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Poll: Hillary Up 8 Points In Texas Primary

A new poll of Texas shows Hillary Clinton with a lead over Barack Obama, but not a huge one in a state that has become part of her new firewall strategy along with Ohio, and where she'd need a big win in order to make the race for pledged delegates truly competitive again.

The Public Opinion Strategies (R) poll gives Hillary 49% to Obama's 41%. As in many other primary states, Hillary leads with women, Latinos and older voters, while Obama wins with men, African-Americans and younger voters. In short, neither candidate has really eaten into the other's base here, and this looks like it's going to be a close race.

Late Update: Two more polls for the Texas primary have come out today, as well. Rasmussen has Hillary up 54%-38%. American Research Group — whose track record this primary season has been less than stunning — puts Obama ahead 48%-42%.

Late Update: The poll was conducted by Public Opinion Strategies (R), not Texas-based pollster IVR.


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Don't listen to the poll gods. They've been wrong this campaign season.

Cube3u:

It's probably futile, but I'd encourage you to read my post on polling analysis.

Rasmussen Reports has just posted its own poll, which shows Clinton on top in Texas, 54-38%. That must have brought some smiles to the tired faces at Clinton HQ. The poll shows 32% may change their mind before election day, so there's a ways yet to go. And though I never like to post topline numbers without giving the crosstabs, it's Rasmussen, so what choice do I really have?

The bottom line remains that Obama has his work cut out for him over the next few weeks, but even wins by these margins won't be enough for Hillary to catch him in the pledged delegate count.

I also want to highlight some of the key findings in this poll:

Hillary's take of the Hispanic vote remains high, at 63%. Obama needs to do better here, and there's no evidence of recent inroads. On the other hand, the estimate of Obama's black support at 65% is (once again) artificially low.

Obama leads (46-42) among early voters; Hillary (51-40) among those who intend to vote on election day. That will make it easier for him to make up ground between now and then.

Hillary maintains significant leads among white women (59%) and households earning less than $50k (57%). Obama's strength among white men (50%) is a positive sign for him, but insufficient to compensate for these gaps. Hillary continues to beat him on empathy.

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FOTW: Maybe I missed it but when was this poll taken? The Obama camp clearly is hoping for bounce off of Tuesday's Potomac primary wins, hoping it would help in these key upcoming states. What is your assessment on whether that has happened or not--in WI, OH and PA, as well as Texas?

The poll cited in the post was in the field Feb 11-13; Rasmussen doesn't disclose dates, but it was probably taken entirely after the Potomac Primaries.

I think it's still too soon to tell what impact those primaries will have. Typically, the way it works is that the results drive the coverage, and the coverage drives opinions. That takes time. Retrospectively, you can see that a spike or a dip begins the morning after a vote. In the moment, though, those early responses are indistinguishable from statistical noise. Rasmussen's tracking shows an enormous Obama surge; Gallup shows him holding absolutely steady. Who's right? I haven't a clue. We'll just have to wait a while longer.

And now, an ARG poll finds Obama up, 48-42%.

In my darker moments, I wonder if ARG waits until some other pollsters have released results, and then announces whatever is most likely to garner a headline. But that's probably unfair; more Zogby's style, anyway. Maybe ARG sets up a dart board in its office, and decides things that way?

Seriously, though, it never pays to put much weight on ARG's numbers, because ARG refuses to disclose what lies behind the curtain. All this poll does is confirm what we already knew - Texas is very much in flux, and it's going to take time for a clear picture to emerge.

I have read it and your analysis is sound and I like your writing style and the way you think. I don't fault you for trying, Fly, but I really do believe it is a futile effort.

That said...I just don't think the primary polling has much of a predictive quality. But it can be used to create a fog--like the name recognition polls throughout last summer that appeared with regularity and then disappeared. These polls reinforced the Clinton "inevitability" theme. How did that work out?

With the IVR polls at pollster.com, the headline for this could have easily been "Hillary Slides 18 Points in Texas". Instead we have the theme that is apparently emerging of "Hillary Hanging Tough".

As I view it, this is all the polls are accomplishing right now--pushing a particular campaign narrative. And TPM apparently falls for that narrative--whether Clinton or Obama--with a depressing degree of predictability. :)

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cube3u, you wrote: "I just don't think the primary polling has much of a predictive quality. But it can be used to create a fog--like the name recognition polls throughout last summer that appeared with regularity and then disappeared. These polls reinforced the Clinton "inevitability" theme. How did that work out?"

Polls reinforced the Clinton inevitability theme way back when, when most people were not paying attention. That reflected name recognition, mostly. Now a lot of people are paying attention. Which doesn't mean the polls aren't sometimes wrong--see New Hampshire. And this is still a highly fluid race, where a lot is changing very quickly. But that said, if several polls with good track records are picking up a swing one way or the other following potentially major events, such as a sweep of 3 primaries by one candidate generating
a lot of press coverage, then that is something I for one would like to know about.

It's a given that campaigns will put the best face on whatever those results are, but the numbers are what they are. To me it is a reflection of the weak position Hillary's campaign is in that, in doing what all campaigns do and putting the best face on the situation, her campaign manager in order to boost up the morale of the troops, feels he has to resort to saying that Hillary would take a convention win even if that comes about as a result of superdelegates overcoming a Barama lead among delegates selected through the primaries and caucus processes. It's hard not to notice the reaction that has prompted in the media and blogosphere.

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Also, of course, there's the Heisenberg effect. You change the results by measuring (and reporting) it.

Look, AD, it's fun to look at polls. I won't deny that. So is reading tea leaves.

Polls from different outfits can show macro trends. Even then, these outfits need to have the same methdologies and screening techniques--they don't.

I'll repeat what I said. IVR has been polling in Texas for a while; they are one outfit with one methodology and the same screening technique; so a broad trend can be identified. And that trend is that Hillary has been nose-diving.

Have fun with them. Be skeptical.

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"Even then, these outfits need to have the same methdologies and screening techniques--they don't."

Better, don't you think, for there to be different defensible methodologies and screening techniques as between different pollsters, because there are different defensible ways of polling. If different polls using different defensible, but consistently applied, methodologies and screening techniques show a clear, strong trend, there is a pretty good chance that that reflects some "real" shift in public sentiment. Even if it may be fleeting.

Sure. But Polling Firm A needs more than one poll; as does Polling Firm B; and so on. That gives you macro-trends which should show up in spite of the methodologies and screenings.

These are difficult to find in Texas right now. In a couple of weeks, I imagine we'll have enough to discern any macro trends.

Right now, tea leaves are more interesting and just as predictive.

YES WE CAN!

49 to 41, assuming undecideds break in relative proportion, is 54% to 46% (out of 100%).

Texas has 193 pledged delegates; assuming they are distributed in roughly the same proportion as the vote, that's 105 to 88, or a 17 delegate net gain for Clinton.

Obviously, both of those assumptions are oversimplistic, but...

Obama currently has an 83 delegate lead, including supers, and a 140 delegate lead among pledged delegates.

I think she's hoping for a lot more than 49-41.

I should say that those current delegate counts are according to CBS. The news outlets all have varying counts, but it's somewhere in that ballpark.

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Check out this Kos diary:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/2/15/8356/43316/373/457279

It suggests that given gerrymandering in Texas, this poll, despite showing a Clinton lead, would result in a net GAIN of 6 delegates for Obama.

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Of course, who cares about the actual popular vote, and the will of the people? What really matters to Obama supporters is being able to rely on rules that manage to subvert the popular will. That's why they love caucuses so much, and caucuses love them.

So, again, if Obama "wins" Texas in pledged delegates, even if he loses the popular vote by, say, 8%, why should anyone -- especially the superdelegates -- care about pledged delegates?

I do not know that this is really about the primary/caucus distinction. The rule which really favors Obama is that the delegates are apportioned to congressional districts in proportion to the Kerry votes cast in those districts in 2004. Obama is ahead in districts which turned out in a big way for Kerry (despite his inevitable loss in TX to GWB) while Clinton is winning in districts which failed to turn out many Kerry votes.

Is this a "subversion of the popular will"? Maybe; I suppose that it depends upon your perspective. That is sort of a vacuous complaint, however. The rules were in place before either candidate started running for the presidency. The business of winning the election is the business of scoring more "points" within the pre-established framework of rules governing the "game." If Clinton fails to do that then she will have lost fair and square, futile grousing about "the will of the people" notwithstanding. The "people" of the democratic party in TX willed to establish this system months ago. If they did not want delegates apportioned in this fashion, the time to protest the arrangement was then, not now.

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frankly, why are you talking about "the popular vote"? Obama has a lead on (1) the popular vote, (2) the pledged delegates, (3) the pledged + superdelegates, and (4) the number of victories. So now, in addition to that, it appears that artificial gerrymandering may also benefit him.

If you are still trying to question the legitimacy of Obama's success, you need to find a new metric for success.

Wonderful news for Clinton. At least Texan Democrats aren't dumb enough to swept along with the so-called media driven 'momentum'. Either that or Obama's 'speeches' will start to ring hollow and people will start expecting specific policies instead of inspirational rhetoric.

If Ms. Clinton has maintained her lead after latest round of primaries, she should hold on, if not increase it.

GO CLINTON GO!

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Oh, c'mon, this complaint is just not convincing. TPM covered Obama's substantive speech on the economy and his plans at the GM plant in Wisconsin this week.

Yes! Solutions not Speeches! Unless of course you're Bill Clinton who can give $300,000 speeches and then finance his wife's campaign. So I guess speeches CAN be part of the solution? I'm confused...

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I'm not sure how a shrinking lead can be considered good news for Clinton, unless the good news is that the lead isn't completely gone yet!

Come on. Change Clinton to Obama and you could have written the same post between New Hampshire and Nevada.

Why don't you go to Obama's website, http://www.barackobama.com/issues, study what he says, and then come back and talk to us. Or are you too busy downloading all the talking points from MarkPenn.com?

These claims that Obama lacks substance are fairly vacuous. A stump speech is a lousy place to detail every nuance of your health care plan. But those thirsting for detail can download Obama's policy positions from his web site.

Here's a 64 pager that gives an overview of Obama's policy positions:
http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/ObamaBlueprintForChange.pdf

Here's a 15 pager on his health care plan:
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/pdf/HealthCareFullPlan.pdf

Here's an 11 pager on his energy policy:
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/pdf/EnergyFactSheet.pdf

That's the great thing about Obama. You get policy specifics and inspirational rhetoric all in the same package.

Yes, but because of the allocation of delegates to districts which had higher voter turnout in the last two contests (hint: those are not heavily Hispanic), and the caucus system, Obama can come out on top in terms of delegates.

An essential read for understanding Texas is The Burnt Orange Report: http://www.burntorangereport.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=4972

Good news. That's a margin that is surmountable in 2-1/2 weeks.

Ahh, ignorance is bliss huh? Gotta love these Hillbots and their total disconnect with reality.

"Hillary is only ahead by 8 points in her big "comeback" firewall state"

"This is GREAT news for Hillary! Soon she'll be stomping Obama 2-1 nationally!! She'll have 54 states to Obama's 23!!!"

Okay, I exaggerated a bit.

Barely though.

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Let's be fair—we all have our blind spots. I, for one, don't like the term Hillbots any more than I like the cultist claim that a certain (hopefully small) group of Hillary supporters toss around.

He hasn't even started campaigning in Texas, and he has a big endorsement in Texas which should give him a boost. Three weeks off, he could potentially damn near tie her, potentially. Granted all he has to do though is get within maybe 15% and she is done. Hell, even if he gets less than that she is still done.

Forget about tying her. We're in it to win it. There are a lot of independents in Texas(my home state) who can't stand the Clintons. The crossover vote should be very interesting.

Did you know that Hillary Clinton's biggest donors include Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Citigroup, Lehman Brothers, and JP Morgan Chase & Co. -- the biggest corporate banking / subprime loan companies out there?

Did you know that Hillary Clinton's plan for bailing out Americans with subprime loans also bails out the corporate bankers who gave them the loans, who won't have to deal with getting 50 cents on the dollar in expensive foreclosure proceedings?

Did you know her plan not only bails out families who own only one home, as Barack Obama's plan does, but also bails out wealthy real estate speculators who own more than one home, who used subprime loans to make money flipping houses?

Did you know that her plan locks real estate speculators in with low interest rates, but will lead to higher interest rates for all new homebuyers, putting even more money into the pockets of corporate bankers?

Hillary Clinton is a corporate banker's best friend!

Will you stop with this "Hillbots" crap? It's just as annoying as the "cult of Obama" stuff. Seriously, please. Minus a few idiots, we can at least try to remain civil.

Apologies. I try to limit it, but sometimes it just slips out out of frustration. The Orwellian disconnect with reality that [hardcore Hillary supporters] have just blows my mind. I'm often at a loss for words at the ignorance.

I mean seriously, she is relying on Texas as a firewall, her last chance basically for a big win, and Obama is within striking distance in this poll, which if it is in any way accurate, means Hillary is dead in the water, and her supporters come back and say this is great for Hillary, blah blah blah. Is this for real?? I mean I know there are committed Obama supporters out there, but I never hear them saying ridiculous crap like that. I know if the roles were reversed and I saw Hillary coming up on Obama like that, and if Obama HAD to win Texas by a huge margin to stay in the race, I'd be like, "OH SHIT!!!" I wouldn't try to pretend it was good news, or somehow showed my person kicking ass. All I'm saying is they are typically ridiculously wrong in many things they say, and not just wrong, straight up backwards, 180 degrees wrong, like we live in opposite land.

So I apologize for dropping the "Hillbot", but I'm running out of other words to capture the amazing lemmingness of their view or reality.

I suppose Hillzombies is also uncouth?

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As is HillBillies, cult of Hillary, and Shillaries. What? No, I did not enjoy posting that list!

I am a Senator Obama supporter, and I feel that Senator Clinton supporters is what we should refer to them as.

By NEDRA PICKLER, Associated Press Writer Fri Feb 15, 5:42 AM ET

MILWAUKEE - Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton desperately wants meaningless wins in Florida and Michigan to turn into votes she can count on. It won't be easy with the Democratic National Committee rules standing in her way.


The DNC is refusing to back down from the tough sanctions it imposed on the two states, which held early contests in violation of party rules. They have been stripped of all their delegates to the national convention in August where either Clinton or rival Barack Obama will be nominated for president.

The DNC has offered Florida and Michigan a couple ways out in compliance with party rules. First, they could hold second nominating contests, but Democratic leaders in both states reject that idea. Or they can appeal to the DNC's credentials committee, a 186-member body that usually operates in obscurity and has a complicated membership and rules process that will require deft maneuvering in this divided campaign.

Just like the some-800 superdelegates, this committee could hold the cards in helping decide the Democratic nominee if the race stays close.

Clinton's campaign insists the delegates should be seated in accordance with more than 2 million votes cast in the two states last month.

"I think that the people of Michigan and Florida spoke in a very convincing way, that they want their voices and their votes to be heard," Clinton told reporters. "The turnout in both places was record-breaking and I think that that should be respected."

Clinton did not object to the DNC stripping the states of their delegates when the decision was made last year. Some of her backers were on the committee that made the decision to do so and actively supported it.

"Now, when they believe it serves their political interests, they're trying to rewrite the rules," Obama campaign manager David Plouffe said in a call with reporters.

As of Thursday, the delegate count stood at 1,276 for Obama and 1,220 for Clinton. If the DNC were to award Michigan and Florida's 313 delegates based on the vote in their primaries, she would be ahead because she won both states.

That would be unfair, Obama's campaign says, because the candidates had promised not to compete in those renegade states.

Clinton's operatives want DNC chairman Howard Dean to come up with a resolution, but Dean is staying out of the fight for now. Dean spokesman Karen Finney said Florida and Michigan still have a choice to follow the rules.

"At this point, there are still more than 1,000 pledged delegates to be determined and 33 percent of our party has yet to have the opportunity to have their voices heard, so it would be premature to speculate," Finney said. Dean declined an interview request.

Most of the credentials committee members will be appointed by the Clinton and Obama campaigns, depending on how they perform in nominating contests across the country, with Dean having already named 25. Although Obama has won more contests so far, Clinton has won most of the larger states — and larger states get more seats. So there's the potential for the committee to be closely divided if the race stays tight.

The credential committee would meet in July or August, and its decision would be in the form of a recommendation to all the delegates at the convention. They have a range of options to consider, including recommending reinstatement of all or some of the delegates divided any way they see fit between Obama and Clinton. The recommendation would become the first order of business at the convention on Aug. 25.

One Clinton adviser, speaking on a condition of anonymity, said there are no legal options to pursue in courts, which give parties wide latitude in crafting their rules.

The Clinton adviser suggested a compromise where perhaps the Michigan delegates could be split evenly among the two since Obama's name wasn't even on the ballot there. But the Florida delegates should be bound by the primary results, the adviser argued, because Obama's name was on the ballot in that case. The Illinois senator didn't have the option of removing it like he did in Michigan.

That's a compromise that the Obama campaign would be unlikely to accept without a fight. And Florida Sen. Bill Nelson, who has been leading the fight to get his state's delegates reinstated and is backing Clinton, said he doesn't think it will matter. He suggested he would just like to see the delegates seated, even if they aren't favoring Clinton.

He said he is encouraging the DNC to at least declare that the Florida delegates will be seated regardless of who they are awarded to so at least they can make their travel plans to go to Denver.

"The likelihood is one way or another we're going to know the nominee by late June at the latest, in which case it will be then moot about who the delegation is pledged to and all of that," Nelson said.

Michigan and Florida had moved up their dates to gain prominence in the presidential selection process, but ironically they would be more relevant if they would have stayed put. Florida was originally scheduled to vote March 4 and Michigan on March 9, and both would no doubt have been pivotal in the hotly contested race between Clinton and Obama.

___

Associated Press writers Kathy Barks Hoffman in Lansing, Mich., Brendan Farrington in Tallahassee, Fla., and Matt Apuzzo in Washington contributed to this report.

Huh. I would've expected a much bigger lead given the fact Obama has done no campaigning down there. Can't be welcome news in the Clinton camp.

http://www.pollster.com/08-TX-Dem-Pres-Primary.php

Track the trend of the ITV polls here. The gap is closing. Not that Hillary's support is dropping, but Obama is slowly rising. Looks like he's going to have to cut into her base if he wants to win TX.

IVR, not ITV, sorry

Do the math. All Senator Obama has to do is to take away four points from Hillary and they are tied. Makes that 8 point lead not all that big, doesn't it!

This is really good news for Obama, who was behind by 10% in the last Texas poll, and who hasn't even started campaigning in the state.

Obama's grassroots efforts are very strong though, especially in Dallas and Austin. Lots of Texans are looking at Hillary Clinton's sweep through southern Texas as pandering to the "pro-illegal immigration" Mexican-American community, while ignoring the needs of ordinary Texans, so I think her tactics in the state are cutting both ways.

For every Mexican-American vote she gains, it wouldn't surprise me if she loses half a vote from somebody else who resents such politics that threaten local jobs in the middle of a recession.

davidh above is absolutely correct about the great work BOR is doing explaining the Texas delegate selection process and how delegates are awarded based on voter turnout in past elections.

Poor turnout the past few years is going to come back to bite the Texas Democrat delegate selection process big time this election.

In 2006, the turnout for the primaries was abysmal statewide, and especially in my county. In my county, we have had school bond and city charter amendment elections PASS with just a five (5) five percent voter participation.

Because of this, our county's delegate allotment for the national convention has shrunk from, I think 4 or 5 in 2004 to 3 this year. That is a fairly major drop.

But what it means is, you don't have to make a lot of effort for your candidate to win in the caucus part of our delegate selection. Just a few, well-informed and prepared people can tip things in your candidate's direction at the precinct and county level.

It probably didn't help that the 2006 gubernatorial race in TX included two Independent candidates: Kinky Friedman and Carole Keeton Strayhorn. An Independent candidate has to get a certain # of petition signatures in order to get on the ballot, but it's for the election, not the primary. In other words, the primary had just the Dem and Rep candidates on the ballot. A lot of people "saved" their vote so that they could sign the petition for the Independent candidate of their choice. But, these petition signatures (both candidates we're well over the # needed) do not translate into convention delegates for a national election. It would be interesting to see how the petition numbers break down. An area with few delegates now might actually have a greater number of Independents. I would hate to be a pollster trying to figure out the TX numbers for either Clinton or Obama.

Oh yes, the so-called 'cross over' voters should 'help' Obama. Dream on. In other words, Republicans who pretend to be 'intrigued' by Obama but whose real interest is to split the Democratic party in two. Apparently Romney's win in Michigan was partially due to crossover Democrats who wanted to sink McCain. Look where Romney is now.

You may be surprised to learn that you can't reach 50% in any election without persuading either independents or members of the other party to vote for you. Then again Hillary's 2-state strategy has been so awesome in the primaries that it just might work in the general. So you may be right!

Keep your tinfoil hat on at all times. Those diabolical republican mind control rays can still reach you over there in France.

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How many Republicans do you personally know? This "truthiness" that you're using isn't backed up by any actual facts. I've talked to plenty (about 20) Republicans from Washington, Indiana, Georgia, Florida, and Virginia, and when they joke about crossing party lines to sabotage the Democrats, they mention Hillary as the one they'd vote for, because they think she's the easier one to beat. Of course, they then usually consider the possibility that she could actually win the general election and reconsider that idea.

In summary, I see no evidence that Obama would be easier for the Republicans to beat than Hillary except for the common sense ("truthiness") of a few Hillary supporters.

Did you know that Hillary Clinton's plan for bailing out Americans with subprime loans also bails out the corporate bankers who gave them the loans, who won't have to deal with getting 50 cents on the dollar in expensive foreclosure proceedings?

C'mon, markkraft, this type of zero-sum politics is EXACTLY what Obama is trying to transcend. I'm not a Hillary supporter (unless she wins the nomination), but you can't throw the blame for the sub-prime mess entirely at the banks' feet. I agree that helping the most direly affected should be the first priority. But if a solution helps all those affected, what's wrong with that? Most people would call that a BETTER solution to the problem.

This is just more bad news for Hillary.
Now maybe if she was up 48%...
But we've seen the pattern and she has nowhere to go but down.

A loss of Texas for HRC means the nomination battle is over.
When she does lose Texas I hope that we see her carry on.
Not for herself but for the remaining voters.
Of course she might want to spare herself further heartache even though she needs to recoup her loan to her campaign.
Nah, she'll fight on.

And of course, HRC having lost Texas, all the worry about FL and MI and super delegates will evaporate. Thank god for that!
FL and MI will get seated, there will be a first split vote at the convention for form's sake, then a rapid second vote and unanimous coronation of Barak Hussein Obama as the third Dem presidential nominee in a row to go down to defeat in the GE.
Oh well.

At least Mark Penn will finally be dragged from his coffin, into the daylight, and a stake driven through his shriveled black heart.
So as an HRC fan I've got one thing to look forward too!

markkraft said:

"Did you know that Hillary Clinton's biggest donors include Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Citigroup, Lehman Brothers, and JP Morgan Chase & Co. -- the biggest corporate banking / subprime loan companies out there?"

In the interests of accuracy, let me make the following addition to this statement:

And did you know that the same companies dominate the list of top ten corporate donors to Senator Obama's campaign?

So, markkraft - Do you stand by the implications of the rest of your slanted post as also applying applied to Obama for these same reasons?

Google "open secrets" to verify my information re corporate contributions.

Actually, living overseas gives me a certain distance from the American media and that actually helps one look more objectively at the evolution of the whole process of choosing a candidate. If you have never lived overseas, it's hard to understand how one's perception of one's own country changes.

It should be said that in general candidates of 'center-right' parties in France and Germany are the equivalent of (what's left of) the American left. Both Clinton and Obama would be seem as moderate to conservative in what they propose. The overwhelming majority of Americans I know living in Paris are, of course, Democrats. Most Europeans (especially the British) consider Americans to be politically very naive. With the help of Moveon and CNN, Obama just might walk away with the Democratic nomination -- which, of course, would be the Republican's (corporate America's) dream. All of this comedy about McCain not being conservative enough...is just that. All this comedy about 'Hiliary's tear' or 'Obama not shaking her hand.' is seen as ridiculous...

Obama is seen as just too inexperienced... especially when put up against someone like McCain (with 28 years of experience to reassure nervous Americans who, as much as pretend to want change...deep down are fearful of it). McCain versus Obama is a no brainer. McCain versus Clinton (who offers a combination of change with familiarity) would be close...but still possible. I don't think that a lot of young people (even after two botched elections) how DIFFICULT it will be to get the deeply entrenched Republicans out of office. You don't need a crystal ball or a Rasmussen (TOTALLY unreliable) poll to see this.

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You talk about how you have a certain distance from American media (so do I as I don't watch TV), you admit that you're mostly surrounded by Democrats, but then you claim to understand how Republicans think. Why is that?

I've actually talked to Republicans from several regions of the United States, and none of the ones I've talked to think Obama would be easier to beat than Clinton. Rather, they believe that Clinton would be easier to beat than Obama.

If you're going to use logic to determine how the American public is going to vote, then I'm guessing you don't know the American public very well (I'll also avoid, for now, pointing out the flaws in your logic).

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democratinFrance, I don't disagree with what you say, comparing center-right politicians from Europe to "left" candidates from America. I think it's "naive" to suggest that America is more politically naive than Europe, simply because Europe is perceived to have more "experience" with politics. For one thing, Europe doesn't have more experience with representative democracy than the U.S. For another thing, no European country has the experience of governing a state with unprecedented levels of military might and economic prowess. (Both these factors may be on the wane in the U.S., but that is beside the point.) The U.S. also has a diversity of population the likes of which has never been seen in Europe. My point is, politics in the U.S. is a very different animal than politics in Europe.

Perhaps because you are in France, you have not had the opportunity to experience the groundswell of enthusiasm for Obama first hand. Regardless, I do hope at least that you support Obama when he is declared the nominee. And I hope you have the honesty to admit that you were wrong, when he is elected President.

I won't go so far as to contest any beliefs you will still have that Obama is the European equivalent of as "center right" politician. But a journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step.

- Sound of crickets chirping -

markkraft? Are you here?

I cannot help but think that with the Clinton campaign's emphasis on the do or die nature of March 4th, they lose if any story that Wednesday suggests a split decision.

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Right, because the Clinton campaign has never changed their story about what's important in this campaign. Never.

Except when it suits them.

Hillary declared that Obama's Red State Victories are meaningless, but if she wins Texas and Ohio they will mean everything. When was the last time a Democratic Presidential nominee carried Texas and Ohio in a Presidential Election!

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I think you just might need to adjust your sarcasm-meter. ;)

HRC loses if she loses March 4th. She loses if she only squeaks by.
It is true that the msm and Oba fans will slaughter her in either case but forget that.
The simple math kills her.
Less than blowout wins (20 - 25%, an impossibility in Texas if not everywhere) and she loses the delegate count badly.
Once that happens she loses the nomination. Period.
All the blah blah bah fear mongering about the Clinton "machine" stealing the nomination through super delegates is just that, mongering. Fills the primary in between times.
While it may be true that a majority of super delegates have greater obligations to HRC than Obama their greatest obligation is to their own survival and the Dem "establishment" long ago proved their willingness to kick the Clinton's if politically expedient.


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JTHB, that's such a limited understanding of the situation. It would be more accurate to say that Hillary wins if Texas is a blow-out, like it will be. But if Hillary wins be only a small margin, it's still a Hillary victory. In fact, if Hillary loses by only a small margin, she can still claim victory. And if Obama wins by huge numbers, it can only be declared a Clinton victory, because Texas is full of impressionable elites and the apportionment system is unfair because of Republican gerrymandering, and it doesn't count anyway because it's partly a caucus.

So you see, Hillary's got a win-win-win-win situation in Texas--Mark Penn told me so. And with four wins all in one, Hillary will be back on top of this race in no time. But she'll still be the underdog. Even though her nomination is inevitable. Trust me.

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Here's a really good breakdown of the Texas numbers (via AmericaBlog), which seem to report that even though Clinton is ahead by 8 right now, Obama could gain more delegates than she would based on the sub-samples and districting:

http://www.burntorangereport.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=4972

McCain and Huck are in a tight race as well - that should be interesting to watch!

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Funny how proud you are that the bizarre rules of delegate selection should manage to subvert the clear expression of the popular will.

But you're an Obama supporter -- who can be surprised?

Well, yes that is one way to look at it - "bizzare rules subvert the popular will." On the other hand, it is not as if the rules of this election were forced on the democratic party in TX by thugs with guns to the heads of every voter's grandmother. The democrats of Texas chose these rules, so in a very real sense the rules themselves are the will of the people (or at least the democrats) of Texas. They serve to reward folks who vote for the democratic nominee in the general election. It is hard for me to see why it is a bad thing to reward those who work hard to nudge TX back into the blue column. Your complaint sounds rather vacuous to my ears (although this might simply be a testament to the "Kool-aid" that I have supposedly drunk).

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Huh? Where in the world did you get "proud" from my post? Where did I say I was proud of Texas' bizarre way of selecting delegates? And how did you extrapolate from my post that I was an Obama supporter (FYI, I was an staunch Edwards supporter who's leaning Obama but is not ruling out Hillary yet). Take a step back, take a deep breath, and stop seeing conspiracies in every comment that seems to rain on your Hillary parade.

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Huh? Where in the world did you get "proud" from my post? Where did I say I was proud of Texas' bizarre way of selecting delegates? And how did you extrapolate from my post that I was an Obama supporter (FYI, I was an staunch Edwards supporter who's leaning Obama but is not ruling out Hillary yet). Take a step back, take a deep breath, and stop seeing conspiracies in every comment that seems to rain on your Hillary parade.

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You know, while this ongoing buffoon Josh Marshall does nothing but trash the Clinton campaign, most especially Mark Penn, Penn's statement that Obama hasn't won the "significant" states outside of his home state is pretty fair.

Go to the Wikipedia entry listing state populations.

Of the top 8 states, Obama has won only his home state. Hillary has a very good prospect, if polls are to be believed, of winning the other 7, and mostly by very substantial margins (Of course, both MI and FL are included in this calculation -- being a believer in genuine democracy and in not disenfranchising millions of voters, I think it's fair to do so. People who have a pronounced distaste for actual democracy will no doubt beg to differ.) Taken together, those 8 states comprise 47.3% of the entire population of the US. What does it say that Obama can't win any of those states outside of his home state?

Moreover, if you add to the mix the 9 smaller states that Clinton has already won, and subtract out Illinois, then Clinton will have won states that, taken together, comprise 56% of the population (a number that would of course go up if she wins further small states).

Now this last calculation importantly assumes that Clinton wins Ohio, Texas, and Pennsylvania. Certainly she's been ahead in those states in the polls -- whether that holds up no one knows.

But assuming she wins all those states, the argument that Mark Penn is making is in fact very powerful. Not only does it suggest that she is a better candidate for general election, but it also goes a good distance to argue the point that she is the candidate who is the clearest expression of the popular will.

Of course one can hardly expect that the limited minds at TPM can see the force of this argument. But dumb is dumb; happily, smarter people do exist, and will make the case over the smallish heads of the TPMs of the world.

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Actually, both calculations make that assumption. Of the 8 states you mention, Hillary has won 5 of them. Impressive, yes, but in the 3 states where Obama actually campaigned, she won them by relatively small margins. How small? Small enough that Obama has won more of the popular vote so far than she has despite this showing. That is the flip side to your argument.

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Whoops. I mean she's won 4 of them (including Florida and Michigan, where they weren't allowed to campaign), including her home state. I also find it interesting that you chose 8 as your magic number. Why not 10 or 5? 8 seems kind of arbitrary… Could it be because Obama won #9 (Georgia) and #10 (North Carolina)? Nah, that'd be might cynical of me to suggest that! ;)

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Adding Georgia and NC don't change the fundamental calculation I presented: if Clinton wins TX, OH, and PA, then the top 8 states represent 47.3% of the population. What does it say about the breadth of Obama's appeal if you have to go down to 9th place to find a state outside of his home state that he has won? And if you add in the smaller states Hillary has already won, and subtract out IL, she will have won states comprising 56% of the population.

Why this is a "stupid" argument from Mark Penn is something you might ask Josh Marshall. I'm sure you'll get some nice-sounding, incoherent garbage out of his mouth.

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If.

That said, I'll play your game. What percentage of that 47.3% do you project she'll carry? 55%? If so, that comes out to 26% of the total (primary voting) populace. Not exactly a mandate.

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Again, you are simply forgetting the obvious fact: the results in TX (2nd largest state), PA (6th largest) and OH (7th largest), have not yet been factored in. At this point, Hillary has pretty significant leads in the polls in all those states, mostly in the double digits. No one knows how this will turn out, of course, but if she in fact wins in numbers anything like the polls suggest, then I don't see how she doesn't recapture the lead.

Really, all you're doing now is acting as if the current snapshot of the race is how it will all turn out in the end. Yet everyone knew that this stretch would be a very good one for Obama, and that Clinton's strength would be Mar 4 and beyond.

I'm assuming that the "firewall" of TX, OH, and PA holds, and firmly. Clinton has pretty much staked her campaign on success there. My point is that if the firewall holds up, then Penn's argument is quite powerful, despite the irrational caterwauling of Josh Marshall.

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That's a mighty big assumption. I don't think she'll win all 3, but I'm assuming nothing.

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I can only go by the polls. The polls seem to show that Hillary is ahead in all three states, in OH and PA by substantial margins. I personally doubt that the vote is going to be much affected by "momentum", though one never knows.

We'll see how it turns out.

But my basic overarching point is that Marshall's derision of Penn's argument as "stupid" is itself stupid in the extreme. The Clinton campaign has staked her candidacy on winning these three states. I'm pointing out why it makes perfect sense to do so.

Penn's statement that Obama hasn't won the "significant" states outside of his home state is pretty fair.

Fair as in "accurate"? Sure, in that sense it is "fair." It is also pointless. A yellow dog could win CA, MA, NJ and NY in the general election if s/he had the democratic nomination. The fact that Obama did not win these states in the primaries does not indicate that he would have trouble carrying them in Nov. The business of winning the electoral college is not the business of carrying NY by a margin of 10% vs 20%, because NY's electoral votes are not apportioned proportionally (like it's primary delegates), but rather are awarded winner-take-all. Rather, the business of winning the electoral college is the business of winning important swing states (even if only by the narrowest of margins). So, is Clinton's ability to carry MA by a larger margin than Obama would worth more than Obama's potential to flip CO into the blue column? Obviously not. Penn's argument is totally fatuous, because it calls into doubt matters which really are beyond doubt, while simultaneously considering as secure matters which are entirely dubious (does her ability to win OH in the primary really equal her ability to carry it in the GE? tell that to President Gore).

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Have you forgotten that FL (4th largest), PA (6th largest), OH (7th largest), MI (8th largest) have always been essential swing states in the general election? Given that these are winner take all, don't you think getting the strongest candidate for those states is critical to electability?

By my guess, the largest genuine "swing" state that Obama has already won might be Virginia (12th largest), and even that is REALLY stretching the potential for Virginia to swing to a Democrat in a Presidential election. I repeat: you have to go all the way down to the 12th largest.

Or is all this just another "fatuous" observation, by your lights?

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Of the swing states you mention, who do you think scored best among the actual swing voters?

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Except that you don't take into account the very real possibility that the so-called Reagan Democrats could easily become McCain Democrats if they perceive the Democratic nominee as being, say, soft on issues of national security (the reason these Democrats flocked to Reagan back in the day), and generally too liberal.

Obama's big 2002 speech will likely be made to come back to haunt him. While it's a big winner among Democrats, McCain will be able to point out that what Obama was arguing was that, though Obama admitted that he thought Saddam had WMDs, he wouldn't have even used the threat of military power to force Saddam to admit inspectors and disarm. This will allow McCain to depict Obama as soft on issues of national security.

And there's also the awkward fact that in one well known publication, Obama has been singled out as the most liberal Senator in the US Senate -- a point McCain has already raised. I think we can expect a lot more of same.

And not only do I expect that when McCain makes these arguments a good number of Reagan Democrats would desert Obama, I also expect that a very good number of independents will turn against him.

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Good points, but I think all of that is canceled out by two factors: (1) Obama's charisma (yes, it matters), and (2) Hillary's negatives.

For extremely irrational reasons (but who has ever claimed the electorate is rational?), there is a huge hatred of Clinton, and enough of that extends to independents and otherwise moderate Republicans that she's not pulling the swing voters. So, while you make a good argument about why Hillary should pull the swing voters, regular polls and exit polls both show that Obama is pulling the swing voters (a common lament, you'll find, among many Clinton supporters who want closed primaries).

Have you forgotten that FL (4th largest), PA (6th largest), OH (7th largest), MI (8th largest) have always been essential swing states in the general election? Given that these are winner take all, don't you think getting the strongest candidate for those states is critical to electability?

Definitely not. If you (or Mr Penn) want to premise an argument on the question of who is more likely to win these states in a GE contest, I think that would be a much stronger argument than Mr Penn's present (and fatuous) "large states" argument. That is a clunker, as I said before, because it ignores the reality that many of those large states are not really up for grabs regardless of whom we nominate.

If you want to concentrate on swing states (a much sounder strategy) I would have to say that I have dim hopes of either democrat taking FL. The head-to-head match-up polls show McCain beating each of the two democrats by the same margin in that state. The fact that she could win the primary there really proves nothing - somebody has to win the democratic primary, but Kerry won down there in the primary of 2000 and still lost it in the GE. I just cannot forsee a plausible scenario wherein either democrat carries a single southern state (in which respect I agree with you about VA).

The current polls show OH a dead heat in this respect. In head-to-head match-ups, Obama beats McCain by 1 point and Clinton beats McCain by 2, which is to say that the race is a statistical tie regardless of the democrat in the race.

In PA, you have a much stronger case - there Obama ekes out a 1 point victory over McCain while Clinton bests McCain by 6 points. In other words, it would appear (in a grossly preliminary first-order estimate) that either candidate could win there, but at least at present our chances in PA are stronger with Clinton.

In MO McCain beats both democrats by narrow margins (1 pt over Clinton, 2 pts over Obama). That said, my sense as a Missourian is that opposition to Clinton is a lot harder than opposition to Obama, so I could see Obama turning that around, while I could not see Clinton doing the same (for whatever little my own personal on-the-ground sense is worth).

In NH Obama beats McCain by a large margin (13 pts), while Clinton barely beats McCain (2 pts). In CO Obama beats McCain by 7 pts while McCain beats Clinton by 14. In IN and KY McCain beats both democrats by comfortable leads. In summary the swing states present a very mixed picture. My take-away impression is that Obama is the stronger candidate because Clinton merely retains the states which we won in 2004 (not enough) while Obama puts new states in play. That said, that impression only holds true if Obama can retain PA, which is a shakier assertion (assuming that the present results are worthwhile) than it would be if Clinton were the nominee.

Whoops. In case it was not clear (and I am sure that it was not) by "definitely not" was a response to Frankly0's question "have you forgotten...", not to the question "don't you think..." Sorry about the confusion there.

Hey, if Josh is a buffoon, why do you come to the site? Go to MyDD or Hillaryis44 where they will spin everything exactly the way you like it? Honestly.

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I consider it my duty to bring reality to those who appear to be most in need of it.

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frankly0, you're really going to endear yourself to the liberal democrats on this site by bashing Josh. Good luck winning converts to Hillary with that kind of argument.

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After all the gratuitous bashing that Josh has unleashed to Clinton, the problem is that I, as a mere commenter, am antagonizing other Democrats?

Jesus, you guys really have zero sense of perspective, do you?

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Dem in france: "Oh yes, the so-called 'cross over' voters should 'help' Obama. Dream on. In other words, Republicans who pretend to be 'intrigued' by Obama but whose real interest is to split the Democratic party in two. Apparently Romney's win in Michigan was partially due to crossover Democrats who wanted to sink McCain."

Mich is meaningless. Dem primary votes were already declared null so no doubt some Dems crossed to mess with the Repubs. But there has been consistent crossover in othe caucauses and primaries of Independent and Repubs voters crossing over for Obama. Everyone here knows that - I'm surprised you don't since it's been consitently noted in news reports. That's one of the reasons he's won so many more states than Hillary. Texas is an open primary and Obama will certainly benefit from that.

As for your other post about overseas: I know an awful lot of Americans living abroad - Italy, UK, Israel, France, Switzerland - most of them are already pro-Obama and very excited. I wouldn't say that's a scientific analysis, just I think your view is your view, not necessarily representative of most ex-pats.

Senator Obama leads in the popular vote tally of all those states that have voted so far. One person one vote, and more people have voted for Senator Obama than Senator Clinton.

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Let's see what the popular vote looks like when you factor the future results in TX (2nd largest state), PA (6th largest) and OH (7th largest), shall we? You know, before you start crowing too much?

And let's not forget about FL and MI either, shall we? I know you probably don't like voters very much, but we have to pay some passing respect to democracy, and try not to disenfranchise voters, OK?

What an exciting time to be alive never have I seen anything like this.According to reports the IRON B______ needs to win Texas and Ohio by 20% or more to win this thing and right now I don`t see that happening.Only 8 down in Texas and her lead is shrinking by the day in Ohio.Her Firewall fails here.BYE BYE Hillary!!!

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Awesome news, 8% and over 2 weeks to go to the primary. I would say that obama may take texas. Holy cow. Even if he doesn't she had to win texas by 20% or more and that doesn't appear possible. A net gain of 10 or 20 delegates for her doesn't mean squat.

I live in Houston and here is how the voting is breaking down in my area with friends/family/co-workers:

Friends(2) - Jamaicans - Clinton, White - Obama.

My Wife - Venezuelan and most of her fellow expats - Clinton.

Family - African American and White - Split 50/50 Obama/Clinton with older generations favoring Clinton.

Co-Workers - predominantly Central American and Mexican are favoring Obama.

Edit to above, I have more than 2 friends...

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Also, one other point, conspicuously absent from the post touting the lead. The last IVR poll dated 2/1 had clinton at 49 and obama at 38. Therefore, in two weeks, clinton lost 1 point and obama gained three. Even just maintaining the same trend, on election day the poll would read clinton 47, obama 44. And this is with no campaigning by obama yet, not looking good for the clintons. Go obama.

It has been pointed out that Obama hasn't even started campaigning in person in Texas. That's true. But he does have one inestimable advantage there. Hillary [italic]is[/italic] campaigning there, and everywhere she starts appearing, Obama's numbers go up.

InfiniteJest and colonpowwow,

I can't speak for markkraft, and personally I don't think the contributors list makes a necessary difference anyway, but I do believe there's a substantive difference between Obama and Hillary in the matter of housing bailout, and that Obama's position is preferable to Hillary's.

Full disclosure: am a registered independent; like Hillary; voted for Obama in the Mass. primary; am a renter with a young family.

A housing bailout does *not* help everybody. Any kind of serious housing bailout is going to (a) cost the American taxpayer untold billions (b) screws anyone who doesn't own a home, that is to say the same young people who are already fucked by having to shoulder Reagan and Bush's deficits. For me, that means I'm triple-fucked, for no reason other than I'm responsible enough not to take on debt I can't handle. There have to be consequences for what comes down to gambling on the part of banks. That goes for individuals too, though I agree that some minimal help to take the edge off the worst of the social fallout is acceptable.

Obama's very modest plans are acceptable in this way; what he said in the California debate tells me that he understands that there isn't a free lunch in this matter, that intervention is going to have very painful consequences for many Americans. I don't think there's any way in hell that Hillary will be able to freeze mortgage rates, for example, but the fact that she will even propose that with a straight face tells me she's either more simple-minded than is appropriate in a president, or more willing to say calculated things that are obviously insane than is appropriate in a president.

Hillary and Dodd were making noises about a mortgage bailout in the sense of bank indemnification as early as last summer, and I called both senators to register my protest at that time. I was able to speak to someone at Dodd's office right away; I called Hillary's office four times and eventually had to leave a message. Put all of this together and I do basically worry that Hillary will be more of a president for the banks, and less of a president for me. And for the record, I like Hillary, I like Obama, I like Dodd even; I would/will vote for any of them for president in a general election provided that they don't pull a Florida 2000 obscenity to get there.

My support for Obama over Hillary is built on top of a bunch of little things like this. The cluster bomb vote is another one. Either Hillary can't distinguish right from wrong with quite the same level of clarity that Obama can, or she's just a little more willing to make political compromises than he is. That's my vote right there.

Why are you obviously smart people touting a Rasmussen poll that polled only Democrats when TX is an open primary?

Uh oh. Did an Obama supporter just say a state was "meaningless"? I thought that was a Clinton thing. I thought every state mattered to Obama.

Don't forget the racists and woman haters who are going to vote for Edwards as they did in Louisiana. Texas has more delegates, but Ohio and Pennsylvania are going to be more persuasive to super delegates. That said, I think she needs to beat him by more than 10 points in Texas to claim Texas as a real victory. Texas has the Hispanics, and it's had Ann Richards. The argument that women dance as well as men and do it backwards in high heels still has some traction there.

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You can never go wrong with a Ginger Rogers reference! ;)

(Confession time: I used to be a dance instructor for a Fred Astaire studio.)

Hmm. And it appears an even newer one has her up by 16 points. Oh well.

I was wondering when folks would notice that. Perhaps the champagne corks I hear popping among my fellow Obama supporters are just a touch premature.

Or maybe not. Evidently an even more recent poll (ARG) agrees with the IVR against Rasmussen that the race is very close. However, ARG puts Obama ahead slightly. While I would not like to put to much trust in that latter aspect, I do think that this suggests that the race there is far too close for Clinton's comfort. Especially if you consider that Rasmussen's more (for her) encouraging number is a one-day tracking poll, a species particularly prone to statistical abberations, while IVR's and ARG's numbers represent 3 and 2 day polls respectively.

Texas is a semi-open, not fully open, primary which could alter the independents and republicans leaning Obama slightly.

One more point about Texas is how the delegates are awarded. The setup favors Obama as allocation occurs based on prior national election voting patterns. 2006 had high AA and low HA turnout which would take a bite out of Clinton's HA advantage.

People are fawning all over Sen. Barack Obama, especially since Super Tuesday. But do people really know his record in the US Senate and shouldn't people know it before voting for him? After all, you wouldn't buy a car without researching it first. Here are
some facts about Sen. Obama's voting record, pursuant to www.senate.gov: He voted for an additional $36Million for Guantanamo Bay (SenRollCate 93 in 2005); He voted to move interstate, class action lawsuits from state to federal courts, thus making it harder for consumers to sue [SenRollCall 9 in 2005). He failed to vote at all on S.Amdt 3164 in 2007 to safely redeploy troops from Iraq. One final note. He did not even vote to bring Bin Laden to justice (SAmdt2135 in 2007).
Enough said.

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Here are some more facts: the league of conservation voters gave Obama a 96 and Clinton a 90 for their lifetime voting record. McCain received a 26. That's looking over their entire record rather than just cherry-picking a small subset of bills.

After hearing some of what Obama has been preaching to the empty masses who are in need of something to fill the hole left by the last 8 years of the Bush whitehouse, its a little easier to understand why these Obama cult followers are so crazed.

To try to get them to listen to something as boring and mundane as logic, policies, programs, etc., is like trying to teach disciples of Christ, calculus. They don't care. They're mesmerized and they're loving it. They don't even care if it means taking our country down with their swoon in mass.

Like those who followed Jim Jones to that little island and drank the Kool aid, these people are mesmerized by such slogans as:

"We are the ones we've been waiting for." (Cheers, applause.) "We are the change that we seek." These people actually buy into this empty rhetoric. Facts? When they keep bathing in such a nice warm sudsy bubble bath such as that, who wants to be bothered with mere facts?

"We are the hope of the future," sayeth Obama as written by Charles Krauthammer in today's Washington Post. We can "remake this world as it should be." Believe in me and I shall redeem not just you but your country -- nay, we can become "a hymn that will heal this nation, repair this world, and make this time different than all the rest."

How do you top that with mere truth or fact??

As Krauthammer wrote: "Obama has an astonishingly empty paper trail. He's going around issuing promissory notes on the future that he can't possibly redeem. "

So what do you do with these people? The same thing that has to be done with Rev. Moon followers and any cult victim, DE-PROGRAM them. The problem is, when you have such masses that have fallen victim to such mass hysteria, you can't really do that. The last time we had such a phenomena was in the days of Hitler. Hitler too, enthralled his followers with such a passion that they marched in mass to follow him right off the cliff.

Hillary needs to show the emptiness and folly of this approach by Obama and to reach people BEFORE they are programmed by this empty rhetoric. Catch them BEFORE they innocently drink the Kool Aid and its too late. Our country is at stake!

Read the article at: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/art...his_spell.html


Rae

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If you want logic and policies, go to his website—or listen to his recent talk on economic policy. If you want to make fun of speeches, why don't you try using your wit on a typical Hillary speech? They're just as vacuous on average—just not as inspiring.

I never claimed to understand how Republicans think, it's simply an observation of how they have played the game. (I don't like them but you have to admit they're clever...I mean, if they can pull off getting a really lousy president like Bush re-elected...)

Secondly, I never said that my expat friends were Clinton supporters, but Democrats.

Thirdly, I am not 'missing' any information because I live overseas (like I don't have a high speed connection?...). I maintain that so-called crossover voters are either: playing the game strategically to sink Clinton (a more formidable candidate) or just window shopping for a fresh face and don't really adhere to Democratic values...and Obama espouses liberal Democratic values...so this infatuation will wear off in a few months.

Yes, we can say things like, "I have many Republican friends who say..." however...extrapolating from one's circle of acquaintances to the American public is not very convincing or 'logical'. But hey, if you can do it, why can't I? My parents consider themselves 'Independants'...they have voted Republican in the last 4 presidential elections. (Just wait for the Republicans to play the terror card mid to late October).

BTW, has anyone seen the lastest Rasumussen poll?

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I never claimed to understand how Republicans think, it's simply an observation of how they have played the game.

I think you're confusing the Republican leadership with the rank-and-file. Most of the rank-and-file are actually decent, honest folk. Misinformed, but not bad people.

I maintain that so-called crossover voters are either: playing the game strategically to sink Clinton (a more formidable candidate) or just window shopping for a fresh face and don't really adhere to Democratic values...and Obama espouses liberal Democratic values...so this infatuation will wear off in a few months.

Your first argument is flawed for two reasons: (1) Clinton will be easier to beat than Obama in the general elctions, and (2) the rank-and-file Republicans (those who are polled) aren't the ones playing the game.

Your second argument is valid. Of course, the fact that Obama espouses liberal Democratic values (more so than Clinton, even), makes me wonder why you're against him…

Yes, we can say things like, "I have many Republican friends who say..." however...extrapolating from one's circle of acquaintances to the American public is not very convincing or 'logical'. But hey, if you can do it, why can't I? My parents consider themselves 'Independants'...they have voted Republican in the last 4 presidential elections.

Please do: that's what I've been asking for, as I know that my friends and family are just a sample. So, are your parents "playing the game" you're talking about? Are they being dishonest, or might they actually be the swing voters that give Obama the presidency in November?

Just wait for the Republicans to play the terror card mid to late October.

Absolutely, just like they did in October 2006.

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Well ARG has obama up 48 to 42 over clinton in texas now. Once again the polls are all over the place; however, the good point is that the race looks super close, which isn't good for the clintons. As long as Ohio, PA and Texas aren't blowouts by the clintons, which is doubtful, Obama may very well be the nominee on March 5. A squeaker win will not stop his mo.

I'm an idealist but I really don't see my parents (the so-called Independants) voting Democratic whoever the candidate in November. (Unfortunately, we're all from the most unpredictable swing state, Missouri). BTW, I really supported Barack's good friend, Claire McCaskill.

I don't dislike Obama. I think that both candidates have got their hearts and heads in the right places, I am just one of millions of Democrats who feel that he is just too fragile as a candidate due to his lack of experience. The stakes are too high for the entire world.

I wonder if these blogs are feeding a kind acrimony among people who basically share the same values?


O you do, do you!. You "wonder about the blogs feeding acrimony" This coming from a guy who keeps on ranting about how regular moderate Republicans are really evil schemers voting for Obama just to sabotage him in November.

You are pathetic.

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I don't dislike Obama.
I apologize for implying otherwise.
I'm an idealist but I really don't see my parents (the so-called Independants) voting Democratic whoever the candidate in November.

Well, that leads to two questions:

(1) Do you think they're just "playing the game", then because they think Obama would be easier to beat, or do you think they're just swayed (possibly only temporarily) by his charisma?

(2) Given that they're more likely to vote for McCain regardless, do you think they'd be more likely to vote for Clinton against McCain or Obama against McCain?

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Ok gregg, like any polls have been stunning this primary season. Rasmussen is probably the worst bar none of all polling organizations. I would put more cred in any other poll before I would rasmussen.

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like any polls have been stunning this primary season

As opposed to other primary seasons? ;)

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Very good point.

Am sure Obama will get a lot more than 65% of the black vote... Texas will be very close... Bad news for HRC, who needs to make a significant dent in the delegate lead...

Has anyone else looked at the Pollster.com trendline for TX? Not to be vulgar, but Obama's trendline could do promo spots for Viagra right now. He still has more than two weeks to go, which is an eternity in politics, but I have to say that her "firewall" there is starting to look like dry tinder to my eye.

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Clearly, you're a sexist. ;)

While I agree that the Clinton campaign will spin the results out of Texas in one of those scenarios accordingly, it will not hold weight in the media. The story will simply be the "firewall broke" or some variant of that title. That said, if Clinton wins, and by a good margin (I am thinking 10-plus points), all of the conversation about Obama momentum goes out the window.

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