Are there any New Hampshirites/Iowans out there who can give us there perspective on Billary insisting these delegates be seated, despite the earlier promises made? Is this a big deal to you guys? I am curious,

I'm undecided about who & which party I’m voting for, but found this great article called "Black Voters and a Twist of Bias" on the BlogZine SAVAGE POLITICS. It explain what happened in SC and FL.

http://savagepolitics.com/?p=59
WOW- all I have to say!
Here is an excerpt: “Last Saturday’s South Carolina Democratic Primary produced the widely expected result of a Barack Obama victory. From the beginning of the week, it was the ethnic composition of the State in question which was amply discussed by both the Media and it’s multiple pundits. It was here and through other sources that we discovered that 55% percent of Democratic voters in South Carolina were African American. An interesting number when you consider the “coincidence” that Obama actually won the election by exactly the same margin: 55%. Of course, many in Clinton’s campaign have used this demographic reality to spin their defeat, vociferating that they had always expected to loose from the start. It should be noted that it has been this exact attitude which they have ridiculed Obama’s camp for, insinuating that they had proved to be “sore losers” by not admitting their own failures in stating their case to the American People. As we all know, in modern politics, no campaign is free of idiotic childishness, sadly resurfacing the reality that our current political existence is dominated by whining imbeciles of the lowest ilk. Nevertheless, the Clinton Campaign’s affirmation (victory based on a unified ethnic constituency) is valid, especially when we consider the data.
The Primary’s exit polling, presented by all major networks, were utilized by analysts to determine how was Obama’s, Edwards’, and Clinton’s support spread throughout different social markers. Their results indicated that 80% of the Black vote, and only 20% of the White vote, went towards Barack Obama. Regarding most White voters in the State, you could easily identify their split between John Edwards and Hillary Clinton. The significance of this racial division is crucial in understanding the fate of Barack Obama’s campaign, and the Democratic Party, if they chose to face the General Election with him at the helm.…” Find the rest of the article at http://savagepolitics.com/?p=59

Thank the property tax measure.

So far Drudge is not taking the bait.

Thank you, Obama Campaign, for the humor. Some levity is needed as crunch time rolls around1

Been a long time since there was a real convention with a real delegate fight. Way it goes is the majority gets to make the rules. I'm wondering if the Edwards delegates are bound to vote with him on seating the delegations if there is a rules challenge. My guess is they are only bound to cast their votes for him in the nomination and can vote any way they want to on the rules. If so, Clinton won't have much trouble putting a majority together to change the rule and seat Michigan and Florida.

So several million Democrats voted today in Florida, and you all are willing to just deny them a voice, just cause they went largely for Hillary?? Come on. You know you'd be singing a different tune if your candidates came out ahead. Punish the Florida legislature for moving up the primary? Sure. But punish the voters themselves by ignoring them? Not cool.

With 33% of precincts reporting, according to CNN just now, the number of votes cast on the democratic side has already exceeded total turnout for the 2004 Florida Democratic Primary.

Kerry had already wrapped up the nomination by the time Florida voted in 2004.

Neither Obama nor Edwards had any say in the DNC stripping the delegates.

But Hillary trying to change the rules in the middle of the game is rank cheating.

You know, I'm not an Obama fan at all, and I frankly don't like his campaign-- but the Hillary Clinton people are really looking pathetic and desperate here.

It's not just zero delegates in Florida-- it was ***zero campaigning*** by the Edwards and Obama teams in Florida. Of course Hillary gets the most votes, she has the most name recognition and the Obama voters, especially the younger generation, just didn't turn out in the contest because Obama himself took the pledge not to campaign. (Which Hillary seems to have broken FWIW.)

If anything, Florida to me looks like an interesting and useful "natural experiment" that shows just how surprisingly effective the Obama campaign has been (to my own personal dismay FWIW), and just how terrible the Clinton campaign has been.

She goes into each of the primaries with a big name recognition advantage, worth almost 20% or so, and yet her campaign is so awful that Obama erases advantage and often even trounces Hillary.

If any Hillary supporters are actually trying to tout Florida as a "victory," then they really are grasping desperately. They're only going to hurt and humiliate their candidate even further by trying to make claims that are so transparently idiotic.

"And then they show Obama's tasteless, tactless, immature taunt of Florida."

Tasteless is going back on a pledge.

I never thought I'd see the day when Americans throw away other American's votes. I never thought we would resemble elections in Iraq more than American elections.

I never thought Americans would throw away entire states, regardless of if they have delegates or not. You should be ashamed of yourself, regardless of who you support. Americans matter, votes matter.

Hillary Clinton won, decisively, in Florida. She should be congratulated. Instead, all you people can do is call her pathetic because she doesn't get delegates. You should be ashamed.

You Hillbots are truly pathetic.

For Obama to cavalierly mock the voices of more than 2 million voters, almost 4 times the number who showed up in SC, runs counter to his unity theme. He has no problem dismissing and disenfranchising 2 million white, Hispanic and, yes, black voters for Hillary but if the same had been done in SC the cries of RACIST would have reverberated through the country.

What a crock.

And of course the media isn't covering Hillary's huge victory, except for Fox news and a few conscientious blogs like TPM.

Kudos to TPM for reporting on 2 million of our fellow citizens who would like a seat at the table, too.

I'm sure Barak knows that song, The Welcome Table or should we call it The Un-Welcome Table?

Mark, candidates were allowed to fund raise in Florida. That is all Hillary did.

However, Obama ran campaign advertising in Florida through a national package. They were told, in no uncertain terms, that they could not use campaign material in Florida through electronic means such as TV.

So yes, it is pretty disgusting when you break a pledge -- like Obama did.

As for the DNC, I don't care if they wanted to give the world. They are throwing away American votes. They should be absolutely ashamed.

Jackson won with 64%+ vote.

Let's call her ploy to change the agreed upon rules and count the Florida delegates exactly what it is:

Hillary Clinton's Florida "signing statement"!

What happened to wanting our candidate to fight for every vote? She's willing to fight, she's not giving up anything - isn't that what we want to see in the general election? I don't Florida should get to seat delegates, but their voices should be heard if the convention is deadlocked.

So, rg, would you like to go to Iran, where votes do not count depending on who you like? Apparently, you're already there.

It should be changed, not because Clinton won...but because it is the right thing to do. Who gives a crap about the DNC's timetable. It is the American right to vote and to select their representatives. Howard Dean has NO right to take that from Americans because he wants Iowa to be the first to vote.

You may want to take us to Iran, but I want to keep is in America. I want votes to count, regardless of winner.

to alwaystip's question-Im an iowan. I caucused for Dodd, incidentally. Hillary's decision to renig on her pledge isn't exactly shocking to me but I'd have expected better. I could see it coming with the way they treated the "win" in michigan however. one one hand, you have to take good press and results wherever you find them. otoh, celebrating an uncontested election seems cheap and tacky to me. whatver gets them through the day though, you've got to pin your hope to something. I guess.

Some thing to take note of: If the trend continues, with the Republicans having spent and campaigned heavily in Florida, and the Democrats not, the top two Democrats are getting about the same total of voter support as the top two Republicans. That bodes well for the Democrats in the General election.

Go Hillary or Obama.

At the same time Obama is putting out statements ridiculing Clinton, he is also quietly returning $70,000 more Rezko money. I'll bet he's glad Hillary is drawing some attention away from him this evening.

Two very opportunistic campaigns. Should be a roller-coaster week.

kjoe - did you read the previous posts? None of the democratic candidates campaigned in Florida. They got to fund raise, but that was all. Obama had one ad that ran on cable that was a mistake, but NONE of them campaigned there and they were all on the ballot. You can spin all you want, but this was a big win for Hillary.

That obama, he is a class act isn't he?

He was really classy playing the race card after the NH win. Even though this ltest glimpse in to just how classy obama is doesn’t quite top his claiming he won NV.

Just in, Obama's camp has now called the win as "hollow" and "meaningless". I guess the 300,000 or more people who voted for him are meaningless too because he doesn't get delegates.

I'm absolutely amazed that the DNC is allowing this, even more amazed that Americans are actually encouraging them to throw out a million votes.

Josh wrote on January 29, 2008 8:58 PM: Matthew, you're a joke.

Thanks, but I don't joke and am not a joke. My observations are valid and good for discussion. Regarding Obama's rudeness, feel free to explain how I'm wrong.

Jack, you idiot, Obama and Edwards DID NOT CAMPAIGN in Florida. I don't support Obama, but your moronic bleatings here show just how desperate you are-- the results are meaningless without an actual campaign in the state.

Bill Burton? I'm sure he's been dropped in the grease by now. Check on him tomorrow and see how he's doing after making fun of millions of Democratic voters. Immaturity is fast becoming a signature trait of the Obama campaign. Disrespect. Rudeness. Attitude. Watch what happens to him in Texas. Game. Set. Match.

"Anonymous", you should read again instead of being a failure. Everyone agrees that Obama used a campaign ad in Florida under the guise that he couldn't exclude them from a national ad.

Meanwhile, Clinton broke no agreement as she was allowed to fund raise, but she couldn't campaign or stump in person or through media.

Obama knew Florida was part of the package.

Bring back the delegates, and let all votes count. Screw the DNC and their meaningless need to have states be more special. I thought so then, I think so now.

Really the New Hampshire Union Leader???
Who endorsed McCain. So much for not using Republican talking points. Just because it's in a newspaper doesn't make it fact. If people are interested call the DNC and see if she violated the pledge, don't trust the trash. Don't forget Obama has been running tv ads saying it's just a national buy, but Hillary did her national buy excluding Florida, as promised. So get over it

Kjoe: You said there was no effort in Florida by Obama or Edwards. There was no official campaigning by Senator Clinton either.
To the losers tonight, I know you believe in fuzzy math, but here are the facts:Hillary 51%
Obama 31%
Edwards 15%
Now let me guess ... Who won?
Looks like Hillary to me.
Did the Obama supporters not see the returns. Maybe they flunked basic math.
I guess the rule is when Senator Clinton wins in a state representative of the entire country, it doen't count?

Dawn, you mean that just because Howard Dean decreed your state meaningless, you still get information? I thought you were completely cut off, according to the press that does all it can to keep the Obama storyline.

The voice of Florida has absolutely every level of meaning. You should have your delegates, you shouldn't be silenced. If Howard Dean continues to run the party like a frat house, your voice will be heard again when you vote for President. I have a feeling, though, that Scream Dean won't like the result of his iron fist.

I finally get it now.

The Hillbots are loving this, because this is how they expected it to be.

Oh, if only no one would campaign against her, she would win! Damn those mean other folks for having the audacity to stop the coronation!

There was no campaign in Florida. Hillary won a name recognition contest on the basis of having been first lady.

I know you wanted the whole campaign to be like that. But it isn't.

Learn to live with disappointment.

Josh, Floridians were not in a bubble just because Howard Dean sat on his throne and decreed that they don't count. They saw the same speeches, same debates, and had the same grassroots as every other candidate.

Stop downplaying the people of Florida because your candidate lost by a massive spread. They know who Obama is, just as much as they know who Clinton is.

The only disappointment here is people like you who want us to be more like Iran in our elections.

"Are these the same Obama "every vote should count" people who were just suffering a severe case of the vapors over the lawsuit in Nevada last week?"

Actually, Hillary is doing basically the same thing in FL as she was there. She agreed to the rules months before, and didnt say anything about them, didnt complain. Now, all of a sudden, when shes in trouble (Culinary Union endorsing Obama in NV, Obama getting boosts from SC and the Kennedys now), she acts like shes concerned. If she geniuenly cared about Florida's votes, she would have brought it up months ago. I don't think she cheated: technically she was fundraising, just like technically, Obama was running a national ad campaign on TV. It's just completely hollow and fake to act like she all of a sudden cares so much about the people of Florida's voice: she's only doing it because it will help her.

Also, no one should be blaming Obama or the DNC for this whole thing: it's all the Florida government's (or whoever decides when their primary is, not sure) decision. If they hadn't have moved up, their delagates would count, but they didn't, strictly against party rules. Has anyone brought up a valid arguement why this shouldn't have happened? If you break the rules, you should be penalized, otherwise, what would have been the point of those rules.

Obama and Edwards made their personal decisions to withdraw their names. They were not required to, as seen in Florida where both were still on the ballot.

It should not be held against Clinton that Obama and Edwards abandoned Michigan.

Also, Clinton was not the only Democrat on the ballot. Others were there, which further proves that it was not required to remove yourself.

Obama and Edwards made their choice, and should live with it. Clinton won the vote, regardless. She should be allowed to claim it as such and should be able to have the delegates -- this is America. We do not throw away votes because of a despot like Howard Dean wants specific states to be first in line.

Kudos for Clinton for a huge victory, one with symbolic not practical importance.

As for the Obama supporters who dismiss the victory as simply a function of "name recognition", I think they miss a very important point: in all elections, name recognition is a very important factor. In the fall, if she's the nominee, Clinton will be campaigning nationwide with a huge name recognition identified with the most positive Democratic brand in the last quarter century. Her opponent, a virtual unknown in 50 states prior to this past year, would be saddled with a name, well, only a mother could love, as he would surely admit. Hussein Obama is a tough name to sell to the low-information voters who will dominate in the fall, for the obvious reasons that have something to do with our enemies in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

So before dissing Clinton's victory on name recognition, consider that you are advocating a candidate who could sink the Democrats election chances for no better reason than a helluva lot of ignorant people will NEVER vote for a Hussein Obama. That's awful, tough, but true.

In order to withdraw their names from the Florida ballot, they would've had to submit a statement under oath that they were not running for President.

Those that voted did so under the impression that their vote would be used to select the democratic candidate, Josh. You're going to pretend they still have the same value after Howard Dean threw the delegates out, thus the expectation of their vote bring for the delegate?

Josh, Obama had the same grassroots. The same people organizing, just like Clinton. The only difference is that Obama had ads, Clinton did not. A state does not need stump speeches to make a decision.

They had the same exposure as many other states will get on Tuesday, so stop pretending that they didn't.

If people voted in Florida assuming their vote was going to be used to determine the Democratic nominee, they need to get out more.

It isn't going to be. It was in all the papers.

jabberwocky, doesn't matter. They made their choice, and live by it.

However, I'm done with this. Those of you that want to throw away people's votes, you should be ashamed of yourself. All votes should count, and they should count for their intent. The people of Florida have every right to choose their candidate, regardless of what Howard Dean wants.

Goodnight, and I hope YOUR vote counts too. Those of you who want to throw away Florida, I can only hope you experience the same thing one day. Have your votes, your voice, and your decision thrown away because of someone else's decision. Maybe then you will understand the power of a vote.

Cheering supporters? Check. Election returns on the projection screen? Check. Andrea Mitchell and Candy Crowley doing stand-ups? Check and check. In fact, the only piece missing from Sen. Hillary Clinton's Florida victory party here Tuesday night was a victory...
Wolf Blitzer was up on the big projection screen. Clinton banners ("Solutions for America") had all the camera angles covered. The orange stucco palace was filled with official Hillary Clinton posters and stickers, and people in "Team Hillary" T-shirts signed in elected officials and other supporters. Clinton aides worked the rows of reporters and the candidate entered to the strains of "9 to 5" and roars from the crowd.
"Florida," Rep. Debbie Wasserman-Schultz (D-Fla.) told the cheering crowd, "is going to delver a tremendous victory tonight for Senator Hillary Clinton."
Well, at least a tremendous victory party.

B>Much Ado About No Delegates
By Dana Milbank

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/29/AR2008012902998_pf.html

blackstar wrote on January 29, 2008 10:02 PM:

"the Clinton trolls in this thread are hilariously inane."

As opposed to the Obama trolls who are inanely hilarious?

And such insight they add, oh my!

Enjoy it while it lasts until next Wednesday.

Like Josh said, Hillary Supporters are loving Michigan and Florida because that is how the whole campaign was supposed to go: an inevitability campaign with no real competition, rolling to the coronation with unprecedented Democratic support. This surety of being unopposed for the Democratic nomination and the overwhelmingly presumed Democratic candidate in the general election is why she carefully crafted a conservative and hawkish Senate voting record. She has been looking past the primary for years and years.

Remember her response to Matt Lauer when he offered the what-if scenario that she might not win the Democratic primary?

But an odd thing happened on the way to the coronation: she picked up a primary opponent who is able - for whatever reasons, all debatable - to significantly draw supporters WHERE HE CAMPAIGNS compared to the opposite effect with Hillary: the more she campaigns, the more support she loses.

So let the Clinton folks enjoy this "victory", after all it is symbolic of the way her entire campaign was designed to work - and is so far failing stunningly at. As Barack continues to rise and Hillary continues to sink, the Clinton supporters will lash out with more and more anger, more and more charges of how unfair it all is.

And we can all sympathize with those feelings. I've supported candidates in the last three or four primaries that didn't work out to be "the one". It is frustrating, demoralizing, draining, infuriating. (I remember screaming at Kerry on my television "JUST SAY IT!!!!" as he rambled on interminably knowing we passed up on better speechifiers.)

Now consider that none of the folks I supported really ever had anything other than an outside shot. None were ever the presumptive nominee a year or more out with national poll leads the likes no one has ever seen.

If you were a Hillary supporter, wouldn't you be absolutely furious at the way this is playing out? Wouldn't you be beside yourself with the unfairness of it all?

As I write this, Hillary has made a media event about a state where she wants to change the rules in the middle of the campaign.

Is this woman a hypocrite or what? Is this any different than what is going on in the White House?

When Hillary thought she had the DNC in her back pocket, she agreed with this decission; however, now she wants to claim victory. If one looks at the count, she only carried those who voted early. Compared to those who recently decided, she, once more, got her clock cleaned.

Do we really need a dishonest power monger in White House? Haven't we lost enough jobs? Don't forget, it was Clinton who ushered in the "free trade" that sent manufacturing overseas and now we get lead in our children's toys. This is "caring" about our families? Please.

I just saw on MSNBC, they asked Hillary about Obamas people releasing a statement about how on the campaign trail in IA and NH she talked about how the FL and MI primaries "wouldn't count." She just starts laughing and says something like "Well, that's just a bunch of political jargon" and then goes on to talk about her policies and everything. It's something that there is NO WAY she can respond to it without dodging the question. I can't believe more people aren't seeing through this.

And also, I've been reading about how Obama won among people who voted today and recently, with Clinton winning azmong people who voted a month and longer ago. Anyone know how true this is, or if there are any numbers to back it up? If it is true, Im surprised its not being played up more.

while all you true blue partisan types are having your partisan wank-fest over the clinton/obama pseudo-contest, ironically, the real story in the florida election is the rank smell of decay surrounding the apparent adoption of the constitutional amendment regarding property tax assessments. the amendment has never enjoyed more than 40% support in all opinion polls prior to this contest, and yet, somehow it managed to pass with a healthy 60%+ majority (coincidentally, just enough to comfortably meet florida's new 60% requirement for amending its constitution).

this amendment is going to be awful for the state of florida if it passes muster with the courts. our tax base is shrinking more rapidly than the antarctic glaciers. by all accounts, with this new measure in effect, the state of florida might as well pack it in, call it a day and just dissolve all together.

florida's already seeing budget shortfalls in the hundreds of millions as it is, and it's only getting worse. with the collapse of the real estate market virtually certain to cause further steep declines in the state's tax base (we don't have an income tax, so property and sales tax are all there is to fund even essential services), all this means rate hikes and/or significant reductions in most of our public services and outright elimination of some services (library funding is reportedly already on the chopping block, the local police in our area are seeing a 68% budget cut, and our waste management fees just increased by about 29%, for starters).

so have fun, with your little victory parties. i'm going to be trying to figure out if there's any realistic way to get out from under my house and move to a state that will still have a public education system by the time my son's school-age.

As Digby notes, 1.8 million real people did cast these votes, whatever you think about them.

More people voted in Florida than all the other January contests put together, including Michigan.

What's not good for Obama is that the breakdown of demographics - blacks, non-black 30-59, non-black 18-29, non-black 60+ - are roughly consistent with South Carolina except he did worse with the non-black youth vote (campaigning would certainly help there of course - the youth vote requires heavy hand-holding/face time).

Hey, john mccutchen;

Nearly 900.000 Democratic American voters
disagreed with you today about whether it's Senator Clinton or your hollow rantings on here that are more ridiculous.

Have a Super Tuesday, won't you?

I can see Dana Millbank simply can't contain his Clinton hatred.

I'm so surprised to see that operating at the Wash Post of all places.

Little problem for little Dana and friends: voters aren't listening to you. They despise you as much as you despise the Clintons, judging from their eagerness to defy your clucking tongues.

It would seem pretty remarkable to me at this point if Clinton didn't win. The most important thing that Florida has established is that real live voters aren't impressed with the scorn of the media and pundits, they aren't impressed with all the old-time pols who line up behind Obama, and, most importantly, they aren't impressed with the media confection called Barack Obama.

It doesn't matter if not a single delegate gets awarded, or if the media makes a big deal about it, or anything else -- because it shows the sentiment of the people themselves, people who have been paying attention and chose to make the effort to vote despite being told they would be ignored -- and no spin can deny that.

If Hillary indeed wins, it's going to be hard to be Dana Millbank again -- which is probably a pretty miserable proposition to begin with. And I think that's going to apply as well to the WaPo as a whole, and the larger media. Once more they will have to face the basic impotence of their sneers, and they do so want people to pay attention to them.

rankly0 wrote on January 30, 2008 12:51 AM:

"The most important thing that Florida has established is that real live voters aren't impressed with the scorn of the media and pundits, they aren't impressed with all the old-time pols who line up behind Obama, and, most importantly, they aren't impressed with the media confection called Barack Obama."

Amen, brother/sister, you have called it! And after having read your words of wisdom, I can sleep tonight with a sense of inner peace knowing that we the people still count for something.

If any of you Hillbots are actual people and not just turfers, I'd suggest taking a look at the crosstabs from the exits.

HRC's numbers were not trending upward.

You Obama morons: It doesn't matter if the elections had delegates or not. Obama lost 50% to 30%. These are real peoples votes. It is these votes that count in the general election.

GET IT NUMBSKULLS YOU LOST, FL PEOPLE DON'T TRUST OBAMA!

But of course you are running on "Fairy Tell" platform!

Barack HOAX Obama

fl-ind and others -

You really don't need to call people morons etc. to make your point. Our biggest problems are with the people running the country these last 7 years, not the opponents in this campaign. And we may need to snuggle up with these people we don't quite agree with just to reach more important goals. Don't blow it.

Hey, Obama morons. Hillary did not campaign in FL at all. Obama actually broke rules and ran an ad. Also, no one "agreed" to discount the votes. They agreed to not campaign there. All were on the ballot. It was a level playing field. The DNC was wrong to punish FL for the vote of their republican legislature that tied their hands. I didn't whine when Obama won his mock victory in SC. But you guys have whined like the babies you are EVERY time the godboy loses. Grow the f**k up. The childishness of Obama's supporters says everything about the man. Not ready for primetime.

what made SC a mock campaign? because Hillary lost?
and somehow FL is a legit, fair playing field and votes should count?
your logic is backwards and thinking biased.

how can Hillary think it's fair to count MI votes when she was the only major candidate on the ballot? and after the fact.

also, Obama isn't mocking FL voters. it's the truth. it may not be fair. but FL voters knew full well going in to vote that their votes wouldn't count.

FL voters knew full well going in to vote that their votes wouldn't count.

Well they certainly knew that the powers-that-be in the Democratic establishment didn't want them to count.

But even though the establishment refused to listen to them, and wanted to act as if they simply didn't exist, they were so determined to make their voice heard that that they nonetheless went to the polls and voted for the candidate that they were obviously truly motivated to support.

And that candidate was Hillary Clinton.

I find it so interesting that people are so willing to dismiss the choice cast by more than 1 million Democrats as if the delegates are detached from the voters.

Whether this win converts to delegates, the fact is that more than 850,000 registered Democrats voted for Hillary Clinton. I believe that number is greater than the number of voters that voted/caucused in all IA, NH, MICH, NEV, and SC combined.

And while neither candidate came into Florida to campaign, Obama certainly was all over the news on the day before the primary with the Kennedy endorsement, which was covered extensively. Also, Obama campaign ads ran in FL for the week before the primary because he had bought time on national stations so his message got out there.