Bill Clinton
Monica Lewinsky
Hillary Clinton
George Bush

seriously, they need to put out to pasture.

None of them could possibly serve any purpose any
more in the White House.
They represent divisiveness and turmoil.

America needs to get on with it's life and forget about these people.

This attempt to change-the-rules-in-the-middle-of-the-game-stuff is bogus.

I know its probably a pipe dream, but you never know. The polls have been way, way off since one poll in iowa. Also, apparently the primary turnout is huge. Would it not be the funniest thing if the clintons lost florida and h. clinton flew down there to give a victory speech. I would be laughing my a** off.

This kind of shit violates the spirit, if not the letter, of their agreement. "She'll say or do anything to win an election..."

Are you kidding? The mere fact that Obama chose to run when he is so grossly underqualified has caused more divisiveness in the Democratic party than I have ever seen. The repugs must be having a field day watching this.

Camp Hillary is pushing the media to confer significance on the Florida results in the short term, probably to beat back the Obama-on-a-roll narrative.

Sure, that sounds right to my ear. When you are facing bad press-ink, you try to put out stories to gin up good press-ink. Only a fool would not. I guess we will see whether this narrative cuts any ice with voters, or whether the democratic side of the Florida race is so dwarfed by the republican side that her victory there fails to register in the minds of undecideds.

There's a full scale media gang up against the Clintons that spreads from the WaPo to MSNBC to CNN and happily joined in by Sargent, Kurtz and Ariana.

Proof: If Obama was leading in the polls in Florida it would be big news. How much phony news was made by these same sources that Clinton, with no opposition, didn't take a larger percentage of the vote in Michigan. If Obama was leading in FLorida all of you would be shouting from the rooftops the demise of Clinton.

This election cycle the media conventional wisdom isn't selling as well to the voters and after Super TUesday the media will again be shamed like after New Hampshire.

The more desperate she gets to not lose the more desperate her arguments have become. The clear, logical arguments for choosing her have been evaporating like the morning dew. Her mythological inevitability...gone. Her avowed passion to make the Nation better...just sloganeering. In the clear light of day, she now has to sweat and strain to formulate her rationale.

Greg:

Here's the question: Are you convinced that Florida matters? Did the Clintons' arguments ring true?

At the end of the day, this is a test of the media.

Anything to get elected, huh? What a desperate move.

This will matter, even if in some tangental way.

Also, the large states mail-in balloting (like in California) will matter as well.

Hence, my belief that HRC will ride to the nomination and victory. Of course, I don't want that to happen, and I am sure, at the very least, Obama will win in Minnesota, Colorado, Georgia, and Illinois.

HOWEVER, MSNBC reports that mail-in balloters care going for Hillary in about a 52-30 margin. That's bad news for Obama.

I like the subtle choice of Hillary photo on the homepage. Why doesn't TPM just endorse Obama and live up to the transparency ideal to which it holds everyone else accountable????

Those Clinton folk just have no shame whatsoever about being two-faced liars regarding the entir Florida/Michigan deal. The party cannot seat those delegates until the nomination is already decided. If they do, it would be an unconscionable act of favoritism.

I'm not voting for her but fair is fair, the poster above is right, if Obama were leading in Florida, these same people would be demanding they count.

Obama's statement in response should start out: "Based on the results of the 2000 election, Floridians care more than most people about playing by the rules."

She is making the choice clear: Power to the people OR Power to Hill-Bill. If she thought it would get her the nomination, she would put Cheney on her ticket as VP.

If Obama were winning in the Florida polls, I have little doubt that he would be doing the same thing. But, regardless, it is quite hypocritical to pledge not to campaign in Florida, and then still campaign for their votes by pandering to them from other states by saying she wants their delegates to count. It would not be fair if they were because nobody else has had the opportunity to campaign there. It's that simple.

JimS wrote on January 29, 2008 1:14 PM: There's a full scale media gang up against the Clintons that spreads from the WaPo to MSNBC to CNN and happily joined in by Sargent, Kurtz and Ariana.

Proof: If Obama was leading in the polls in Florida it would be big news. How much phony news was made by these same sources that Clinton, with no opposition, didn't take a larger percentage of the vote in Michigan. If Obama was leading in FLorida all of you would be shouting from the rooftops the demise of Clinton.

Christ. Here we go again. "Boo hoo hoo. Hillary's just a poor pitiful victim. None of the Clintons' problems are of their own making and they bear no responsibility for anything bad that's ever happened to them. Everyone hates us for no good reason at all. Its all just a big conspiracy. Boo hoo hoo."

Angry Vet,

Are mail-in votes' results released before the primary closes? That surprised me.

Michael A ....as dumb as the day is long.

Somebody else mentioned it, but I wonder how the iowa and new hampshire voters feel now. I bet if she said this before iowa, the clintons would be sitting on the french riviera right now crying in their champagne. Talk about a character issue. The clintons have no character or integrity. It's pretty despicable. I hope florida voters see the clintons garbage for what it is, garbage and vote accordingly.

Also, even if obama won florida by 20 points, he would never be doing this. It's called character and integrity, which he has and the clintons don't.

No one is making Hillary a victim. That's Obama's chosen function - supreme victim of mean Clintons. The GOP will eat him for lunch, just like they did Kerry 4 years ago. But go ahead and nominate a person who can't fight and will lay down when challenged.

Brett..... sorry but hillary has not campaign in florida, however obama has tv ad's running in the state...who is doing the campaigning? also if obama was up in the polls, he sure whould be running down to florida after the polls close to claim victory and he sure would be asking for the delegates to be seated. In fact if edwards was able to come in second place in florida, he would try to get the delegates seated.

I think its wrong not to seat the delegates from florida, because florida is part of the united states...what makes the other states more important? NOTHING.

This Florida maneuver is a window on the Clinton view of the world.

Make a pledge, then disavow it when it is politically expedient for you do do so. Feel free to call it hardball if you support Hillary, but the fact is that she made a promise and has gone back on that.

Hillary Clinton is the Roger Clemens/Marion Jones/Barry Bonds/Mark McGwire of politics.

Cheater. Liar.

"Proof: If Obama was leading in the polls in Florida it would be big news."

How can you possibly cite a hypothetical as proof???

I agree. Hillary can SUCK MY BALLS!

JimS...have you even watched CNN lately? I'll grant you that Chris Matthews seem to love Obama, but CNN can't run a story that doesn't have a Hillary bent. Your bitching about media support for Obama sounds ill-informed, particularly you decrying TPM for Obama bias.

Grow up. The adults in the room would appreciate it.

McQuaid’s Union Leader minces no words in slamming Clinton’s post-pledge campaigning efforts in Florida today:

COURTING VOTERS in Iowa and New Hampshire, last August Sen. Hillary Clinton signed a pledge not to “campaign or participate” in the Michigan or Florida Democratic primaries. She participated in both primaries and is campaigning in Florida. Which proves, again, that Hillary Clinton is a liar…

Clinton coldly and knowingly LIED to New Hampshire and Iowa. Her promise was not a vague statement. It was a signed pledge with a clear and unequivocal meaning…

New Hampshire voters, you were played for suckers.

A real question.

I've heard and read over and over again that "things will change" once we get into "closed primaries".

I sort of just took it on faith that these experts knew what they were talking about and that, yes indeed, "closed primaries" meant something VERY IMPORTANT.

However - I just heard my own state referred to as a "closed primary"... which from past experience, means that yes -- at my polling place, I must decide between choosing a 'Democratic' or 'Republican' ballot.

THAT'S a "closed primary"? I guess I had figured there were a bunch of states that forced you to show some sort of super-secret Democratic Party Official Member card...

Am I missing something? How exactly is this going to be the death of the indies and cross-over voters Obama has been pulling?

pkoso,
Did you watch CNN with the Obama SC win was announced. I thought Gloria Borger and King were both going to have orgasms as they stepped over each other to eviscerate CLinton. To Republicans like you, pretending your supporting Obama over Clinton, any coverage that doesn't actually call Hillary a liar and manipulative shrew is pro-Clinton. Grow up indeed, you wanker.

Yeah....probably from the Middle East.

you better brush up on the muslim smears, cause you're running out of options.

Tim: "They represent divisiveness and turmoil."

Obama has been the most divisive candidate in the current political cycle, going back to the time his wife insisted that we needed to elect him simply because we need a black family in the White House, which first injected race into this election.

Obama and his supporters followed that with tendentious and dishonest interpretations of Clinton's record, particularly on the war, name-calling, and a repetition of numerous GOP Clinton talking points, many ressurected from the 90s.

Clinton supporters and defenders will not soon forget that Obama and his supporters have used GOP Swiftboat-like tactics of personal destruction, particularly using the same GOP talking points on the Clintons that rank-and-file Democrats have long detested.

They also won't forget the Obama's campaign's mendacious claim that Clinton voted for the invasion of Iraq.

EVERYONE::::

what do you think the out come will be in florida tonight when it comes to votes::::

here is what i think:

Hillary: 62%
Obama: 32%
Edwards: 6%

This kind of shit violates the spirit, if not the letter, of their agreement. "She'll say or do anything to win an election..."

Gosh, as an Obama supporter I like the narrative which paints Clinton (not without reason) as a sort of Lady MacBeth of American politics. That said, I find it implausible when the above story is taken as evidence of the Lady-MacBeth meta-narrative. So she is trying to draw attention to a race she will likely win; how is this so egregious that it counts as "do anything to win"? Anybody would do the same thing in similar circumstances. That is what you do in early presidential contests - you draw attention to your victories and you downplay or explain-away your losses.

At this point I am simply hoping that the republican contest becomes so much the focus that her victory here is marginalized and Obama continues to dominate the news cycle. As you can see by looking at the Op-Eds in any major newspaper today, he is winning the perception war at the moment. It is only natural for Clinton to try to counter that, and I find it hard to believe that playing up Florida is really any worse than either of the other candidates would be doing if they were leading in FL instead of her.

"Camp Hillary is pushing the media to confer significance on the Florida results in the short term, probably to beat back the Obama-on-a-roll narrative."

It won't thought will it greg.

Seriously, complaining about the media coverage of your candidate is like complaining about the referees in a basketball game. It doesn't change the rules of the game, and doesn't help you win. In fact you just end up sounding like a whiny juvenile.

Of course she is going to fight for Florida to mean something. She has to right now - she needs to get the media back to a better story about her. I do hope the story is that the FL numbers are not what's expected and that Obama beats expectations. That will blunt the momentum she can get from this. And it's true - she needs him not to compete in order to do really well. Iowa and SC were large margins. NH and NV were small. But this is a tough week. If you are an Obama supporter - get out, volunteer, give money, e-mail Caroline Kennedy's editorial out to undecideds (that one worked for me) - think of every way you can help get out the vote for him next Tuesday!

If Obama was leading in the polls in Florida it would be big news.

Well, yeah. If Obama were leading in Florida it would be big news. As the old saying goes, "dog bites man" is not a headline, but "man bites dog" is. That the establishment front-runner is leading in a state where no campaiging occured is not really especially newsworthy. If, on the other hand, the insurgent were leading there without ever campaigning, that would be newsworthy. If that seems unfair, all I can say is that to be the frontrunner has both an up-side and a down-side. Speaking as a man backing Obama I would happily trade you the advantages of a friendly press for the nothing-but-name-recognition advantage which your candidate enjoys right now in polls across the country.

Michael A

If obama can win south carolina by 28 points why can't hillary win florida by 30 points

most polls have her winning between 10 to 35 points... look for a huge victory with a huge victory speech.

Hillary is going to kick so much butt in florida....that it will be own every news channel, website and newspaper...you shall see.

I don't know why all of the Obama supporters are so hateful toward Clinton. She and Bill had the most successful democratic presidency since FDR. It is sad how democrats are using such vile language and hate toward the Clintons. After Feb 5, things will be clearer. If you choose not to support the democratic candidate no matter who she is, then go for it. The democratic party will win, no matter who our nominee is.

i don't think it's fair to say hillary folks are more angry than obama folks or vice versa. we're all angry here. that's the result of the ultra-partisan warfare that was developed...IN THE 90s, but ON THE RIGHT.

most of us are going to support the nominee come november, holding noses or not.

as for MI and FL having their voices heard. (jesus that's stupid sounding.) we all recognize that the nominee is going to campaign the hell out of florida and michigan in the GE. that the DNC is trying to control their party apparatus should not be such a big deal.

...that the DNC is trying to control their party apparatus should not be such a big deal.

PARTICULARLY WHEN THE CANDIDATES ALL AGREED TO THE FRAMEWORK SO MANY MONTHS AGO.

Michael A.

lol.. for lunch i would like seafood:) in florida:)

Jake 08--sweet metaphor. Chicken s before they hatch. Did you think that up all on your lonesome?

You're on darrell. Seafood in florida sounds good.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/01/28/MNH1UL57Q.DTL

No one has seen or heard of this article, it seems, because it was buried in the mainstream press. Yet, this same question started Clinton on her downward spiral in Philadelphia.
Obama supporters/Hillary haters spew as much poison as the NeoCons who have been tearing this country apart since 911. This drivel posted here and across the Net is the exact opposite of what Obama talks about.

I hope that when Clinton is gone from this race and America's greatest villian is vanquished, then all of you haters including Rush, Anne, Hannity (you're all cut from the same cloth) can be raptured, for there will be no one left to fight. Obama's your messiah; pray he doesn't hold himself to the same pedestal you want to put him on.

For the record, I'm undecided. Obama or Hillary has not paid visit one to all us ignunt Louisianians still ravaged from the Bush years and Katrina. Then again, my vote doesn't seem to matter according to the cable news or reading these postings. It's already been decided for Obama and my voice is meaningless.

Real issues... can we talk about them for a while now? I don't really care what Bill or Ted say because it won't put food on my table.

I love watching the Hillary-Hater flip out. That's when you know Hillary has Hussein Rezko Obama on the run.

http://youdecide08.foxnews.com/files/2008/01/clintons_rezko.jpg

oops her not your

FL-Pres (D)
Jan 28 ARGClinton 57%, Obama 27%, Edwards 12%FL-Pres (D)
Jan 28 SurveyUSAClinton 52%, Obama 28%, Edwards 13%FL-Pres (D)
Jan 28 SurveyUSAClinton 49%, Obama 29%, Edwards 14% ...FL-Pres (D)
Jan 28 RasmussenClinton 47%, Obama 25%, Edwards 16%FL-Pres (D)
Jan 28 QuinnipiacClinton 50%, Obama 30%, Edwards 12%FL-Pres (D)
Jan 27 Str. Vision (R)Clinton 49%, Obama 36%, Edwards 11%FL-Pres (D)
Jan 27 ARGClinton 60%, Obama 27% ...FL-Pres (D)
Jan 27 RasmussenClinton 44%, Obama 25%, Edwards 19%FL-Pres (D)
Jan 25 ARGClinton 58%, Obama 20%, Edwards 15% ...FL-Pres (D)
Jan 25 SurveyUSAClinton 47%, Obama 30%, Edwards 12%

she going to kick butt tonight...can't want to see her victory speech.:)

green heron-Even Chris Mathews is predicting that Hillary will be the nominee. People who know, know. The media has been doing its absolute best to push Obama on us. I am a person who thinks for myself. I have read how he said he hit the wrong button 6 times in Illinois senate votes. Either he is an idiot or he is affraid to take tough stands on issues. He didn't show up to vote on the Kyle-Libbermann bill in the US senate, but he was quick to criticize Hillary for her vote. He is all talk. His buddy Rezko helped him buy a house that he could not afford and he lies on national television, saying he barely knew the guy and only did 5hrs work for him. He has a partnership lasting over 15yrs with Rezko. I am not taken by some prepared speech read off of a teleprompter. I watch the debates and notice how he can barely form a complete sentence to get his thoughts out. What people are seeing in him, I just don't. Hillary and Bill know how to get things done in Washington, becasuse they have done it before. No one can fault them on getting the economy back on track after Bush Sr. messed it up. Now they have to clean up after jr.

Hey Michael A,

What legislative acheivemenst did McGovern, Mondale, Dukakis, Gore, or Kerry pass as president?

It's Republican-lite to lose elections, because it ensures there's a Republican presidency.

What's wrong with bringing up the economy? He passed his budget without a single Republican vote and left office with 22 million jobs created and budget surplus. That's a hell of a social program.

Dan:

Obama's statement in response should start out: "Based on the results of the 2000 election, Floridians care more than most people about playing by the rules."

You do remember, don't you, that it was the Republicans whose mantra was to follow the rules, and it was Gore who said we should count every vote? Do you really think that Democrats in Florida would listen to those GOP talking points?

Hillary is the one making Al Gore's argument, and I think it will have a lot of resonance with the Florida voters.

trust me, this contest is going to mean something "Mark" because she is going to win by a huge margin... high turn out is going to lead bill richardson endorement and is going to increase her numbers in the polls.

she will be able to say hey look: I won, New Hamsphire, Michigan, Nevada and Florida were obama has only won Two States.

A brief history of recent Florida elections:

In 2004 John Kerry (a white male senator) lost Florida.

In 2000 Al Gore (a white male senator with a southern accent) lost Florida.

In 1992 Bill Clinton (a white male governor with a southern accent, good looks, a nice smile and a charming personal demenor) lost Florida.

One would have to go back to 1976 to find a race wherein a non-incumbant Democratic candidate won Florida. You will have to forgive me, therefore, if I persist in thinking it supremely implausible that either Clinton or Obama will win in Florida, delegates-seated or not. Evidently if you are the incumbant democratic president enjoying a very good economy, you can pull off a victory in Florida. Given that this is not the case with either Sen Clinton or Sen Obama, I am sticking to my positions above, charges of overwrought pessimism notwithstanding.

Jake08:

I have read how he said he hit the wrong button 6 times in Illinois senate votes. Either he is an idiot or he is affraid to take tough stands on issues.

green heron:

Obama was the the editor of the Harvard Law Review. If you call him an idiot, your opinion has no merit.

I guess he must be afraid to take tough stands on the issues, then.

Didn't Billary try to pull this lawyerly stuff in Nevada to distract when Obama got the backing of the culinary workers unions. Being that it's in Florida, and the not-so-distant history when Al Gore was ripped off in the same type of underhanded fashion, you'd think the Clintons would just get over it and accept defeat with good grace. It will be interesting to see how they deal with their ultimate loss when Obama gets the nomination. Can you say lawsuit?

http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Hillary's+word:+It's+worth+nothing&articleId=0853268a-d982-4190-81e8-740ae942f510

"It is bad enough that he skips important votes, but now we learn that he doesn't even know which button is yes and which is no."

..as opposed to a woman who voted to authorize on of the biggest clusterfucks in American History? Good luck with that rather frail argument.

I guess people are regretting NH ..... you jerk off....that was from the comment section......making it seem it was from the paper itself.

As stated above, that WOULD be big news. Hillary opened the race with a huge lead in FL, so it would be significant if Obama overtook her without campaigning there. Since he did not do so, it's hardly a fair test for Obama.

He HAS campaigned here, against the pledge. I saw his ads all weekend. Also, we in Florida have cable TV just like the rest of you all, so we are perfectly able to make up our minds wihtout ever seeing a candidate in person. Actually, based on the swoon that seems to occur when Obama enters a room, this might be a better test of the issues.

Mark-Edwards and many other senators voted for the Iraq war resolution. Obama was in Illinois writing letters to help get Rezko public funding or his eventual slums, 11 of which were in Obama's district. Obama was not a US senator at the time, although he has said that he is not sure how he would have voted had he been a senator. The senators had a responsibility that he did not have. I was against going into Iraq. Does that qualify me to be president?

Is Obama on the ballot in Florida? If so and he wins, would she change her tune? It was stupid to deny to Michigan and Florida delegates at the convention. It was also stupid for those states to move up their primaries. I don't think campaign season should start until like June or July.

"Obama was in Illinois writing letters to help get Rezko public funding or his eventual slums, 11 of which were in Obama's district."

Hillary supporters love throwing stones from their glass houses." SO YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT OBAMA'S PALS?" http://prorev.com/2008/01/so-you-want-to-talk-about-obamas-pals.html

That seems to be a losing tactic to me.

Long story short here is... It is not up to Clinton supporters or Obama supporters or Edwards supporters if the Florida and Michigan delegates will count. It was a decision made by the DNC.

Given the spate of Democratic capitulations, this should not be one of them. The DNC put their foot down on this after several attempts at resolution went unheeded by both states. That foot should stay down. The decision was made on principle... and should remain on principle...

But, just to add fuel to the fire... What was Wolfson's opinion on this when Hillary was leading by large margins everywhere...?

It will be interesting to see how (if at all) a Florida win changes the dynamic. It is difficult to know whether her Michigan win did anything for Sen Clinton, as she was already riding the wave of her NH upset. Now, however, in the wake of her unexpectedly large trouncing in SC, she needs to shift the momentum and it is an open question whether or not a win in Florida will do that. It might be an interesting enough twist in the horse-race coverage that the press will play it up, or it might be dwarfed by the comparitive significance of the Republican primary, such that no one has time to pay her victory any great attention. I suppose that we will see tomorrow morning.

DRinOH: "This kind of shit violates the spirit, if not the letter, of their agreement."

So did Obama's ad buy that covered part of Florida.

And then he lied about it.

Which violates the spirit of his campaign, as well as the spirit of their agreement.

Not to mention the agreement to tone down his race-baiting and his false accusations of racism which he also didn't abide by.

Thanks Debra for the info. I'm dying to find out what is going on on the ground in florida and can't get any info. Do you know of any sites with up to date florida info on turnout and what's going on? Thanks.

I'm still keeping my fingers crossed that she gets massive egg on her face tonight. It would be poetic justice.

Obama gave clinton a cold shoulder at the state of the union speech last night..... Shouldn't do things like that if you are wanting to become president....is he going to give other country's a cold shoulder too when they make him mad or he don't agree with something they say about it... that was wrong of him... its going to hurt him.

OUTRAGEOUS. NASTY. VILE. This is truly one of the most evil and underhanded dirty tricks I've ever seen. Billary must be "put out to pasture" as mentioned above... LET'S TURN THE PAGE ON THEM!!

Lots of us in Fla voted for Dennis (he withdrew but is on the ballot) just to protest the denial of delegates. (There was a sort of organized, publicized effort to do this, and other kinds of symbolic voting, like votes for Dodd because of his heroic lead on the FISA issue.) If you're going to seat Fla delegates now, you better hold a new primary first.

DC, I know you love spinning poll numbers when they look good for the clintons. However, you have to admit that the polls have been way, way, way off. How can you put any weight on polls after them being so wrong for every primary, other than that one iowa newspaper poll that predicted a huge turnout and a huge youth vote? SC was even way off on the magnitude of the victory. I'd rather trust a fortune teller.

Dear Dancing Bear,

Maybe you are starting Lent early and wish to suffer as attonement for your sins, or some such. If so, then attempting a conversation with TexModDem might indeed make sense. Otherwise, you would save yourself a lot of time if you just stepped away from the computer and beat your head against a brick wall instead of attempting to engage with him/her. By addressing a post to him/her you only give him/her the impetus to write another rude-but-insubstantial reply.

Clinton is leading in Florida by an average of about 19 points, so this 30 point thing may be way off.

Can we just agree that both sides are

http://thehill.com/campaign-2008/clinton-campaign-obama-is-violating-florida-ban-2008-01-21.html

breaking

http://thehill.com/campaign-2008/obama-camp-suggests-clinton-will-break-no-florida-pledge-2008-01-15.html

the ban?

This is truly one of the most evil and underhanded dirty tricks I've ever seen.

You evidently lead a very sheltered existence. This would not even make it into a top-20 list of political dirty tricks that I have seen (although I lived in MO under Sen Talent and the St Louis Post-Dispatch covers a lot of territory in IL, so I get to follow the saga of the Daley family). This is really a very small story. "Politician plays up victory" is just not the sort of thing that makes my blood boil, and I am fairly confident that I am not especially unusual in that respect.

"You have a limited period of time on one day to have your voices heard," Clinton, D-N.Y., said. "That is troubling to me. You know in a situation of a caucus, people who work during that time -- they're disenfranchised."

In Nevada, the Democratic Party tried to solve that problem by establishing caucus sites where many people work. It's been part of the Nevada State Democratic Party's delegate selection plan for awhile now. (A pdf version of the "Official Rules" can be located at the Nevada Democratic Party's caucus website. Check out "Appendix C: At-Large Precinct Caucus Rules and Procudures" on page 52.) My point is that this process has been known for awhile. It's not something that somebody just cooked up.

Oooh, but then Clinton did a 180 when Obama got the endorsement. Then she was all for "disenfranchisement".

So if Obama was polling high in FL. And started saying that their voices should be heard. Would clinton file a lawsuit that Obama "didn't follow the rules" of the DNC? She herself has no problem breaking them

"What will Obama say when a reporter asks him if Teddy Kennedy should have done jail time for leaving Mary Jo Kopecknie to die in his car under water?"

You know people are desperate when they start trashing Ted Kennedy. lol

I fear he may be just like Mr. Bush in that he's 'all hat and no cattle

I took a course from him in law school. "Con Law III" -- 14th Amendment, coveringte some of the knottiest, most contentious and intellectually challenging issues in constitutional law.

Had you been there with me, even for a single class, even for five minutes from a single class, you would eat these words in shame.

The man, whatever else you may say about him -- and I have a great deal to say about him, all of it complimnetary -- has a stunningly superior intellect and is all about substance. In a way his fluid gifts on the stump almost serve to mask this.

But I assure you, it is so.

Michael A(hole): "Texi, hillaryis44.org. They would love to play with you there."

I see no reason to go to a Clinton echo chamber just to escape an Obama echo chamber.

And I note that you are utterly unable to contradict anything I've posted.

That must be frustrating, which is why you want to silence me - I interfere with your echo chamber.

Greg: "That seems to be a losing tactic to me."

This type of tendentious argument is something I've heard continually from Bush supporters for the last 7 years when ever Bush malfeasance or ethics lapses hit the news - they immediately point to some minor or trumped up charges against Democrats then with false concern warn what a losing proposition fighting about corruption is going to be.

Seems to me that if you are an Obama supporter, you would welcome such losing tactics instead of playing the role of a "concern troll," because if they were really were losing tactics then it would ensure Obama's eventual crowning (although I realize that among the faithful, he's already been crowned the "Prince of All That Is Noble and Good.")

rg: "I don't feel so much that there is Hillary hatred as the dissapointment in not having an inspireational democratic nominee."

Problem is that Obama, like Bush, wants us to just trust that his inspirational abilities have substantive foundation.

We've just spent 7 years with an administration that consistently spouted inspirational messages as if the messages alone would generate positive results and insisted if we just believed hard enough we would win the war on terror, win the war in Iraq, grow the economny, etc, etc, etc.

We don't need another 8 years of politics as religion which insists that if we all sing Kumbayah long enough and loud enough peace and prosperity will reign.

For all of Kennedy's excellent attributes as an heroic figure and inspirational speaker, he was dismally inept at foreign polity and accomplished nothing significant with respect to domestic policy in his too short three year stint as president.

Maybe if given more time he would have come through, but that was exactly the argument from Bush in 2004 - I need more time for my ideas to become reality.

Sorry, but Obama has not proven in any way shape or form that he is more than an inspirational speaker, that he has the mettle and abilities to bring reality to his grandiose promises, despite having had 2 years in the Senate to show off those alleged abilities.

You can't ask people to trust you and make you president on the mere promise that you will do all the things you failed to do and exhibit all the skills you failed to exhibit during your time in Congress, while at the same time dismissing any notion that GOP control of Congress was an impediment to Democratic action and criticizing your fellow Senators for failing to do what you yourself failed to do.

"If the delegates don't count here then why should there vote count in the general election."

er....because there would be a campaign there. Anyone who thinks the votes from a state that all the candidates agreed would be uncontested should be counted the same as the ones that played by the rules and which were contested is a dope. These results are skewed in Hillary's favor because the track record shows the less people are exposed to the options, the more they prefer Hillary.

I think she's going to damage herself with this. I prefer it to Bill damaging her though.

Obama has been running tv ads in FL for weeks. His lying excuse doesn't hold water. Know why?
Because Edwards and HRC have managed ad buys in the same markets without running them in FL.
Is this like Obama being too dumb to know the yes from the no button? Over and Over again.
What is more Obama has an organization here which has been pushing the vote for months.
HRC has not made a public campaign appearance nor run ads in the state.
So who broke their promise?

If you don't think that Florida's delegation will be seated and counted for purposes of nomination at the convention then you need to get off the whacky weed.
What is more important everyone who does not have their head up their ass has known that and that Obama will agree to seat them at the convention.
When he does will his fans hurl their invective at him?
I don't think so.

For you fans willing to quote the Union Leader (!) to reinforce your insipid invective I say BRAVA!
Nothing quite like crawling into bed with the more extreme elements of the far right in America. Sure shows from whence you spring.
Rational readers however should be running for the exits.
Do you think that the right wing's embrace of Obama signifies anything more than their determination to derail HRC?
Will you so lovingly quote the Union Leader in its assured damnation of Obama if he gets the nomination?
I don't think so.

And lastly the STOFU. Once again we got a good look at the petty and churlish side of Obama. He was downright Cheneyesque in that moment. And it as revealing of his true self as was his appearance with and promotion of openly homophobic blacks in SC at his campaign events.

Interesting to see a campaign so consumed with hurling charges of racism at others openly flaunt Obama's gay baiting.

Interesting but not surprising.

To say that if Obama was ahead in Florida, then he'd be doing the same thing is disingenuous...

HRC waited until after SC was out of reach before she started with this strategy...There was not a peep out of her or WJC about Florida before it became obvious that SC was lost...

How tough is it for HRC supporters to remember back a week --- a week ago we heard none of this...Because she (and WJC) got their clocks cleaned in SC, we get this Florida "gambit"...

I'm a Hillary shill.

hey Darrell

how low does HRC & Co have to go to lose your support? be specific. what would be too low? don't deflect off to Obama. stay focused on Team Clinton. what would be too much for you, if not race-baiting, vote suppression, and slimy "non-campaigning"-campaigning in Florida?

do tell

Barbara: "Are the Clintons ruthless, phony and disgusting . . .?"

No.

But Obama is.

SarahBelle: "You can hardly deny that if the Clinton's aren't to blame for the initial race comments, they are sure the ones keeping it going."

Sure I can, because it's a fact that Obama has consistently raised race as an issue.

The "muslim smear" e-mails are the perfect example.

Prior to the Obama camp making them front page news through their ranting about e-mails the Clinton campaign didn't even create or authorize the e-mails had no wider distribution than the "Clinton (D-Punjab)" Obama smear, but the Clinton camp didn't make that smear front page news like the Obama campaign did with the e-mails, not to mention that the very same e-mails had been part of the public record for months after right wing sources widely distributed them.

So, the Obama campaign was responsible for making a big deal out of those e-mails, tying it to race, and insisting on making it an issue, even though they could have quietly complained to the Clinton campaign, put a halt to further distribution, and kept the issue out of the news.

They didn't want to because they wanted to make it an issue.

They have followed the same tactic with race, giving wildly tendentious interpreations of Clinton comments and attributing racial overtones far in excess of anything reasonably inferrable, just so they can falsely claim racism - that's race-baiting and that is something that the Obama campaign has pushed, not the Clintons.

We all know that if Obama were up in Florida, Hillary would be pushing for this just the same.

Pathetic.

lol..twirling fartknocker that's just the tip (so to speak) ...

The only president ever impeached on grounds of personal malfeasance
- Most number of convictions and guilty pleas by friends and associates*
- Most number of cabinet officials to come under criminal investigation
- Most number of witnesses to flee country or refuse to testify
- Most number of witnesses to die suddenly
- First president sued for sexual harassment.
- First president accused of rape.
- First first lady to come under criminal investigation
- Largest criminal plea agreement in an illegal campaign contribution case
- First president to establish a legal defense fund.
- First president to be held in contempt of court
- Greatest amount of illegal campaign contributions
- Greatest amount of illegal campaign contributions from abroad
- First president disbarred from the US Supreme Court and a state court

No Sarah Belle, I do not. Hell, I like Obama. And I'm not trashing Kennedy either. I consider ditto heads to be those that follow a candidate -in this case Obama - without a full inspection of his record. Regarding Kenedy, do you think that someone WON'T ask him about Chappaquiddick in the general election? Or that they won't see the irony in camapaigning for Lieberman? Or notice that he did not have the courage of his principle to even cast a vote on the Kyle-Leiberman Ammendment?
Ditto heads forgive their candidate's failings while demonizing their opponents.

Josh,!

Court action? Same as in Nevada?
Real,inspirational!

Hillary's judgement in this campaign is questionalbe, but not surprising. From the NV lawsuit, to Bill giving the concession speech in SC, to the FL grab. Why are you so surprised? Her judgement has not been exemplary. Especially in the worst political disaster of our lifetimes.

On Iraq
““In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001.
It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well affects American security.”
“So it is with conviction that I support this resolution as being in the best interests of our nation. A vote for it is not a vote to rush to war; it is a vote that puts awesome responsibility in the hands of our President..”
- Hillary Clinton 2002, floor speech right before the war authorization.

COMPARE THIS JUDGEMENT
"I also know that Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States, or to his neighbors, that the Iraqi economy is in shambles, that the Iraqi military a fraction of its former strength, and that in concert with the international community he can be contained until, in the way of all petty dictators, he falls away into the dustbin of history.
"I know that even a successful war against Iraq will require a U.S. occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences. I know that an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the Middle East, and encourage the worst, rather than best, impulses of the Arab world, and strengthen the recruitment arm of al-Qaeda.” – Obama 2002

Judgement? You decide.

Nick,
Honestly speaking. I haven't made up my mind yet who I'm going to vote for, but I can tell you I am for whoever is running against Hilary. Obama hasn't been heavily tested, who knows where he would stand. I do, however believe he is genuine. I believe he envokes spirit in people to promote a real change. I can also tell you I do not want 30 years of having either a Bush or a Clinton in the White House. I don't know about you, but I feel like I am the first generation of American's who haven't done as well as my parents. So while I can't be sure of what an Obama presidency would be, I can damn sure tell you what a Clinton Pres. would be.

Court action will get nowhere, just like nevada. Courts don't like getting into this partisan political bs and there is no case. It will just further taint the clintons legacy and damage the democratic party, which obviously the clintons don't care about. No character and no integrity equals no third term for the clintons. Let's turn the page.

I still can't wait for tonight and will be laughing my a** off if she loses.

This all sounds to me like a clear case of Clinton going back on her word, not keeping her end of the deal.

Why would anyone want a person like this to be their president?

I know from the HRC point of view it makes sense to try to reinstate Florida. But its a net loss for her. I look at her as dishonest, a cheater and a political whore. The same traits that makes me hate George Bush. Winning Florida might cost her the election.

This is some bull shit....

Outrageous.

This democratic nomination is going to disintegrate into a battle of the party to PREVENT the Clintons from stealing the nomination by stealing MI and FL.

Here's everything the Clintons have tried so far to win this thing:

*Voter intimidation/disenfranchisement in IA and NV (students, minorities)
*Swiftboating Obama in IA, NH, NV, and SC with LIES about his positions
*Suing a NV union that endorsed Obama to prevent him from voting
*Clinton supporters tossing Obama and Edwards supporters out of voting locations in NH and NV
*At the NV caucuses, Clinton supporters telling their voters to get there much earlier, then locking the doors on Obama and Edwards supporters to boost the vote for HRC
*Compressing the primary schedule to benefit HRC
*Convincing Obama and Edwards that the delegates from MI and FL would NOT be counted, then attempting to steal those delegates when her opponents didn’t campaign in those states
*Having the ex-POTUS (Bill) LIE about a democratic nominee’s positions to benefit his wife

This is not just going to be a brokered convention. It’s going to be all out war for the nomination.

The democrats might tear themselves apart this year and it’s all because of Bill and Hillary Clinton.

This is what you get for glossing over the misdeeds of these two sleazy, evil, crooks from AR.

Their administration was one of the most scandal-ridden in modern times – and we’re not just talking about hyper partisanship; I mean personal scandals. They dishonored the honorable institution of the POTUS, democrats forgave them, and now the crooks are back.

This is what you get. All they care about is their personal ambitions; nothing else. And they’re going to take the party down with them.

Anonymous wrote on January 29, 2008 3:49 PM:
The only reason Obama won south carolina was because of race

well, then what are you worrying about? obama is destined to get only 12-15% of the vote. like all those black folks in iowa! otherwise, hillary would have won it!

I'M NOT WORRIED ABOUT ANYTHING BECAUSE I KNOW HILLARY IS GOING TO WIN FLORIDA AND ALL OTHER 22 STATES AND I NEVER SAID HE WON IOWA BECAUSE OF RACE.... I WAS TALKING ABOUT SOUTH CAROLINA...RACE WAS THE REASON HE WON THAT STATE... HAD HILLARY BEEN A BLACK WOMAN SHE WOULD HAVE WON EASY.

Christ but would I love, LOVE to see Obama eek out a tiny victory in Florida, then watch Billary, wiggle and squirm and cheat their way out of winning their own lawsuit....

GCS: Good luck to Obama on eeking out that Florida victory. He only has to make up 30 points in one day according to most polls! Hillary did it in New Hampshire, you know--and that primary actually counted!

John Kerry doing the talking for Barack Obama... Now, I'm pretty sure I've seen everything.

Folks, if you want to debate the issues or the campaigns, the strategies, even how candidates are dealing with the various "identity politics" groups, fine.

But please enough of the ad hominem attacks, the completely racist, sexist, religiously intolerant/insulting and gratuitously personal attacks. Yes, we all know about Bill's impeachment, Monica, Whitewater, Obama's middle name, etc. We've heard all the Billary, Bubba, and worse nicknames (most of us survived the 90's for one). Try surprising us, write something new. We all know Obama did coke (it was in his book, you know, hardly subtle) and had some ties to Rezko, bought a strip of land, etc. If you have something more to say than "nanny nanny boo boo", please speak up, otherwise please consider dreaming up something intelligent to say or if idiotic, at least idiotic with a twist.

I am from Florida and I do not respect Hillary Clinton for what she is doing. She is just making things worse for Florida. I did not think that Florida should have tried to jump ahead the way they did. Florida should play by the rules.

You know annon at 414, you may have hit on something. I couldn't figure out why the clintons did what they did before the vote in florida. All polls showed a runaway by them, so why taint a runaway win. However, maybe the early voting and the clintons' internal polling were showing that the clintons might get smacked, so that's why they preempted the florida vote with their statements to get more supporters to the polls. Would that be a hoot if the clintons got beat? Too funny.

Thanks desider. The voice of reason.

hey t5890--Josh isn't as big an Obama shill as Kos is or Tim Grieve at Salon. Plus, I think he's kind of cute. He just needs to shave more often.

I won't go 25, but I'll bet you a lunch at 30. Over 30 I buy, under 30 you buy. Game on?

It's a deal, Michael! Though I suspect she'll probably win by 27 or so.

Hmmmm. Wonder how Obama and his supporters would be reacting if Obama led the polls in FL? Can any O supporter honestly answer that?

Michael A(hole): "I contradicted you repeatedly before and it was obviously a waste of time."

You believing you've contradicted something and actually having done so is like Bush believing he's found WMDs without actually having done so.

They are already talking on cnn about hillary and florida....

Look for that to be the talk of the night

go Hillary!!!

Hmmmm. Wonder how Obama and his supporters would be reacting if Obama led the polls in FL? Can any O supporter honestly answer that?

Obama was for seating the Florida delegates before he was against it. From a Tampa news outlet

Published: September 30, 2007 TAMPA - Barack Obama hinted during a Tampa fundraiser Sunday that if he's the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, he'll seat a Florida delegation at the party's national convention, despite national party sanctions prohibiting it.

[Snip]

According to Sanchez and Tom Scarritt, Obama was asked during the event about making sure Floridians have a role in the nomination, despite the DNC sanctions and the pledge. Scarritt said Obama responded that he'll "do what's right by Florida voters."

Everyone presumed the delegates would be seated until the race tightened and it became clear Hillary was going to wipe the floor with Obama. The idea that her calling for the delegates to count is some new ploy or unfair is ridiculous. Now, you might think progressive blogs would report on Obama's change of position, especially since it argues to discount democratic voters, but you'd be wrong. That might help Clinton and we can't have that.

Bosco, sorry, I thought the "frustrated" tag was off the table now. ;-)

My aunt in FL voted by mail for Richardson weeks ago. Does anyone know what happens if he gets enough of those early votes to capture a delegate? Does he still get to win delegates if he is out of the race by now?

GCS: Very open-minded and civil of you! But I'd expect no less from an Obamabot.

I can tell that there are a great number of Clinton haters commenting here but let me ask you a question. How can she lose by asking. If the answer eventually is yes she gains-if the answer is no nothing changes today's standing. Some of the comments on here about the Clinton campaign's thinking is ridiculous. Prior to SC, they were heavily criticized for "driving a wedge" thru the Dem Party and "racebaiting". I ask. What would they expect to gain by doing that? As much as you HRC Haters like to express,. They ain't that stupid.I would suggest that we don't fall for the Media BS. This thing is far from over.

fillphil

I pretty much agree with you,
but I would just have to say that Bill Clinton made a mistake in even cracking the door open as far as the "racebaiting"
charge, just a little too risky -
that is if he had really thought it through. Hard to beleive he didn't

he could have done better with honey.

But time will tell I guess.

Treating tonight's result as something to put in the 'win' column is cheap

So tonight's vote, which will be of as many - if not more - Democrats than have voted in all other primaries/caucuses combined, means nothing?

Even if they never seat the delegates, I don't believe that. And I don't for a minute believe Obama or any of his supporters would be arguing that if not for the fact he's likely to lose tonight.
This is no more about principle for Obama than it is for Clinton. This is politics. Obama doesn't want the delegates seated because most of them will be Clinton delegates. Clinton wants them seated for the same reason. The idea that Obama holds some sort of moral highground here is ridiculous.

And for the record, no candidate pledged not to seat or urge the seating of delegates. All they did was pledge not to campaign. And I think it's pretty clear that Howard Dean always intended to seat the delegates in the end, if you look back to last year, you'll see news reports where analysts (for example, Bill Schneider on CNN) predicted that the delegates would be seated in the end. It's only because it's a close race that this issue is being debated.

I'm a democrat. I support Clinton, but I care way more about the party than any individual candidate. If Obama wins only because Florida and Michigan aren't seated, it will rip the party to shreds. If there's an ugly convention fight over seating Florida and Michigan, whatever the outcome, it will damage the party and the nominee. There will be a fight, Michigan and Florida have already said they won't go down without one.

I want whoever the Democratic nominee is to have the support of democratic voters. That's critical whether it's Obama or Clinton. Refusing to seat to large, important GE states is not how we're going to get that.

I know Obama is Teh Awesome and can do no wrong and Hillary is Satan and everything, but it's ridiculous for the DNC to punish democratic voters for something the Florida legislature and/or Michigan democratic party leaders did. That's not how you win in November. And that's what I care about most.

Hillary said: Thank you for the vote of confidence. But she did kick some ass. GO HILLARY.
Josh and Blogopundits get a good old fashioned spanking. Kos, you next.