The Pelosi/Hoyer/Emmanuel leadership team is thoroughly incompetent.

Why are they even allowing amendments? The Rules Committee decides the terms of debate including how much time will be allocated to which side and how many amendments will be allowed. What a bunch of pathetic whores and cowardly losers they are.

In other breaking news:

Sun Rises in East

Dog Bites Man

Sky Blue

Poll: Bush at New Low

Will the Dems EVER stop being afraid of being called names? Why not just defeat the amendment and pass the bill as written? Oh -- because Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity will say they're soft on terrorism...

Their cowardice just might take them to minority status in 08 due to low turnout by the base and independents

Sissycrat leadership--Pelosi just is useless. If you can't deal with a meaningless amendment, what can you accomplish?

Final Score: Globetrotters (Rethugs) 174, Washington Generals (Dems) -23

I'm a little surprised at the comments posted here...the hysteria and venom toward the Democratic leadership is boneheadingly misplaced. Get a life.

Unreal. You'd think after getting sand kicked in her face for the past few months, Nancy would have figured it out by now. Same goes for Harry. What have we Dems done to deserve such hacks?

derekcito: "Will the Dems EVER stop being afraid of being called names? Why not just defeat the amendment and pass the bill as written? Oh -- because Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity will say they're soft on terrorism..."

Right. And if the Dems do what BOR and Hannity want them to do, Bill and Sean will send them flowers and volunteer for their reelection campaigns!

That's the part the Washington Gen... er, the Democrats don't seem to understand. The Republics and the fascist talking heads will slime them regardless, so even given that the Dems care what the opposition says about them (which they shouldn't), they're STILL better off just doing the right thing.

No trolls here. Just a lot people who are frustrated with Pelosi and Reid. These individuals are completely inept and have no leadership skills at all.

Thank you Rep. Hoyer for your DIGNIFIED response.
I don't know about everyone else but I think I can wait till next week and not respond OFF THE CUFF with venom and hysteria. So troll like.

I lost count of the number of times that, prior to last November, my D-congressmans' staffers told me, "We're in the minority. The House isn't the Senate. You have to understand, we cannot do anything at all. Sorry. Thanks for the call."

So they bring the bill under an open rule, and the GOP guy does this - liberals complain the the leadership loses.

Of course, if the leadership brought the bill up under a closed rule, then liberals would complain because then they wouldn't be able to introduce amendments to "fix" the bill. House leadership loses.

Of course, if they brought up a bill that the liberals wanted, then it would probably fail to pass, and the liberals would complain and the leadership loses.

So no matter what, liberals complain and the leadership loses, which is why I've been paying less and less attention to the liberal wing of the party as of late.

As Mark C. said above and has been discussion about through the House...why not let the whole FISA bill expire? If that's what the Republicans REALLY want. They have to convince more Democrates to extend it than we have Republicans to revise it.

quasar, it's not troll talk to express our contempt for the Dems repeatedly rolling over on one issue after another. My logical reasoning tells me the Dems have had control of both houses of Congress for this entire calendar year and they have yet to score a victory. It's pathetic.

I don't know what to suggest for some of this frustration. God forbid you throw your hat into the ring.

I would suggest to throw your hat into the ring. We have enough "fightin' keyboarders".

Looks like Cantor threw a Super Tuber into the bill...yeah, it makes no sense, so sue me.

Let's hear from a congressional parlementarian expert instead of spewing venon about incompetent Democrats.

I understand your frustration, but I would like to see answers to questions (like what is the next step in this kabuki dance of parlementary procedure.

Save a little of that venon for the Republican worms who devise ways to stop progress.

Also, why not just put the damn thing back in committe and allow it to sunset in February?

Marilyn in Texas

Both "quasar" and "JMillar" comment above about the "venom and hysteria" of "trolls" "spouting off" about the inept Democratic Congressional leadership. Sounds like two Demcoratic staffers worried about their jobs.

IF Democratic Representatives and Senators insist on following the cluess Reid and Pelosi, they'll soon be facing primary challenges in the 2008 election. It's not Democrat or Republican that will be the issue, but INCUMBENTCY. These corporate-controlled, incumbents in safe gerry-mandered districts are going to feel the wrath of the American voters they have ignored while actively or tacitly supporting the Bush admnistration in it cronyism, warmongering, Consitution-bashing, corporat servitude.

I don't care if you replace Republicans with Democrats (what's the real differnce?), just REPLACE all incumbents with Reps and Senators who understand democracy and the balance of powers under the Consitution.

Call it ""venom and hysteria" and label me a troll. It's just another sign of politicians and their inept staffers sick sick sick with Potomac Fever.

What I am is an American who wants his country back and who is sick and tired of Washington Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton, Congress enabled DO NOTHING status quo on real issues to protect corporate profiteering.

Return no incumbents to Congress in 2008. Period!

You folk hammering Pelosi are fogetting that the Democdrats objective here is to pass a bill that Bush ultimately vetoes.

The Democrats do not want to pass the FISA bill, they want to expose the fact that the Republicans are playing petty poitics.

The people who are going to get pissed off with these tactics are the few Republicans who actually care about national security.

Offering open rule debate is not bad politics, let the Republicans have as much rope as they like to hang themselves. The Democrats can now stemroller though anything they choose and if the Republicans squeak the Democrats can honestly reply 'last time we gave you an open rule debate you used it to filibuster a national defense bill demanded by your own President, if you will pay petty politics with that you can't be trusted with open rule.'

It's truly a race to the bottom. Who will do more to lose, The Elephant or the Donkey? This is probably why I am on the verge of punching every third person I meet.

PHB says "if the Republicans squeak the Democrats can honestly reply 'last time we gave you an open rule debate you used it to filibuster... you can't be trusted with open rule.'"

Sorry, I am laughing. I guess I am supposed to be impressed by PHB's knowledge of arcane Congressional rules and parliamentary procedures. I know this is "how Washington works." But Washington isn't working. Congress and its staffers are greatly impressed by complex process BUT IT IS ACCOMPLISHING NOTHING. FISA is a Constitutional balance of powers issue that should be decided by the Supreme Court, not bogged down in endless, meaningless Congressional maneuvers, while Bush violates federal law and the Contitution every day.

And what about Iraq/Iran, immigration, health care, social security, port security, education, the environment, tax reform, campaign finance reform, Congressional ethics, predatory lending, veterans benefits and on and on.

This Congress led by Democrats is accomplishing NOTHING on major issues. NOTHING. They are perpetuating the same legislative gridlock that gives Bush an unfettered playing field and supports the highly profitable status quo for Corporations. They point to introduced legislation, neaningless grandstaning hearings, but there arae no results, nothing changes, the nations needs go unmet.

Instead of taking delight in ultimately meaningless rules battles, Congress might pay attention to what the public wants. Reuters just reported the latest Zogby poll results: While Bush's job approval rating fell to 24 percent from last month's record, "a paltry 11 percent gave Congress a positive grade, tying last month's record low." "There is a real question among Americans now about how relevant this government is to them," Zogby said. "They tell us they want action on health care, education, the war and immigration..." "The bleak mood could present problems for both parties heading into the November 2008 election campaign," Zogby said.

Amen, Mr. Zogby. Members of Congress have lapsed into "job protection" as their only activity. Doing nothing is safe, they think. They make noise on issues,engage in unproductive process battles, but then serve corporate special interests by sustaining legislative gridlock.

We need honest, reform-minded individuals elected to Congress in huge numbers, to replace the complacent incumbents and reform this arcane, unproductive legislative system before the nation collapses from lack of leadership and proper governance.

Also from reports on the latest Zogby poll:

"Voter turnout could still be high next year, but the mood has turned against incumbents and into a 'throw the bums out' mindset," Zogby said.

Finally, finally, my views reflected in a national poll! Return no incumbents in 2008.

Let the horrid current law expire and GO BACK TO THE ORIGINAL LAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For a change Dems do not have to do ANYTHING!

NO IMMUNITY! Either Democrats get the RIGHT bill that improves FISA or go back tot he 1978 LAW which has worked FINE before these FASCISTS TOOK OVER!

DO NOT GIVE IN TO BUSH!

The real trolls on this thread are the ones who AREN'T pissed at the Dems (and, yes, I DO use "Dems" as shorthand, and I am as liberal as they come.)

If this were the Repigs, they wouldn't even allow amendments. Why does Pelosi? She's a terrible leader; a strong one would've had the whole country calling for the House Repigs heads for their obstructionism. Yet she (and Reid in the Senate) play the exact role the neocons want: mealy-mouthed milktoasts. Fuck them! Can't we get some real firebrands in positions of leadership?

And speaking of obstructionsism, why do the Dems passively say, "Well, we couldn't get 60 votes, so we didn't bring (whatever bill) up, because the scary Repigs threatened to filibuster it." Get some balls, and FORCE them to filibuster; it'll show America who's REALLY causing gridlock in Congress!

How stupid are Pelosi and Reid if they can't see what is so obvious?

Yes, REAL Democrats ARE pissed off!!

Rep. Cantor, you wanna rumble? I can't wait to see your future democratic opponent's tv ad describing how you "proposed an amendment specifically prohibiting investigation of al Qaeda & Osama bin Laden."

quasar, it didn't take six years to write the Constitution. After the Revolution, the country was operating under the Articles of Confederation. A federal convention was called to revise those articles, and it met in Philadelphia in May of 1787. It wasn't until mid-June that the convention decided to scrap the existing Articles and start from scratch. The delegates held their final meeting on September 17 of that same year to sign the resulting document. Three months, not six years.

The ninth state ratified on June 21, 1788. One year from the beginning of its composition to ratification.

Sorry, that was my "Anonymous" post on the Constitutional Convention. Drives me crazy that this new system will not remember the name from one post to the next.

Once again, the Republicans show how they conduct business; dirty and underhanded, and only to serve themselves

Bret wrote on October 18, 2007 11:54 AM:

When 100% of the democrats can vote for something and it still doesn't pass how is it that you can blame the democrats? And why would you call them spineless and afraid of their own shadows unless you were either A.) a troll, or B.) clueless about how our government works?

I'll take option 'C'; The Democrats have aided and abetted the Bush Administration for 6 years by trying to be 'bi-partisan' and cooperating. as a previous poster noted, Republicans play political hardball, to win, while Democrats just want to compromise. Sometimes, you have to go for the throat (metaphorically speaking,) and Dove Harry Reed is not the right man for the job. Feingold would be a much stronger leader than Reed, but then, who wouldn't?
I am no troll, but any caring American on the left has been frustrated by the inability of our "leaders" to take the fight to the enemy. When your first statement upon becoming Speaker of the House is that 'impeachment is off the table' you have already surrendered your strategic advantage, not to mention shirking your constitutional duties.
Republicans ruled when they had only a slight majority, and they continue to rule today. That's not troll talk. That's plain talk!