And, their ardent disciples will follow them over the cliff.

Onward, Christian soldiers…

I'm not sure I read it the same way as you. Dobson's demand is not for someone other than Rudy, but a candidate "who pledges himself or herself to the sanctity of human life". The way I see it, it's a shot across Rudy's bow, telling him he better fully renounce his pro-choice ways quick-like. Rudy's already well on his way, with surrogates claiming he's practically pro-life already. I guarantee if he gets the nomination, he'll have a Road to Damascus moment on abortion and all the crazies will rally around him.

Republicans should say goodbye and good riddance to that freak show 27%. Take back your party.

A candidate who respects the sanctity of human life?

So, they will not back a pro-war candidate then, right? And they will not support a president who vetoes a bill that gives poor children medical coverage, right?

Fucking hypocritical bullshit.

I think JZ's probably right that Rudy will have an "epiphany" and denounce his pro-choice past. But if he doesn't, I see a Ron Paul third-party campaign ahead of us.

So, who would accept such a nomination?

Has anybody anywhere declared their intention to split from the GOP on this and run on such a ticket? Even the more right-wing of the currently declared GOP candidates seem smarter than that.

'Cuz it reminds me of Al Franken in 1992, talking about how special the election could be for Democrats: "This year, we may come in third!"

JZ is right. This is power politics, with possibly a bit of kabuki thrown in.

F'r'example, say this rhetoric nudges some or all of the candidates a bit further toward the Christo-Fascist positions, and the eventual nominee makes at least some of the necessary noises. Dobson et al. can then pronounce themselves not entirely satisfied but nevertheless sufficiently so that they will not "at this time" proceed with a third-party effort (as if).

Presto! The Christo-Fascists gain both politically (by looking effective) and substantially (by moving the nominee's position), and the nominee 's credentials are boosted both with the Christo-Fascists (by becoming acceptable to their leaders) and to other voters (by appearing to be a "compromise" candidate).

Any bets that Ralph reveals he is "pro-life"?

Let's see, what politican who was in Salt Lake that weekend cares much more about retaining power than his party affiliation? Who has shown over the last 6 years that he could not care less about the Republican party?

The Cheney '08 campaign is born!!!!

would fred thompson run as their guy? he'd be a lot more of a threat to rudy than some nobody. there might also be a dynamic where people are afraid to nominate rudy because they know hillary would win in a rudy-thompson-hillary matchup and instead just nominate thompson so they'd have some chance in a head-to-head matchup vs hillary.

Social Conservatives believe that their influence is fading (i.e. the lack of a viable, truly socially conservative candidate), and they want to avoid the two scenarios that could render them totally irrelevant. The first is openly backing a losing Republican candidate, and the second is rejecting a successful Republican candidate. Either of these events would prompt bold headlines that the era of the values voter was over. Dobson will track the polls, and if he believes that Rudy is going to win the general election, he'll announce that God advised him to support the GOP candidate. If he thinks that Hillary is going to win, he'll back a third party cadidate and announce that the evangelical vote is essential to a successful Republican president. The religious right is fighint against extinction.

Saint Augustine wrote on October 4, 2007 10:49 AM:

"The group also discussed the possibility of creating a third party themselves, though there was no consensus on that question."

A clear violation of the separation of Church and State.

actually, it's a clear application of the constitutionally guaranteed freedom of association.

political parties are not 'the state'.

Dawn is absolutely right.
Furthermore, while Rudy may encourage others on this "Road to Damascus" (he would rather not call attention to this himself, because that will be uncomfortable down the road), he has something that's on the public record instead of a belief -- his acceptance of gays/lesbians (which is of course a necessity to be a New York mayor). Rudy can't finesse this. He also can't finesse his ugly second divorce and the extra-marital affair before it was official.
Dobson et al. may not call attention to this, but you know they must have thought about it.
Can't imagine this was designed to provide a boost to Romney (who has similar ideology problems but not nearly as severe), but these folks have to pick the least-bad alternative.

Overall -- for Guiliani, it's all about being a NYC mayor. Once you are mayor of NYC, forget about being anything else. The rest of the country (and even the state) doesn't want you.

Soooo ... if those wacko 27% decide that electoral politics aren't going to work out, how long will it be before they turn to violence? Perhaps now is a good time to invest in a company that makes brown shirts ...

schwza -- didn't Dobson also call Freddie out as "not a good Christian"?

The whole party seems to be about to dissolve in a giant round of "I'm Christian-er than you."

Couldn't happen to a nicer group of folks (er, volk).

Rudy has also done quite a lot of backpedaling on his "pro-choice" stance. Someone who pledges to appoint "strict constructionist" judges like Roberts and Alito to the Supreme Court is not really "pro-choice" in my book. So its quite possible that, just like 9/11 made him realize that Americans need to be packing heat, 9/11 will make him realize that women should no longer have reproductive freedom. After that, look for the lessons of 9/11 on gay rights....

My point is, all of this may be designed to make Rudy tow the Christianist line, but the more he does that, the less likely he is to pull votes from moderate Republicans, moderate Democrats and independents. Rudy's vaunted general election appeal is supposed to derive not just from his status as the Hero of 9/11, but from his reputation as a "moderate." No moderate who might have supported him as Mayor of New York would vote for the new, improved, Evangelical Rudy, even if they hadn't wearied of his vindictiveness, race-baiting, and serial infidelities.

If Rudy gets the nod - then the Christian values which has been touted for years was just a flim flam. If you are willing to throw the baby under the bus for a win - you have no principle and no Christian "values".

If you think you are right - whether pro-choice or pro-life...stick with it. If you cave just to win the WH - then the 27% are just $2.00 whores -

Great. This is win-win for everyone. The GOP loses and becomes irrelevant for 8 years, and the fever-swamp that is the Christian Right loses its hold on American politics. We will all be better off.

I think one of the reasons this is happening to Rudy now is that he's already trending downward. He shot to the top far too quickly, with excessive media coverage, and his shameful recitation of September 11th. Now he's fading fast as it becomes clear that he doesn't have any of the special experience, ability, or qualities that is sought in a president. He wants to be rewarded for September 11th in the form of a sympathetic, sentimental electorate giving him power he doesn't deserve. He's hoping that the media's canonization of St. Rudy, Patron Saint of September 11th is equal to national gratitude which will translates to votes. He's wrong, its not working that way, and Dobson & Co are now delivering the coup de grâce to his candidacy. This can't help but benefit Mitt Romney. I imagine he'll highlight this difference with Giuliani and position himself as the GOP candidate that the fundamentalists can get behind --that is to say if they can get over their bigotry toward his Mormonism. No small task, considering that's what they're all about. Either way, it helps Romney that Giuliani's officially persona non grata to the GOP voting base.

There is something that has been neglected. That is the response/reaction by the rest of the GOP who are pro-choice. Do they allow their party to be held hostage by the religionists? Or do they cross over and vote for the Democratic candidate? This overloading and blackmail of the Grand Old Party could lead to an implosion. Maybe not in the way that we think. But as far as the Dobsons are concerned it is their party and they (like Bush) will do whatever they like with it.
footsore

Here's what I don't understand - why have they not been more vocal in backing and financially supporting one of the candidates, like Brownback or Huckabee, who share their beliefs? Seems like if they really got behind one of them they could have an impact in the primaries.

Because they know that Brownback and Huckabee haven't got a chance in a general election, though I will have to say that Huckabee came across comparatively well in the Tavis Smiley debate.

The Christianist faction wants a Republican candidate that is "theirs," but they also want a strong candidate. I agree with JZ and litigatormom: this is a shot across the bow of whoever ends up with the nomination. They're saying, "Toe the line on abortion, gay rights, etc. or we will walk and you will lose the election."

I also agree with litigatormom that for Rudy, kowtowing to the religious right like that will negate a big part of what made him a strong candidate in the first place: potential appeal to moderate voters from both parties.

Oh come on. Who is buying this crap? This is all about forcing Rudy to pledge to ban abortion. The bible thumpers won't back a third party candidate. They always get in line behind the Republican daddy. They just want to make Rudy promise to ban abortion to cover their asses.

Rudy, of all the Republican candidates, is best equipped to move towards the middle on social issues in the general election. Dobson and friends are terrified that they'll be left out in the cold for eight years if Rudy manages to win - since Rudy's heart is not in the gay bashing, abortion banning agenda. More importantly, they will lose their standing in the rightwing religious community if they mindlessly back Rudy, only to have go all pro choice on them when he's president.

If Rudy promises to nominate judges who are pro life, Dobson and friends will give him their stamp of approval. These people care about their own power, not religious principles. They need to cover their asses when it comes to Rudy. If they extract a promise, they can point to that, even if Rudy fails to live up to the promise.

I don't think this is power politics in motion.

I honestly believe that Dobson's faction is well and truly enraged that The Hnadmaid's Tale is only a work of fiction and not yet a documentary. They have never had their opinions more closely converted into policy, and still they aren't satisfied with the rate of progress.

And I think that they know that they have only a certain time window with which to influence things. That it applies not only to the 2008 election cycle, but to their own following. They can see that the environment and certain issues like Darfur are starting to peel away their younger followers, cause some cracks in the edifice.

And the desire to tailor their fundi message to as many groups as possible is starting to make them very nervous as to its application. For example, I was witness to a fundi Goth-motif religious service in the San Diego area about three years ago (long story behind that) and it made the older overseers very, very nervous, when not outright angry at the organizers of the service.

What leaves me wondering is why Dobson and company don't just put their weight behind a Brownback or a Huckabee and feel more secure in the knowledge that they have a True Believer in their corner. Do the Money Republicans still have the juice necessary to force a Guiliani down their throats, like it or not? Or is it more that they want an accelerated rate at which their beliefs become policy, and their being told to lie low, given the possible direction of the 2008 elections?

owenz

If I'm not mistaken, Rudy has already pledged to nominate pro-life candidates to the Supreme Court if elected.

just john wrote on October 4, 2007 10:47 AM:
So, who would accept such a nomination?

Has anybody anywhere declared their intention to split from the GOP on this and run on such a ticket? Even the more right-wing of the currently declared GOP candidates seem smarter than that.

Gary Bauer (wow, that's a blast from the past) seemed pretty keen on the concept yesterday, and he'd fit their bill. But that is a disaster waiting to happen in terms of peddling influence.

I say more power to them. This way I get to watch the GOP attack itself, when it's already weak. Sweet. Plus, if Hillary gets the nod, I don't have to vote, and I don't need to feel guilty about it. (Added Bonus)

Go Dobson!

zk0sm0 wrote on October 4, 2007 11:08 AM:

I am not a lawyer nor have I ever played one on TV, however, I contend that religious organizations can not form a political party.

Is it not bad enough that these evangelical zealots have brainwashed their followers? Do they not realize that the more they dabble in politics the more politics will influence them.

If the collective voice of Christians in prayer had any power how come the world is at war?

Saint Augustine wrote on October 4, 2007 12:39 PM: ...

If the collective voice of Christians in prayer had any power how come the world is at war?

You really think Christians pray for peace? Puh-lease! Their central ceremony is cannibalism-by-proxy!

Another thought: This could provide Rudy with his Sister Souljah moment. He makes it seems he's going to do their bidding during the primary and then once he wins the nomination, publicly take on Dobson, figuring his only shot at the WH is to win back the independents who loathe the Christianists. But that would require some smarts from Rudy. He may be too far around the bend for that.

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