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Hillary Pollster Mark Penn: Obama More Likely To Suffer Fate Of John Kerry Or Al Gore

On a conference call with reporters just now, Hillary pollster Mark Penn sought to make the case for her electability by dredging up bad memories of the GOP and right-wing media's successful efforts to redefine Al Gore and John Kerry, arguing that Hillary wouldn't succumb to such tactics.

The "GOP attack machine," Penn suggested, "skewed the perceptions of such distinguished public servants as Al Gore and John Kerry" in a way that left perceptions of them "out of touch with reality."

Penn said that Hillary has "withstood" this process, while Obama would find that his independent support "would evaporate relatively quickly once he faced the Republicans." Penn added that the GOP "is already playing the national security card against Obama."

In addition to a straightforward electability argument, it's worth noting that Penn's appeal is an emotional one, too -- the obvious tactic being that he's raising fears of Kerry and Gore redux. Penn's implicit goal here seems to be to make Democrats worry -- without saying so outright -- that Obama will prove too weak to fight back effectively against the GOP slime machine, just as Kerry and Gore did.


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So Hillary's campaign wants to play the fear mongering game. How Rove like.

Hey Hillary; Beat Obama on your own merits, instead of of using the GOP Scare tactics in Lieu of you being able to win on your own merits.

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Are people still having commenting problems?

If you accept the premise that Clinton is a smart and capable leader, then the fact that half the country doesn't like her and won't vote for her under any circumstances proves that the GOP attack machine has already skewed perceptions of her just like they did with Gore and Kerry, so I don't understand their point.

Don't vote for him because they might be able to do to him what they've already effectively done to me?

Travelgate.
The renting of the Lincoln bedroom.
Claiming that Gennifer Flowers lied about her husband and doctored tape recordings.
Believing that corporate lobbyists "represent real people" who, apparently, deserve to buy elections.
Minimizing the HUGE contribution of MLK, who was jailed, beaten, spied on, and finally shot down.

Hillary didn't need a "vast rightwing conspiracy" to make her look like a sleazy politician. I'd say that she did it to herself.

If Clinton and her team are so big and bad that they can whoop anyone, why can't they beat Obama? And since they can't are they either weak or is Obama the badass that can take on the Repubs?

Great analysis by Arnon Mishkin at RealClearPolitics:

Can Obama Close?

"With regards to the racial issue, Sen. Obama needs to heed the lessons learned in the 1982 Tom Bradley campaign for governor of California. Like Sen. Obama, Mayor Bradley was a candidate who "happened to be black." He decided not to address the issue of his race head-on, fearing it would only call attention to it. In the last days of the campaign, his opponent figured out how to inject race into the campaign, and Bradley lost, despite leading in the polls for months. This year, Sen. Obama needs to figure out how to explicitly ventilate that issue, so that voters resolve it to his, and not an opponent's, advantage."

"Similarly, he needs to address risk. Sen. Obama needs to convince Democrats that it is okay to "retire" the Clintons, something they are uncomfortable doing. Metaphorically, he must hand the Clintons a "gold watch" and appear sincere in doing so. This is important to Democratic primary voters, most of whom have no interest in "punishing" Senator Clinton or her husband. Finding a way to assure people that a vote for Obama is not a vote against Hillary will, to some degree, determine whether Sen. Obama can 'close'."

Full article:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/02/can_obama_close.html

I agree with the second paragraph, but this aint 1982!

He must know what he's talking about - you know with the Clinton campaign doing so well and everything.

Well, its an argument anyway.

For many people, HRC raises the spector of what that same attack machine did in ruining the end of Bill's presidency.

So if those are the twin worst case scenarios, I think Obama has the better of that argument. I promise you, from western TN, it is next to impossible to overstate how very much the Clintons are hated by independents in this part of the country. Or how much her presence on the ticket would be the thing that would stir the crazed on the right to actually mobilize and vote for McCain in November.

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What nonsense.

Obama has stood up to everything the Clinton machine has hurled at him, what has Hillary stood up to recently?

Here is Hillary's problem: She is running on her "experience." Just what exactly is that experience? Obama won't go negative against Hillary, but the GOP will. They will attack her where she is strongest, in her case that is her experience. They will take that "experience" and turn it against her and you know what? It won't even be that hard to do, expecially if she is going against McCain, who is far more experienced than she.

Kerry, Gore, Obama... Not a real stretch at all. Yep, giving the election to the Republicans on a silver platter.

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Are you referring to clinton's senate seat being given to her on a silver platter? I think you have some typos mattie.

Gore = Establishment Candidate
Kerry = Establishment Candidate

Drum roll please ...
Hillary Clinton = Establishment Candidate, even more so.

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Kerry = cold spineless automaton

Gore = cold spineless automaton

Obama = gutsy charismatic hero

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Gore and Kerry weren't "cold spineless automata" until the Republicans and their allies in the news media _made them_ that way. Rest assured that those same forces have already come up with plenty of ways to tarnish the "gutsy charismatic hero" line.

I think they're going to go for a bit of the old bait-n-switch: they'll say that Obama sounds good, but it's all an act, and he's a flaming liberal in disguise, playing America for suckers. I hope he has a good retort to that.

(P.S. I'm hoping that he _is_ a flaming liberal underneath the rhetoric, because we need a flaming liberal these days!)

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You're reaching "troll" levels at this point. Every post you make is so blindly pro-Clinton (or anti-Obama)...do you have a TPM of your own?

But wait, I thought that Bill said he was like Jesse Jackson?! Which candidate is Barack Obama like anyways?

You know who Hillary is like? Michael Dukakis.

A northeastern establishment politician who turns off middle America, with negative appeal outside of the standard liberal bastions.


Penn, et. al have run a terrible campaign. Now he's spewing this garbage. Puh-leeze. Senator Clinton's $5,000,00 in checks to him has bought a lot of new $3,000 suits and fancy French wine, only to buy her a joke of a campaign that has been totally out-foxed by Obama's.

Senator Clinton has run a campaign that shows she cannot mamange her way out of a paper bog. Now, she wants to run the country? Please, she's firing the woman and keeing this guy?

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This all seems a little backward. Hillary unquestionably has more points that avail herself to the GOP slaughter machine. I think they're going easier on her right now because she'd make such a good target if she were to be the nominee and so they'd like her to get that far. The attack machine will come one way or another, but at least with Obama their attacks will be less, ya know, based in reality.

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It's not about "weakness" with Kerry and Gore. It was an inability to believe that the Republican attacks would even gain hold. That was their major shortcoming.

Obama? I think he can believe how low the Republicans can and will go, but if last night's interview on "60 Minutes" is any indication, even if he understands how nasty the attacks will be, it's not clear how he's going to handle it. He said going negative "just isn't my campaign", or words to that effect. Noble. And refreshing to hear. But......

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You don't have to go "negative" on McCain to beat him. You just have to keep playing all the video of him back before he changed all his positions against the video of him now. That plus the Bomb Iran bit and the walk through the Baghdad market and his line about lying when it suits him to do so - oh and there was that interview where he outright admitted he'd pander to the religious right to win the election. He beats himself.

HRC hasn't "withstood" jack. She got her ass handed to her on her only significant policy initiative and was forced to retreat for the balance of the Clinton presidency. Indeed, the damage is already done -- her negatives are very high, and they're not going anywhere.

Penn and others can assert that Obama is like a delicate flower that will somehow wither under the glare of the GOP kleig lights, but there is no evidence of that. If anything, Obama has demonstrated remarkable skill in standing up to the Clinton machine -- they're no slouches in the arena of gutter politics.

"Obama will prove too weak to fight back effectively against the GOP slime machine, just as Kerry and Gore did."

I tell you what, in this game, it takes a good brain and lots of money. at this point clinton have neither.

if you think the democratic party and its member are going to be playing stupid again, think again.

Clintonistas, donate more money! Mark Penn's unparalleled brilliance doesn't come cheap! Feed him more! ($10 million and counting......)

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I am surprised to be hearing from the pennmeister. I would have thought that he would have been part of the "reshuffle." Heck of a job pennie.

HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAA!! It IS opposite day!!

Wow, that was good, haha. Is Penn talking about possible skewed perceptions of Obama? Did he fail to look at the polls (he is a pollster right??) that show Hillary's unfavorable rating is already at 50%, BEFORE the Republicans have a chance to go after he again? Looks to me like the Republicans did a damn good job on her already, what makes he think she can defend against them? It looks like they've won the first couple rounds, and the only reason she is still standing with 50% is because they haven't had a reason to go after her for a while, and they are waiting for us to be stupid enough to nominate her.

Haha, way to "withstand" the GOP attacks Hillary, you already have one foot in the electoral grave from the Republicans' standpoint. And you are actually arguing that Obama's independent support might evaporate??? YOU DON'T HAVE ANY INDEPENDENT SUPPORT TO BEGIN WITH IDIOT!!!!

HAHAHAHAA! Give me a BREAK! Talk about throwing stones from a glass house built on jenga stilts!! What a total idiot.

See, this is that 180 degree Orwellian craziness that I'm talking about...attacking someone on their strengths and your own weaknesses. Haha.

Take a look at the polls Penn, they all say McCain would destroy Hillary, even before the GOP machine takes another swing at her. Ohhhh, that brightened my day. Thanks Mark.

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Penn says, over at Politico, that the polls aren't really telling us anything, except about enthusiasm...he was specifically referring to the polls showing Obama beating McCain and HRC losing to McCain in head-to-head matchups.

Sort of ironic, a pollster dismissing what he makes a living on...


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Anyone still having trouble commenting?

Yes, posts appear to be accepted and I am returned to the originating page but no post ever shows up.

By the way, I like the prompt for user ID and password that you've added instead of just posting us as guest when our log in session is lost.

But there is a problem with this login prompt. It always rejects the password on the first attempt.

Hopefully we will get a chance to test your weak candidate thesis Matthew.


I am not. I cannot speak for anyone else, but things seem to be working much more reliably for me.

I get a weird thing that says i'm logged in and then i have to enter u and p again. it always tells me on first submit that my pass. is wrong. then i hit it again and it sends.

In trying to reply to this message, here's what I experienced:

1. I hit "Reply." I'm shown as being logged in, and the checkbox showing that I'm replying to you is enabled.

2. After typing a message and hitting send, I get a request to log in in order to comment.

3. Having seen the reply function get messed up previously, I don't trust that logging in here will retain the reply thread, so I log out using the text link right above the comment field.

4. I log in using the main login page and return to this thread.

5. I scroll down to your message and hit "Reply" again.

6. I see that I'm replying to you via the checkbox message, but I'm prompted to log in yet again.

7. After logging in, the checkbox message showing the reply status disappears.

8. I scroll back up to your message and click "Reply" yet again.

9. This time I don't have to log in, and the checkbox is in place.

10. I will hit "Send" and see if it works this time.

It seems clear to me that the login/session system is still not functioning reliably.

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That's what I've been doing too.

That one worked. Now I'm going to try it by logging in immediately (if requested) to see if the reply relationship stays intact.

This time I didn't have to enter u&p before posting. I'm guessing that might be related to a session timeout issue. I'll try it again later to see if I can recreate the issue.

What I notice right now as I type this is that this site does not remember your login session. Most websites usually will remember your login session via the browser's cookies, but whenever I write something here after authenticating here earlier. I am re-prompted for a username and password after clicking Send. I've learned not to post here this way because often times your post will not be linked to your account and it will appear as if you posted your comment as a guest. So I've made a habit of CTRL+C whatever I type up, hit Refresh button on my browser, then after authenticating I can CTRL+V my response and hit send and my post will eventually appear.

That's funny, I sure missed Hillary beating Rove & Bush.

I'm waiting for Mark Penn to say Al Qaeda will attack if Barack is the nominee. Oh wait- did Hillary already say that?

I guess Hillary isn't banking on securing a Gore endorsement then.

What a weak argument. Does he really think Hillary will be immune to those attacks just because she's been attacked before? It doesn't work like that.

She'll still be attacked just as much as Obama. And she'll suffer just as much if not more because those attacks will coincide with the public's pre-conceived notions of who she is.

Puh-leeze. This Penn guy has proven to be about as prescient as a weather vane. Clinton has spent
$5 million on this cult figure for her and her husband. She's paid for a lot of $3,000 suits and fancy French wines for a strategy that the big guy from Illinois has constantly countered. Clinton fires the loyal lady and keeps the white guys like this???

I'm beginning to think that Clinton is too incompetent a manager to be president. From the
campaign she has been running, she coundn't manage her way out of a paper bag.

Wow, that's a devestatingly effective argument, except the parts where it completely mistates what actually happened in those two races and smears our last two presidential candidates. But hey Mark, I strongly encourage you to keep publicly insulting Al Gore and, especially, to pointedly ignore the role that Bill and Hill's drama played in Gore's loss when you do so. That's gotta help you garner superdelegates, right.

Oh please, or please, Lord, let the switch in campaign chairs mean that Mark Penn is resuming his former role of dominence in Hillary's campaign.

Doesn't this seem like a pretty poor strategy for Clinton? I mean, when someone mentions Kerry or Gore, am I going to think of Clinton or Obama first?

Obama is nothing like Kerry or Gore as candidates.

This Penn guy is a piece of work. I think bringing up either of these names is a bad move for Clinton.

I'd expect the Blackwater guy to play the fear card..

Kerry & Gore were "insiders", rank & file Dems. Just like Hillary Clinton.

Mark Penn doesn't want to look at it that way, but all three of them were/are the standard, inside party officials.

Kerry & Gore were "insiders", rank & file Dems. Just like Hillary Clinton.

Mark Penn doesn't want to look at it that way, but all three of them were/are the standard, inside party officials.

Matthew, once again, light on critical thinking, heavy on blind echoing of talking points. If you close your eyes and say "The sky is green, the sky is green" enough times when you open them is it actually green? I feel like that is what you are doing here.

"Kerry, Gore, Obama... Not a real stretch at all. Yep, giving the election to the Republicans on a silver platter."

Yeahhh, way to be a complete zombie.

Nislieb, you are absolutely right. If Hillary is nominated, after running on a fluffed resume "full" of "experience", and goes up against McCain, how far do her supporters think "experience" is going to go against McCain's actual experience. Really in all honesty she can't even beat Obama on experience, if you actually research her background and see what she is trying to pass off as experience...but McCain? Hell no. She is very short sighted, and if she is given the opportunity to go up against McCain, he will tear her apart. Experience my ass.

Seems like a slap in the face of Gore and Kerry, no?

and more reason why she will only be dreaming to recieve a Edwards endorsement. The Clinton's completely written off the Kerry/Edwards run in 2004 so she could run in this year.

Penn said that Hillary has "withstood" this process, while Obama would find that his independent support "would evaporate relatively quickly once he faced the Republicans."

Fair enough. His job is to advance arguments for her candidacy. I hope, however, that he does not believe his own spin here. It is not clear in the least that she has "withstood" anything. She has not run against a really strong Republican opponent, and especially not for a job as high-profile as the presidency. I dare say that both of them are going to get blasted and I do not give either especially better odds vis-a-vis withstanding the inferno.

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The reason Gore and Kerry failed was NOT that they were insufficiently "battle tested." It was that they came across as scripted, stiff, calculating, joyless, cautious, poll-driven politicians. Voters hate that and the GOP took full advantage. There is one candidate in the Dem field now who matches that profile; it's not Barack Obama.

The latest Clinton Campaign tactic; In A Nutshell:

We can not give you a good reason why Hillary is a better candidate than Senator Obama, or why you should vote for her;

Therefore we want you to to vote for her because Senator Obama might lose to John McCain, after Hillary has lost to Senator Obama. Clinton Logic: I am a primary loser, but I am better that the primary winner. Wonderful stuff. On a par with Big Foot Bill saying that he was always against the Iraq War. That means that he was saying that he knew better than his wife, who voted for the War.

If if was not for the ability to tell lies, Bill Clinton would be left with nothing to say ever.

45rpm:

Sen. Obama "unscripted"?

C'mon.

Sen. Obama: Our time has come. (APPLAUSE) Our time has come. Our movement is real, and change is coming to America.

Jesse Jackson: “Our time has come. Our time has come. Suffering breeds character. Character breeds faith. In the end, faith will not disappoint. Our time has come. Our faith, hope, and dreams will prevail. Our time has come. Weeping has endured for nights, but now joy cometh in the morning. Our time has come. No grave can hold our body down. Our time has come. No lie can live forever. Our time has come. We must leave racial battle ground and come to economic common ground and moral higher ground. America, our time has come. We come from disgrace to amazing grace. Our time has come. Give me your tired, give me your poor, your huddled masses who yearn to breathe free and come November, there will be a change because our time has come."


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" In addition to a straightforward electability argument, it's worth noting that Penn's appeal is an emotional one, too -- the obvious tactic being that he's raising fears of Kerry and Gore redux. Penn's implicit goal here seems to be to make Democrats worry -- without saying so outright -- that Obama will prove too weak to fight back effectively against the GOP slime machine, just as Kerry and Gore did. "


Don't you know Barack has this magical pixie dust, scraped off the bottoms of his supporter's feet, that he sprinkles himself with daily that makes him impervious to right wing hate. You worry needlessly.

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The similarities of how Karl Rove and Mark Penn strategize, campaign and comment are breath taking. Neither one has a shred of integrity and will say anything that they believe will assist their candidate no matter how far from the truth it is. The current quote from Penn is an excellent example.

Hillary Clinton is the candidate/campaign that is to that of Kerry or Gore. She was the hands down favorite of the Washington insiders at the start of the race. She tried to oust Howard Dean from the chairmanship of the DNC to put on of her ardent supporters (Harold Ford) and entrench DLC power effectively locking out grassroots from having a voice within the Democratic Party's leadership.

Simply put, she is the old time politician, just like Gore and Kerry, fighting to keep a popular grassroots candidate (Bradley and Dean) by using a questionable "electibility" argument when all indicators point to the fact that the grassroots candidate was and is more popular to those outside of the party base and therefore have a greater chance of winning.

For Hillary to come out and try to paint Obama as the candidacy similar Kerry is so Rovian in nature the jaw drops. It ranks right up there from where the Clintons tried to claim that they opposed the Iraq War from the start and spoke out against it. After a week of having it thrown in their face that they were blatantly lying, with numerous videos proving that they were. The Clinton campaign went out bemoaning how the news was being unfair to them by exposing the truth. Again, how Rovian.

It is far past time to stop rewarding politicians that use such tactics.

I wouldn't be surprised if Penn gets pointers from Rove.

Clinton should have thrown the porcine Penn under the bus wheels after SC. His prominence in her campaign is a big mistake and the fact that she keeps him on calls her judgment into question in my mind.

Absolutely!

He is a charlatan who refuses to release his data because he pulls numbers out of his you-know-what.

He's an unprincipled union buster who sees no conflict between heading a corporate public relations firm that represents the likes of Blackwater and being chief advisor to a presidential candidate.

He's a DLC hack who still believes that Democrats can only be elected if they sound more like Republicans and move to the right.

And he'll say anything.

I would actually be a lot more favorably inclined toward Hillary if she didn't have someone like him in such a central, pivotal position. It's also a telling contrast that Bush, of all people, told Karl Rove he had to sell his interest in his firm before joining the Bush campaign in 2000, while Hillary has made no such demand of Penn.

It is especially revealing that

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Obama is winning against the Clinton Machine and Bush/McCain.

Hillary is winning against... David Schuster?!

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This is pretty standard stuff. The goal is to make your opponent unacceptable to voters. Obama's got more on Hillary than she has on him, so I'd say this tactic will fall flat.

I find it real hard for anyone to legitimately suggest Obama resembles the non-personalities of Gore and Kerry. They were unelectable from day one. I think the only reason they did so well was because Bush was so weak in the first place. Can you imagine if Gore or Kerry were as inspirational as Obama?

This isn't 2000 or 2004 either. McCain has Rove? Not a chance. He possibly has the reluctant use of the voter tampering apparatus that Bush/Rove put in place over the years but I don't think it will come into play. That only worked in a close election, which 2008 is not. That also worked when the chief criminals had friends in power, something not as guaranteed as in 2000/2004.

Mark Penn gets paid $5million for this stuff?

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This is just pathetic, deperate, what-the-hell-are-we-going to do politics. These people are losing and they're tossing every grenade left in their arsenal. It will be all over after Obama pulls ahead of Hillary tomorrow.

This is perhaps one of the craziest ideas I've heard out of her campaign to date. The Clinton campaign is being run by the Terry McAuliffes of the Democratic Party, and they want us to believe that Obama would sink when up against Republicans. Ha!

So HRC is putting down Gore and Kerry, who both lost elections they should easily have won, and that's not cool.

But Obama putting down the only Democratic president to serve two terms since...well, since long before I was born, that's totally acceptable?

You mean that Former President who went around the country attacking Senator Obama by name, the same former President who claimed that he was always against the Iraq War.(Question: does that not mean that he thought Hillary was stupid for voting for the Iraq War)

You mean that former President who flat out lied on Saturday in Louisiana about something that Senator Obama had never said. ABC called Bill Clinton out on that latest lie of his about Senator Obama.

Gee: I can see why you think that Senator Obama should be sending only Valentines to Big Foot Bill the Habitual Liar.

I'm not saying Obama should "sending Valentines" to anyone.

I'm simply questioning the double-standard that it is not okay for HRC to be critical of Democrats, but it is okay for Obama to be critical of Democrats.

For argument's sake, let's say HRC wins the nomination. Seems that will require a fair bit of back-pedaling by all those Dems out there who have suddenly been so eager to bash Bill in an attempt to advance Obama's candidacy.

I think Obama has stood up to the Clinton establishment's attacks pretty well.

How about a reprise: Bob Kerry tried to associate Obama as a muslim by falsely claiming Obama attended a madrassa (and then apologized for his knowingly factually inaccurate statement), Mark Penn tried to inject Obama's admitted drug use as an issue over whether or not he was just a user (by attempting to insert a question as to whether he was perhaps also a seller), Bill Clinton went after Obama's anti-war stance by notoriously calling it a fairy tale, Bill tried to dismiss him as a risk and roll of the dice on Charlie Rose, post SC Bill dismissed Obama's win on the issue of race by attempting to draw a parallel with Jesse Jackson's win in the state in '84, Bob Johnson tried to denigrate Obama's credentials as a community activist by revisiting the drug issue (again), Andrew Young tried to say that Obama wasn't really black and that Bill had probably been with more black woment than Obama, Hillary called caucuses "disenfranchising" to excuse her losses and downplay Obama's wins as the result of a quirky voting processes, and Clinton supporter and NYT columnist Paul Krugman just today called Obama's supporters victims and perpetuators of a personality cult.

Hey Penn, to borrow Bill's own line, "give me a break, thing is the biggest fairy tale that I have ever seen." When are they sending you packing? What a colossal waste of money you've become.

Why do I feel like there's a gnat buzzing around my head any time I read a quote from Mark Penn?

Mark Penn is the most overpaid and least credible political consultant in America. If Hillary had a Joe Trippi, she would have money left in the Bank and likely be doing alot better. That this fat, greedy bastard has any credibility with the media amazes me. OBAMA'S Independent support would evaporate? Well Mr. Penn, then if Hillary has NONE to speak of, and nearly 1/2 of her own party will bolt and not vote for Hillary if she is the nominee then how does that portend for Hillary in a GENERAL ELECTION?? Will Independents, Republicans and disaffected Republicans all of a sudden fall in love with her?? In so many states, Hillary cannot even rally DEMOCRATS to the polls. That is SUICIDE. QUOTE ME: If Hillary is the Democratic Nominee several things will happen: 1) Record numbers of Democrats will bolt the party, support the Republican or Independent candidate, 2) Independents will vote R or I and 3)Republicans will be energized to come out in record numbers to defeat Hillary and 4)Independent Candidate will take away votes from HRC and Hillary will not even get the 43% that Bill got when Ross Perot ran the first time. She will finish in the mid-high 30%

Creating a Gore/Obama image in the head of voters is not a good strategy. Given the high regard for Gore among many of her own supporters, this can backfire.

Speaking of Gore, check this article on why they say he lost:

DLC founder From wrote in his analysis of the election that Democrats need to build a new majority, not rely on the Democratic coalitions from years past.

The Democratic coalition "must expand beyond our Democratic base ... and must include men as well as women, whites as well as African-Americans and Hispanics, suburbanites as well as city dwellers, moderates and even some conservatives as well as liberals." - Link

Isn't that what Obama is succeeding in doing?

Agreed. In my own small polling sample, (

A small sample, I know, but I get the feeling it's plausibly representative.

Hillary has taken total advantage of the fact that Obama isn't going to take shots at people on HIS OWN TEAM! You can't assume Obama won't be more aggressive towards Republicans just because he isn't willing to behead someone in his own party. What I've been disgusted the most by is that Hillary cares NOTHING about Obama or others in the party, or the party leadership, the parties decisions, the voters, anything, all she cares about is getting ahead politically. Her and Bill will say anything and do anything to get ahead, even if it is the absolute worst thing for the party. Obama has managed to beat her with one arm tied behind his back so to speak. He has refrained from going too negative on her, because he realizes there are more important things than personal quests for power.

So while he has been doing this, and winning, with one hand behind his back, Hillary and Bill have been flailing at him with 4 fists of fury, and it is getting them nowhere fast. Now tell me who is best able to win in the general election. C'mon now.

P.S. How smart is it to piss Gore off while his endorsement is still withstanding? The Clinton campaign's remarks about LBJ (entirely leaving out JFK) is what helped convinced Kennedy to endorse Obama.

I wonder, do the Clinton's know that Gore's endorsement of Obama is imminent?

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H. Clinton didn't "leave out" Kennedy, as I recall. She said that Johnson did what King and Kennedy had hoped to do.

P.S. How smart is it to piss Gore off while his endorsement is still withstanding? The Clinton campaign's remarks about LBJ (entirely leaving out JFK) is what helped convinced Kennedy to endorse Obama.

I wonder, do the Clinton's know that Gore's endorsement of Obama is imminent?

Bulletin from the desk of:

Mark Poison Penn:

Do not root for the New York Giants to go to the Super Bowl, because they will not be able to stand up to the New England Patriots high powered attack. Send the team that the Giants defeated instead.

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Penn added that the GOP "is already playing the national security card against Obama."

I think Penn is implicitly arguing that no one can "play the national security card" against Hillary because she...

...drumroll...

Voted for the Iraq War!

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That's right.

Great argument for the general election. For the primaries? Ehhh, not so much.

In the general, she can't be cast as a wimpy Dem, because she voted for the war, for funding, for Kyl-Lieberman. These would be politically palatable positions.

In the general election.

FYI Greg or Eric. The AP/Ipsos poll out today has Obama up 46 to Clinton's 41, not the reverse as appears on the side of EC. Check the wires: http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1711904,00.html

oh and USA Today/Gallup has Obama 47, Clinton 44--
http://blogs.usatoday.com/onpolitics/2008/02/usa-todaygall-1.html?csp=34

not sure if that is the same "Gallup" for Feb 11 you have up on the side, but if it is, something is once again wrong.

What? Penn continues to run HC's campaign into the ditch and now he wants to tell us how Obama will fail?? Hah! Your money is on the dresser, go home, blowhard! Rock Barack!

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The Hillary campaign is beginning to remind me of an ingrown toenail...... witness Penn's inane words which spiral back to cause more self-inflicted pain and pressure.
I really enjoy the fact that the old style rovian/penn politicking has begun to be ineffective in light of increased voter involvement and awareness.

They didn't throw Penn under the bus because it would have upended the bus, killing all aboard and ending the campaign prematurely, before its eventual official ending on March 3rd.

LOL.

Best. line. ever.


Mr. Micro trends... hello, you obviously missed the boat that voters want change.

And talking about change, Mark Penn, why don't you do something useful for the Clintons and refund your ridiculous $2.3million fee? God knows they need the money and you certainly haven't earned a penny of it.

mmacdDE over at dailykos oput it even better than I did above http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2008/2/11/10835/8086/181#c181:

Gore - listened to consultants
Kerry - listened to consultants
Clinton - listens to consultants

Obama - knows who to listen to (hint - NOT the high paid, insulated, consultants).

Penn is underestimating how voters feel about Obama. What snuck past them re: GOP attacks on Gore/Kerry won't fly when they attempt to attack Obama. The country is in LOVE with this guy; they're behind him, supporting him - they WANT him as President. We won't lose the independents.

It won't be at all the same this time around.

Man, I am an Obama supporter but I start getting worried when I read this sort of thinking. I think that Obama can do really good things for us if we nominate him, but I do not think that we do well to pretend that the current entheusiasm for him is sustainable at present levels. The shine will wear off eventually, at least to some extent. If we are counting on the idea that he will be as greatly adored in the GE as he is presently in a contest made up entirely of democrats and self-selecting independants/republicans, it seems to me that we are setting ourselves up for a disappointment. A modicum of perspective is in order.

mmacdDE over at dailykos oput it even better than I did above http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2008/2/11/10835/8086/181#c181:

Gore - listened to consultants
Kerry - listened to consultants
Clinton - listens to consultants

Obama - knows who to listen to (hint - NOT the high paid, insulated, consultants).

What makes you think that Obama is not listening to consultants. He is a unique candidate, and it is this uniqueness that he is running on, but this candidacy didn't come together over breakfast in his kitchen. There are a lot of political pros involved, but when you have a special product, it sells differently.

I am not sure how Hillary can even run on competence at this point. Apparently she went into New Hampshire unaware that her campaign had blow through over 100 million and was nearly broke. Her campaign seems to be a case of egos and money out of control.

Perhaps going negative is all they have left...

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Has Penn ever served on a campaign that's won? Isn't past performance an indicator of something?

Penn is using the "electability" argument because his candidate is floundering, in no small part because of Penn. From what I heard from fellow D's in 2004, we needed to nominate Kerry because he was "electable" and Howard Dean was not. Clinton follows the Kerry role in voting for the Iraq War, and for having a DLC type like Mark Penn running her campaign. When someone uses the term "electable" about their candidate, it means that they will lose. The same as when a candidate says they're in this until the convention - that means they're going to drop out in the next day or two.

At the risk of sounding like a heretic, I'd rather hear Clinton and Obama discussing issues. I realize they are have similar policy beliefs in many areas, but it'd serve America much better to be talking substance and provide policy leadership than emulating the mainstream media and engaging in empty banter.

A gold watch for the Clintons?

Associate Justice Hillary Rodham Clinton.
Supreme Court of the United States of America.

She is 60 years old and in great health.
She could be on the court for 30 years or more.
She could replace the ailing Ruth Ginsberg.
She has enough Senate credibility to stand confirmation.

What a brilliant idea! Hillary on the Supreme Court. Spread the word!

I think Ruth Ginsburg will (thankfully) be around for a long time.

John Paul Stevens is who we should be worried about.

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I'm with joshua.
Dems have had a habit of running old style party men when they should be sending out political rock stars. Obama made this point with his analysis of what Reagan did for the republicans in the 80s. The irony is that Bill Clinton in 1992 was exactly what Obama is today: a political rock star.
Hillary, God bless her, is a party man who happens to be a woman.
She has it within her to be an excellent leader of the Democratic controlled Senate if she can overcome any disappointment she feels after she conceeds.

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Hillary Clinton can't even beat Barack Obama in the Democratic primary. The general election includes Republicans and Independents, how on Earth does she think she can win there?

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re: "Obama would find that his independent support 'would evaporate relatively quickly'"

Ironic for them to claim this as Hillary has virtually zero "independent" support.

Bunch o' hullabaloo based on nothing more than Penn's word. Snore...

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Is anyone else bothered by the fact that, after voting for Iraq in '02 out of fear of the GOP attack machine, Hillary now boasts about her ability to stand up to that machine? The common thread is that she seems to organize her political career around the Republicans. I guess that's somewhat understandable given how much they've oriented themselves around her, but still, the antidote to spinelessness isn't bluster. It's confidence.

Obama acts like someone who knows his positions have popular support. Hillary acts like someone who's afraid they don't. Or, as Obama himself put it, "Triangulating and poll-driven positions because we're worried about what Mitt or Rudy might say about us just won't do."

I want Democrats to stop being afraid of Republicans. Given how badly they've screwed things up, and given the beatdown they've got coming to them in November, Republicans are the ones who should be scared.

The straw man arguments from the HRC camp are becoming absurd and ridiculous. If you're going to criticize Obama over something, can it for once be for something that isn't hypothetical?

Once again, the anti-Clinton bloggers fill me with fear for the November election. First: Obama is running a great race, could be a great candidate, etc. etc. OK, so cool it on that point.

BUT--people on here say that Hillary hasn't withstood anything? Eight-plus years of incredible slime from the Republicans? Some bloggers here say that the Clinton criticisms/attacks on Obama are just like Rove and the Republicans? Please! Think about Swift Boats, allegations that the Clintons killed Vince Foster, etc. This is pattycake so far; wait until the Republicans start on Obama's drug history. (Again, I in no way think that disqualifies Obama--just noting a political point.)

Sure, Mark Penn is being self-serving, but the issue of whether Obama can handle the slime fest that will hit him if he's nominated is a serious issue, and shouldn't just be an occasion for more idiotic blogging at a level of "nyah-nyah-nyah."

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Sure, Mark Penn is being self-serving, but the issue of whether Obama can handle the slime fest that will hit him if he's nominated is a serious issue, and shouldn't just be an occasion for more idiotic blogging at a level of "nyah-nyah-nyah."

I agree. The question I have is this: is there a way to withstand the slime fest without actually becoming a part of the slime fest?


Actually Obama has so far faced worse than Kerry did. Perhaps you are not aware of just how MANY and VARIED the Swiftboating groups are operating against Obama at the moment. The reason you don't think he's "really faced it" is because he hasn't been destroyed by it, but he could easily have been Swiftboated by any one of these. In comparison to Clinton's relentless attacks, Kerry had an easy ride.

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_barack_obama_muslim.htm
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap_campaignplus/20080124/ap_ca/clinton_race_4
http://skepticalbrotha.wordpress.com/2007/01/17/obama-vs-sharpton/
http://www.obamatruth.org
http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/2008/01/obamas_nation_o.html
http://dsadevil.blogspot.com/2008/01/obama-and-farrakhan.html
http://i.abcnews.com/Blotter/story?id=4111483&page=1
http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/03/barack_obama_and_israel_1.html

Hillary's campaign is the one who is attacking Senator Obama. Check out how Bill Clinton told a bare face lie about Senator Obama, just this past Saturday in Louisiana, and ABC called Big Foot Bill on his latest blatant lie about Senator Obama. Why are you not scared about how the Clintons are behaving so destructively to party unity!

Hillary's campaign promise appears to be: Vote for me because I can slime it out with the worst of them.

Next up from Mark Penn:
"The Obama insurgency is in its last throes. It will all be over by Feb. 05, 2008."

Obama acts like someone who knows his positions have popular support. Hillary acts like someone who's afraid they don't.

You're right. For all her bravado, I think that Hillary is scared of the Republicans.

Obama is not scared of the Republicans, nor should he be.


The irony is that Bill Clinton in 1992 was exactly what Obama is today: a political rock star

He may be another thing Clinton was in '92, a talent head and shoulders above the competition...

With one big difference. Bill Clinton owes his two terms to Ross Perot. With him in those races, Bill Clinton would never have been elected.

You know, every comment I've read by The Commenter Formerly Known as NCSteve has been insightful, funny, well-written and pleasantly lacking in random ad-hominem attacks. Thanks, CFKANCS: I always look forward to your posts, and appreciate your raising the overall level of discourse. Posts like yours are one of the reasons the comments section of this site is worth spending time reading.

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I second this.

Wish NCSteve could come return, because CFKANCS just doesn't have the same zip.

The good thing about Mark Penn is you always know where you stand with him.

The bad thing is it's invariably in the gutter.

Mark Penn can spin until he's dizzy and it will not make Hillary's negatives disappear. In the general election she starts out with a huge handicap because there are Hillary Haters on the right and on the left.

Obama has a much better chance because he is a brilliant campaigner on the stump, is quick to respond to attacks, and has the wind at his back. That is to say, Obama has momentum and and McCain has an anchor.

The ultraconservative voters will not vote for McCain but would rather offer him up as a human sacrifice, then return in 2012 with a "real conservative" (translate that as a born-again, anti-immigrant, pro-war) candidate. The thing that might shake them out to vote would be Hillary and Bill Clinton campaigning nationwide 24/7; that could jar their nerves.

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Thanks to Mark Penn for reminding us all that if Bill Clinton had not foolishly risked everything to use Monica Lewinsky as his personal humidor, Al Gore would likely be in the Oval Office today. And BTW, Al Gore won the most votes in Florida, even with the butterfly ballot. Tortured logic like Penn is presenting speaks to the chilling realization that the Clinton coronation may indeed be canceled. HRC has a huge dillemma. Their instinct is to attack, but they risk self-inflicted wounds (ala Bill in S.C.) if they go that route. Watch for the surrogates planting the poison pills in coming days.

And does anyone really believe that in the past seven years Big Foot Bill has lived as a born again Virgin. Only those who believe in Fairy Tales could think that he has not racked up a slew of new potential Bimbo Eruptions. That would hand the Congress back to the Republicans in a Slam Dunk. Stay away from the Clintons. No one of any substance would want the VP slot, as third banana behind Hillary and Big Foot Bill, which means that we would be left with no future leadership. They destroyed the party once, and we are just now reclaiming the House and Senate. The Clintons would set us back at least two decades, and the Republicans would own The Supreme Court. Then you could kiss your civil liberties farewell. We can not afford to play Clinton Roulette anymore.

Mark Penn, the oracle - can he tell us how the independents will go between HRC and McCain? Hah!
Look at the numbers! The open primary in VA will give us an idea on this point. There are plenty of people - in both parties - who are sick and tired of the same old bickering. BRC will not just united the GOP and have them come out in DROVES against her, she will alos lose the indies and a significant number in her own party will (no longer) support her after this kind of a campaign, reminding us all about the thinks we did nOT like about the CLinton era. TIme for a fresh start - we deserve it!

Mark Penn, the oracle - can he tell us how the independents will go between HRC and McCain? Hah!
Look at the numbers! The open primary in VA will give us an idea on this point. There are plenty of people - in both parties - who are sick and tired of the same old bickering. BRC will not just united the GOP and have them come out in DROVES against her, she will alos lose the indies and a significant number in her own party will (no longer) support her after this kind of a campaign, reminding us all about the thinks we did nOT like about the CLinton era. TIme for a fresh start - we deserve it!

Mark Penn, the oracle - can he tell us how the independents will go between HRC and McCain? Hah!
Look at the numbers! The open primary in VA will give us an idea on this point. There are plenty of people - in both parties - who are sick and tired of the same old bickering. BRC will not just united the GOP and have them come out in DROVES against her, she will alos lose the indies and a significant number in her own party will (no longer) support her after this kind of a campaign, reminding us all about the thinks we did nOT like about the CLinton era. TIme for a fresh start - we deserve it!

I agree that Obama does not have to be negative about McCain. It is enough to say,for example Senator, your position on immigration on the senate was a very reasonable one. I hope you go back to it. And he has other vulnerabilities. How he can justify the position of his party in torture? Irak is gonna become an issue again. Did you read that they are stopping the reduction in troops and the attacks are starting again. It is a signal that the things are not as well as they want us to believe. And, humbly, I think Obama is better position to contrast himself with McCain than HRC.

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If Obama has proven anything in this primary so far, it's that he's an excellent campaigner and made of teflon. Despite a formidable oppo research team, the Clinton campaign hasn't been able to make a mark on his reputation. When Bill Clinton, one of the best Democratic campaigners in recent history, went after Obama, he got his ass handed to him, and we haven't heard a squeak from the guy since. The Republicans will certainly go after Obama to an extent that no one has before, but that is true for any candidate, not excluding one Hillary Clinton. The evidence so far is that poor Obambi is actually quite good at deflecting attacks without losing his focus.

Furthermore, I fail to understand why the dubious distinction of being crapped on by more Republicans than any other living Democrat is an election attribute. Hillary Clinton's big moment in the national spotlight was her original health care plan, during which she allowed herself to be smeared so completely by the Republicans that the measure failed abjectly, and the Clinton administration removed her from high profile initiatives for the remainder of the presidency. Since running for Senator, she hasn't faced the Republican attack machine in all its glory. As nominee, she would get it much harder than she has ever received it before, and though everyone says that she has learned from her mistakes, know one can tell me exactly what she learned from her mistakes. When she goes into attack mode, she doesn't come off as heroic and brave; she seems angry and a little shrill. That is not the way to go into battle the Republican attack machine; it plays into their stereotypes.

Dear Hillary,

Mark Penn's comments as expressed above are further glaring evidence that you fired the wrong member of your campaign staff. An overpaid, foul-smelling turd in an expensive suit is still a foul-smelling turd.

Please rectify ASAP.

Regards,
United States of America

I'll use the hospital analogy I heard yesterday:

You're in the hospital in bad need of healing - who would you rather have, the Doc who makes you "feel good" with their charismatic bedside manor, or the doc who has the cure for what ails you.

Screw the bedside manor - we need a cure. Now.

Let's try it again:

You're in the hospital in bad need of healing. Who would you rather have, the doc who has not only practiced in the trenches for many years but has taught the fundamentals of medicine and can improve your odds by inspiring hope, or the doc for whom a good share of claimed experience was being married to a another doc.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Penn is right about one thing . independents and discontented republoicans will vanish in November if Hillary is the candidate. I will be proud to cast my first vote for a Democrat should that party be wise enough to put Barack Obama on the ballot. According to the Financial Times this past weekend, this is the candidate (Obama) the democrats have been waiting for. What else is there to day?

surflaw: The problem with your analogy is that we do not hear that she can cure the patient. All we can hear is:"I did this operation before and the patient died on me, but hopefully I learned from it" Or the other variation: "I watch my husband doing it several times" That for me is not very reassuring

"is already playing the national security card against Obama."

WTF does he mean by that??? That only endless war-supporting Hillary can go up against endless war-supporting McCain???

HRC on the Supreme Court??? Hmmm. Best part: it's a place that would be her very own! Bill has never and will never step foot in there!

And I think she would be good: certainly has the brains and work ethic and would hold her own in negotiations. And she would be permanently OUT of politics, away from *competition.* I'd imagine that would be very freeing for her. Kudos, mns.

I truly believe she would/will be a disaster as president, but this ........ HAH!! I might even have to listen to Rush L. a time or two if this is ever serious proposed. Wonder if car radios melt?

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Mostly what Penn is saying is pretty unremarkable.

I don't know who, owning any common sense, doesn't believe that Obama will be hit by the Republican attack machine come the general election. Don't you think we'll be hearing all about his cocaine use, and the rather nutso pastor of his church, and Rezko, and God only knows what else real or imaginary, once the machine gets cranked up? While Obama and his supporters can shout down this kind of criticism in the Democratic primary, and protect their precious candidate, the right wing doesn't live by those PC rules.

Now Democrats have such a wind at their backs in this election that Obama might survive all this. But if he wins, that's only going to mean that the attack machine continues along after Obama becomes President, picking away at his image, making up scandals and crimes as they've done so easily in the past. Every suggestion of, say, arrogance or entitlement or abrasiveness or coldness that today may get a ready pass will be focused on at length and under the microscope once Obama enters office.

I don't know how people imagine that Obama is not going to be a different man in the eyes of the public after all this. Uncritical, glowing praise from the media can get him only so far; it can never fully blunt the inevitable attacks from the right. In fact, once the right wing machine turns him into someone totally unrecognizable to his current supporters, it's highly likely that media too will turn on him.

One of the great ironies of Obama's candidacy is that he is often championed by the same people who once got behind Howard Dean. Yet back in the day, everyone knew that it would be absolutely crucial for a "fighter" to rise to prominence in the Democratic Party, so that he could "fight back" against the Republicans. Now, because Obama has chosen to take the opposite "bipartisan", "unifier" approach, "fighting" is no longer operative or important.

It's like they're part of a personality cult or something, where any idea can be overturned at the merest suggestion of their chosen hero.

I love it when HRC cultists call Obama supporters "cultists."

It's a moot point. Hillary can't beat Obama, can't beat McCain, and even if she could, she couldn't get her version of healthcare passed, because she wants to do it by "going after people's wages".

The healthcare industry will be all over that statement in their attack ads, should the extremely remote possibility ever arise that she is elected president.

Don't expect her to sweep other Democrats into office with her, btw. She doesn't have pull outside of the blue states. So, how is she going to pass anything? Anyone who votes Hillary is voting for a hobbled, polarized, scandal-ridden one-term presidency.

This isn't to say that she doesn't know a fair amount, or doesn't have some experience. It's just that she will be completely incapable of executing her job from day one, other than in a very basic sense of the word. The Republicans would stonewall her for a few years, then sweep in promising political reform... which is something that Hillary Clinton simply does not believe in and cannot credibly promise anyone.


Mark Penn's making the case for his right to obscurity and ignominy.

Barack Obama is known for, if nothing else, his charisma and his crossover appeal. That's one of his biggest assets.

Kerry and Gore, God bless them (I voted for these two) are not the most charismatic folks on the campaign trail. Clinton, God bless her, isn't much better. They're all super-cautious establishment types. Maybe it made sense to vote for them when it seemed the Republicans were the dominant political force in the land, but now's not the time to be cautious. Now's the time to get voters into the party while the getting's good.

Don't merely consider the state of current affairs, folks, consider the dynamic we want out of this election.

So I guess it's okay for Obama supporters to scare voters with predictions of Hillary being beaten because she's so despised by the right-wing, but it's NOT okay for Hillary supporters to scare voters with predictions of right-wing attacks on Obama.

Hmmm. Sounds fair, right? I thought for a moment I was on one of the FOX News blogs.

Nobody who supports Obama believes that the rightwingers won't go after him. That said, we do believe that scare tactics about Obama's record won't work.

He's got a serious political teflon coating, and, frankly, I don't think the Republicans will know what to do with him, because they'd be very concerned about their efforts backfiring.

We've already seen what happens to anyone who tries going negative on him, (i.e. Bill Clinton) and it ain't pretty. It hurts the attacker more than the attacked. Republicans will be thrown off their game, and have to start debating the issues... and that's where they lose.

As for saying that Hillary won't beat either Obama or McCain, well... that's what all the polls are saying. I don't think that many of the Obama voters would be all that motivated to support her, even if Obama was on the ticket. I'd probably support a 3rd party candidate in that case, and hope that Obama could win back the White House from McCain in four years, once everyone is good and tired of war.

Surflaw and Frankly0:

Being aware of the Republican attack machine is not the same as being scared of Republicans. Being aware means that you research your arguments and opponents thoroughly from all sides, and support your side with passionate, reasoned points and a calm, steady demeanor. That way, when the shit does come, at least you know how best to quickly treat the stains.

Being scared of Republicans means dressing up in shit-stained clothes and patting yourself on the back for ingenuity. Being scared of Republicans means instead of standing up to them, you vote along with them on issues that you’re not brave enough or smart enough to defend yourself in a persuasive, rational and definitive manner. Being scared means accepting this tortured logic: everyone has already talked about the stink of my shit before so that must mean the shit can’t get any worse.

It’s this type of fairy-tale mentality that let’s one ignore the rising stink of their own shit getting worse and worse. And then one day, you wake up and the stink is unavoidable. Your nostrils burn with the smell of 5 straight primary losses, an empty campaign bank account, and an election strategy that so far relegated the only other candidate who used it-Rudy Giuliani-to a painfully solo spot in American political history.

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Boy, that's a pathetically irrelevant and inadequate answer to the problem.

I hope your guy has something better planned than what you've come up with, which is zippo.

A lot of people have mentioned that Hillary has thrown everything she has at Obama and it hasn't stuck. Do you really think that's true?

I'm sure she has plenty more, as do the Republicans, but I'm sure that she and Obama both realize that it is not in the best interests of the party to get that dirty in the primaries.

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Angry Mouse, I don't know that she's thrown everything that she has, but I would say that nothing that she has thrown has stuck. In fact, most of what she's thrown as actually backfired, which is why she has stopped throwing things.

That doesn't guarantee that Obama will be able handle to the harder stuff as adeptly, but given the info that we have, it's a solid track record so far, which is all we can expect of any candidate.

Jodyphile:

If you’re such a Fox fan, let me phrase this is a way that you’ll understand.

It is one thing to be concerned about unsubstantiated rumors or smears that someone might experience from morally suspect political opponents. That can be countered, that can be neutralized. Definitely not 100% but it can be dealt with if properly prepared.

It is something else completely when, before a single commercial is run, and for over 10 years running, your candidate starts with over 40% of the country saying they would NEVER get their vote.

I know that people love to talk about the percentage of voters who will not, under any circumstances, vote for Hillary.

However, I find it interesting that they do not report on numbers of voters who say that about the various Republican nominees. I find it hard to believe that there is no one in the country who says now they they will not vote for McCain, no matter what.

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Guestimate is probably about 30%. The clintons are at anywhere from 47% to 51%, depending on the poll. Big difference.

Why are we even reading about a prognostication from a Clinton operative, on Obama? Isnt there an implied vested interest in his analysis? We all should detox ourselves from pollsters and kingmakers / queenmakers.

McCain's myth as a maverick is a media creation. He is as flip flop and opportunistic as the next politician.

Not true, Penn needs to get out in the real world. The votes that will vanish will be McCain moderates and independents, as he hugs Bush and gushes about Rove, while proclaiming his support for 1000 years in Iraq.

Ghenghis.... Do you think some of the recent indorsements (or lack of indorsements) by prominent politicians are tempered by their being (or not being) among the targets of the infamous lost FBI files of the early Clinton regime?

At least Obama has support from independents. It is pure speculation that such support might evaporate. It is not speculation that Clinton does not have their support. Her "elect me because I've been through more than Job" argument is getting pretty tiresome.

Obama detractors are way off the mark. He's the Tiger Woods candidate - he makes Wisconsin housewives swoon about what's "possible" when black boys are raised to be white.

This isn't about BLACK - its about WHITE! Joe Biden fumbled the explanation - telling us that Barack was a 'fresh' and 'clean' black candidate.

But that's the truth of it. Nobody can touch him. He has the family, the wife - the look of what every white person wants for black people.

This election is about US - and what WE HAVE ACHIEVED RACIALLY.

that's why nobody can put a glove on him... we have too much invested in his success.

Even the name -- I love it. It's a measure of out enlightenment.... remember all those progressive Jews telling us that names DON'T MATTER? - that white America demonized people whose names sound 'funny'....

I bet their choking on their gefilte fish.

I don't think Obama has been dutifully drinking his Israeli kool aid.

Great. Santafe21 gets anti-Semetic in support of Obama. Maybe some of you are just Republican plants and provocateurs?

And here it is, from markkraft, the ultimate stupidity:

"As for saying that Hillary won't beat either Obama or McCain, well... that's what all the polls are saying. I don't think that many of the Obama voters would be all that motivated to support her, even if Obama was on the ticket. I'd probably support a 3rd party candidate in that case, and hope that Obama could win back the White House from McCain in four years, once everyone is good and tired of war."

Great. Did you vote for Nader in 2000, and help give us eight years of George Bush? Some Obama supporters need to get into the real world, fast.

Mark Penn is right obama will lose the nomination, the people who are acting like sheep and have bought hook line and sinker all the bull from obama and the media. Now hes threatening the super delegates, like he is all that to change the rules in the middle of the game.
Former war hero, astronaut, and Senator John Glenn endorses Hillary Clinton.

Joe Wilson and Valerie Plame endorses Hillary Clinton:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/oped/bal-op.hillary12feb12,0,94551.story

But the media keep pumping up obama, while obama continues to get away with lying.

Obama lies on his healthcare plan
http://facts.hillaryhub.com/archive/?id=5908
obama lies on rezko and Exelon
http://facts.hillaryhub.com/archive/?id=5931
obama lies on bipartisanship
http://facts.hillaryhub.com/archive/?id=5897
obama lies again in WA.
http://facts.hillaryhub.com/archive/?id=5845

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