Rudy's Dissembling About Health Care Expands To Another Front: Breast Cancer
The other day, Rudy released a now-notorious ad claiming that the survival rate from prostate cancer is much higher in America than in Britain, showing what a failure socialized medicine has been. That claim was thoroughly debunked, however.
So will Rudy stop making the false claim? Far from it. Not only has he continued to mouth the same falsehood in the days after the claim was knocked down, but he's also expanded the dissembling about health care to another front: Breast cancer.
Check out this Rudy appearance on Fox News, which took place well after the initial claims had been widely proven false:
As you can see, Rudy repeated the same claims about prostate cancer, but he also added this:
"The same thing is true of women with breast cancer — the chance of surviving in the United States for a woman, much greater than in France, or in England or in Canada, or in Cuba where Michael Moore would like us all to go for health care."
The only problem with this is that it's outright false.
Looking at the relative survival rate — that is, the rate of people who survived five years after adjusting for people who died of causes other than the cancer — America's advantages over those countries prove to be very modest indeed, and can be attributed to a whole variety of factors.
According to the American Cancer Society, the five-year relative survival rate for breast cancer in America is 89%. That's an impressive figure, and one of the best in the world. But Rudy's claim that the likelihood of survival is "much greater" than in these other countries is just plain wrong on the facts.
In Britain, the five-year relative survival rate for breast cancer is 81% — only 8 percentage points lower than in America. Meanwhile, the relative survival rate in Canada stands at 86% — only 3 points lower than in America. We're looking for stats on France and will share them if and when we find them.
The relative survival rate is seen as a reliable measure by the American Cancer Society and others; Rudy didn't specify what method he was actually talking about. If the Rudy camp furnishes better statistics, we'll be glad to post them.
As for the notion that Rudy's breast cancer survival rates prove the failure of socialized medicine, it turns out that according to a report in April from Canada's very right-wing National Post, Canada's great statistics come from aggressive public campaigns to promote mammography and early screening.
Canada's campaign started in 1986, around the same time as breast-cancer awareness promotion kicked into gear in the United States — backing up the idea that survival rates turn on early diagnosis and having the economic means for treatment, via private or government-paid care, and not on whether the bill is being paid by a private or public entity.
At any rate, Rudy's response to getting caught in a falsehood was not to back off, but to broaden the pool of falsehoods.
Just what we need another liar in chief. The sad thing is that the MSM will keep repeating this falsehood, over, and over, and over again, just like they do with the king. Then people who aren't paying close attention, like the repuke base, will assume that this falsehood is true and will buy into the bs. It is really pathetic.
November 1, 2007 4:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
exactly. I just don't know what it will take to get the msm to wake up to what this guy's about
November 1, 2007 4:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
The original author, from which Rudy got his info, responded this morning in, where else, City Journal....
Same old hackery:
http://www.city-journal.org/html/eon2007-10-31dg.html
November 1, 2007 4:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Lies and the lying liars...
The MSM handled Bush 2000 just like they are now handling Rudy 2008.
November 1, 2007 4:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
You'd think that at very least the queen of colonoscopy, Katie Couric, would hop on this story (although she's probably too hurt by her treatment at the hands of South Park) now that breasts are involved. I would love to see what that great friend of America Tony Blair has to say about the uses to which the British National Health Service is being put. As with the prostate, early screening leads to better five year survival rates, but it is probable that the extra longevity results from the clock starting to run earlier than that the finishing date is pushed back.
November 1, 2007 4:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Do cancer survival rates have any real correlation to the means of healthcare funding? Wait time is a factor in both the NHS and privately insured healthcare here in the US. If there is a study that compares these two systems' wait times and the effects on outcome, I'd love to see it. Meanwhile, what does seem to be pretty clear is that not having health care is bad for your survival rate, period.
November 1, 2007 5:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Benito Giuliani is either completely delusional or he is a serial exaggerating liar.
November 1, 2007 5:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
According to the CIA Worldbook, the life expectancy for an American woman is 80.97 years, British 81.3, Canadian 83.86 years and French 84.0.
There are many factors. Rudy needs to get a few more facts.
November 1, 2007 5:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
"If the Rudy camp furnishes better statistics, we'll be glad to post them."
LOL, and I never say "LOL".
November 1, 2007 5:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
Most women I know (including myself) see misinformation as one of the biggest enemies to the proper diagnosis and treatment of breast cancer (or any cancer). US breast cancer survival rates are higher largely because preventative screening (mammograms) was systematically adopted earlier than most other countries. This still translates into better early diagnosis because we've had much longer to shake out the difficulties involved with breast cancer screening (making sure the mammogram is taken properly, making sure the mammogram is correctly read, using a different technique where a mammogram is not adequate). Early diagnosis is still the most important predictor for survival.
Our healthcare costs would be even lower if non-profit (public or private doesn't matter) clinics could make mammograms (or sonograms when necessary) easily available and affordable for those who don't have health insurance. A difference in treatment costs from several thousand dollars (for early diagnosis) to millions (as happened with my godmother, who got treated for breast cancer that spread to her lymph system, followed by bone cancer, liver cancer, and finally brain cancer) is the predictable result when basic preventative healthcare is not available. Ultimately, an attitude like Giuliani's will have the opposite effect than what he claims.
November 1, 2007 5:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
I just don't know what it will take to get the msm to wake up to what this guy's about
The traditional media aren't really concerned with policy - only sex, gossip, and personality.
But you already knew that.
November 1, 2007 5:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
At any rate, Rudy's response to getting caught in a falsehood was not to back off, but to broaden the pool of falsehoods.
Why would you stop using a tactic that appears to be working?
It's "conventional wisdom" among most Americans that we have absolutely the best of everything, so much so that it's almost impossible for a politician who wants to have a career to suggest, even in the slightest, otherwise.
November 1, 2007 5:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Someone should ask Rudy about the comparative rates of personal bankruptcy caused by catastrophic health costs (i.e., the percentage of those diagnosed with any of these forms of cancer who ended up in bankruptcy because of the bills that their insurance -- if any -- failed to cover). For Canada, Great Britain, France, and Cuba the percentage is likely ZERO. Maybe not so good for the U.S.
November 1, 2007 6:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Why can't the sensible response to this nonsense re: socialized medicine be something like this: We are the United States of America, fercrissake, how can you possibly doubt the Mighty US of A and our ability to build a National Healthcare system the surpasses anything that currently exists on the planet?
November 1, 2007 6:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Do the US survival statistics count people who don't receive treatment at all? Or people who show up at an emergency room when it's too late for treatment?
November 1, 2007 6:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
The bottom line is how many people in these other countries with so-called "socialized medicine" are clamoring for a change in their system?
The bottom line is that we spend more on health care and get less in return that the other industrialized nations.
I am sure Rudy and all the other candidates along with all the reporters who report on them have excellent health plans. However, I really don't think that this is justification for saying our health care is better for all or even most Americans.
November 1, 2007 7:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
A better test of who has better survival rates would be to compare those women in America without health care who get breast cancer to women without health care in the countries he mentioned, who get breast cancer.
Oh. Wait a minute. Nevermind.
November 1, 2007 7:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, the women her without insurance here may eventually get cared for, their first round.
In addition to having a 2% chance of surviving longer, they will most likely have sold their homes and become bankrupt. Forget about ever getting private insurance after they beat cancer, so when they do relapse they will have an even harder time trying to find ways to pay huge bills with bad credit.
November 1, 2007 7:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
"I just don't know what it will take to get the msm to wake up to what this guy's about." --Ferruge
The msm are fully awake,and they are about exactly what this guy is about-- sociopathic lunacy.
November 1, 2007 7:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
The 5-year relative survival rate for breast cancer in France is given as 86% by La Ligue contre le cancer here:
http://www.ligue-cancer.asso.fr/article.php3?id_article=6
November 1, 2007 8:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
When you dig into the stats, it really looks like we’re not just dying sooner than Europeans because we’re a nation of fatties who also shoot each other a lot. It’s ALSO because even when you can afford it, our healthcare system isn't any better than anyone else’s, in spite of costing about twice as much. Cherry picking some questionable stats isn't going to change that.
But Rudy's going a step further than cherry picking stats, he's just making stuff up. We’re the idiots who paid for high speed internet and got dial-up, and Guiliani is the company's tech guy telling us “no, no, it’s as fast as a computer could possibly be! England with their crappy dial-up takes 10 minutes to load a page—in America, we do it in twenty-nine seconds! It’s awesome! Oh, sorry, the network’s down again…Well, sure, it never goes down in Europe, but they have to wait 10 minutes to load a page. Do you want to wait 10 minutes when you finally get connected? Do you???”
I don't understand why anyone would think we want a system like Europe's. We're paying for a first-class ticket--pointing out that we're sitting back in coach with everyone else (and that some of us don't even have seats) doesn't mean that you LIKE coach and just want everyone to have a coach seat. It means you've noticed that you're getting ripped off!
November 1, 2007 8:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
The label "socialized medicine" is to incite fear of creeping socializm so the HMOs can continue to rake in more than 33% in "costs" and profit above the cost of care in Britain, Canada or France etc.
America already has "Socialized water supplies, sewage, fire departments, Police - all paid with "Government money" and all available to all.
The sad reality is the HMOs are motivated by profit and share price - so they are motivated to get high premiums from the healthy and figure out how to get the sick off their plans. Increase copays, increase premiums, deny benefits, claim "preexisting conditions" etc just get them off the plan !
Meanwhile, in Canada for example 100% coverage for any illness, at any time is $105 for a family of three. The family never pays a nickel, never loses their home and all their possessions to pay for healthcare.
100% healthcare coverage is a basic right for all in a civilized society. We Americans are just to sheepish to "make it so"
November 1, 2007 10:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's not "socialized medicine" it's government sponsored national health care insurance. When will Guiliani ever learn about government. The hospitals and care facilities aren't owned by the government. The nurses and Doctors do not work for the government. Guiliani needs to go back to college and learn what the rest of us know, that nationalized health care is not socialized medicine. Rudy looks so stupid when he tries to smear the democratic candidates. He really is just an ego maniac dumb shit who doesn't know what he's talking about. The pundits who smile and just let him go on are even dumber. The only important issue with these guys is if it smears democrats...it's all they strive for.
November 2, 2007 1:15 AM | Reply | Permalink
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November 2, 2007 2:01 AM | Reply | Permalink
If these jokers -- Bush, Cheney, Rudy, the corporate media that serves as their reporters and propaganda arm -- were forced to spend 1/3 or 1/2 of their income on health insurance and related costs like prescription and office and hospital visit co-pays and still be required to fight with the insurance companies for every dime of care and coverage, maybe they'd change their tune. I read the other day that members of Congress are paying about $200/month for far superior health insurance and care, for which I'm paying closer to a $1000/month with a substantially smaller income. Compassionate conservatism indeed!
November 2, 2007 8:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
You know, I think we are going to have to start to desensitize the American people to the use of the words 'Socialized Medicine' Like they do in sex education classes when they keep saying the correct names of the male and female anatomical parts until they become comfortible for people to say (vagina anyone?) So maybe we should say Socialized Medicare because thats basically what we have and most people who have it are OK with it IF they can find a MD who will actually accept it. Of course if every body had Socialized Medicare, it would be easy to find an MD who would accept it.
November 2, 2007 5:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Countries that screen aggressively and catch cancer early may have impressive 5 year survival rates NOT because they are better at treating cancer but because 5 years from an early diagnosis there is likely to be less mortality than 5 years from a later diagnosis. That does NOT mean that the overall mortality from the cancer is better in that country. And that is the metric that counts.
November 2, 2007 5:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Does Rudy know or heard of a country called Sweden*? If not, then I reccommend he brush up his internation general knowledge
For from what I've heard, seen and read, Rudy is just as ignorant, unintelligen liar and a rabid hater of facts and intellectual-level discussion of ANYTHING, except repeating the same braidead talking points as his school/college mouthpiece, the patently dishonorable talking points parrot, college drop-out Sean Hannity!
*Survival rate in Sweden and the other Scandinavian countries - Finland, Norway and Denmark, is probably in the extreme north of 90%! And that's fact, compared to Rudy's outta his wrinkle b*** lies wrapped as facts!
Does this arrogant liar have any dot of shame in body!!
November 2, 2007 8:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Another annoying aspect to this is the media's response. Instead of saying "Mr. Giuliani was wrong about..." or "Mr. Giuliani misled the public about..." it is always something like "Democrats dispute Giuliani's cancer stats". Like it's just a difference of political opinion instead of an outright lie. Sometimes "fair and balanced" isn't.
November 2, 2007 8:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
The difference in breast cancer survival in the US vs UK can be due to a great many factors other than the quality of medical care.
There are genetic differences between the populations, nutritional differences, lifestyle differences.
One big difference that could possibly explain the difference is vitamin D status. Vitamin D prevents breast cancer and other forms of cancer. The US in aggregate has a much sunnier climate than the UK, and therefore people in the US have better vitamin D levels. People in the sun belt states have less breast cancer than people in northern states.
Giulianis statement is totally unscientific and merely his unsubstantiated opinion. Giuliani is an asshole and a fool.
November 2, 2007 9:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
If Giuliani was intellectually honest, he would be talking about the BIGGEST risk factor for cancer death: the lack of health coverage. A person without health coverage who gets cancer is much more likely to die because of lack of routine screenings, delay in seeking treatment, and inferior treatment once diagnosed.
If he really cared about cancer survival stats, those are the ones he would be talking about. But since politics trumps everything in Repub-world, he will insist just the opposite.
November 3, 2007 12:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
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