Personally, I prefer a candidate that is pro-active vs. reactive.

It's easy to cast your vote, then read the tea leaves, then correct your vote.

It's a sign of leadership to vote correctly the first time.

Correction:

This a real resolution that has a chance to hold Bush's feet to the fire if he dares to attack Iran, as opposed to last week's ceremonial, non-binding, and "saber-rattling" measure that the netroots went wild over and that TPM spent a lot of time denouncing as Authorization to Attack Iran. Bush could have attacked Iran regardless of that ceremonial resolution. Most Dems, including Levin and Durbin, had voted for that resolution mainly for its "scare-crow" value. This Webb/Clinton resolution, on the other hand, would be an impeachable offense if Bush breaks it. Would the Repub Senators go along? I doubt it but the Dems have to push for it. A new WaPo/ABC poll shows that the public is with them on Iraq (including cutting funding), so what they need to do is to keep pushing such legislations again and again, and force the Repubs to filibuster or push Bush to use his veto power. Shelving resolutions for fear of veto or filibuster is not why the people had voted for the change in Congress!!

dan wrote on October 1, 2007 5:39 PM: my liberal doubt might be more assuaged if she hadn't simply laughed off mike gravel's legitimate rebuke of her yes vote on kyl-lieberman. even if gravel has his quirks, if hillary actually has a forceful defense of her position on kyl-lieberman she should have explained it to the voters on tv instead of issuing a paltry statement to the press

Agreed. Her vote on Kyl Lieberman was inexcusable, and for her to laugh in the face of voters when faced with the question was nauseating. I hope this measure passes, but it does nothing to change how I feel about HRC.

dcshungu & colonpowwow & assorted hillaristas--

Save your hillary-worship for when this thing actually passes! Until then, voting for an opposition resolution that seems highly unlikely to pass just doesn't ameliorate the bad odor caused by voting for a bad resolution that DID pass.

Barndoors and horses and all that.

I will change my mind about Hillary being a neocon fox in hen's clothing if she really works hard to get this bill passed. It is important to attack this flank to prevent an even more insane widening of the war(s) in process. The other flank is impeaching Cheney. I'll know Dems are serious about defending the constitution and the General Welfare when I see them taking on, as a party, Cheney - the axis of evil in this administration.

Hillary votes to close the barn door!

YEEAAHHHH!!!!!

Sure it's a vote she knows will never amount to anything, but hey, it's enough for enough of 'em....

Look, I have some more shiny beads right over here........

reason 59736 why I will NEVER vote for Hillary Clinton

Even though I think this move is cya, I applaud Hillary's action to co-sponsor this binding legislation of Webb's, and I expect her to expend some of her political capital to get it past committee and up for a vote, asap to head the neocons off at the pass. By the way, the bill is S759, which Webb introduced back in May.

The deauthorization of the 2002 AUMF is a different bill that involves Byrd of WV.

dcshungu:
"This a real resolution that has a chance to hold Bush's feet to the fire if he dares to attack Iran..."

If this resolution passes, and Bush attacks Iran anyway, what consequences do you imagine Bush would have to face?

I say 'nada'.

Not only that, the Dems would vote to condemn anyone who disagrees with any of his war-mongering sycophants.

I wish I was exaggerating.

If this resolution passes, and Bush attacks Iran anyway, what consequences do you imagine Bush would have to face?

He broke the law and would be impeached since the conditions would be just right:
(1) He got us into a war of choice in Iraq and has no clue on how to get us out of it, (2)including our just commitment in Afghanistan, the military has been stretched to the braking point, (3)our allies won't support this invasion, (4) the people won't support this invasion, (4) heck, the military won't condone this invasion, (5) he is a lame-duck POTUS with an approval rating approaching Nixonian levels... And what does he do: He launches a war of choice against a country the size of Iran! Even members of his own party (unless they wish to be extinct as party) would vote "yea" on the articles of impeachment. It would simply outrageous for Bush to launch an attack while we are still mired in Iraq!

I do not think that Bush would dare to attack anyone any time soon. He has emasculated himself along with the US military. He is done and will fade into oblivion in 16 months, and go to where mediocre presidents go when they leave the country in a mess...It is called Crawford, TX.

All the faltering, paltering and useless procrastinating by Hillary and her ilk have worked to delay any effective Democratic-backed change in the Iraq War, and, by extension, the reining-in of Cheney plans against Iran.

With today's reported declines in U.S. troop fatalities and some diminution in the Iraq sectarian killings, the GOP (from the White House to the most crimson little redneck county in the U.S.) will begin to gleefully shout, "See there, we told you so."

Everyone is, of course, gratified that deaths in Iraq, especially our own troops, may be on a downward trend...but, we can expect the neocons and their MSM spokespersons to blare this bit of 'questionable' news 24-7 at full volume.

Certainly, regardless of casualty 'figures' there is no indication that a 'solution' to our (and the hapless Iraqi factions') problems is near.

Had our Democrats (including, especially, Hillary) worked with and forced Reid to pass a 'no-funding without withdrawal scheduling' back in early summer, we might see a different, and better, scene in the Middle-East today.

Alas! Too little, Too late.

Sy Hersh's predicted scenario will probably develope SOON.

oh, do I use this kind of tags here?

No, and no, to anwer the questions.

Yes, it's worth it to propose and debate the issue and take a vote of some sort, whine and complain for an "up or down" vote like the gop does, but it doesn't make her previous vote better.

It doesn't make it worse either, so that's something.

Screw her. She's looking forward to being a War President. She's just hoping that Bush is stupid enough to start the war and take the blame for it before the election.

This is another comment that makes little sense. Why would HRC, if she is elected the first ever POTUS in American history, choose waste this historic honor and responsibility waging endless wars like Bush, the Village Idiot? Would it not be better for her to instead implement policies at home and abroad that would do justice to her and to all women who would follow her footsteps? Doesn't the weight of such a responsibility alone suggest to you that cheap wars of choice would do little for her legacy? THINK ABOUT THAT! HRC sounds hawkish because as a female she must to prove that she has cojones big enough for what has been heretofore a white male-only job. She is no more hawkish than her husband was. I had a long essay-post yesterday in another thread where I had elaborated on this... If I can find it I will post it here. But HRC is not as stupid as Bush, who was used by the neo-cons to wage a senseless war of choice thus squandering an opportunity to be one of the truly great POTUSes following the support and bipartisan goodwill that he had enjoyed after 9/11.... but I guess you know that already.

Why would HRC, if she is elected the first ever POTUS in American history, choose waste this historic honor and responsibility waging endless wars like Bush, the Village Idiot? Would it not be better for her to instead implement policies at home and abroad that would do justice to her and to all women who would follow her footsteps?

Sure, that would be better. It would be better for Bush to act like that, too. Yet he doesn't.

Edit: MAKE them filibuster.

I find it laughable that you call my posts mindless.

HRC Inc. voted to confirm that the army of a sovereign nation was a terrorist group. In other words, they voted to confirm Dubya's insanity. Again. After standing up and swearing they were misled.

It's criminal.

What Levin and Durbin did doesn't concern me, Feingold et. al. are the only ones who seem to get it.

dcshungu wrote on October 1, 2007 7:48 PM:

I find it laughable that you call my posts mindless.

They are even more mindless when you are even posting under someone else's my moniker...mine

...and that is no laughing matter. I assume that it was inadvertent, but please do not post comments under someone else's name.

Thank you.

"nauseating'
"manipulative"
"cold"
"War President" wannabe
"Screw her."
"20% less of a war-mongering imperialist than Bush"
"way too naive"
"particularly duplicitous"

Just a few of the thoughtful, reasoned, issue-focused comments on the 3,497th consecutive thread containing a positive message re HRC that was hijacked by the usual Hillogynists.

I see why dcshungu is a bit discouraged by the caliber of argument here.

It won't assuage my doubts about Clinton. Her vote for Lieberman-Kyl showed her to either be way too hawkish or way too naive.

Reflections on Clinton the "Hawk":
Is America ready to elect a female or a black POTUS? We'll see come November because it seems that the Dem will nominate either a black man or a white woman. But I think part of HRC's so-called hawkishness is to counter the perception that a woman would be too weak to be POTUS. To elaborate...

I am not privy to the internal deliberations or strategies of the Clinton campaign so that we I am about to say below is pure conjecture.

Mindful that HRC's 'weaker' gender might be a net negative for her in this macho world, I suspect that her campaign decided early on that her chances to be elected POTUS in a male-dominated world would be for her to show that she can be tough as nail. The "hawkishness" about her that many here have commented about would seems to me to be an attempt to counter the (wrong) perception that a female would not have the cojones big enough to deal with the likes of Mahmoud in Tehran, Kim in Pyongyang or Hugo in Caracas. This makes sense to me because HRC's top political strategist and adviser, Bill Clinton, was no hawk. He was a cerebral POTUS, whose response to rogue nations was always calm, measured and proportionate to the perceived offense. Little mentioned fact is that the same folks at PNAC (led by Bill Kristol), who ultimately convinced the current village idiot, GWB, to invade Iraq in a war of choice that's proved to be disastrous for US foreign policy, had actually tried to get Bill Clinton to invade Iraq, but he ignored them (see: Letter to President Clinton on Iraq, January 26, 1998). Please read the whole thing and look at who signed the letter and you will see that the Iraq invasion was a foregone conclusion waiting for its village idiot to be implemented. Here's an excerpt:

Given the magnitude of the threat, the current policy, which depends for its success upon the steadfastness of our coalition partners and upon the cooperation of Saddam Hussein, is dangerously inadequate. The only acceptable strategy is one that eliminates the possibility that Iraq will be able to use or threaten to use weapons of mass destruction. In the near term, this means a willingness to undertake military action as diplomacy is clearly failing. In the long term, it means removing Saddam Hussein and his regime from power. That now needs to become the aim of American foreign policy.

We urge you to articulate this aim, and to turn your Administration's attention to implementing a strategy for removing Saddam's regime from power. This will require a full complement of diplomatic, political and military efforts. Although we are fully aware of the dangers and difficulties in implementing this policy, we believe the dangers of failing to do so are far greater. We believe the U.S. has the authority under existing UN resolutions to take the necessary steps, including military steps, to protect our vital interests in the Gulf. In any case, American policy cannot continue to be crippled by a misguided insistence on unanimity in the UN Security Council.

With a top political adviser, Bill, who successfully shunned the neo-cons, I believe that HRC's so-called hawkishness is a deliberate compensation for the fact that she might not get credibility as a POTUS because she is a woman. She needs to beef up her cojones! I am not concerned about HRC as POTUS invading Iran in a war of choice. She'll be too busy crafting a record of positive achievements as the first ever female POTUS to get marred in endless wars. For the same reason, I believe that she will try to get us out of Iraq as quickly and as responsibly as possible. The world might be willing to help that happen if there is a change in top leadership in the US... I can see Bill Clinton being the US Ambassador to the UN and successfully undoing some or most of the damage that the current administration has done with our long time allies.

To many on this board, unless you are a Wellstone or a Feingold, you are hawk! Bill was no hawk and I do not expect his life-long partner to be either. It would make no sense...

Watson,

I have listened and I have read. Twice, just to make sure. If you would like to post the relevant bits of the transcript that prove your point, or a link to such or a link to the audio that would prove your point, please do so. The transcripts and audio I have read and listened to provide absolutely no context for "phony soldiers" except for a comment referring to a single soldier well after he made the comment. And "soldiers" is plural, not singular, so it's difficult to understand how he was just referring to one person.

"LIMBAUGH: Another Mike, this one in Olympia, Washington. Welcome to the EIB Network. Hello.

CALLER 2: Hi Rush, thanks for taking my call.

LIMBAUGH: You bet.

CALLER 2: I have a retort to Mike in Chicago, because I am a serving American military, in the Army. I've been serving for 14 years, very proudly.

LIMBAUGH: Thank you, sir.

CALLER 2: And, you know, I'm one of the few that joined the Army to serve my country, I'm proud to say, not for the money or anything like that. What I would like to retort to is that, if we pull -- what these people don't understand is if we pull out of Iraq right now, which is about impossible because of all the stuff that's over there, it'd take us at least a year to pull everything back out of Iraq, then Iraq itself would collapse, and we'd have to go right back over there within a year or so. And --

LIMBAUGH: There's a lot more than that that they don't understand. They can't even -- if -- the next guy that calls here, I'm gonna ask him: Why should we pull -- what is the imperative for pulling out? What's in it for the United States to pull out? They can't -- I don't think they have an answer for that other than, "Well, we just gotta bring the troops home."

CALLER 2: Yeah, and, you know what --

LIMBAUGH: "Save the -- keep the troops safe" or whatever. I -- it's not possible, intellectually, to follow these people.

CALLER 2: No, it's not, and what's really funny is, they never talk to real soldiers. They like to pull these soldiers that come up out of the blue and talk to the media.

LIMBAUGH: The phony soldiers.

CALLER 2: The phony soldiers. If you talk to a real soldier, they are proud to serve. They want to be over in Iraq. They understand their sacrifice, and they're willing to sacrifice for their country.

LIMBAUGH: They joined to be in Iraq. They joined --

CALLER 2: A lot of them -- the new kids, yeah.

LIMBAUGH: Well, you know where you're going these days, the last four years, if you signed up. The odds are you're going there or Afghanistan or somewhere.

CALLER 2: Exactly, sir."

benjoya et al

Yes, I'm sure you would. It's not enough for her to sign on as a sponsor of an anti-Iran war resolution proposed by one of this site's heroes. It's only deemed meaningful at all now if it passes.

Of course, if Hillary had NOT signed on saying that it had no chance to pass, these same purist posters would have been skewing her for that. "Cold, calculating, cynical, polarizing warmongerer!", they would all puff while stamping their little feet."

You blindered Hillary-haters all remind me of Mary Matalin saying that Hillary's last Senate victory was "meaningless unless she got over 65% of the vote."

Error in my previous post. To clarify, the line:
I see why dcshungu is a bit discouraged by the caliber of argument here.
should have also been italicized as part of the quote.

I for one will still not vote for any person in this entire country who was willing to sign on to have other folks children attack Iraq while not even bothering to read all the literature. these are other peoples entire lives she and others used to further their own political goals.

Anybody in this forum for one moment believe that these same clowns missed a fundraiser or party during this same time?

Of course not! These people are not even worthy of being in the same state as the soldiers who have given their arms, legs, and lives because they were not important enough for their representatives to fully examine the data before deciding to send other folks off to war!

anonymouse

I understand your passion and anger. I feel that way too and I strongly disagree, and disagreed at the time, with Hillary's vote on authorizing the war. It's important, it was wrong (in my opinion), and I don't minimize it.

That said, I'll vote for her if she wins the nomination, and I support her now as the best bet to beat the Republicans and bring a socially progressive agenda back to Americans. I like Obama and Kucinich especially and would happily vote for them (or any of the Democrats, even (ugh) Edwards), if most of my Democrat brothers and sisters nominate them.

I don't think it's in the interest of our country to sit out this election based on one vote (no matter how odious - see also, Patriot Act), and allow the Republicans to continue to flush our world down the drain. I'll bet if you look hard enough, even Russ Feingold has cast a stinker or two in his career that you would disagree with.

Thanks.

anonymously

I respectfully disagree. See my post right above yours for an example of my blinders.

In my opinion, once she wins the nomination and (especially) women, the largest and most active single voting bloc, start working and getting excited about electing the first woman president in our glorious history, I believe she will set the record for most people to ever vote for a presidential candidate.

Now for you more cynical and twisted Dems who grossly overstate your numbers, consider the sheer joy of sticking another Clinton in the eye of your real tormentors over the last sixteen years (That's the Republicans, not Hillary LOL).

I'll enjoy it while it lasts for eight years, thank you. Don't let the saloon door hit you in the elephant on your way out of the party.

The Hillary people fail to realize that their girl is disliked, not just by the right or by Hillary haters. There is a huge cross section of the Democratic Party that does not trust or believe in her and for good reasons that aren't petty or personal peeves.

Got any proof for that oft heard canard that is not supported by a single opinion poll that has been taken thus far. HRC is hauling in between an astonishing 60 and 70% of the vote in NY and CA, and beating her rivals (Dem and Repub) in almost every blue statee. So where are these Dems who despise HRC? I will tell you: there is a VERY small minority of Americans who are very passianate and loud, and do truly despise, not just Hilary, but also Bill. Fortunately, those folks live at the extreme fringes (left and right) of American politics and are, again, a very small minority. They won't affect any election unless the outcome is very close (viz. 2000 and the Naderites) and would never vote of HRC under any circumstance. So, we really won't miss them... yourself included.

anonymously

Again, I don't minimize your passion on the issue or the wrongness (in my opinion) of Hillary's vote on authorization of the war. But to call her a "war criminal" based on that is, well, I hope you have a "froth-guard" on your keyboard.

Also, John Kerry (JOHN KERRY!) has the record for most voters ever for a Democratic candidate. You really don't think Hillary will outpoll Mister Excitement himself!? What state that Kerry/Edwards took will Clinton not take by a bigger margin? You add Ohio and some of the other "purple" states in this here 2007 political climate that Bush scraped through with in 2004, and we're talking landslide, baby.

Come on, even you can find joy if you look beyond your dour cynicism and blind Hillary-hate for a moment. Go to a Democratic Party office. Talk to people. We love parties. We hug trees and bunnies. And we love Hillary. Get into it.

colonpowwow: Of course it is. That's how you came out with that precise 20%-less number.

If you'll read the original post... well, here:

Yup. I'd scientifically estimate she's about 20% less of a war-mongering imperialist than Bush.

...you can see that I myself was having a bit of fun with the 20% figure.

It is honestly how I feel about her, and I stand behind it on that level.

But I know I pulled the 20% figure out of my ass, and I said it half in jest, and I thought I had signaled that quite clearly.

DC

Just let me respond by re-posting some of the comments made about Hillary on a thread that follows her signing onto an anti-Iran War binding resolution (what a bitch, eh?):

"nauseating'
"manipulative"
"cold"
"War President" wannabe
"Screw her."
"20% less of a war-mongering imperialist than Bush"
"way too naive"
"particularly duplicitous"

Now, can you show me any such characterizations made of Obama, Edwards, Richardson, Biden? Okay, what word or phrase would you use instead of "Hilary-hate?"

People get excited all the time on here about Obama, Edwards, etc. Great. They're excellent candidates. Do you hear any of us Hillary supporters call them "blind," "idiots," "led by the nose by the corporate capitalist media." I've been called all these things and worse (think "azzhole on the take from the Clinton campaign."

I'll cheerlead for my candidate if I damn well please, thank you for your advice. If you want to know her positions on issues - read her website, or read about such things as her signing on to the Webb amendment and all-things-Hillary right here at TPM Election Central. Then after a post pointing out a positive Clinton position is written, don't let young children read the vituperative nonsense that always follows from the (whatever word you chose as more accurate).

We're basically laughing about it anymore.

ouch! so many typos in the preceding post!!! Hope you can decipher it...

This situation is prima facia evidence of why I will not vote for Hillary. To wit:
1) Webb is a leader because this is his proposed measure to reign in Bush's current unitary executive prerogatives and forstall the Iran war
2) Webb voted against the Kyl-Leiberkreig amendment for precisely the reason stated above, which is the designation of the Iran Army as a terrorist organization which flashed a big green go light on what Cheney has in the works
3) Hillary is now testing the waters as to whether to sign on as a co-sponsor, presumably because her focus group therapists drew a bad reaction from her yes vote on Kyl-Leiberman.
4) Hillary has shown NO leadership whatsoever in the Senate in terms of curtailing the Bush War Machine and in fact has been every bit as much a Bush enabler as the thug party because of her equivocal stances on just about everything related to foreign policy
5) I for one would rather vote for a leader than a focus-group-driven equivocator

Good grief, I thought I walked into a conversation among Republicans until I ran into DCD, colonpowpow and dcshunga.

From those of you who dislike Sen. Clinton so much, whom do you plan to vote for in the primaries and why?

I can't vote in the Democratic primaries and earlier today I wandered over to visit redstate to get my blood pressure up and, I've got to tell you, the tenor of the conversation also carries about a gallon of vitriol, but there it's aimed at Ron Paul.

My other question is this, if Sen. Clinton wins the nomination, will you who seem to consider her on par with Medea vote for her or the Republican or sit it out?

Enquiring minds want to know.

Yeah, kleefeld is a hack. Everything that moron posts could and should end up on Sargent's Horse's Mouth. Of course tpm and marshall went of the rails months ago so so maybe Sargent is out of place.

Anyway the hacktacularness of kleefeld:
February 14, 2007
IRAN: No Military Action On Iran Without Congressional Authority
Mr. President, at this moment of challenge for our nation, the vantage point of this august chamber, we look onto a world filled with danger, deeply complex threats against our troops and our national interests abroad, and genuine risks to our security here at home. Keeping our nation strong and our people safe requires that we employ the best and smartest strategies available.
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/news/speech/view/?id=1328

For the "liberals/progressives/etc" who agree with whatever they are told as long as it bashes a potential dem nom for pres:

kleefeld:
"Now she seems to be working to make up that gap by working with Jim Webb on a binding measure to stop a war against Iran.
...
And either way, will Hillary's signing on as a co-sponsor help to assuage liberal doubts about her positions on the Middle East?"

Could morons like kleefled be the reason some aren't sure of Hillary's position on the ME? Yes. Morons like kleefeld put a repub in the white house twice. Now they are working on a hat trick.

Now its possible kleefeld is not lying in this case and just has no idea what Hillary's position on war with Iran is. Its possible he was just typing away without a clue. Do ya think maybe he should have spent a second finding out what Hillary's position on the ME might be? Hmmm... maybe. I do. But only if he was serious. A brainless hack would just type away. So while its possible kleefeld is not lying in this one particular case the alternative is not so pretty either. I ask again why is this moron allowed to post here or anyway?

Why, thanks, mkolb, for the kind words - especially after enduring the usual Hillogynists on this board calling me an "idiot" and a "troll" for supporting my candidate with joy (and encouraging others to do the same for their preferred candidates). What a bunch of sourpusses the Hillary-haters are, eh?

I don't think they're going to vote for anybody (or is that for anybody-but-Hillary? - Their blind vituperousness positively gives me the vapours and makes me dizzy sometimes).

In 2000, I asked the progressiver-than-thous to please, PuhLEASE vote for Al Gore. It's very important I told them as I pleaded with tears in my heart.

This time around however, I am asking that they take care that the saloon door does not hit them in their elephant on their way out of the party.

Good Jah, that's liberating! And that's how I really feel about their self-important azzes and their dire warnings to us Hillary supporters based on nothing but Chertoff-like gut feelings about blowing the election (although nobody can point to any poll data showing how this will happen). Oh well, what does one expect from the self-proclaimed reality-based posters here.

VictorLaszlo

I just wanted to acknowledge that I misread your post and didn't catch your joke re the 20% thing.

My apologies, although I still disagree on your contention that Hillary is like George W. Bush in any meaningful way whatsoever re the war in Iraq.

Hillary has had months to sign on as a co-sponsor of Webb's bill. Now, just after ignoring Webb's plea to not vote for the Kyl-Lieberman bill, Hillary offers to co-sponsor the bill? Sounds more likely that this is another Clinton dodge.

She is getting roasted over voting for the Kyl-Lieberman bill. Her internal polls are probably showing it eating her very soft lead in the poll and so suddenly she leaps to sign onto a bill that gives her a soundbite on opposing Bush attacking Iran. Only the bill has no chance of passing and does nothing to prevent Bush from attacking Terrorist Organizations in Iran.

Shills for Hillary like dschunga and colonpowwow (pretty much the only two defending her, though they post so often its like they are trying to give the illusion of greater support) are in a fucked (the word is too perfect for the situation) situation of trying to pump up her completely inadequate gesture to appease Democrats and convince them again that she actually learned something from AUMF. Again, just like the man currently in the WH, she refuses to apologize for her vote. She, and her shills, are either lying about what the Kyl-Lieberman bill actually does or are completely clueless. I don't know which is worse.

Hillary is a fine Senator. She would be an excellent one if she would actually use her extraordinary mind to craft and improve legislation rather than trying to perpetually use it to position herself for a White House run. Her votes for AUMF and Kyl-Lieberman were abysmal attempts to appear strong. Instead they made her look more concerned with focus groups and polls than with principles and understanding the possible ramifications of her votes.

It is my hope that she will end her perpetual positioning for the White House after losing the Democratic nomination in 2008 and focus on being the excellent Senator she has the capability of being. She might find that come 2016, being an excellent Senator with an extraordinary mind is exactly the best positioning she can do to have people trust her enough to nominate her as the Democratic Presidential Candidate.

At this point, with all her non-answer answers. BS slander attacks of inexperience when she has less time in public office than any of the candidates running other than Edwards. Irresponsible votes in the Senate in ill advised attempts to position herself as Presidential. And her misguided assertion that the way to beat the Republican Attack Machine is to become just like it. Hillary has proven over and over again that she is the wrong choice to be the Democratic Presidential Candidate for 2008.

There's no getting around the fact that Hillary is a supporter of the war. Her ONLY opposition is to how it has been handled--not that it was immoral, wrong, illegal, or even just plain stupid. She is covered in the blood not only of our young Americans, but in the hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians who have been murdered, maimed and wounded in our name because Hillary Clinton and the rest of them abdicated their responsibilities and allowed an illegitimate tyrant to invade Iraq.

That's not hating her and it is far from irrational, it is recognizing who she is and what she stands for: bloodshed, chaos, destruction, mass murder--anything that furthers her ambition. Her vote enabled this ongoing criminal war. She has literally done nothing to bring the war to a halt. Nothing. Instead of demonstrating any leadership on this issue and helping to bring the war to a speedy conclusion she has been plotting how best to position herself for getting elected. A true leader would do what she knows is right regardless of the impact on her aspiration to become President. Ironically, it would be precisely that sort of thing that would catapult her into office, but she would never think that way. How disgusting and repulsive to think someone of her intelligence and ability would be willing to have others die as long as it was politically expedient for themselves. Trying to flip flop this week by supporting Webb's amendment after her enthusiastic vote for attacking Iran last week is grotesque and insulting to the intelligence of the American people.

The TPM World According To Michael Caine:

Prefer Obama, Edwards, Kucinich et al for the Democratic nomination = SUPPORTER

Prefer Hillary Clinton for same = SHILL

Got it. Thanks, as always, for your profound insight in explaining it all so clearly. And I know there's only just a few of us (called "Democratic voters" by some). Look at how all the polls support your piercing logic!

Oh, ouch!

Oh and you complaining about others being close minded is a riot, colonpowwow.

colonpowwow

Okay, you previous post is one option. I have another.

Polls at this point are measuring the chattering class, and that is all (check out recent analysis by Cost to back me up on this). Think about it for a second. Think of people you know who do not check multiple political blogs a day. Are they still persuadable? Do they know the difference between Guiliani and Thompson...Obama and Edwards?

If you're being honest your answer is yes.

Which means that polls are a silly thing to back your entire argument on at this point in time.

I don't like Hillary. I didn't like how she botched health care (granted, I was like 14) I didn't like her vote on the AUMF, and I see her vote on Kyl-Lieberman as backing me up. The fact that she moved towards Webb after the heat hit is ridiculous to me, she only did it for polls.

Her voting record is abyssmal, not because of the votes she cast the right way, but because of those she cast the WRONG way. Additionally, I want one, just one, issue she has EVER led on as a Senator.

Just one.

Both Josh Marshall's post pointing to this article and the first paragraph mischaracterize Webb's bill.

It does not oppose war with Iran; it forbids the administration to attack Iran without an explicit authorization from Congress, and has several exceptions that this administration will use if they need to to avoid seeking authorization (hot pursuit across border, etc.).

Furthermore, I believe that this Congress would probably give Bush the authorization to attack if he sought it.

Still, it's important for Congress to assert its war powers, and it's a positive step for Sen. Clinton to support it.

But in no way is it "binding legislation to oppose war with Iran".

(Just as the Kyl/Lieberman resolution did not "designate the IRGC a terrorist organization", something only the executive branch, specifically the State Department, can do. Josh, Sen. Clinton, Pat Lang, and others have all used this careless shorthand, which misleads readers unfamiliar with the process.)

oops! "to forbid"...

Plus Bush could drive a truck thru the hole left by the "large-scale" language. Of course he's not going to invade Iran in force like Iraq, he will use what is euphemistically called surgical air strikes.

Hillary is the favored candidate of the "investor-democrat": safe, as like, Starbucks. She more or less votes about the same as the neo-cons (excepting the pseudo-issue of abortion). She herself admits she did not even bother to read the intelligence reports provided to Senators pre-Iraqi war resolution.

Let's put it this way: if you consider Bush/Cheney war criminals, Hillary's a war criminal. She should be testifying about what she knew--or didn't know--in regards to the WMDs in Iraq. (on the other hand, a recanting ala Edwards doesn't really excuse anything, if the data was misrepresented, or invented).

Alas, most "conservative pacifists" (like the faux-leftist clowns at this site) can't quite figure out the little "consistency algorithm" in regards to the pro-war Demos..........

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