So Hillary's campaign wants to play the fear mongering game. How Rove like.

Hey Hillary; Beat Obama on your own merits, instead of of using the GOP Scare tactics in Lieu of you being able to win on your own merits.

If you accept the premise that Clinton is a smart and capable leader, then the fact that half the country doesn't like her and won't vote for her under any circumstances proves that the GOP attack machine has already skewed perceptions of her just like they did with Gore and Kerry, so I don't understand their point.

Don't vote for him because they might be able to do to him what they've already effectively done to me?

Great analysis by Arnon Mishkin at RealClearPolitics:

Can Obama Close?

"With regards to the racial issue, Sen. Obama needs to heed the lessons learned in the 1982 Tom Bradley campaign for governor of California. Like Sen. Obama, Mayor Bradley was a candidate who "happened to be black." He decided not to address the issue of his race head-on, fearing it would only call attention to it. In the last days of the campaign, his opponent figured out how to inject race into the campaign, and Bradley lost, despite leading in the polls for months. This year, Sen. Obama needs to figure out how to explicitly ventilate that issue, so that voters resolve it to his, and not an opponent's, advantage."

"Similarly, he needs to address risk. Sen. Obama needs to convince Democrats that it is okay to "retire" the Clintons, something they are uncomfortable doing. Metaphorically, he must hand the Clintons a "gold watch" and appear sincere in doing so. This is important to Democratic primary voters, most of whom have no interest in "punishing" Senator Clinton or her husband. Finding a way to assure people that a vote for Obama is not a vote against Hillary will, to some degree, determine whether Sen. Obama can 'close'."

Full article:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/02/can_obama_close.html

Well, its an argument anyway.

For many people, HRC raises the spector of what that same attack machine did in ruining the end of Bill's presidency.

So if those are the twin worst case scenarios, I think Obama has the better of that argument. I promise you, from western TN, it is next to impossible to overstate how very much the Clintons are hated by independents in this part of the country. Or how much her presence on the ticket would be the thing that would stir the crazed on the right to actually mobilize and vote for McCain in November.

Kerry, Gore, Obama... Not a real stretch at all. Yep, giving the election to the Republicans on a silver platter.

This all seems a little backward. Hillary unquestionably has more points that avail herself to the GOP slaughter machine. I think they're going easier on her right now because she'd make such a good target if she were to be the nominee and so they'd like her to get that far. The attack machine will come one way or another, but at least with Obama their attacks will be less, ya know, based in reality.

HRC hasn't "withstood" jack. She got her ass handed to her on her only significant policy initiative and was forced to retreat for the balance of the Clinton presidency. Indeed, the damage is already done -- her negatives are very high, and they're not going anywhere.

Penn and others can assert that Obama is like a delicate flower that will somehow wither under the glare of the GOP kleig lights, but there is no evidence of that. If anything, Obama has demonstrated remarkable skill in standing up to the Clinton machine -- they're no slouches in the arena of gutter politics.

Clintonistas, donate more money! Mark Penn's unparalleled brilliance doesn't come cheap! Feed him more! ($10 million and counting......)

HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAA!! It IS opposite day!!

Wow, that was good, haha. Is Penn talking about possible skewed perceptions of Obama? Did he fail to look at the polls (he is a pollster right??) that show Hillary's unfavorable rating is already at 50%, BEFORE the Republicans have a chance to go after he again? Looks to me like the Republicans did a damn good job on her already, what makes he think she can defend against them? It looks like they've won the first couple rounds, and the only reason she is still standing with 50% is because they haven't had a reason to go after her for a while, and they are waiting for us to be stupid enough to nominate her.

Haha, way to "withstand" the GOP attacks Hillary, you already have one foot in the electoral grave from the Republicans' standpoint. And you are actually arguing that Obama's independent support might evaporate??? YOU DON'T HAVE ANY INDEPENDENT SUPPORT TO BEGIN WITH IDIOT!!!!

HAHAHAHAA! Give me a BREAK! Talk about throwing stones from a glass house built on jenga stilts!! What a total idiot.

See, this is that 180 degree Orwellian craziness that I'm talking about...attacking someone on their strengths and your own weaknesses. Haha.

Take a look at the polls Penn, they all say McCain would destroy Hillary, even before the GOP machine takes another swing at her. Ohhhh, that brightened my day. Thanks Mark.

That's funny, I sure missed Hillary beating Rove & Bush.

I'm waiting for Mark Penn to say Al Qaeda will attack if Barack is the nominee. Oh wait- did Hillary already say that?

What a weak argument. Does he really think Hillary will be immune to those attacks just because she's been attacked before? It doesn't work like that.

She'll still be attacked just as much as Obama. And she'll suffer just as much if not more because those attacks will coincide with the public's pre-conceived notions of who she is.

Wow, that's a devestatingly effective argument, except the parts where it completely mistates what actually happened in those two races and smears our last two presidential candidates. But hey Mark, I strongly encourage you to keep publicly insulting Al Gore and, especially, to pointedly ignore the role that Bill and Hill's drama played in Gore's loss when you do so. That's gotta help you garner superdelegates, right.

Oh please, or please, Lord, let the switch in campaign chairs mean that Mark Penn is resuming his former role of dominence in Hillary's campaign.

I'd expect the Blackwater guy to play the fear card..

Kerry & Gore were "insiders", rank & file Dems. Just like Hillary Clinton.

Mark Penn doesn't want to look at it that way, but all three of them were/are the standard, inside party officials.

Matthew, once again, light on critical thinking, heavy on blind echoing of talking points. If you close your eyes and say "The sky is green, the sky is green" enough times when you open them is it actually green? I feel like that is what you are doing here.

"Kerry, Gore, Obama... Not a real stretch at all. Yep, giving the election to the Republicans on a silver platter."

Yeahhh, way to be a complete zombie.

Nislieb, you are absolutely right. If Hillary is nominated, after running on a fluffed resume "full" of "experience", and goes up against McCain, how far do her supporters think "experience" is going to go against McCain's actual experience. Really in all honesty she can't even beat Obama on experience, if you actually research her background and see what she is trying to pass off as experience...but McCain? Hell no. She is very short sighted, and if she is given the opportunity to go up against McCain, he will tear her apart. Experience my ass.

Penn said that Hillary has "withstood" this process, while Obama would find that his independent support "would evaporate relatively quickly once he faced the Republicans."

Fair enough. His job is to advance arguments for her candidacy. I hope, however, that he does not believe his own spin here. It is not clear in the least that she has "withstood" anything. She has not run against a really strong Republican opponent, and especially not for a job as high-profile as the presidency. I dare say that both of them are going to get blasted and I do not give either especially better odds vis-a-vis withstanding the inferno.

The latest Clinton Campaign tactic; In A Nutshell:

We can not give you a good reason why Hillary is a better candidate than Senator Obama, or why you should vote for her;

Therefore we want you to to vote for her because Senator Obama might lose to John McCain, after Hillary has lost to Senator Obama. Clinton Logic: I am a primary loser, but I am better that the primary winner. Wonderful stuff. On a par with Big Foot Bill saying that he was always against the Iraq War. That means that he was saying that he knew better than his wife, who voted for the War.

If if was not for the ability to tell lies, Bill Clinton would be left with nothing to say ever.

45rpm:

Sen. Obama "unscripted"?

C'mon.

Sen. Obama: Our time has come. (APPLAUSE) Our time has come. Our movement is real, and change is coming to America.

Jesse Jackson: “Our time has come. Our time has come. Suffering breeds character. Character breeds faith. In the end, faith will not disappoint. Our time has come. Our faith, hope, and dreams will prevail. Our time has come. Weeping has endured for nights, but now joy cometh in the morning. Our time has come. No grave can hold our body down. Our time has come. No lie can live forever. Our time has come. We must leave racial battle ground and come to economic common ground and moral higher ground. America, our time has come. We come from disgrace to amazing grace. Our time has come. Give me your tired, give me your poor, your huddled masses who yearn to breathe free and come November, there will be a change because our time has come."

The similarities of how Karl Rove and Mark Penn strategize, campaign and comment are breath taking. Neither one has a shred of integrity and will say anything that they believe will assist their candidate no matter how far from the truth it is. The current quote from Penn is an excellent example.

Hillary Clinton is the candidate/campaign that is to that of Kerry or Gore. She was the hands down favorite of the Washington insiders at the start of the race. She tried to oust Howard Dean from the chairmanship of the DNC to put on of her ardent supporters (Harold Ford) and entrench DLC power effectively locking out grassroots from having a voice within the Democratic Party's leadership.

Simply put, she is the old time politician, just like Gore and Kerry, fighting to keep a popular grassroots candidate (Bradley and Dean) by using a questionable "electibility" argument when all indicators point to the fact that the grassroots candidate was and is more popular to those outside of the party base and therefore have a greater chance of winning.

For Hillary to come out and try to paint Obama as the candidacy similar Kerry is so Rovian in nature the jaw drops. It ranks right up there from where the Clintons tried to claim that they opposed the Iraq War from the start and spoke out against it. After a week of having it thrown in their face that they were blatantly lying, with numerous videos proving that they were. The Clinton campaign went out bemoaning how the news was being unfair to them by exposing the truth. Again, how Rovian.

It is far past time to stop rewarding politicians that use such tactics.

Clinton should have thrown the porcine Penn under the bus wheels after SC. His prominence in her campaign is a big mistake and the fact that she keeps him on calls her judgment into question in my mind.

I find it real hard for anyone to legitimately suggest Obama resembles the non-personalities of Gore and Kerry. They were unelectable from day one. I think the only reason they did so well was because Bush was so weak in the first place. Can you imagine if Gore or Kerry were as inspirational as Obama?

This isn't 2000 or 2004 either. McCain has Rove? Not a chance. He possibly has the reluctant use of the voter tampering apparatus that Bush/Rove put in place over the years but I don't think it will come into play. That only worked in a close election, which 2008 is not. That also worked when the chief criminals had friends in power, something not as guaranteed as in 2000/2004.

Mark Penn gets paid $5million for this stuff?

I think Obama has stood up to the Clinton establishment's attacks pretty well.

How about a reprise: Bob Kerry tried to associate Obama as a muslim by falsely claiming Obama attended a madrassa (and then apologized for his knowingly factually inaccurate statement), Mark Penn tried to inject Obama's admitted drug use as an issue over whether or not he was just a user (by attempting to insert a question as to whether he was perhaps also a seller), Bill Clinton went after Obama's anti-war stance by notoriously calling it a fairy tale, Bill tried to dismiss him as a risk and roll of the dice on Charlie Rose, post SC Bill dismissed Obama's win on the issue of race by attempting to draw a parallel with Jesse Jackson's win in the state in '84, Bob Johnson tried to denigrate Obama's credentials as a community activist by revisiting the drug issue (again), Andrew Young tried to say that Obama wasn't really black and that Bill had probably been with more black woment than Obama, Hillary called caucuses "disenfranchising" to excuse her losses and downplay Obama's wins as the result of a quirky voting processes, and Clinton supporter and NYT columnist Paul Krugman just today called Obama's supporters victims and perpetuators of a personality cult.

Hey Penn, to borrow Bill's own line, "give me a break, thing is the biggest fairy tale that I have ever seen." When are they sending you packing? What a colossal waste of money you've become.

Why do I feel like there's a gnat buzzing around my head any time I read a quote from Mark Penn?

Creating a Gore/Obama image in the head of voters is not a good strategy. Given the high regard for Gore among many of her own supporters, this can backfire.

Speaking of Gore, check this article on why they say he lost:

DLC founder From wrote in his analysis of the election that Democrats need to build a new majority, not rely on the Democratic coalitions from years past.

The Democratic coalition "must expand beyond our Democratic base ... and must include men as well as women, whites as well as African-Americans and Hispanics, suburbanites as well as city dwellers, moderates and even some conservatives as well as liberals." - Link

Isn't that what Obama is succeeding in doing?

P.S. How smart is it to piss Gore off while his endorsement is still withstanding? The Clinton campaign's remarks about LBJ (entirely leaving out JFK) is what helped convinced Kennedy to endorse Obama.

I wonder, do the Clinton's know that Gore's endorsement of Obama is imminent?

Bulletin from the desk of:

Mark Poison Penn:

Do not root for the New York Giants to go to the Super Bowl, because they will not be able to stand up to the New England Patriots high powered attack. Send the team that the Giants defeated instead.

Penn added that the GOP "is already playing the national security card against Obama."

I think Penn is implicitly arguing that no one can "play the national security card" against Hillary because she...

...drumroll...

Voted for the Iraq War!

oh and USA Today/Gallup has Obama 47, Clinton 44--
http://blogs.usatoday.com/onpolitics/2008/02/usa-todaygall-1.html?csp=34

not sure if that is the same "Gallup" for Feb 11 you have up on the side, but if it is, something is once again wrong.

They didn't throw Penn under the bus because it would have upended the bus, killing all aboard and ending the campaign prematurely, before its eventual official ending on March 3rd.

Mr. Micro trends... hello, you obviously missed the boat that voters want change.

And talking about change, Mark Penn, why don't you do something useful for the Clintons and refund your ridiculous $2.3million fee? God knows they need the money and you certainly haven't earned a penny of it.

mmacdDE over at dailykos oput it even better than I did above http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2008/2/11/10835/8086/181#c181:

Gore - listened to consultants
Kerry - listened to consultants
Clinton - listens to consultants

Obama - knows who to listen to (hint - NOT the high paid, insulated, consultants).

mmacdDE over at dailykos oput it even better than I did above http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2008/2/11/10835/8086/181#c181:

Gore - listened to consultants
Kerry - listened to consultants
Clinton - listens to consultants

Obama - knows who to listen to (hint - NOT the high paid, insulated, consultants).

I am not sure how Hillary can even run on competence at this point. Apparently she went into New Hampshire unaware that her campaign had blow through over 100 million and was nearly broke. Her campaign seems to be a case of egos and money out of control.

Perhaps going negative is all they have left...

Has Penn ever served on a campaign that's won? Isn't past performance an indicator of something?

Penn is using the "electability" argument because his candidate is floundering, in no small part because of Penn. From what I heard from fellow D's in 2004, we needed to nominate Kerry because he was "electable" and Howard Dean was not. Clinton follows the Kerry role in voting for the Iraq War, and for having a DLC type like Mark Penn running her campaign. When someone uses the term "electable" about their candidate, it means that they will lose. The same as when a candidate says they're in this until the convention - that means they're going to drop out in the next day or two.

At the risk of sounding like a heretic, I'd rather hear Clinton and Obama discussing issues. I realize they are have similar policy beliefs in many areas, but it'd serve America much better to be talking substance and provide policy leadership than emulating the mainstream media and engaging in empty banter.

Hillary Clinton can't even beat Barack Obama in the Democratic primary. The general election includes Republicans and Independents, how on Earth does she think she can win there?

The straw man arguments from the HRC camp are becoming absurd and ridiculous. If you're going to criticize Obama over something, can it for once be for something that isn't hypothetical?

Next up from Mark Penn:
"The Obama insurgency is in its last throes. It will all be over by Feb. 05, 2008."

Obama acts like someone who knows his positions have popular support. Hillary acts like someone who's afraid they don't.

You're right. For all her bravado, I think that Hillary is scared of the Republicans.

Obama is not scared of the Republicans, nor should he be.

Mark Penn can spin until he's dizzy and it will not make Hillary's negatives disappear. In the general election she starts out with a huge handicap because there are Hillary Haters on the right and on the left.

Obama has a much better chance because he is a brilliant campaigner on the stump, is quick to respond to attacks, and has the wind at his back. That is to say, Obama has momentum and and McCain has an anchor.

The ultraconservative voters will not vote for McCain but would rather offer him up as a human sacrifice, then return in 2012 with a "real conservative" (translate that as a born-again, anti-immigrant, pro-war) candidate. The thing that might shake them out to vote would be Hillary and Bill Clinton campaigning nationwide 24/7; that could jar their nerves.

Mark Penn, the oracle - can he tell us how the independents will go between HRC and McCain? Hah!
Look at the numbers! The open primary in VA will give us an idea on this point. There are plenty of people - in both parties - who are sick and tired of the same old bickering. BRC will not just united the GOP and have them come out in DROVES against her, she will alos lose the indies and a significant number in her own party will (no longer) support her after this kind of a campaign, reminding us all about the thinks we did nOT like about the CLinton era. TIme for a fresh start - we deserve it!

Mark Penn, the oracle - can he tell us how the independents will go between HRC and McCain? Hah!
Look at the numbers! The open primary in VA will give us an idea on this point. There are plenty of people - in both parties - who are sick and tired of the same old bickering. BRC will not just united the GOP and have them come out in DROVES against her, she will alos lose the indies and a significant number in her own party will (no longer) support her after this kind of a campaign, reminding us all about the thinks we did nOT like about the CLinton era. TIme for a fresh start - we deserve it!

Dear Hillary,

Mark Penn's comments as expressed above are further glaring evidence that you fired the wrong member of your campaign staff. An overpaid, foul-smelling turd in an expensive suit is still a foul-smelling turd.

Please rectify ASAP.

Regards,
United States of America

Penn is right about one thing . independents and discontented republoicans will vanish in November if Hillary is the candidate. I will be proud to cast my first vote for a Democrat should that party be wise enough to put Barack Obama on the ballot. According to the Financial Times this past weekend, this is the candidate (Obama) the democrats have been waiting for. What else is there to day?

HRC on the Supreme Court??? Hmmm. Best part: it's a place that would be her very own! Bill has never and will never step foot in there!

And I think she would be good: certainly has the brains and work ethic and would hold her own in negotiations. And she would be permanently OUT of politics, away from *competition.* I'd imagine that would be very freeing for her. Kudos, mns.

I truly believe she would/will be a disaster as president, but this ........ HAH!! I might even have to listen to Rush L. a time or two if this is ever serious proposed. Wonder if car radios melt?

Mostly what Penn is saying is pretty unremarkable.

I don't know who, owning any common sense, doesn't believe that Obama will be hit by the Republican attack machine come the general election. Don't you think we'll be hearing all about his cocaine use, and the rather nutso pastor of his church, and Rezko, and God only knows what else real or imaginary, once the machine gets cranked up? While Obama and his supporters can shout down this kind of criticism in the Democratic primary, and protect their precious candidate, the right wing doesn't live by those PC rules.

Now Democrats have such a wind at their backs in this election that Obama might survive all this. But if he wins, that's only going to mean that the attack machine continues along after Obama becomes President, picking away at his image, making up scandals and crimes as they've done so easily in the past. Every suggestion of, say, arrogance or entitlement or abrasiveness or coldness that today may get a ready pass will be focused on at length and under the microscope once Obama enters office.

I don't know how people imagine that Obama is not going to be a different man in the eyes of the public after all this. Uncritical, glowing praise from the media can get him only so far; it can never fully blunt the inevitable attacks from the right. In fact, once the right wing machine turns him into someone totally unrecognizable to his current supporters, it's highly likely that media too will turn on him.

One of the great ironies of Obama's candidacy is that he is often championed by the same people who once got behind Howard Dean. Yet back in the day, everyone knew that it would be absolutely crucial for a "fighter" to rise to prominence in the Democratic Party, so that he could "fight back" against the Republicans. Now, because Obama has chosen to take the opposite "bipartisan", "unifier" approach, "fighting" is no longer operative or important.

It's like they're part of a personality cult or something, where any idea can be overturned at the merest suggestion of their chosen hero.

Mark Penn's making the case for his right to obscurity and ignominy.

Barack Obama is known for, if nothing else, his charisma and his crossover appeal. That's one of his biggest assets.

Kerry and Gore, God bless them (I voted for these two) are not the most charismatic folks on the campaign trail. Clinton, God bless her, isn't much better. They're all super-cautious establishment types. Maybe it made sense to vote for them when it seemed the Republicans were the dominant political force in the land, but now's not the time to be cautious. Now's the time to get voters into the party while the getting's good.

Don't merely consider the state of current affairs, folks, consider the dynamic we want out of this election.

A lot of people have mentioned that Hillary has thrown everything she has at Obama and it hasn't stuck. Do you really think that's true?

I'm sure she has plenty more, as do the Republicans, but I'm sure that she and Obama both realize that it is not in the best interests of the party to get that dirty in the primaries.

Not true, Penn needs to get out in the real world. The votes that will vanish will be McCain moderates and independents, as he hugs Bush and gushes about Rove, while proclaiming his support for 1000 years in Iraq.

At least Obama has support from independents. It is pure speculation that such support might evaporate. It is not speculation that Clinton does not have their support. Her "elect me because I've been through more than Job" argument is getting pretty tiresome.