No effing kidding.

The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy's taken a left turn

Girlfriend's having bad month
Whine on

Alright, keep up the whining. I see those poll numbers sinking already. What a bunch of babies. First it was the "attack" was sexist, now it's swiftboating. I would hate to see what happens if she gets the nomination and actually has to deal with attacks or she wins and has a crisis that she has to deal with. You can't question how wonderful she is, just vote for her, bow to her majesty and trust her. How pathetic.

Anybody but clinton II in O8.

This is kind of tangentially involved with this lead since its discussing obama's response to clinton I's claim of "swiftboating."

I'm going to take over for keith on this one, since he's pissed at me concerning some of my obama observations. Anybody see the ap article where obama is drawing a ton of repuke support. He is coming in third among repuke voters in Iowa. Also, a nationwide gallup poll (not a clinton II paid for survey usa poll) states 78% of repukes say they wouldn't vote for clinton II and obama splits repukes with 39% in favor and 43% against. Now that's a freaking headline!!!!! Talk about someone who could unite the country and win a landslide.

Why isn't this on election central as opposed to these continual bs national polls showing clinton II ahead by double digits?

At the same time, it is Edwards and Obama that are being criticized for double-talk yesterday, as a new CNN report implies that Obama had been told in advance of the Iran vote, and as Edwards draws fire for his own answer to the illegal immigration and driver licenses question yesterday on ABC.

Why on earth is anyone in the Clinton camp still talking about the debate?

Bill's right in that the swift-boating of Kerry was a bunch of lies. Obama and Edwards attacking Hillary for wanting to go to war with Iran and double-talking everything, while talking out of both sides of their own mouths is not that much different. Just a different pack of lies from a different pack of liars.

Gee Daniel, no link to your own website pitched as a tip from some disintersted third party today? What, are we running short of Glorious New Polling Numbers proving the inexorability of Big Sister's Glorious March to Ultimate Victory this week?

Interesting that the portion of the article about Dodd was left out. Here it is:

"Sen. Chris Dodd, another candidate for the Democratic presidential nomination, called the Clintons' response to the debate "outrageous."

"To have the former president come out and suggest this is a form of swiftboating ... is way over the top in my view," Dodd said in a telephone interview.

"If elected to the presidency, there will be a lot of tough questions and if you can't handle it in a debate without accusing everybody who has an issue with you of piling on or a sexist attack, somehow, first of all that's unwise and, secondly, it's false," Dodd said."

Was Edwards interviewed about Bill's comments?

Russert set up the question by saying that Clinton had "banned" the release of the records, which is false. If he doesn't think she is being swiftboated, he should listen to the nightly smear campaign against Hillary coming from Tucker Carlson and Chris Matthews.

In poker there is this thing called 'tells' and Bill Clinton has one whenever he is lieing he points his finger.

The picture they have up on the CNN ticker is of him pointing his finger when he is asserting that his dearly beloved wife is being swiftboated...what a crock.

Images are powerful and what comes to mind when you see Bill pointing his finger is:

I DID NOT HAVE SEXUAL RELATIONS WITH THAT WOMAN.

OMG, is this ever going to be the undoing of both of the Clintons.

Go home Bill. America does not need the Clintons. Go home please. It is time for you and Hill to get off stage, you both have overstayed your welcome. It is time for a change of guard we do not need more of Slick Willy and Hilly.

Bill having to come out to defend Hill, just reminds all of us what it will be like with Hillary in the WH and all the baggage that comes with it.

Please let's not relive the nineties.

Check out the picture at CNN of WJClinton pointing that finger and defending his wife:
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2007/11/06/bill-clinton-defends-wife-on-licenses/

anonymous, i read digby every day and she hasn't claimed that hillary's been swiftboated, AFAIK. it's not hillary's position on spitzer's plan that has tripped her up (obama is in favor, dodd opposed), but her perceived waffling on whether she supports the plan (current answer: yes, IIRC)

I just want to know what internal polls are making the Clintons respond so desperately to her poor debate performance. I really don't get how they can think this is a good strategy.

Jeremy,

The internal polls are that Hillary DOUBLETALKS.

Just look at the way Dodd responded to her...he really pounced on her in a manner which you could tell was something he had previously experienced with her being duplicious. This is a character trait Hillary has. Dodd was livid...he was vehement .."NO, you SAID he says"...it was clear to most people watching the debate that he was right.

Dodd said she was unelectable and then he called her out when she tried to restate her position after misleading folks with that 'the plan makes sense'

Edwards said she was dishonest, asked HRClinton to get in the 'tell the truth mode' not the general election mode.

Obama said he could not tell if she was for it or against it.

You have 3 people in less than 3 minutes ALL saying they do not know what her stance is. That is no different than what folks are experiencing on the campaign trail when Hillary is asked questions.

Hillary has a problem taking a stance, she is indecisive. Let's not forget that in the last debate she could not even decide which team she would root for if the Red Sox were winning, she claimed she would root for one team in the first half and another in the second.
Now most folks who do not understand all the minutiae and nuance of foreign policy and immigration policy DO GET when a person is a INSINCERE sports fan. They GET that!!

Hillary could not even DECIDE who to root for...this was precisely what she did on the immigrtion license issue.

So folks are seeing with their own eyes that she is a waffler, and can't take a stance.

Sports fan all over America were stunned when she couldn't pick the Red Sox or the Mets....puhleeeze this women says whatever is right in the moment.

People everywhere get that...she lacks backbone...she is a wuss or worse a FAIR weather fan.

Here is slick Willy on video defending Hilly again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=floXDF09BlA

That's his story ...here are the facts

The Presidential Records Act allows a president, while still in office, to bar disclosure of six categories of documents for 12 years following the end of his or her tenure. One of those categories is “confidential communications requesting or submitting advice, between the President and his advisers.” Communications between a president and his wife are considered to fall in that category. He claimed the exemptions broadly (without mentioning Hillary) in 1994. In 2002, he amended his claims to loosen the restrictions – but specifically identified communications between himself and the First Lady (among others) as items that should remain sealed until 2012.

Secondly, while Hillary is correct in a legal sense when she says it is "not my decision to make," we have little doubt that her husband would do as she asked should she want the documents made public.
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/hillarys_high-stepping.html

Sorry Orwelly
Folks may point their fingers for emphasis.

However, the majority of America remembers Bill Clinton looked into the camera and pointed his finger with emphasis to LIE and said:

I DID NOT HAVE SEXUAL RELATIONS WITH THAT WOMAN.

That is an enduring image for many Americans.

Whether Bill points his finger for emphasis or not...he also points it when he is LIEING!

In poker that is a 'tell'...a behavioral habit that folks unconscious do that tips your hand as to what their thinking is.

In Bill's case he is lieing and he KNEW it!

No doubt Hillary knew it too!

Instead, she went on TV and accused the GOP of a 'vastrightwing' conspiracy.

That was the first time she used the phrase, in defense of the rumors about Bill and Monica.

Bill and Hill need to go home.

We have seen this act before...only this time he is defending her, instead of her defending him.

In the statement in question Bill was talking about Republican attacks on Democratic candidates over this issue, and that it was too complicated for 30-second soundbites.

I don't know why Obama takes it personally, the comments weren't aimed at him whatsoever.

d g:

He's not taking them personally, he was asked about them.

This was actually a pretty subtle attempt to shift the narrative away from the debate itself (which clearly was not the win Mark Penn has attempted to spin it as) and back to HRC versus Republicans. It's aimed not at the small minority of voters who watched the debate and followed the subsequent stories (spin), but for those barely paying attention. They hear that Republicans are trying to "swiftboat" HRC and that, in some ways, increases her stature in their eyes (2004 wasn't that long ago). Actually kind of brilliant.

I think Bill Clinton was talking about the democrats, and his statement was shameless. Why doesn't the Clintons just admit Hillary lost the debate already.

fgfgr

I love Bill and all, but this is just bullshit. How weak of them! What is going on with the Clintons? I say that as someone who doesn't really care if Hillary makes minor contradictory statements here and there, I thought her answer on the Spitzer question was funny but not egregious. However, comparing her getting a ribbing over it to what was done to John Kerry is just plain irresponsible and lazy.

Wow, stretched the head clean off the neck of that turkey, and well before Thanksgiving. Bill is normally so deft, who talked him into that? Someone will be 'swiftboated', it will be a Democrat, and the Republican will be Giuliani.

Whenever the entire field is attacking the apparent leader, it's a victory. Hillary won. The others are still qualifying. She should already be out campaigning. Maybe Bill is trying to get the term into more common usage? Take the medicine taste out? Make it more 'our word'?

I think it is very irresponsible to use the term up so early, but it could put that verb deeper into the vernacular and make the public more sensitive to attempts at 'swiftboating' our candidates. That is, the American kind. All Americans have to be wary of misinformation.

Jeremy wrote on November 6, 2007 5:09 PM:
I just want to know what internal polls are making the Clintons respond so desperately to her poor debate performance. I really don't get how they can think this is a good strategy.

Here's an answer from Ezra Klein:

being pretty concerned about the role immigration will play in the coming election. Not only is it an increasingly acute -- and motivating -- concern for voters, but it's quite literally the last issue area in which polls show Republicans with the lead. They've lost it on terrorism, taxes, Iraq...but they've got it on immigration.

That's why the hubbub over Hillary Clinton's driver's license" answer worried me. The sentence summary that came out of that debate -- "Hillary Clinton was evasive and muddled while trying to obscure her support for granting driver's licenses to illegal immigrants" -- had two parts. Hillary's competitors were trying to say "Hillary Clinton was evasive and muddled while trying to obscure her support for granting driver's licenses to illegal immigrants." What I think people heard was, "Hillary Clinton was evasive and muddled while trying to obscure her support for granting driver's licenses to illegal immigrants." And that's a line that will nail any of the Democrats.

Bill Clinton is a pussy. This isn't Swiftboating (which was putting forth a load of lies about John Kerry). This is just telling the truth about Bill's careerist, dishonest wife, who is not qualified to be president.

The Clintons make me sick.

Obama or Edwards or Gore or Mike Gravel or anyone but Hillary for President.

My apologies for the double post. This message board has become as slow and lame as TPM itself has become since Josh turned things over to a bunch of clueless interns.

My apologies for the double post. This message board has become as slow and lame as TPM itself has become since Josh turned things over to a bunch of clueless interns.

Swift Boating is way too strong a term for this. Too bad Bill stepped badly into this.

That said, the pack seems to be wanting to join the "duplicitous Hillary" choir. This is more the "Al doesn't know who he is", "Kerry speaks French" kind of thing.

And yes, Kerry deserved it with his stupid "I was against it before I was for it" utterance. Which should give everyone a clue - real candidates are running on 2 years of sound bites. One screw up can still be biting you badly 16 months later. But everyone thinks it's oh so natural for Hillary to want to open another vault of quotes for Republicans to rummage through, to state positions on complicated issues in easily distorted sound bites.

Hillary's "Great Right Wing Conspiracy" was entirely accurate. And 10 years later she's still getting slammed for it. Grow a clue folks, speaking the truth clearly doesn't matter nearly as much as you think it does. How's that Democratic Majority Congress going, by the way? Feel the power.

There is ample evidence available that Obama's race is no barrier to an overwhelming number of people supporting him. In fact, in Illinois he has higher approval ratings than Dick Durbin (Irish-American, if you didn't know) in every cross-section, including among white, Republican, conservative, and downstate (largely rural) voters. See here:

http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReport.aspx?g=9acde2f2-da64-4175-bb54-121eaf30bb18

And if you know anything about Illinois outside of Chicago (think Indiana or Kentucky), it should be clear there is no inherent barrier to Obama translating this appeal nationwide.

So, it is simply false that Obama could not win the Presidency because of his race. And this is a fact we should be celebrating, not denying.

wot, I agree. Especially since he had time to think this over.

DTM, most of Illinois' votes come from Chicago's suburbs - see
http://www.lib.niu.edu/ipo/1993/ii930225.html
not downstate. While it may be America as a whole is ready for a black President, Obama will be hit with "Hi Harald, just call me" type ads, as well as conservative "Red State" rejection. "No inherent barrier"? There are lots of barriers. Hope he's not so naive as to think it's a level playing field.

If you read Mr. Clinton's actual comments he never said that Hillary was being swiftboated by any of the Democratic candidates. He warned against Republican smears. He also specifically said that immigration is a subject that should be discussed. I'm a little worried that TPM is helping to spread Media/GOP crap that Bill Clinton accused Obama of swiftboating Hillary.

So it turns out that Bill Clinton didn't say the Dems swift boated Hillary - he was worried that they'd slide into the Republican honey trap, where "I back Spitzer" = "soft on terror".

I've been saying something similar on the desire to get Hillary to say something concrete on waterboarding. You know next year she'll be facing Tim Russert, and he'll pull out, "Sen. Clinton, you've said you're against waterboarding, but if a terrorist attack against an orphanage in New York were to take place in 5 minutes and you could stop it, would you change your mind?"

This campaign is not taking place in a vacuum. The Republicans are watching, waiting and planning. As Ari Fleischer says, "Everyone needs to watch what they say."