2008 4:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Again, the problem with Hillary Clinton is that she's Hillary Clinton. If you believe Bill Clinton, or Hillary Clinton care one iota about the American people, except in so far as they can get the both of them reelected to high office, you're either working for them, or sadly mistaken. All expectations and desires aside, there’s just no turning a sow’s ear into a silk purse: http://theseedsof9-11.com
February 22, 2008 4:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, I'm still waiting to hear the campaign strategy that is going to win Ohio and Florida for Obama. What coalition of voters is he going to put together to win those states? But like I say he is lucky. His opponents all seem to involve themselves in scandals at the last minute, so maybe McCain will self-destruct. Most of this comment misses the point that if Obama doesn't win in a landslide he's a lame duck before he's sworn in.
February 22, 2008 5:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
As I see it, there is no Obama strategy for winning Florida. Neither Clinton nor Obama will win Florida. As regards winning OH, I dare say that turning out more student voters than we did last time could put us over the top. We only lost last time by 2.11% (~119K votes), so better young voter mobilization could reasonably be expected to swing it our way this time.
February 22, 2008 5:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
I disagree. I think Flordia (and definately Ohio) are winnable if if Obama gets the nomination gets Gov. Kaine-VA to accept the VP slot. That would lock up VA for the Dems and make McCain go defensive in states he can't spend time trying to shore up (and failing I might add). Which means he is not working it in Ohio, Florida, and a host of other must win states.
An Obama/Kaine ticket would totally upend the GOP apple cart.
February 22, 2008 6:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Any Democrat could start by making damn sure that all eligible Floridians get to vote, and their votes get counted; that ChoicePoint and the Republican admin of FL don't purge thousands of African Americans from the voter rolls as supposed "felons", and that the rest of the Rethuglican voting dirty tricks from caging to intimidation to misdirection and disinformation (such as, for example, about what day is Election Day) don't alter the vote.
Had Gore been prepared for that in 2000, we would have had a very different last seven years.
February 24, 2008 3:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
Greg, quick question....do you work for TPM? You seem to post a lot. : )
February 22, 2008 5:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Maybe I'm hopelessly optimistic, but there is a slight chance that Obama could win Texas!
I saw a poll yesterday that showed McCain leading Obama by 9% in Texas. That's not a lot.
But, even more important: 60% of Texans were against the Iraq war, and even more were against Bush. Not good numbers for McCain. I'll try to find the poll...
February 22, 2008 5:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
As far as Ohio goes ... keep in mind this.
Kerry won among self labeled moderates 59% to 41%. Winning over the independants wasn't the issue in Ohio for Democrats.
Bush won because he was able to get his base to the booth. 5% more conservative voters went to the polls in 2004 than went in 2000.
In contrast, Kerry only got 2% more self labeled liberal voters to vote than 2000.
McCain won't be able to draw the evangelical, far right base that Bush did. Obama will appeal more to the young, the left and African Americans (12% of the state population).
February 22, 2008 5:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, I was a little off.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/02/21/texas.poll/index.html
CNN poll:
61 percent of Texans said they oppose the war in Iraq. Meanwhile, 62 percent said they believe the U.S. economy is in a recession.
55 percent -- said they disapprove of the job Bush is doing
Still favors Obama, IMO.
February 22, 2008 5:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't think that Hillary can beat McCain. They're offering similar stuff, and he's more likable with the general electorate. The fact is that Obama will have a better chance.
Looking at the mood of the country right now, I think you'll see at least a couple surprises from formerly red states. I've read what rightwing bloggers are putting out as the "plan of attack" on Obama. It isn't hard hitting whatsoever.
It seems that many many people are willing to give him a pass on his lack of experience, and McCain has wrapped himself in a hugely unpopular war. How does that add up to anything but a Dem victory?
I like Hillary. It's important that dems don't pile on each other's favorites. We'll need everyone on board in November.
February 22, 2008 6:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't think McCain can beat anybody if the MSM keeps dogging him about his sex life, so whether Hillary or Obama would beat him best may be moot. For sure, the Dem nomination doesn't hang on who can beat McCain. That said, in a way that Progressives can't see, maybe it's just off your spectrum, Obama may be the one candidate even a hamstrung McCain can beat. Partly its about whose base has someplace to go -- Obama's has no place to go, while Hillary's does. And partly -- and here's the part I think Progressives have a hard time seeing -- it's because most Americans distinguish the invasion from the occupation, and Obama and most Progressives don't. So maybe there is just a load of people out there who don't mind the invasion all that much, but think the occupation is a disaster. McCain has been very hard on the way the occupation was handled. If McCain separates the invasion from the occupation, while he could have taken Clinton on only on the occupation, he can take Obama on on both the invasion and the occupation. To give you an idea of what I'm talking about, Jim Webb barely won Virginia by condemning the occupation, but not the invasion. To give you even a better idea, consider the fact that after 2006, we have not been able to bring the troops home. Consider the fact that Lieberman is the Senator from Connecticutt in spite of being defeated in the Dem primary and having the Dem establishment campaign against him. Anti-invasion is not a winning argument with America, and that's all Obama has. Please don't shoot the messenger.
February 22, 2008 7:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Responding to Billy Glad early in the thread, having Michelle O. picking out her inaugural gown, just scrolling down to comment I see the gentleman's been active all afternoon.
As a historian who's tried to note the reversals and "boulversements," upsettings if I remember my French correctly, that have dogged political history in the advanced nations in the "modern" last two or three centuries.
When you look at your world-changing leaders, your Napoleon and Palmerston, Churchill, FD Roosevelt, Hitler and Stalin and Mao too, there are such ups and downs on the path to power, such apparent reversals of fortune and periods when the future leader seemed definitively eclipsed.
Also, as one worried about the possible existence of a "secret government" centered in the intelligence community since before Nov. 22, 1963 to the present day, arguably if this scenario is correct they haven't had a president they couldn't live with and/or intimidate since then, and they aren't about to start now that they've got global secret prisons and "total intelligence awareness" over global electronic communication. If this scenario has any reality at all, either Barack Obama is already acquainted with these people ... or Michelle should be worrying, unfortunately but given the history of these people (in the arguments for the reality of this scenario) perhaps more about her life insurance than her inaugural gown ... and if I seem out of line here, I only reflect today's polling of African Americans ...
February 22, 2008 9:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Not surprisingly, Billy, I do not agree. I think parsing on invasion vs. occupation isn't really going to fly (and I don't understand why McCain "has" Barack on the invasion... ). More importantly, I simply do not agree on the base issue. I do not see where Hillary has to go--the entire country knows her and has made up their minds about her. There simply is not a lot of give in her numbers--especially when almost 1/2 of the country disapproves of her.
You argue that if Obama cannot convince half the party of his message, how is he going to convince the country? I argue if Hillary, the presumptive nominee, can't convince half the party, that is far worse. Obama is introducing himself to voters, he had a huge uphill climb, and the fact that he's been able to get where he is is a true testament to his ability to convince people. For Hillary, everyone knows her, and I simply don't see where she's going to get more votes. The more people see Obama, the more they want to vote for him. It's not true for Hillary.
February 22, 2008 9:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Aimey: I think it's less to do with "the movie you've seen before" and more to do with furious progressive feminists. Every man in the establishment- from Teddy to Duval backed Obama and the women of MA didn't like it.
Once they realize the threat against Roe v. Wade, everyone will get in line no matter who the democratic nominee may be;
No way all these angry women will vote for McCain. Once they relax and take a breather- they'll do the right thing.
February 22, 2008 10:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am very impressed by Kaine. He could easily win over southerners who voted for Bush based on his personality (I know few, one of whom has an Obama bumper sticker at the moment). There is no reason to write off the South with Obama - Virginia, North Carolina, and Florida are ripe.
February 23, 2008 1:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
The 'moment' at the end of the last debate was not Hillary Clinton's defining moment.
The concilatory speech she must make after the TX & OH contests will be the most important moment of her public life (assuming Obama is clear winner of both contests). its such a rare opportunity
-to acknowledge Obama as the Dem nominee
-to congratulate the TX and OH electorate on their role in making history (energizing them moving forward by stressing THEIR stake in the Obama candidacy.
-to point the way toward a reproachment with the MI and FL delegations
I think the WORST thing that could happen for the Dems is for Hillary to narrowly win OH or TX.
February 23, 2008 10:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
Doesn't Hillary not only have to win Texas and Ohio, but win big enough to close the gap in delegates that Obama has created? If she wins both states, but only by a little, what difference would that make if their proportion of delegates is almost equal?
February 23, 2008 10:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
Not the least of the reasons I favor Obama is he embraces the 50-state strategy, and will in November.
We conceed nothing: McCain will have a fight on his habds everywhere, even here in reliably-red South Carolina.
NY/CA/MA/WI/IL are all in the bag. Evertwhere else, we're coming after the voters.
The GOP has been able to stay on cruise control in too many states--hurts us down-ticket, big time.
No longer. If Republicans are complacent about places like the "Solid South", so much the better. Sauce for the goose.
cheers,
DD
February 23, 2008 10:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
New Hampshire was a TIE, for God's sake. I remember the day after Iowa, I'd read a post that said, "no poll can be accurate, factoring in new issues in 5 days." The polls were ridiculous. It was the outlandish expectations that got the press; not the fact that Obama closed a 20-point lead and ended in a draw.
That being said, I will be interested in the polls after Hillary's "moment" that seems to have sucked all the coverage from Obama's excellent performance in that debate. It is astounding to me that Hillary looks human for the second time in her campaign and the press fawns. This is who Obama is every day. But I'm expecting her to stem her losses with women with her "plagiarized" speech. She has the nerve to say on her website today that no one owns "I'll be fine." So I guess that means no one owns "just words." And she gets away with it.
He absolutely has to adapt and adapt quickly. It will make him a better candidate, ultimately.
February 23, 2008 11:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
I agree. He has to win either Texas or Ohio, or be within 5 points.
February 23, 2008 11:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
Why do I feel uneasy about the 100% confidence expressed by many Obama supporters regarding Texas and Ohio? To me these contests seem far from sure things. Remember, in Wisconsin Obama was ahead about 5 points before the vote, and the Hillary folks were hoping for an upset. In Texas and Ohio the situation is just the reverse, and then some; it's Hillary who is ahead and many Obama folks now predicting an obvious momentum-driven win. To me such talk sounds imprudent at best if not an actual taunting of the Fates, who love to thump hubris on the head and have a rollicking good laugh. Politics is not physics, and the momentum which so many assume to be changing the poll numbers invisibly behind the scenes is not in fact a force of nature. To put it differently, the yellow line shown on the graph at pollster.com is not a rocket - as someone recently suggested elsewhere - but a graph line and nothing more. But if one insists on the rocket analogy, it might be well to remember that rockets unexpectedly go haywire in mid-sky and come crashing to earth. If Obama loses in Texas by so much as a single point, his campaign will be declared a rocket in arrest or worse. That's how irrational the political process is. Do the Obama optimists really think that New Hampshire is an unrepeatable fluke? Would someone please run me through the logic of this breezy optimism and put my mind at ease.
February 23, 2008 2:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
NH is the exception that proves the rule, perhaps.
However, it is important to recognize that NH is not analogous to TX or OH. The game has changed from rugby to tennis.
I'm not totally unsympathetic with WStarr's feelings... However, I do think he's asking the wrong questions. Wrong questions tend to render wrong anwsers.
I'm not an Senator Obama "optimist," just an observer of currents in the ever-moving river of
American politics.
February 23, 2008 3:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
General question. Does anyone have an idea why Obama is outperforming his poll numbers to such a degree? Not only is he doing better in each individual state as it comes up(forgetting CA and NH) but overall since Iowa, he's been down on average 10% in the national polls, but at the same time posting a plus 10% lead in the popular vote.
February 23, 2008 2:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
The answer is: When a candidate is bringing new voters into the process, they are not captured in pre-election polling.
Dissecting the NH "upset" suggests this explanation: Senator Obama deviated from his usual ground game... he just didn't put the time into NH because he errantly believed the pre-election polls. CA is a little more complicated and I'm not ready to explain that outcome until I've done more data mining.
February 23, 2008 3:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Supporting Obama is not unlike supporting a supporting a sports team that always seems to run behind until the very end of the game when they sprint ahead to win.
I no longer have finger nails.
It's nerve wracking!
February 23, 2008 3:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
I approach the current situation from the perspective of an American political historian who remembers (barely) FDR. Here are my conclusions, my reasoning will follow:
(1) Senator Obama will the presidential nominee of the Democratic Party in 2008;
(2) Senator Obama will defeat Senator McCain in November 2008, garnering 60% or better of the popular vote -- the electoral college vote will be closer to 53-55%.
(3) The election of November 2008 will render U.S. House Republicans irrelevant and, nearly, so too in the U.S. Senate.
(4) The GOP coming out of the 2008 elections will more closely resemble that of the Eisenhower GOP than that of Reagan/DeLay-- think Jacob Javits and Mary Chase Smith.
My reasoning: While historical parallels and analogies can be problematic, they are not altogether unuseful.
Today, we have so much polling data as to how Americans feel and what they are thinking that it is nearly overwhelming. While less voluminous in 1932, there is an ample body of similar polling data. The data from 1932 shows a distinct rejection of the Republican Party just as the data from 2006 and presently. In fact, "Republican" became and is essentially a dirty word in 1932, 2006, and currently.
The elections of 1932 & 2006 were "roll the dice" elections where the American electorate chose to take a chance rather than stick with the status quo. Current data shows this is even more the case in 2008.
The rise of the New Deal Democratic Party in 1932 was empowered by FDR bringing a whole new block of voters into the political process, subplanting what you might call the social conservatives of the day. We see, today, Senator Obama bringing in a new block of voters as well as the demoralization of GOP-styled social conservatives in the GOP.
In 1932, we witnessed the American electorate deciding that Republican politics and policies (they are very different things) did not work. We see the same thing from the American electorate in 2008.
For years, polling has shown there to be a significant part of GOP moderates who bemoan the loss of their party's claim to "the party of Lincoln" and the rise of the modern GOP's racist Southern Strategy. Current polling data suggests these moderates will vote for Obama in order to redeem themselves. Further, the data suggest these moderate Republicans do not fear not being listened to by Obama. Unfortunately, they do fear that from Senator Clinton.
Lastly, religious fundamentalists have finally realized they have been used by the GOP's Wall Street crowd. They will sit on their hands in November 2008 for the reasons (1) McCain is not one of them, and (2) disillusionment with the GOP generally.
Anyway, this is what I'm thinking in these politically exciting times.
February 23, 2008 3:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
From your keyboard to God's monitor!
February 23, 2008 4:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wow, pgbach. That was very interesting analysis. Thanks for it.
February 24, 2008 12:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks. That makes a lot of sense.
February 23, 2008 6:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
I feel much the same. Hate to tempt fate. As someone else wrote, it's like watching a sports team that always has to come from behind. Obama recognized as much today when he referred to himself as the challenger and HRC as the champ. The good news is that he and his organization understand the situation and do not appear to be relying on their presumed inevitability. It's a great team that apparently knows how to win and displays confidence but never seems overconfident.
February 23, 2008 10:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think the most interesting data and projections for Texas have been posted on the Burnt Orange Repoert who've done a superb job of not only explaining the labyrinthine Texas delegate and caucus process but they are there on the ground with some interesting observations.
http://www.burntorangereport.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=5110
February 24, 2008 11:05 AM | Reply | Permalink