Reso Condemning MoveOn Passes Overwhelmingly, With Lots Of Dems

Comments (340)

jambro wrote on September 20, 2007 1:04 PM:

why was this even allowed to come up for a vote???????

Isn't that the point of having the majority!

phil james wrote on September 20, 2007 1:08 PM:

Democratic Senator = house elf

hwc wrote on September 20, 2007 1:10 PM:

Just what I was thinking. What is the matter with Reid? He KEEPS putting his fellow Democrats in positions where they are forced to make lose/lose votes.

It's crazy that he allowed that amendment to come to the floor of the Senate. It was purely partisan joke amendment.

DaveW wrote on September 20, 2007 1:11 PM:

OK, that clinches it: the Democrats are pretty much as arrogant and idiotic as the GOP. I spent a lot of hours with MoveOn calling voters on behalf of Webb and others. MoveOn and a very few other organizations are responsible for the Dems controlling the Senate.

Maybe it's time for MoveOn to move on to the Greens.

Kevin wrote on September 20, 2007 1:13 PM:

Great. Now can we get them to condemn those Enzyte ads (I Hate Bob!!) and maybe that stupid E-Harmony thing? I'm more offended by those than by MoveOn.

Anonymous wrote on September 20, 2007 1:15 PM:

Yeah, the Dems should be careful. MoveOn has been a huge help to them.

The whole point of introducing the Boxer resolution was so that they could vote no on this one.

jvill wrote on September 20, 2007 1:16 PM:

Whatever.

I just doubled my donation to MoveOn.

These spineless weasels can do whatever they want. There's 100 of them, but there's 3.2 million of us.

Terp wrote on September 20, 2007 1:18 PM:

The obvious response to this is to give money to MoveOn. I just did.

pseudonymous in nc wrote on September 20, 2007 1:18 PM:

What a pack of spineless fuckers.

This lets Cornyn, a dumb, ignorant, puffed-up piece of shit, gloat about it. Never mind that Cornyn is being bankrolled for his re-election campaign by Swift Boat funder Bob Perry.

This lets the wingnut wurlitzer bring up the vote between now and 2008.

And Harry Reid has shown his supreme inability to control the Senate. That he makes Bill Frist look like a master of parliamentary procedure is just shocking.

I'm off to donate to MoveOn.

And I want to see Republicans reading from phone books in a real damn filibuster before the month is out.

Thor wrote on September 20, 2007 1:18 PM:

I can only think of one person right now at this moment who has less intelligence than Bush....Harry Reid. Man what a total complete idiot! Way to go Harry...Now go give Trent Lott and his boys a shoe shine will ya!

lyle wrote on September 20, 2007 1:18 PM:

let's see if those same senators support a bill condemning the right wing attacks of Generals Taguba, Shinseki, Zinni, Odom, Clarke, etc.

Somehow i don't think that will be happening.

allsburg wrote on September 20, 2007 1:18 PM:

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

Where was Congress when Bobby Martin called me a poopy-pants in second grade?

kailuacaton wrote on September 20, 2007 1:24 PM:

I just donated a Hundred Bucks to Move-on. Does anyone know where to get some little plastic spines to send to the Senators you voted for this.

wwz wrote on September 20, 2007 1:27 PM:

Swiftboated by the Senate. I'm speechless.

Jan wrote on September 20, 2007 1:28 PM:

I will be very interested to see the list of Dems voting in favor. And I'll be happy to answer the call from MoveOn with a contribution to run ads against them.

I'm completely disgusted with my two Senators over the Webb bill (Gregg and Sununu) and now, sonovabitch, I'm disgusted with Webb.

I'm a Clinton supporter, and I'm actually a little surprised at her cajones on this, because her vote will be the highlight of Faux Noise for 24/7. But, kudos for every Democrat who had the guts to stand up for free speech, including her .
(Besides the fact that Gen. Petraeus DID betray our trust!)

U2 wrote on September 20, 2007 1:29 PM:

Dave and jvill and others

Arent you guys the same bunch of Nader-jokers that made absolutely sure that Bush not Gore occupied the White House: in a sense all you folks are directly responsible for everything happenign in this country right now !!

Graham wrote on September 20, 2007 1:29 PM:

Who voted for that piece of crap? Where can I get the vote results?

lovedog wrote on September 20, 2007 1:30 PM:

I pray that each of those gutless wonders just bought themselves a primary opponent.

Just to ease my rage, I sent way more than I can afford to MoveOn.org. . .

https://pol.moveon.org/donate/

Southern Beale wrote on September 20, 2007 1:30 PM:

What? No filibuster? I'm shocked, I tell ya, shocked.

jeffgee wrote on September 20, 2007 1:33 PM:

More profiles in courage from the Gelded Party. I'm not sending them any money until they start listening to the people instead of cowering everytime the GOP barks. They seem to forget that they won the 2006 elections and how much the GOP and their preznit are shooting themselves in the feet.
Do Fox News, the Weekly Standard and the National Review have the Dems so afraid of their shadows that they go along with the GOP on everything? The GOP sees compromise as weakness. Maybe it is.
Where's the list of Dems who voted for this piece of dreck?

Ron wrote on September 20, 2007 1:34 PM:

I made a donation to Moveon because of this idiocy.

Anonymous wrote on September 20, 2007 1:35 PM:

I'm a loyal moveon-er. This org played a material role in getting Dems elected to the House and Senate. It will play a similar role in getting a Dem elected to the White House next year.
If we didn't have orgs like moveon, kos, TPM, et al, we'd have to invent them.
Cannot begin to describe how encouraged I have been over the fate or our beloved Republic since the emergence and growing influence and eminence of these and similar groups.
I'm sending another donation to moveon today.
F**k every one of these worthless turds in both parties who made this shameless vote.

jan de bont wrote on September 20, 2007 1:36 PM:

What a bunch of loosers. As a supporter and member of Move-0n and a supporter of the ad, I cannot believe that the Democrats not supported this ad and again came out on the loosing side. What are the Democrats doing now they have the majority? Do they have no guts at all. Generals work for the American people, Congress, President and should be allowed to be checked. They do not have carte blanche or the right to make up their own rules and statistics. That is what our government is based on, checks and balances.
So now the Democrats lost again, the Republicans won, the American people lost in a big way. It is clear that no side is interested in what the American people want.
As for myself I have lost my faith in the Democrats and do not see why I still should support them. They are more and more alike.
Three million Move-On members cannot be wrong. This ad was absolutely necessary, the facts have to be told. This man was clearly lying and making up statistics that would benefit the Republicans.
Now Democrats have the same blood on their hands.
Thank God their were a few Democrats that dared to stand up. All the other one's should be replaced in the shortest of times.

Legalize wrote on September 20, 2007 1:36 PM:

The Reid-led Congress is a joke. They certainly do make it easier for me not to contribute to their campaigns. Instead I can just make the check out to "MoveOn" right?

gregor wrote on September 20, 2007 1:37 PM:

The Senate just codfied what we had all believed: it's ok to smear a Democratic militaryman but not a Republican toady.

Flamingo wrote on September 20, 2007 1:38 PM:

Dumb and dumber.

Move-On calling the General "Betray-us" was dumb, and distracted from the message.

But this resolution is dumber, especially for the troops in the field, for whom this means SQUAT....

Steve wrote on September 20, 2007 1:39 PM:

So now the Senate will spend its time attacking all the ads it disagrees with? Perhaps they'll next vote to have the authors tasered...

As others have already mentioned, Harry Reid has proven his inability to manage the Senate. No wonder he was so ineffective while in the minority. It's time for people to contact their senators and demand a change in leadership. It'll never happen, but it might wake up the slumbering Democrats who think reelection is automatic.

Move On wrote on September 20, 2007 1:40 PM:

Primary challenges for every Democrat who voted for this bill.

ArtElliot wrote on September 20, 2007 1:42 PM:

Dems who voted for it.

Baucus (D-MT)
Bayh (D-IN)
Cardin (D-MD)
Carper (D-DE)
Casey (D-PA)
Conrad (D-ND)
Dorgan (D-ND)
Feinstein (D-CA)
Johnson (D-SD)
Klobuchar (D-MN)
Kohl (D-WI)
Landrieu (D-LA)
Leahy (D-VT)
Lincoln (D-AR)
McCaskill (D-MO)
Mikulski (D-MD)
Nelson (D-FL)
Nelson (D-NE)
Pryor (D-AR)
Salazar (D-CO)
Tester (D-MT)
Webb (D-VA)

jareilly wrote on September 20, 2007 1:42 PM:

at first glance this looks like nothing more than false piety and grandstanding, as well as an object lesson in the utterly craven character of most Senators. It's a bit like the Repubs standing in front of the Dems, chanting "Bah Ram Ewe", then watching them fall neatly into line.

Unfortunately, I suspect it is something far worse (Boxer's counter-amendment was even worse in a way, because it was more global). This is the first step towards outlawing public criticism of the military, followed perhaps by prohibitions against criticizing other "beloved" or "maximum" leaders. This is the classic Repub assault on the Constitution. Having done away with the separation clause, the 4th amendment and chipped seriously at the 9th, now they are starting on the "free speech" language in the 1st. Soon, the whole damn thing will just be another piece or roadside litter, disappearing in the rear view mirror as we zoom on. Hey what's that up ahead? A road block? What for? Hey what do you mean get out of the car? What did I do? Terrorism? WTF? Help! Anybody, please !?!

Mr. Larry wrote on September 20, 2007 1:45 PM:

I don't think I can take this anymore. After seven years of following politics closely, I'm becoming insane. Everything inside the beltway including pundits and Congress is in a parallel universe. We write, and call and protest, and still we get this: Terri Schivo 2.0, which could have been stopped by Harry Reid, but was not.

Could one say this is a Potemkin government?

Mike Jones wrote on September 20, 2007 1:46 PM:

The MoveOn ad was in bad taste and politically tone deaf.

But good god, Harry Reid apparently has the parliamentary shrewdness of a wet sock. How does this help the Democrats IN ANY WAY?

phil james wrote on September 20, 2007 1:47 PM:

There is something that smells backroom about this. Like Webb may have gotten promised reconsideration of his troop home time amendment if he voted yes. His fellow VA Senator had already baackstabbed him on it so it couldn't simply be about restoring civility to public discourse. Tell me it ain't so JW.

Joe Klein's conscience wrote on September 20, 2007 1:47 PM:

Leahy voted for that piece of crap? What gives? Casey too? Figures that DiFi would. What does she have to worry about? She's a damn disgrace.

synykyl wrote on September 20, 2007 1:47 PM:

I just contacted my 2 Democratic Senators, to let them know I was contributing $25 to MoveOn, instead of to the Democratic party.

Money talks (even small money). I hope others will do the same.

MarcNYC wrote on September 20, 2007 1:48 PM:

Actually, what the two Senate votes made official Senate policy is that it is OK for Repugs to smear the military, ex-military or whoever they want, but that the Dems had just better keep their mouths shut. Amazing.

Paladin wrote on September 20, 2007 1:48 PM:

The only good thing about this is the Repubs have pretty now milked this for all its worth and the false furor should die down.

oleeb wrote on September 20, 2007 1:49 PM:

First, there is simply no excuse for allowing this measure to even reach the floor.

Second, it is proof that Reid and the Democrats are completely and utterly spineless, that anyone at all can outsmart them, and that it is hopeless to expect this crowd of pansies to act in any way other than the most cowardly, inept and weak. Reid and company make me sick.

js wrote on September 20, 2007 1:51 PM:

Obama was absent !!!!! why ?

CT Voter wrote on September 20, 2007 1:53 PM:

The Democrats are hilarious. Seriously. The fact that this bill was even voted on seems ridiculous. The hypocrisy of the Republicans is refreshingly intact.

This is the first step towards outlawing public criticism of the military, followed perhaps by prohibitions against criticizing other "beloved" or "maximum" leaders.

Nah. If that were even remotely true, the Boxer resolution would have passed. Republicans don't give a shit if you criticize the military or our dear leader, just as long as it isn't a Republican in the White House. To think that this is a first step is to give Republicans (and Democrats) a lot more credit than they actually deserve. jvill wrote on September 20, 2007 1:54 PM:

"U2 wrote on September 20, 2007 1:29 PM:

Dave and jvill and others

Arent you guys the same bunch of Nader-jokers that made absolutely sure that Bush not Gore occupied the White House: in a sense all you folks are directly responsible for everything happenign in this country right now !!"

Uh, I voted for Gore in 2000.

Are you seriously making the connection that donating to MoveOn in 2006 is the same as voting for Nader in 2000? "Directly responsible"? Really? Aside from the mind-bogglingly baseless accusation, I hope to god you're not teaching logic in our nation's schools.

You are aware that the majority of the American public agrees with MoveOn and suspected Gen. Petraeus was going to fib for the White House, right?

poetry wrote on September 20, 2007 1:54 PM:

Why didn't Barack Obama vote?

Howler wrote on September 20, 2007 1:56 PM:

I'm going to contact my senators (Murray and Cantwell) to THANK them for voting against this piece of crap. Arrrrrrrrrrrgh.

markg8 wrote on September 20, 2007 1:56 PM:

Not only that U2 the pol numbers haven't changed anywhere but the punditocracy in DC. Americans still hate this occupation.

bjobotts wrote on September 20, 2007 1:58 PM:

I just joined Moveon.org and sent them money and recommend everyone send one dollar to move on to rebel against the 25 dems and the GOP who care more about condemning an ad than giving the troops rest. My Senator from MO...Senator Claire McCaskill has voted with the republicans on every issue so far and should not even be considered a Democrat any longer. She has turned Lieberman...thinks she has 5yrs to make us forget she's a republican but we have 5yrs to find a candidate to run against her in the primaries. Another wasted vote...I won't vote republican but I won't vote for her anymore.

Carl from L.A. wrote on September 20, 2007 2:00 PM:

Boy, did I send my Senator, Dianne Feinstein, an angry letter.

She sure as hell will never see another nickel or vote from me, I don't care if she runs against Ted Haggard.

I've had it with these cowards.

Alan wrote on September 20, 2007 2:06 PM:

No more money for the Democrats. All of it goes to MoveOn ( remaining 3 contributions). I have had it with these bozos. First payment gone!!!

brendancalling wrote on September 20, 2007 2:09 PM:

harry reid just saved me a lot of money. I'm not giving one fucking nickel to anyone who voted in favor of this retarded resolution.

Instead, I'm giving $20.00 to MoveOn. I've had it with this bullshit.

Al from Boston wrote on September 20, 2007 2:09 PM:

Ummmm....the MoveOn.org ad was a pretty clear case of what Jon Stewart lambasted the other day under the rubric, "You're Not Helping." It was a childish and immature shot at a military commander. All it did was detract from the legitimate and reasoned criticism of the war, provide a fig leaf for those who shamefully want to defend the war, and further the misimpression that anti-war activism is ill-thought and reflexive opposition to the President.

The ad was stupid - not the idea of an ad criticizing the case for war, but the actual ad they ran. Even the good guys can do stupid things, and calling them out for being stupid doesn't constitute betrayal. MoveOn made it really, really hard for their friends in Congress to stand by them, and made it even harder for the people that they might *want* to become friends to move closer to them.

They have no one to blame but themselves for this outcome. Perhaps they'll exercise better judgment next time when they move outside of fora that are frequented only by the base, and into the broader public arena.

EKIM wrote on September 20, 2007 2:13 PM:

What does it take for my party to stand up to the right wing crazys. I called Feinstein's office and the official line from her staff is that "she may not agree with all his report, but she respects him as a man and soldier".

I told the staffer I would never support her again. That Moveon.org has raised millions of dollars for Dems and that I considered her vote cop out.

It is a world gone crazy!

Captain USA wrote on September 20, 2007 2:17 PM:

Error: Lieberman is not a Democrat.

Sagacity wrote on September 20, 2007 2:19 PM:

Bullshit, Al from Boston. Calling the bootlicking, ambitious general the same thing his men called him, "General Betray Us" is pretty mild compared to accusations of treason that fall from GOP lips routinely about anyone progressive. This whole thing is bullshit, and I'm joining those above in informing the Dems tha tI'll only be sending money to MoveOn from now on. And I've given them cash and time for 40 years and I've sent them more than I can afford for the last 6 years.

MoveOn did great--they really got their attention and infuriated Bushco. If the Dems would only stand tall for achange, they would see the bullies start to crumble.

Dave in ME wrote on September 20, 2007 2:19 PM:

The Democrats are morons, plain and simple. They should be taling Republicans to the woodshed on an hourly basis and instead they screw themselves. I just wish I knew why?

And ps - JOE LIBERMAN IS NOT A DEMOCRAT!!

Captain USA wrote on September 20, 2007 2:20 PM:

The Democratic party must be purged.

Mark wrote on September 20, 2007 2:21 PM:

This just underlines what I’ve been saying since before the mid-terms. Dems’ allegiance is with military $$$, not voters. The Dems aren’t gonna bring the soldiers home.

Anonymous wrote on September 20, 2007 2:21 PM:

It's long past time Feinstein faced a serious primary challenger.

Denise wrote on September 20, 2007 2:22 PM:

I just gave MoveOn $100 and sent Feinstein an email telling her how spineless I think she is. The Dems keep letting the Republicans manipulate them.

More outrage over an ad than the death of so many and destruction of a country, and our rights.

mk wrote on September 20, 2007 2:25 PM:

Thanks, ArtElliot, Yet *another* disgusted and disappointed email to my Bush-Dog senator coming right up. And, the check to MoveOn is already in the mail.

For those who want to wring their hands, snatch at their pearls, and swoon at the gasp (!) inappropriate and juvenile nature of the Betray Us ad, you don't seem to understand that it doesn't matter what the Dems do. We can be reasoned, be logical, be polite, be bipartisan, and it will not earn us one whit of cooperation from the Republicans in the senate. Not a whit. I call y'all Concern Tolls.

hwc wrote on September 20, 2007 2:25 PM:

Note that Clinton and Dodd voted against the "Cornyn/Reid" amendment.

Obama and Biden were present, but opted not to cast votes.

hubbawah? wrote on September 20, 2007 2:25 PM:

Lieberman is NOT a Democrat.

Mark wrote on September 20, 2007 2:27 PM:

Hey Al from Boston:

It's one thing for someone to publish a dumb ad. It's a totally different level of idiocy for the Dems (who owe their majorities to the publisher of that ad) to help Senate condemn it.

VM wrote on September 20, 2007 2:27 PM:

When is Feinstein up for re-election, again?

EvanR wrote on September 20, 2007 2:28 PM:

It's entirely appropriate to respond to this circus act in the Senate by donating to Moveon. It's also fair to ask why this vote couldn't have been avoided in the first place.

But as strong a supporter of Moveon as I am, the "General Betray Us" gimmick was clumsy, ineffective and in poor taste. A too clever by half play on words that did not make for an effective political message. And effectiveness is what we care about, right? (i.e. ending the war quickly and responsibly). Numerous polls cited on Election Central have indicated that most Americans were already suspicious of the politicized nature of the so-called Petraeus Report, and even more suspicious about the prospect of open-ended war itself.

Why distract from that with hysterical sounding name-calling? It's appropriate to deflate the hype over Petraeus' testimony. I get Greg's digs over "Scholar- Warrior Petraeus". But let's stay focused. Trying to demonize the guy personally was a waste of Moveon's resources. Even Juan Cole considers Petraeus a competent professional. Why play into the GOP narrative of the selfless professional soldier being wronged by overheated left-wing critics. The ad was an invitation for jokers like Cornyn to change the subject.

JIm Webb's opposed the war in Iraq since it was gleam in the neocons eyes. He's been an awfully powerful spokesman against it. It would have been nice to see him acknowledge the phoniness of this resolution, but it's not suprising he'd part ways with Moveon over this particular message. I wouldn't want to be associated with it either.

But let's not get caught up in this distraction ourselves. The answer is to maintain pressure for an rapid, intelligent end to the war -- and to elect more members of Congress who will vote to end it.

Fortunately the vast majority of Moveon supporters are far too smart to ever again support the kind of suicidal Naderite nonsense that helped get us into this mess in the first place.

Al from Boston wrote on September 20, 2007 2:29 PM:

Sagacity, it was a childish maneuver - one appropriate for a shock-jock on AM radio, not a political group that is trying to become a serious player in national politics.

Just like the red meat GOP base loves it when the lunatics on the radio start calling progressives "traitors" even for asking questions about the war, it's no surprise that our base loves MoveOn taking a potshot at an administration figure. But a potshot it was, and a phenomenally stupid political blunder. For goodness' sakes, Pat Leahy voted in favor of this resolution and *he voted against the war in the first place*!

It was a poorly-though political stunt, and one that deserves scorn for its stupidity. Clearly it was ineffective. It accomplished nothing of what MoveOn wanted to do, and it gave GOP apologists a fantastic opportunity to change the subject.

Even better, instead of inspiring die-hard democrats to redouble their efforts to try to increase our majority in the Senate, you've got people talking about withholding support and working to unseat incumbent Democrats! All that does is divert resources away from races where we could pick up seats.

I've been volunteering and working with Democratic campaigns since Dukakis. This was a dumb move, one that most Americans would disagree with (even if they are against the war) - which is why the Dems couldn't and didn't want to throw themselves on a grenade to save MoveOn from some well-deserved public embarassment.

Ferruge wrote on September 20, 2007 2:30 PM:

I have made my first-ever political donation today. And it was not to the Democratic Party.

The political tonedeafness is in Washington, not with MoveOn. And that is why I donated. And thanks, synykyl, I too will contact both my Senators and explain to them very slowly (so they understand) what I did and why.

Joe Eversole wrote on September 20, 2007 2:31 PM:

Jan De Bont

Generals Do Not work for the American People, or the Congress. They work for the President. If you don't understand the Military, do a little reading.

Joe Matthews wrote on September 20, 2007 2:34 PM:

Assinine. Is that how you spell it?

The good general has already given us warning he'll run for President in 2012. Will we be prohibited from criticizing him?

"Of course I need more time, but I'm doing a heckuva job."

There are two kinds of Democrats in this list. Some kept their pants up and dirtied their knees, the rest are giving it up the bad way.

GOP Die Hard wrote on September 20, 2007 2:37 PM:

MoveOn (err, MoverOver) & the Dems (err ,MoverOver II) are getting exactly what they deserve. They are both becoming irrelevant.

Harry Reid needs to get naked to count to 21!

chigger wrote on September 20, 2007 2:42 PM:

I felt like the left shoe had finally dropped when I saw the MoveOn ad. The right shoe dropped back following 9/11 when Preznit Bush stood on the pile of rubble of the WTC and the men in the crowd grunted the Tim Allen ape grunt to show their approval.

That the Dems on either side of this issue can feel so emotional about this ad, which was no more than a childish taunt unworthy of attention, that they would waste time on such garbage, but won't "waste time" or emotion on the trashing of habeas corpus just blows my mind. I'd consider that time of my Dem Congresspeople better spent sitting around while they force the Republicons to actually carry through with their threats to filibuster the restoration of habeas corpus. But, no, they have to attend to more important matters.

onceler wrote on September 20, 2007 2:43 PM:

jeezus h. christos on a stick! how did this steaming piece of feces come up for a vote? why on earth was this even being addressed in the US Senate?

we need to overthrow the government.

Flamingo wrote on September 20, 2007 2:46 PM:

Give me a break. Primary challenges based on this vote? Get a life. Weak, weak, weak. MoveOn screwed up. We should not be talking about a stupid ad. We should be talking about Iraq. They blew it. I completely agree with Al from Boston.

db wrote on September 20, 2007 2:47 PM:

It's been noted by others, but to be specific, there are at least five names on that list that MoveOn worked on behalf of in '06: Cardin, Casey, McCaskill, Tester and Webb. Many volunteers had to swallow hard to make calls for some of these folks, because the likes of Casey and Tester can hardly be called progressives. But MoveOn's message to the troops, implicit and explicit, was that attaining a Democratic majority was more important than anything. It's hard to defend that logic now, and it's going to be a lot harder to get people to work for "Democrats" like these in the future.

linda lou wrote on September 20, 2007 2:49 PM:

This ad is a symbol of the idiocy of the left, that is the democratic party. The democrats have moved so far to the left that they are hanging over a cliff.

Eli Pariser will be the democrats' next presidential candidate.

Moveon is extremely dangerous!

Kelly Burnett wrote on September 20, 2007 2:49 PM:

How phucking dare they, free speech is free speech, I am so ashamed to be a Democrat, I will soon be an independent, and hope and pray that in the next election someone needs with a set of BALLS will run for office, your all selfserving cowards!

slappy magoo wrote on September 20, 2007 2:50 PM:

Al From Boston,

You can believe the ad was a bad decision. Hell, I won't even argue it.

But, really, a resolution on the Senate floor to condemn Moveon, and the ad? This makes it the same sort of cheap political theater on the right you seem to believe the ad was for the left. At some point, an actual grownup should have approached the floor and said "This is all B.S. If Petreaus can deal wtih an enemy trying to kill him in battle, he certainly has the stones to deal with a little criticism from Moveon.org. The fact that some of you want to make this a big deal indicates, to me, you don't think Petreaus can handle it, which I consider an even bigger insult. Let it go." But the Dems, in true shickenchit fashion, allowed the bully boys of the minority party to puff their chests and bellow loud enough that it doesn't sound so much like petulant whining, allowed them to bring the condemnation to a vote and now, be default, anyone who supported these Dems now feel betrayed.

In short, this never should've been brought to the floor. Senators could've gone on MTP or H&C and wringed their hands and cried about the injustice of it all. But it never should've been brought to the floor.

Brendan wrote on September 20, 2007 2:51 PM:

Absolute garbage. We can't get so much as a symbolic vote against the war, but this comes up for a vote and passes overwhelmingly.

I'm done with the Democrats. Ineffectual, lilly-livered failures. Guess I need to find out who the third-party candidates are.

Zifnab wrote on September 20, 2007 2:52 PM:

I'm not sure if this has already been pointed out, but you listed Lieberman as a Democrat. You might want to correct that.

Dyspeptic wrote on September 20, 2007 2:53 PM:

The breathtaking maladroitness of Harry Reid's allowing this resolution to come to a vote on the Senate floor is matched only by the intergalactic stupidity of the original MoveOn ad.
It's almost as if MoveOn had been hijacked by right-wing campaign saboteurs: "Let's publish an ad so over-the-top, so gratuitously offensive, that the Republicans in Congress will be able to rub liberals' noses in it. Maybe the Senate majority leader will even be naive enough to let us bring a condemnation resolution to the floor of the Senate for a vote--but that's surely too much to hope for."
Double your contributions to MoveOn? Oh, puh-leeze. The organization has shown colossally poor judgment here, and should be take the heat they deserve for it. I'd suggest a search for a new Senate majority leader. We Democrats have irresolute representatives and moronic leadership. More's the pity.

Terradea wrote on September 20, 2007 2:54 PM:

I just donated to MoveOn.org. It seems like the only thing I can do that makes any difference (or sense) at all.

From now on, every time I read or hear something utterly disgusting regarding our government's behavior, I will donate something to MoveOn.org. Maybe it'll make me feel better.

kulshan wrote on September 20, 2007 2:54 PM:

so I assume all these folks wasted congressional time condemning the swift boat too??

Mark F. wrote on September 20, 2007 2:55 PM:

Why the fuck is Lieberman's name listed? He's not a Democrat.

The MoveOn ad was mind-bogglingly stupid and sophomoric, but is this really and issue that Congress needed to deal with? My God, these people are idiots.

randron wrote on September 20, 2007 2:55 PM:

Do these Dems think that we're going to turn out en masse to vote for them in 2008? I'VE HAD IT! I'VE ABSOLUTELY HAD IT WITH THESE CLOWNS! What, Dems don't believe in free speech anymore? All military personnel are infalible and beyond reproach? Will General Pretraeus begin his next propaganda routine by walking on water to the "ooohs" and "aaahhhs" of Congressmen and Senators. Nevermind! Walking on water isn't even necessary to distract these Bozos - just a nice SHINEY OBJECT!

Anonymous wrote on September 20, 2007 2:55 PM:

Joe Eversole: Emigrate to a military dictatorship. I suggest Myanmar.

Sophie in VA wrote on September 20, 2007 2:56 PM:

Very dispiriting . . . Tactically, MoveOn's ad was a mistake. But what are we doing VOTING ON ADS in the Senate!!!!

RobinF wrote on September 20, 2007 2:56 PM:

Feinstein? Leahy (Et tu, Patrick? Even after being told to "go fuck yourself"?)

And WEBB????? Does he think this will win him Repug votes for his next save-this-broken-army measure?

I can't imagine even Larry Craig engaging in such a shameless display of ankle-grabbing!

disgusted wrote on September 20, 2007 2:57 PM:

It's incredible (I wish I could say unbelievable) that these Dems support a purely political move against one of their most influential supporters. They go on my list of Dems who betray us, and my money, too, goes to MoveOn.org. May they help us find progressives to run against these DINOs.

onceler wrote on September 20, 2007 2:58 PM:

what is up with the wusses who are all ashamed of this ad? get over yourselves! the ad was not "tone deaf" or "wrong" at all, are you forgetting that ALL of these people are actively betraying us, every day, and charging us for the pleasure as well? some people's priorities are so far out of whack that there's just no hope. fuck whatever general du jour bush has decided to hide behind. they all deserve nothing but scorn and ridicule.

MaryinBelltown wrote on September 20, 2007 3:02 PM:

Stupid vs. NotStupid ad is not the point. The right to speak and print your political opinion without the coercion and condemnation of the U.S. Congress, that is the point! More than ever I see that we need a president who will fight for us and fight the Democrats in Congress. I support Edwards who loves winning, who invites a good fight as another chance to win.

Linda wrote on September 20, 2007 3:02 PM:

Well that does it. Once the dollar launches into full free fall many of us may not have much to give - but the money I do have to contribute will not go to any political candidate. It will go to moveon and I hope many, many others will do the same. The branches of our government are all rotting away and our legislators waste time passing resolutions. I would say silly resolutions, but this one is a slam at free speech.
How can any of those people be serious about debating and passing a resolution to condemn moveon when our economy is seriously going into the tank. What is wrong with those people. ALL OF THEM. To hell with them. Leahy should be ashamed of himself. So should Bayh, my Senator of whom I have been thoroughly ashamed for some time. I will never again vote for a democrat or a republican. But I will damn sure vote.

Pickle wrote on September 20, 2007 3:02 PM:

why was this even allowed to come up for a vote???????

Because many Democratic Senators aren't traitors and wanted the fact made clear.

25 apparently are.

onceler wrote on September 20, 2007 3:05 PM:

pickle - go to a republican site and go be a republican with your fellow republicans. you're not wanted here.

Sid wrote on September 20, 2007 3:05 PM:

I am so embarrassed to be a democrat.

dexxjones wrote on September 20, 2007 3:05 PM:

funny. i never saw any resolution condemming savage or coulter.

i am starting to feel there is no hope. and i have news for everybody- if people begin to give up, nader is going to snatch a bunch of votes. again.

as for me, i am seriously looking at ron paul. flame me if you will, but i will NOT vote for hillary

randron wrote on September 20, 2007 3:05 PM:

Does anyone know if ANY Republicans voted for the Boxer resolution. If not, what the bloody hell were Democrats doing voting for Cornyn's ridiculous resolution? Our government is B-R-O-K-E-N! More and better Democrats, PLEASE!

Ni Daye wrote on September 20, 2007 3:05 PM:

I believe the MoveOn ad is over the top. Calling Petridish "betraying us" is just too harsh. the Democrats are basically cornered by the MoveOn clowns. With friends like these people, who need an enemy?

Boxer's bill is plainly silly. Taking advantage you can, the Republican bill is totally reasonable. To show Hilary's spine, she should have condemned it, at least in the mode of Biden. Voting against the bill is not going to be good for Hillary, unfortunately. For Obama to skip this vote on MoveOn is a profile in courage, LOL!

Ray wrote on September 20, 2007 3:06 PM:

I'm getting a new bumper sticker.

It'll read "Imprison moveon.org."

Have a nice day, traitors.....Eli and his band of bribe giving traitors and their money bag source Soros should be passing their days in the graybar hotel.

Hopefully, the IRS is even now getting ready to raid you.

Lisa wrote on September 20, 2007 3:10 PM:

I think it is pretty dangerous to have senate votes on ads. What a slippery slope! Wouldn't it have been better for the Senate to distance itself from groups like MoveOn by not voting on such a measure? Stupid Stupid Stupid!

jcs wrote on September 20, 2007 3:11 PM:

How about holding those swift boater fuckers to the same standard?

MaryinBelltown wrote on September 20, 2007 3:12 PM:

It wasn't "over the top." What this outrage among Democrats reveals is the power the pentagon has that is way beyond what the Constituion allows. Is your senator afraid of the pentagon? Is your favorite candidate afraid of the pentagon? Can a candidate win the presidency who promises to cut the pentagon's budget and spend it on the people, who promises to close down our 700 military bases abroad? Will MoveOn insist that the candidates state their positions on 700 military installations in 130 countries?

glh wrote on September 20, 2007 3:14 PM:

Cannot believe the Democrats are still kowtowing to this administration, letting this get to the floor for a vote. Seems that everybody has now bought into the myth created by this administration that the military is above anything negative. Message to troops: You're stuck in the Iraq quagmire, but at least we won't be saying anything bad about you.

MaryinBelltown wrote on September 20, 2007 3:17 PM:

RIP: We didn't say anything bad about you.

Ni Daye wrote on September 20, 2007 3:25 PM:

"Lisa wrote on September 20, 2007 3:10 PM:
I think it is pretty dangerous to have senate votes on ads. What a slippery slope! Wouldn't it have been better for the Senate to distance itself from groups like MoveOn by not voting on such a measure? Stupid Stupid Stupid!"

Interesting! Is it possible for Democrats to block the vote to happen at all? I suppose Democrats are just not as astute as Republicans, or not as sleazy and opportunisitc. I suppose when Kerry or Cleland was attacked, they could have brought the same kind of resolution. Voting down Boxer bill is totally reasonable. You cannot put mitary figures out of question forever. There real unsavory military figures such as Colonel ..., the one ran against Robb for the Virginian seat being held by
Webb.

Brendan wrote on September 20, 2007 3:29 PM:

F*ck the Democrats. The more I think about this the more infuriated I become. I don't give a crud about MoveOn. I think the ad was foolish.

But the Democrats have been completely, 1000% outmanuevered by the GOP since the day they took over the majority. Reid ought to be tossed out of the leadership before the end of the day.

Thucydides JR. wrote on September 20, 2007 3:30 PM:

More evidence they are scared of the slightest threat of being branded anti-military, and will jump to whatever tune that piper plays.

SeeDee wrote on September 20, 2007 3:33 PM:

Yet another disgusting example of Harry Reid's ineptitude..

To AlfromBoston and Evans: Publishing the TRUTH is NEVER childish' nor in 'bad taste'. The Moveon ad DID tell the truth, didn't it? I notice there is NO criticism of the veracity of the ad's content.

The twenty-five 'democrats' who supported this assault on freedom of the press and freedom of speech are, like Petraeus, guilty of gross betrayal of the American public, not just other Democrats.

anonymous wrote on September 20, 2007 3:34 PM:

Step 5 to a fascist America - Harass citizens' groups.

Doofus wrote on September 20, 2007 3:38 PM:

I've had it. Plug me into the Matrix, please.

Shii wrote on September 20, 2007 3:39 PM:

What the fuck is this shit. Maybe that girl on the Colbert Report is right, it's just 10 easy steps to a police state.

Shad wrote on September 20, 2007 3:41 PM:

You can see the results of the roll-call vote for S.Amdt. 2934 on the Senate website.

This is what they were voting on:

Statement of Purpose: To express the sense of the Senate that General David H. Petraeus, Commanding General, Multi-National Force-Iraq, deserves the full support of the Senate and strongly condemn personal attacks on the honor and integrity of General Petraeus and all members of the United States Armed Forces.

I don't understand why everyone seems so upset that the majority of the Senators voted to support the General they confirmed just a few months ago and condemn personal attacks on the honor and integrity of the troops?

Ni Daye wrote on September 20, 2007 3:43 PM:

SeeDee wrote on September 20, 2007 3:33 PM:

Check this site out about MoveOn's claims. http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/?hpid=topnews

There is no question MoveOn clowns have not helped our cause with this stupid ad. Move on!

joel wrote on September 20, 2007 3:43 PM:

just gave $50 to moveon

Random wrote on September 20, 2007 3:43 PM:

This is simply too funny. I can't tell you how pleased this makes those of us in the middle. Give your whopping $100 to MoveOn, boys and girls, and help drive the Democrats right off that cliff!

Donald from Hawaii wrote on September 20, 2007 3:44 PM:

MoveOn.org is thus condemned for a personal insult, while the chief architects and perpetrators of this international outrage continue unimpeded.

Good job, Harry Reid. I know I'm really enjoying this ride in the "Handbasket to Hell" -- how about the rest of you?

Bosnie wrote on September 20, 2007 3:45 PM:

I just called both my Democratic Senators who voted for the resolution and THANKED THEM! As a LIFE LONG Democrat I am sick of radical nut groups like MoveOn hijacking my party. They are no better than Pat Robertson on the right.

Yashmak wrote on September 20, 2007 3:47 PM:

The ad was a terrible idea, and sought to influence public opinion before the report was even given. No matter what your take on the report itself, that ad reinforced the idea in US public opinion that the Democratic party cares less about facts than about their agenda. MoveOn is already reeling from this mis-calculation, and is likely to find its influence grossly reduced once the primaries are done.

Just a prediction.

gypsy howell wrote on September 20, 2007 3:50 PM:

I don't think the Democrats care if we vote for them or donate to them anymore, or they wouldn't keep doing every thing they can to piss us off. They must have some other plan up their sleeve. Losing. Yeah, that's a plan. It's always worked in the past for them.

thomas wrote on September 20, 2007 3:53 PM:

So, free speach is only for republic smears. When any organization even slightly aligned with the Democrats critizes the actions of the republic administration - if anyone thinks that Betrayus wasn't carrying the Cheney/bush water I'm always open to selling bridges - free speach is to be condemned.

I guess this is another milestone day in our country's history. The Senate, with substantial support, condemned free speach.

Unmitigated Audacity wrote on September 20, 2007 3:54 PM:

The infantilization of America is complete. We are standing at the abyss of the greatest monitary collapse and depression in history, are pissing away $10 billion a week in the Mideast in tragic, failed wars, losing soldiers every day to death and disfigurement, killing and making dozens and hundreds of new enemies each day, oil is over $80, millions more uninsured each year, millions of good paying jobs outsourced each year, we have a sociopath and a pychopath in the executive branch - and all our brave, noble and brilliant Senators can think of to fill their time is to debate a frickin' newspaper ad??!! This country no longer deserves to survive, and I have no doubt that it won't.

George wrote on September 20, 2007 3:55 PM:

Liberman is not a Democrat. Please fix...

Rick Ewing wrote on September 20, 2007 3:56 PM:

When does the senate censure Bush for allowing the swift boat liars to denigrate John Kerry's service?

Iris wrote on September 20, 2007 3:57 PM:

I called Senator Bob Casey's office (D-PA) about his vote. Sadly, he is my senator.

I expressed my dismay that the Senator had just voted against free speech, i.e. The U.S. Constitution. The 12 year old who answered the phone, and was barely able to form coherent sentences, told me that is not true, and attempted to present me with an analogy on the Iraq surge... and how it is a similar Senate move.

Moron. They truly think every American is touting the same IQ of 85 that they all have.

Ray wrote on September 20, 2007 3:58 PM:

jcs: "How about holding those swift boater fuckers to the same standard?"

You know something, I agree with you. Really.

Let's make both MOVEON and the Swiftboat veterans transparent. Completely transparant.

Let's see who the donors are.

Let's see if either is violating the campaign contribution laws.

Let's see who's tax forms are correct and truthful, and who's isn't.

Let's see the biographies of the directors of both organization and their long-time political affiliation.

Let's see who gets their money. Candidate and amount.

Let's see WHO is telling the truth and WHO is lying in their ads.

Let's do it!

Who's with me?

Donald from Hawaii wrote on September 20, 2007 3:59 PM:

Pickle: "Because many Democratic Senators aren't traitors and wanted the fact made clear."

So, anyone who doesn't vote for a resolution condemning an exercise of free speech is a traitor. That would include Sen. Daniel Inouye, a World War II veteran and Medal of Honor winner who lost his right arm fighting the Nazis.

You're really pathetic, Pickle.

Rick Ewing wrote on September 20, 2007 4:02 PM:

When does the senate censure Bush for allowing the swift boat liars to denigrate John Kerry's service?

Terp wrote on September 20, 2007 4:04 PM:

Uh oh...someone left the troll door open.

NJ Lawyer wrote on September 20, 2007 4:05 PM:

I have been attacked before for saying this, but Reid is ineffectual. It's time to replace him.

That said, the ad should have made its point with facts rather than a label.

Ray wrote on September 20, 2007 4:07 PM:

Dear Donny from Hawaii,

Defamation (what you moveon clowns did in your ad) is a recognized exemption from the protections of free speech. It's like yelling "fire" in a crowded theater and it's actionable.

As for that "traitor" bit, I am reminded of Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes' opinion in Schenk v. US (it was unanimous, BTW).

"When a nation is at war many thing which might be said in time of peace are such a hindrance to its efforts that their utterance will not be endured so long as men fight and no court could regard them as protected by any Constitutional right." [Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Schenk v. US, 249 US 47, 52 (1919)]

So, if the Rebok's fit, wear them in pride.

Have a nice conservative day in America's 50th.

Rick wrote on September 20, 2007 4:09 PM:

Why is LIEberman on the list? He's no Dem.

mgmonklewis wrote on September 20, 2007 4:12 PM:

Why is Lieberman listed with the Democrats? Although he may caucus with them (when he's not sticking a shiv in their backs), Liberman is not a Democrat; he is an "Independent."

It's bad enough that so many Democrats voted for this stupid bill. Do we really have to get stuck with Lieberman too?

Ray wrote on September 20, 2007 4:14 PM:

Terp sayz: "Uh oh...someone left the troll door open."

I suppose you are referring to me. But, as a troll exists to disrupt conversations (see Wikipedia), that's not my purpose. My purpose is to tell the other side of the story.

This *IS* a public forum, after all, isn't it? TPM *claims* to be a MEDIA organization.

The fact is that the First Amendment works both ways. You get to screech your hatred of Bush, Republicans, conservatives, the war, etc., and I get to express my opinion of YOU, your tactics, and your goals.

Welcome to the marketplace of ideas! I know having the "rabbits" fight back is discomforting, but how else does society progress.

Isn't freedom wunnerful?

EvanR wrote on September 20, 2007 4:16 PM:

Look people, I care about free speech. I've been an active member of the ACLU since I was eighteen.
But Moveon's mission as I always understood it is mobilizing the grassroots the make a substantive impact. An essential part of that being politically savvy.

If you care about substance, specifically ending this war, ask yourself this: did the ad help or hurt that cause; did it prove more a counterproductive distraction than an effective message to the general public and MSM?

David Petraeus is not the issue. The GOP was trying to make him the issue to take the focus off of the war itself -- and Moveon played right into their hands.

Those of us who have vocally opposed the war from the start -- including most of the readership of this site -- aren't the issue either. We don't need to be persuaded by an ad in the Times. The point of an ad like that is to seize effective publicity and reach the less politically active middle we need to persuade and mobilize so we can actually end this war.

Sometimes it's more viscerally satisfying to throw brickbats from the margins, I understand that. I always stand up for free speech as a matter of principle, but what we need here is free and effective speech.

Everyone on this site who has allowed this stupid sideshow to demoralize them, who is threatening to divert their support in counterproductive directions is making the Cornyns and Bushes and Cheneys of the world very happy. First, Moveon marginalized themselves and all opponents of the war and allowed the Bush's allies in Congress to change the subject from trying to end unpopular war to all of these superficial meta-issues: is Petraeus a hero or a traitor. Give me a break. Now many of you are so upset -- and are thinking so irrationally -- that you are promising to throw your support the same people whose machinations helped hand the Presidency to Bush in the first place.

More and better Democrats IS the answer. You aren't punishing "lily-livered" Dems in Congress when you throw your support from an anti-war Dem to a third party. You're simply making it easier for pro-war Republicans to gain election to Congress. You're easing the way to a Thompson or Giuliani administration.

I believe we can be tough and principled and politically effective at the same time. Is that too much to ask?

Ray wrote on September 20, 2007 4:18 PM:

Let's tell the truth here about Joe Lieberman, shall we.

He *was* a Democrat. He still *is* a liberal. He still votes *as* a liberal Democrat - except in one instance.

And for that, you people (acting like brownshirt purists right out of 1933 Germany) force him OUT of the party.

My goodness, the only thing you people didn't do was yell "BURN HIM AT THE STAKE" for heresy like a bunch of reformation era Catholics!

He didn't leave the party - YOU left him!

VictorLaszlo wrote on September 20, 2007 4:19 PM:

Trained monkeys. Disgusting.

I just made my first-ever donation to MoveOn.

SeeDee wrote on September 20, 2007 4:22 PM:

Leaving aside WaPo's well-known pro-war (Iraq) attitude from the outset, Di Naye, the link you provided (Wapo's Dobbs' 'fact checks) presents ABSOLUTELY NOTHING concrete to refute Moveon's claims as shown in the ad.

The rebuttals are equivocation at its best, never totally rejecting Moveon's presentations, but trying to obfuscate each statement with "while there is some truth" and/or "Prtraeus may have been", etc., etc....

One would have to be REALLY looking for some 'gobbledy-gook' to bolster an already-formed opinion to put much stock in 'Fact Checks' 'facts' in this case.

But my main gripe is.....: what justification is there for Democrat leadership enabling such an idiotic resolution to come to a Senate vote in the first place?

What about the obvious condemnation of freedom of speech in this case, Di Naye?

NJ Lawyer wrote on September 20, 2007 4:23 PM:

Lieberman vote against cloture on habeas.

So it's not really one issue.

Ray wrote on September 20, 2007 4:23 PM:

VictorLaszlo: "Trained monkeys. Disgusting."

Hi Vic! How was the flight from Casablanca?

Ya gots to remember, they are YOUR monkeys, boyo. After all, didn't Eli say that you bought and paid for them?

woodstock stu wrote on September 20, 2007 4:24 PM:

Shameful. The leader of the war pigs is called out for what he is (a lying cold hearted baby killer) and this is the representation you get. Time for the Progressive party all.

VictorLaszlo wrote on September 20, 2007 4:25 PM:

Ray, Joe wants to kill brown people for fun and profit.

IMO that makes his position on global warming irrelevant.

mo2 wrote on September 20, 2007 4:26 PM:

It is not whether the ad was good or bad -- it's that the US Senate just wasted another day. What's that equivalent to? 2-6 US deaths in Iraq on an average day?

How many votes did the Democrats gain from this theater? None. Not one. Not one pro-war-person who voted Republic (sic) in 2004 will vote Democratic in 2008 because of the Dems condemning MoveOn.org today.

jaf wrote on September 20, 2007 4:27 PM:

WHY IS LIEBERMAN LISTED AS A DEM?

RBS wrote on September 20, 2007 4:27 PM:

The dems continually disgust me. They should abosultely have stood up for move.on and loudly say that Petreus DID betray us in his testimony and in his actions. We need a new Senate leader; Reid is hopeless in framing the issues, building coalitions, and formulating strategies. The dems should be sticking together on these issues. I just sent move.on $150. I wish I could have affored ten times as much.

Ray wrote on September 20, 2007 4:27 PM:

NJ Lawyer: "Lieberman vote against cloture on habeas."

Which was the correct vote in this case.

POW's don't have Habeas rights, they're covered by treaty (Hague and Geneva). Neither do non-US citizens held outside the United States.

Didn't they make this clear in your ConLaw class?

The sage of lex wrote on September 20, 2007 4:29 PM:

Petraeus is a political toady no more or no less than Gonzales. He has expressed interest in running for president in 2012. If Moveon "made it's ad up befor the Patraeus report came out." Its because everyone knew what it would say months ago!

Ray wrote on September 20, 2007 4:29 PM:

woodstock stu, have you spit on a soldier yet today?

Owl wrote on September 20, 2007 4:29 PM:

...So voting to condemn Gonzales is a waste of the Senate's previous time despite the fact that he's run the DoJ into the ground, but VOTING TO CONDEMN AN ABSOLUTELY INSIGNIFICANT ADVERTISEMENT is a good use of time?

o wow :-(

exhelodrvr wrote on September 20, 2007 4:34 PM:

Seems like most of you think that General Petreaus is actually a traitor for what he is doing!

Incredible!!

Ray wrote on September 20, 2007 4:35 PM:

VictorLaszlo: "Ray, Joe wants to kill brown people for fun and profit."

Oh?

You can prove this?

You have a speech, perhaps, where Joe stands in the Well of the Senate and sayz:

"My fellow Senators, we haven't killed enough BROWN PEOPLE this year. There are not enough videos of BROWN PEOPLE BEING SLAUGHTERED on the COMEDY CHANNEL for me to laugh at. How am I expected to turn a profit when there are NOT ENOUGH BROWN PEOPLE BEING KILLED for fun and profit?"

Maybe you were imagining this, perhaps?

Maybe you are delusional, too? Just a thought.

Tsk, tsk.

Ray wrote on September 20, 2007 4:37 PM:

The sage wrote: "He [Gen. Petraeus] has expressed interest in running for president in 2012."

KEWL!

Now if you can supply a link to this statement, it'll make my day!

Thanks!

NJ Lawyer wrote on September 20, 2007 4:42 PM:

Ray, stop being so supercilious.

In the words, of Joe Biden:

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/053605.php

“As I’ve said before, the terrorists win when we abandon our civil liberties. The way we win is to show them that we can fight this war without changing our character as a nation. I hope the Senate reconsiders this issue once again.” . . .

“The position urged by the Administration, that we must choose between Constitutional rights and fighting terrorism effectively, is simply wrong. Our strength as a nation, and our status as a world leader, is based in part on the fact that Americans do not choose between national security and liberty; we demand both,” said Sen. Biden.

TUSK wrote on September 20, 2007 4:43 PM:

Moveon is FUCKED!

Real Americans get the grift of your anti-troop, military gist and we're sick to death of it. You have crossed the line this time and now you will suffer the consequences.

the sage of Lex wrote on September 20, 2007 4:44 PM:

Why must we be revrent and listen to "the man on the ground" when we know if he does not say what Chaney wants, we will get another "man on the ground?" Petraeus is NOT A GOD, he's a hack! Wearing a uniform does not make him HOLY!

Ray wrote on September 20, 2007 4:44 PM:

Owl rightly points out:

"So voting to condemn Gonzales is a waste of the Senate's previous time despite the fact that he's run the DoJ into the ground, but VOTING TO CONDEMN AN ABSOLUTELY INSIGNIFICANT ADVERTISEMENT is a good use of time?"

Bravo.

You see it.

Your first point: Absolutly a waste of time. Gonzales is GONE. If he committed any crime, it is now in the jurisdiction of the Grand Jury.

Your second point: Voting to chastize an anti-American organization who libeled an officer in the United States Army during a time of war after they called him a TRAITOR, is a perfectly valid exercise of the Senate.

So, you're correct on both counts.

Well done. Have a cookie.

????? wrote on September 20, 2007 4:44 PM:

It's amazing how the wolves will turn on each other.The "Free Thinking Intellectuals" in this room just played into everyones hands.You just made MoveOn a shit ton of money,you just gave the GOP more votes in '08,not to mention more leverage in the senate now.On top of everything else,Your own party looks more and more divided each and every day,and your the ones doing it.Talk about the GOP shooting themselves in the foot.Your tanking your own cause here.Get your heads out of your ass,GET OVER this vote and stop the child like shit talking.Move on to something more important.

Vince wrote on September 20, 2007 4:45 PM:

This is side splitting! You guys are soooo easily led. Eli Pariser puts seasoned con artists to shame.

When he spends $65,000 of your hard earned money for juvenile ads, You dig deeper and line his pockets with even more money.

You get what you pay for!

NJ Lawyer wrote on September 20, 2007 4:45 PM:

The people who are spitting on the soldiers are the ones who sent too few troops to Iraq (ignoring Gen. Shinseki), too little body armor, and without a plan for the peace.

Jasper wrote on September 20, 2007 4:47 PM:

Since when is Gen. Patraeus such a sacred cow? He should be able to handle a critical ad. You would think the Senate has more to do then parrot GOP talking points. Maybe if more of their kids were fighting and dying they might be more aware that there is a horrible war going on.

NJ Lawyer wrote on September 20, 2007 4:48 PM:

Hey Tusk,

Read a poll before you smear the American people.

John Adams wrote on September 20, 2007 4:48 PM:

One worthless man is a shame,Two is a law firm,Three or more is a Congress.Any more would be the useless lemmings who line MoveOn.org's pockets with their senseless donations.

nicteis wrote on September 20, 2007 4:52 PM:

Ray:

Lieberman is not a Democrat. As you acknowledge, he is foolishly committed to making the United States begin, and endlessly pursue, pointless wars in the Middle East. I don't hold that against him particularly; he suffers from an inability to distinguish between the decrees of AIPAC and Israel's actual national interest, to say nothing of America's. But he comes by that inability honestly.

However, he is also committed to destroying the Constitution of the United States, voting against habeas corpus, voting for torture, and voting to fill the Supreme Court with devotees of the cult of uncheckable executive power. Those aren't the positions of a liberal. They aren't even the positions of an American.

Finally, he has been committed for years to backbiting and second-guessing and bad-mouthing his "fellow Democrats" on national television at every opportunity, decrying their lack of "bipartisanship" whenever they fail to take their orders from Republicans.

We understand why another member of his religious persuasion (I refer to the Church of Licking the Presidential Seals on Bush's Cowboy Boots) would find him congenial. But there are a great many more reasons than one why he has left his party - and in some instances his country - rather than the other way around.

Ray wrote on September 20, 2007 4:55 PM:

NJ lawyer, stop being ignorant.

Prisoners of WAR have ZERO "Constitutional" rights.

None.

Nada.

Zip.

Really, you ought to read the Geneva convention some time.

As for US citizens, Habeas isn't absolute.

"The privilege of the writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it." Article 1, Section 9, paragraph 2.

You HAVE read about the Civil War, haven't you? Abe Lincoln and Justice Taney?

And you heard about the internment of Japanese-Americans and German-Americans in WWII? Earl Warren - Google it!

So, one could argue that Biden and the rest of the Defeatocrats who voted FOR the bill are, in fact, voting to VIOLATE the Constitution. Yes?

VictorLaszlo wrote on September 20, 2007 4:55 PM:

Ray: You can prove this?

He has supported the Iraq war/occupation from the start. Read a newspaper.

/done with the troll

Ray wrote on September 20, 2007 4:58 PM:

"However, he is also committed to destroying the Constitution of the United States,..."

nicteis, I thought you said he wasn't a Democrat?

Ray wrote on September 20, 2007 5:00 PM:

Vic: "Ray: You can prove this?"

Prove what?

Hurry though, I've got errands to run and I'll be going soon.

[No doubt some of you are applauding at that right now. Don't worry, as they say: "I'll be here through Christams."]

Gloating in CA wrote on September 20, 2007 5:04 PM:

Reading these comments is hilarious! The shameless acknowledgment by you MoveOn.org lemmings (that being that you bought and should, therefore, OWN the Democrats) is a refreshing change from the lying, deceptive efforts of yore.
Thank you for finally being honest about something.

Ray wrote on September 20, 2007 5:04 PM:

[crickets chirping!]

Well, bub-bye for now libby-dems.

Seeya later.

The holy hand grenade wrote on September 20, 2007 5:09 PM:

Those of you who believe a man in a uniform is above critique should click your heels and say, there's no place like China, there's no place like China!

woodstock stu wrote on September 20, 2007 5:16 PM:

The ameriKan military is part of the problem, Ray. It fights to sustain itself. We didn't go to war because of oil, we invaded Iraq because of oil and because of ignorant sheep like you. But general betray-us doesn't need a reason to kill other than killing is what he does.

Kudos to the ad and kudos to the rest of us for condemning these spineless 25 twits.

NJ Lawyer wrote on September 20, 2007 5:23 PM:

Ray,

Stop being formalistic and obtuse.

If it was in the Constitution, the Senate wouldn't have to vote to grant habeas rights to them.

Duh.

This country is strong enough to grant them habeas rights.

Why do you hate America?

TUSK wrote on September 20, 2007 5:29 PM:

"But general betray-us doesn't need a reason to kill other than killing is what he does."

And this people is the defining opinion of MO.org and the true belief of the troop hating scum that make up this anti-american group of traitors.

Where's the HUAC when you need it.

shoes4Industry wrote on September 20, 2007 5:32 PM:

Patreaus' own boss called him an "ass kissing chicken shit"... move on.

http://shoes4industry.blogspot.com/

the sage of Lex wrote on September 20, 2007 5:35 PM:

Ray, Google "patraeus for president."

fuzz wrote on September 20, 2007 5:40 PM:

I didn't care for the way the MoveOn ad was done; I would have preferred a simple presentation of the facts.

But I am furious that this was allowed to come to the floor after the three Republican filibusters yesterday.

Furious.

I spent over an hour last night defending these Democrat clowns in Congress to a group of people who'd become disillusioned. "Slow and steady" "we're the good guys, we have to play fair" Blah blah blah.

That won't happen again.

Marc wrote on September 20, 2007 5:43 PM:

I think everyone is overreacting to outrageous extremes about this. We all need to realize the fire-breathing from the Republicans over this ad has been because they know they have no leg to stand on with the public over this war so they drum up this false controversy.

We certainly don't need to cannibalize our own over this supremely stupid issue. All this talk about primary challengers is beyond ridiculous. Voting for this resoultion is not nearly as big a mistake as voting for the war and we certainly don't hold that against John Edwards, Hillary Clinton, John Kerry and the countless others who voted in 2002 to authorize it. I think we all need to just cool down and think rationally about this. These Senators were put between a rock and a hard place and while I salute all those who voted against this amendment, I simply won't allow myself to get all worked up over those that did vote for it.

TUSK wrote on September 20, 2007 5:44 PM:

"Democrat clowns in Congress"

Got that right!!!

Evan wrote on September 20, 2007 5:45 PM:

My Senators, recently elected Cardin and old warhorse Mikulski both voted for this filthy attack on freedom of expression; I guess Maryland has two DINOs to represent us. The real criminal is Reid who once again proved he's not the right man for the job by letting this come to a vote at all.

MoveOn got a donation from me because of their ad, and are far more likely to get any future money I can spare than any of these Senartors.

A liar who is a general is still a liar and I am glad somebody had the guts to say so.

Bob Sloggin wrote on September 20, 2007 5:46 PM:

lol... now if we could only have Bolton for President. Smoke dope, vote anything but democratic....

TUSK wrote on September 20, 2007 5:53 PM:

"A liar who is a general is still a liar and I am glad somebody had the guts to say so."

A 4 star General (Airborn Ranger) with more ribbons (medals) that you can shake a stick at and you call him a liar?? Thank god we have men like him in the service protecting us and not some terrorist appeasing schmoozer like you.

Ferruge wrote on September 20, 2007 5:53 PM:

If the Senate wants to condemn the ad, let them - condemnation is pretty much all they're good at. But maybe they could find some time in their busy ad-condemning schedules to actually think about ending this Iraq Debacle. You know, if it's not too much trouble, and it doesn't offend the delicate sensibilities of Dear Leader and the General He Likes to Hide Behind.

the sage of Lex wrote on September 20, 2007 5:55 PM:

I'm astonished Repubs could pull themselves away from their bus station bathroom sex long enoulf to have a vote.

Ferruge wrote on September 20, 2007 5:56 PM:

"Where's the HUAC when you need it."

And now you see the mentality of the people we're up against. It didn't matter what the ad said - they were going to act hysterically no matter what. Why Democrats see the need to pander to such immaturity and irrationality, especially on the part of a minority political group, is beyond me.

TUSK wrote on September 20, 2007 6:00 PM:

"I'm astonished Repubs could pull themselves away from their bus station bathroom sex long enoulf to have a vote".

Yeah, you have one of them also and his name is Barny Frank. Oh wait...I thought the Dems were tolerant of ALL sexual persuasions? Typical liberal do as I say and not as I do BS.

My bad.

Michael Volpe wrote on September 20, 2007 6:01 PM:

So how big is the politics of this? Obviously, all Dems just want it to go away. It hasn't yet, but it will soon enough. Will this have significant damage or just marginal?

Parrothead Jeff wrote on September 20, 2007 6:06 PM:

I'm glad this finally happened. I noticed in the comments that Feinstein voted for it. Credit where it's due - thanks Dianne!

dadanarchist wrote on September 20, 2007 6:09 PM:

Dodd should have written "it's time to MoveOn and end this war."

TUSK wrote on September 20, 2007 6:12 PM:

"So how big is the politics of this? Obviously, all Dems just want it to go away. It hasn't yet, but it will soon enough. Will this have significant damage or just marginal"?

Oh, it's big alright. You don't attack a 4 star General, especially a highly respected man like Petraeus, in a time of war and expect it to go away like a zit on a teenagers nose.

This will haunt the dems and they will lose seats. You can thank MO.org for this one.

Victor Lazlo wrote on September 20, 2007 6:18 PM:

I am waiting for someone with enough balls to ask Petraeus about his Bronze Star for Valor.

The Tuke wrote on September 20, 2007 6:28 PM:

I love it... Great group think in here. Keep it up X'ers... prove to the world your uncanny inability to hold two opposing arugments in the same noggin. Your all so open minded!

That ad was disgraceful, disaffected drama mongering and the you types just love that kind of drama... wonderful reinforcment of your angst. Keep it up. Keep opening that mind... give more money to your zeitgeist MO.

StaggerLee wrote on September 20, 2007 6:33 PM:

TUSK wrote on September 20,
2007 4:43 PM:
Moveon is FUCKED!

Real Americans get the grift of
your anti-troop, military gist
and we're sick to death of it.
You have crossed the line this
time and now you will suffer the
consequences.

I'm so sick of "real" Americans like you I could puke.

pcon-T wrote on September 20, 2007 8:10 PM:

Check out this post by one of the scumbag Lefty haters, above:

from "pseudonymous in nc":
September 20, 2007 1:18 PM:
[What a pack of spineless fuckers.

This lets Cornyn, a dumb, ignorant, puffed-up piece of shit, gloat about it. Never mind that Cornyn is being bankrolled for his re-election campaign by Swift Boat funder Bob Perry.

This lets the wingnut wurlitzer bring up the vote between now and 2008.

And Harry Reid has shown his supreme inability to control the Senate. That he makes Bill Frist look like a master of parliamentary procedure is just shocking.

I'm off to donate to MoveOn.

And I want to see Republicans reading from phone books in a real damn filibuster before the month is out.]

This is what we conservatives mean when we talk about the bile-filled lefty hate-sites. Sure, they're on the right too, but by no means as sick and twisted as the far left scum such as this jerk, who, true to form, is "off to donate to MoveOn".

TUSK wrote on September 20, 2007 8:15 PM:

"I'm so sick of "real" Americans like you I could puke".

Well start the puking brother. It's one thing to dissent, quite another to dis a 4 star General in charge of OUR troops in harms way. Nothing you can say can make up for the total lack of respect MO.org has shown towards or troops.

Thank god you cowards weren't around when Uncle Adolph terrorized Europe. We all know the outcome of the Viet Nam war due to you Commie appeasers, Over 3 million dead!

Ain't gonna happen this time!

pcon-T wrote on September 20, 2007 8:16 PM:

Evan wrote on September 20, 2007 5:45 PM:

[A liar who is a general is still a liar and I am glad somebody had the guts to say so.]

PROVE THAT PETRAEUS LIED, Evan. Just prove it. Did he lie because he said something you don't like, supporting a war you don't like, a president you're genetically predisposed to hate?

Don't give me garbage from lefty hate-sites. He can have honest disagreements with the Iraqi military about what constitutes a casualty without being a liar. If having supported Bush during the '04 election makes him a liar, then 99% of academia, Hollywood, and the worlds of journalism and the media would be discredited for supporting Democrats.

No lefty B.S., Evan. Just facts. Why is Petraeus a liar?

TUSK wrote on September 20, 2007 8:22 PM:

"No lefty B.S., Evan. Just facts. Why is Petraeus a liar"?

Because Bush stole the election in 2000 and they just can't get over it, that's why.

They hate Bush and Republicans in general, anyone who doesn't agree with their Marxist pov.

Julles wrote on September 20, 2007 8:32 PM:

You all crack me up! "I'll never give to another Democrat again...I'll give to Moveon.org instead!!" What do you think Moveon does with money when they're not coming up with treasonous ads? They give it to Dems...duh. Not a one of you should be leading this country. Heaven help us.

Official A wrote on September 20, 2007 8:33 PM:

"the Democrats are basically cornered by the MoveOn clowns"

Poor, poor Democrats. Not enough votes to do anything about anything, and now cornered by mean old MoveOn? Nothing is ever their fault. Poor, helpless souls. Let's send them home for a nice long rest!

TUSK wrote on September 20, 2007 8:37 PM:

Question asked to Ed Asner in Hollywood..

Mr. Asner, Are you a Communist?

Ed Asner, You have to grow up sometime!

This is the shit we are dealing with. Parasitic, Communist infiltration of our media, our schools, our courts, our government. Soro's had better be well aware that he is being watched and when the hammer hits the anvil, this bastard will pay the price.

Maddie In Florida wrote on September 20, 2007 8:51 PM:

I cannot believe this day. I am ashamed, angry, and very tired. I, too, have had enough. Really.

Why did this ad nonsense even come up for a vote?

You know, this country is self destructing and the Democrats vote for Cornyns resolution. What....$1 - $2M of taxpayer money spent on the bs? Harry Reid....why the hell did you allow this to happen?

I don't think the ad is great nor do I think it is bad. But it is a damn ad about a man who is in the military being a politician. Doesn't that make anyone angry?

I have not considered myself a far left person but I can't stand it anymore.
Someone in the Democratic party has to lead. Until they do, I am going to join the Republicans and hasten the destruction. At least we will hit bottom and have no where to go but up or out.

First, I am going to donate to MoveOn to protest Reid and the Senate Democrats who are pathetic.

fuzz wrote on September 20, 2007 8:59 PM:

When that four-star general is twisting facts and figures so he can keep troops in harm's way he doesn't deserve respect.

American wrote on September 20, 2007 9:03 PM:

Got what you deserved you bunch of cowardly little egomaniacs. You think you are responsible for the Dems getting where they have? HAHA you're just a joke to them and everyone else. Fuck off you losers - move to Venezuela.

TUSK wrote on September 20, 2007 9:07 PM:

"I don't think the ad is great nor do I think it is bad".

And there lies within why the Democrats will lose the next election. Because, you don't know or are undicided. The ad was BAD! Get it! BAD!

It did nothing but hurt the Dems and you know why? Because you don't have the guts to end the war by stopping funds. It makes you look like a party of hand-wringing, troop hating fools. A well deserved moniker.

American wrote on September 20, 2007 9:12 PM:

MoveOn takes it up the ass, do-dah, do-dah..

Hey fuzz you stupid little fucktard, what makes a piece of know-nothing shit like you think you're the big expert on military strategy, and that you know better than one of the world's top military generals? AND you don't even have an information to base your cock-sucking opinion on, you dumbass redneck inbred shithead. You don't deserve to live you yellow-bellied assfucker. STFU and keep your stupid baseless comments to yourself, you worthless piece of crap.

MarkJ wrote on September 20, 2007 9:19 PM:

As a Thirty-third Degree Wingnut (Scottish Rite) and Midwest branch manager of the Vast Rightwing Conspiracy, Inc., here's my subtle and sophisticated assessment of today's vote:

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha....wait, wait, let me catch my breath....bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

Dems, you took the Devil's money and got in bed with Him. So why are you now surprised He's demanding "some anal action"?

As for Hillary in particular, her cynical and politically idiotic vote today is going to come back to bite her on her ample, oh!-so-stylishly covered posterior. Let's see: she votes to appoint General Petraeus to his post in January, and then insults him on national TV and on the floor of the Senate in September, especially after his new strategy is beginning to produce results.

Oh, that's brilliant.

Hillary's little payback to MoveOn today reminds me of Nicky Santoro's comment in "Casino":

"It's the dollars. Always the f***ing dollars."

TUSK wrote on September 20, 2007 9:30 PM:

"When that four-star general is twisting facts and figures so he can keep troops in harm's way he doesn't deserve respect"

Mebbe you should head back to the DU and push this unfound, made up tripe on your America hating cohorts.

The object of a General, is to KEEP his troops FROM harms way and to win a battle with the fewest causalities possible moroon.

This is the problem with most of you military haters. You don't have a fk'n clue.

TUSK wrote on September 20, 2007 9:43 PM:

"Let's see: she votes to appoint General Petraeus to his post in January, and then insults him on national TV and on the floor of the Senate in September, especially after his new strategy is beginning to produce results"

Exactly!.

This is nothing new with the DefeatOcrats. The only sad thing is most Americans are to stupid or lazy to know the facts to the build up to the war and blame it solely on the great Satan Bush!

They forget there complicity and saber rattling in the 90's.

dv wrote on September 20, 2007 10:17 PM:

In response to TUSK and American. If you love the Military and this war so much, why are you wasting your vitriol on these web sites instead of fighting in Iraq and sacrificing for the cause you so ardently believe in.

TUSK wrote on September 20, 2007 10:42 PM:

How do you know I'm NOT in the military?

And how do you know I'm not reading this thread from Iraq or Afghanistan?

It's a small world baby and getting smaller everyday.

TUSK wrote on September 20, 2007 10:57 PM:

NJ Lawyer

You have 2 things working against you..

1st, you are a lawyer

2nd, You are from NJ, the most corrupt Democratically controlled state in the union.

Lawyer/NJ= corruption

Bob Loblaw wrote on September 20, 2007 11:35 PM:

"How do you know I'm NOT in the military?"

Because most people in the military are smarter than you and your wingnut keyboard kommandoes, that's how. Besides, I'm sure they have better things to do than try to play King of the Hill on a blog thread, by simply spouting bullshit and crocodile tears about being hurt and offended by a newspaper ad.

couchgnome wrote on September 20, 2007 11:45 PM:

wwz wrote on September 20, 2007 1:27 PM:
Swiftboated by the Senate. I'm speechless.

Well then stop Kerrying our troops.

Daniel DiRito wrote on September 20, 2007 11:48 PM:

See a pithy tongue-in-cheek visual on the resolution titled, "Jackass: The Sequel - Twenty Two Donkeys For Brother Bush"...here:

http://www.thoughttheater.com/2007/09/jackass_the_sequel_twenty_two_donkeys_for_w.php

ComeOn wrote on September 20, 2007 11:49 PM:

It's very simple.

1. Support the democrats and get enough of a majority to REALLY get things done.

2. Support organizations like MoveOn.org that will help to get us there, even though they sometimes make stupid mistakes.

3. Ignore idiots like TUSK.

This was a stupid little incident that has been way overblown.
And, sure, the dems let this get to the floor, but remember that the GOP threw it up in the first place. Please continue to erode these dangerous and inhumane conservatives by keeping your eye on the ball.

-tm

Robert Roth wrote on September 20, 2007 11:51 PM:

I am especially disappointed in Feinstein, Leahy, Milukski, and Webb, and won't forget their votes.

Check out the CounterPunch website (just google CounterPunch), on which you can learn of Petraeus' presidential ambitions, and read the obvious: his participation in the Big Lie, tying Iraq to al Qaida and 9/11, and directing attention to Iran, as part of the Bush/Cheney gang's preparation for another invasion or even Armageddon.

Note, in case we have time in which to notice, that 25 Dem stalwarts oppposed this disgusting attack on us, and the First Amendment. I won't forget them, either, if there's time to remember anything.

Speaker of the outHouse wrote on September 21, 2007 12:10 AM:

Pretty soon you guys will forget all about Iraq.
Notice the THREE Carrier Goups off Iran?

I love hearing apologists squeal how unfair it is that US Forces are successfully targeting and eliminating Al Qaeda in Iraq.
"but it is SO UNFAIR"

Usama is begging for someone..ANYONE to do something in the US or Europe, but it is too late. People have noticed how he demands literal martyrdom while conspicuously hiding himself away with the women.

So squeeeal my little apologists, anti-bushies, druggies, terrorists, dailyKOS,moveon, La Raza, Nation of Islam etc etc etc.

Global Jihad has failed and bush policy towards terrorist Sponsor states is THE reason.

DonnaG wrote on September 21, 2007 1:23 AM:

The ad was a brilliant play on words and will prove its value for a long while to come. It did exactly what it was supposed to do, which is to allow a focus for rallying and expression for a public who have too long felt betrayed by the Bush team, including Patreaus and his less than stellar 'statistics', all just a continuation of the same idiotic spin and obfuscation on the worst foreign policy decisions of this country's history.

Today, we are able to clearly see and register how the Democratic party once again enables the disaster of Iraq to continue while allowing our constitutional rights to take second place to 'political pandering'.

Today, and on this thread, we are reminded again of the ugly blindness of the die-hard 30%ers who, for the moment come out like mental cockroaches scenting and scurrying over a 'hate' meal.

Mark my words, today's vote be seen in hindsight as a good watershed, this sorting of collusive pandering from true love of country and loyalty to our constitution. That the cockroaches are out in force simply reminds us of the need, though it may take years, to thoroughly clean house in our government in a way that only sobering hard-won wisdom can achieve.

Kudos and thanks, Move-On.

Robert Roth wrote on September 21, 2007 2:18 AM:

It's time to try to bring the tone of the conversation back into the realm of fact-based reality. Thanks, DonnaG, for a good beginning. And remember, please, that none of the Dem frontunners will take "any options" off the table with respect to Iran. As for would-be president P., herewith from the Counterpunch website:
September 15-16, 2007
CounterPunch Diary
The General Came to Washington
By ALEXANDER COCKBURN
Blend a war and a presidential campaign and you have a recipe for 200 proof mendacity, as the Petraeus hearings at the start of the week triumphantly proved.
Take the war first. Into the witness chair in the Senate chamber marched General Petraeus, the blaze of ribbons on his chest suggesting actual combat experience somewhat longer than the modest four years his record discloses. He was once shot in he chest, it’s true, but that was in a military exercise in the U.S. when a soldier’s gun went off by accident. Many senior army and navy officers loathe the toadying Petraeus. According to an amusing column by Gareth Porter of IPS, Admiral William Fallon, chief of the Central Command (CENTCOM), “derided Petraeus as a sycophant during their first meeting in Baghdad last March, according to Pentagon sources familiar with reports of the meeting. Fallon told Petraeus that he considered him to be ‘an ass-kissing little chickenshit’ and added, ‘I hate people like that’, the sources say.”
Mechanically, the general read through testimony freshly vetted and re-written by Vice President Cheney, a man well aware that despite the utter absence of any supportive evidence and owing much to his own untiring falsehoods on the matter, 33 percent of all Americans, including 40 percent of Republicans and 27 percent of Democrats, believe Saddam Hussein was personally involved in the 9/11 al-Qaeda attacks.
Hence Petraeus’ testimony had a reference in almost every paragraph to al-Qaeda terror groups in Iraq, even though prudent estimates put total al-Qaeda membership in Iraq at 1,500 at most, thus furnishing some 5 per cent of the Sunni resistance. Nor of course did the General omit frequent references to the malign role of iran.
The General spoke glowingly of his Surge. He marched the senators through graphs and flow charts, whose soaring curves and bars spelled out Order and Progress, just like the Brazilian national flag.
In fact it’s hard to demonstrate there’s ever really been a surge, (as the Pentagon military analyst cloaked under the pseudonym Herman Mindshaftgap concisely demonstrates on this website today). Right now the US is at a highpoint, with 162,000 troops in Iraq. But that’s not far above the 160,000 deployment level at the end of 2005. Moreover, there’s a steady decline in the Coalition of the Willing, which now stands at 11,500, falling at an average of 575 a month. Total Coalition troops in Iraq total 173,500, well below the peak of 183,000 at the end of 2005.
General Petraeus loosed off his volleys of bogus numbers and the senatorial candidates for presidential nomination returned fire in carefully prepared but equally meretricious salvoes. There were five such candidates on display – Clinton, Obama, Biden, Dodd, (all Democrats) and the Republican McCain.
This doesn’t count General Petraeus himself who, according to Patrick Cockburn’s story on Thursday’s CounterPunch site, disclosed his own presidential ambitions to an Iraqi official two years ago, though he apparently confided to the Iraqi that a 2008 run would be premature. He probably hopes he’ll be running against President Clinton in 2012. Candidate Clinton whacked presumptive candidate Petraeus with Coleridge’s definition of “dramatic truth”. To believe his report, she said, would require “the willing suspension of disbelief”, a line which duly made its way onto the front pages and news headlines, as did Candidate Obama’s theatrical question, “At what point do we say, Enough.”
Mrs Clinton’s problem is that she very willingly suspended disbelief in 2002. When it came time to deliver her Senate speech in support of the war, she reiterated some of the most outlandish claims made by Dick Cheney. In this speech she said Saddam Hussein had rebuilt his chemical and biological weapons program; that he had improved his long-range missile capability; that he was reconstituting his nuclear weapons program; and that he was giving aid and comfort to Al Qaeda. The only other Democratic senator to make all four of these claims in his floor speech was Joe Lieberman. But even he didn’t go as far as Senator Clinton. In Lieberman’s speech, there was conditionality about some of the claims. In Senator Clinton’s, there was none, though even the grotesque war hawk, Ken Pollack, advising Senator Clinton prior to her vote, had told her that the allegation about the Al Qaeda connection was “bullshit.”
Later, as the winds of opinion changed, Senator Clinton claimed – and continues to do so to this day – that hers was a vote not for war but for negotiation. In fact, the record shows that only hours after the war authorization vote Senator voted against the Democratic resolution that would have required Bush to seek a diplomatic solution before launching the war.
Barrack Obama, lagging in the polls behind Mrs Clinton rushed to Iowa on Wednesday to savage his prime rival for her war vote. "Despite -- or perhaps because of how much experience they had in Washington, too many politicians feared looking weak and failed to ask hard questions. I opposed this war from the beginning. I opposed the war in 2002, I opposed it in 2003, I opposed it in 2004, I opposed it in 2005," Obama declared, in Clinton, Iowa. All the Democrats flourish urgent schedules for withdrawal. General Petraeus says that 30,000 troops can go home next summer, owing to the Surge’s splendid success.
Realists in military circles reckon the overall situation in Iraq is worsening, from the point of view of the United States; that by next spring, as one puts it, “the active-duty Army and Marine Corps will start to break under the current load”. Forces will decline, unless Bush orders a real surge next year in involuntarily mobilized reservists. He won’t do that. The war is lost, but like many a lost war, it will last a very long time. Acting President Bush made that clear in his address to the nation (small portions thereof). Candidate Petraeus may well have the chance in 2012 to tax President Clinton about the “stalemate in Iraq”.
I doubt if anyone involved in the Iraq disaster will be well received by the voters, even years down the road.

pinko' commie killer wrote on September 21, 2007 5:40 AM:

All you red bone libs need to get a clue,how am I supposed to trust you with my country when you cant even hold your own on a liberal biased blog from the comfort of your own shanty's.If You've read the above mentioned comments you should realize that most of your fellow "sympathizers" are laughing at you.And the worst part about that is "The Evil Dark Lord Cheney" is right there with them.To bad it's not a Harry Potter book that you could just close and have it all go away.The point is...You are making yourselves look STUPID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Nobody can change that but you.The sad part is your so fucked in the heads about being the enlightened,free thinkers that your NOT,that you will never admit that you are wrong.You will just keep beating this dead horse into the grave,and then bury yourselves with your own shovel.Have some integrity and character and try using your money for another cause,something worthwhile.Obviously you can see where it got you.23 votes,however much $'s it took to buy them,compared to the 65k spent on the ad that started all this?!?!Donate your funds to childrens hospitals or something like that.You get a hell of alot more for your dollar,and a brighter future than your party or congress for that matter..

Ruth R. wrote on September 21, 2007 7:53 AM:

What everyone in these blogs fails to realize is that some group (bankers? industrialists?) is pulling the strings behind both Democratic and Republican parties, and there really isn't any distinction between the two. That's why when real important votes come up, the ugly force behind it all always gets its way. That's why Kerry didn't say boo when that college student in Florida was being tasered by the police. The whole ball of wax is a big sham--some form of a political football game set up to make us think we live in a democracy, when we really have a one-party government.

Big M wrote on September 21, 2007 8:51 AM:

Anybody that gives a rat's ass about anything these treasonous scum say or do deserves to be pinned to the ground and sterilized with a soldering iron.

And rope dealers in DC should be out of stock.

Clint wrote on September 21, 2007 10:50 AM:

The Reps let down their base, and the Dems do the same. Congress' approval rating is nearly in single digits, and Bush's isn't much better.

So what do we do?

WE SAY: NO MORE OF THE SAME-OLD SAME-OLD!

How do we do that?

We cut off THEIR funding! We should all stand together for a HUGE De-Federalization of government, demanding our tax money be returned to us, and let us choose our own policies at the state level.

Red States can act red, Blue states can act blue, and everyone is MUCH happier.

Plus without all of our money to squander on their earmarks, we might actually begin to get some value in government.

Right-and left-wingers alike can find much common ground in this approach, since San Francisco can act like San Francisco, and Nashville can act like Nashville. And we can leave each other ALONE!

RobbyLove wrote on September 21, 2007 11:20 AM:

Unpopular speech, especially unpopular political speech, is protected by an apparently little-known thing called the Constitution of the United States of America.

Our elected officials just voted to condemn something that is part of the very fabric of our republic's founding.

Hang your heads in shame, America. You voted people into office who spit on your freedoms.

Anonymous wrote on September 21, 2007 11:43 AM:

Thank goodness MoveOn exists (I joined and made a contribution yesterday) to serve as a bellwether to inform today's Democratic political leaders what rank and file Democrats expect from them, and to kick them in the behind when they act too much like political prostitutes and cowards without the conscience and courage to fight the good fight and stand up to the oppressive and hypocritcal political tactics of opportunistic and exploitive Bush Republicans. Frankly, I'm tired of kiss-ass defensive acting Democrats who are afraid of being called "liberal" and who can be manipulated by conniving Republicans rather than taking the fight to them and fighting fire with fire. With all the ammunition Republicans have provided Democratic leaders, it is hard to understand why they aren't hitting them where they hurt rather than playing polite and timorous politics. The rank and file Democrats want our leaders to act like confident and principled Democrats, not like mealymouthed sissies trying to "appear" politically correct!

I'm from Chicago. Chicago Democrats are tough and unashamed of being Democrats. I voted for McGovern, Carter, Mondale, Dukakis, Clinton, Gore and Kerry. I want to vote in 2008 for a Democrat who is proud of be one and who will stand up and fight for what's "right" no matter what the political consequences. I don't give a damn about political correctness. I believe that being a true Democrat is resolutely "being" and "fighting" for what you believe in, not fearfully vacillating with the winds of political expediency to the point where there's little or no difference between "being" a Democrat or a Republican.

We Democrats are in the majority. We Democrats have the power to make our government responsive to the better angels of our people. All we need to do is have the character to assertively take control away from the greedy and immoral political whores we foolishly allowed to steel it! IT'S TIME TO STAND UP AND BE A PROUD AND RIGHTEOUSLY INDIGNANT AND CONVINCING DEMOCRAT!

Mr. Patriot wrote on September 21, 2007 11:50 AM:

Supporting the President is supporting the troops! Supporting the General who is carrying his water is supporting the troops even if that General is a liar. I SUPPORT THE TROOPS! I support doing as the General says and leave them there for at least 10 more years. They even use Germany as a model where we have left troops for 62 years.I still support those troops. Support the troops by cutting veterans benefits because once they have their arm blown off their no longer troops, right? Support the troops by making the same ones go back over and over again because to reinstate a draft would undermine the war effort. After all rich repubs don't want their special kids to get hurt. If their kids had to go they would want to stop this! We dont want the Bush twins driving a gasolinje truck in bagdad do we? Support the troops by not letting them stay home as long as they were overseas. I'm a good Patriotic American
. Don't cut the funding. Support the troops. Gung Ho! Simper Fi!

oldtree wrote on September 21, 2007 11:56 AM:

sad day when both sides unite to eliminate free speech. America is gone friends. protect yourselves

Jackie B wrote on September 21, 2007 12:01 PM:

We should play nice why? So that we can have an even bigger majority of these spineless pushovers "representing" us in Congress, making Democrats and those who support them look even more ridiculous and inept? I'm not at all interested in tempering my rage to preserve that breed of "representation." Bring it on, Moveon.org, and when you start recruiting real political scrappers to challenge these craven incompetents, I'll be making even bigger donations than I'm making now!

Scotsw wrote on September 21, 2007 12:09 PM:

Another victory for the liberal ideal of free speech!

Go Dems!

At least I don't see the Michigan Dems (Levin, Stabenow) on that list.

LiberalsAreIdiots wrote on September 21, 2007 1:58 PM:

Ok this is the first time in my life I think I have ever agreed with anything an idiot liberal said...although come to think of it, he never really identified which side he was on, and what he said made way too much sense to have actually have been said by a liberal...

Clint wrote on September 21, 2007 10:50 AM:
The Reps let down their base, and the Dems do the same. Congress' approval rating is nearly in single digits, and Bush's isn't much better.

So what do we do?

WE SAY: NO MORE OF THE SAME-OLD SAME-OLD!

How do we do that?

We cut off THEIR funding! We should all stand together for a HUGE De-Federalization of government, demanding our tax money be returned to us, and let us choose our own policies at the state level.

Red States can act red, Blue states can act blue, and everyone is MUCH happier.

Plus without all of our money to squander on their earmarks, we might actually begin to get some value in government.

Right-and left-wingers alike can find much common ground in this approach, since San Francisco can act like San Francisco, and Nashville can act like Nashville. And we can leave each other ALONE!

LiberalsAreIdiots wrote on September 21, 2007 2:19 PM:

I love the fact that the more you idiots talk, or "blog" the more you show how stupid you are. Please tell me if you can put enough brain cells together collectively amongst yourselves to do so, how the Senate vote constitutes eliminating free speech? No Democratic sponsored bills like the "Employee Free Choice Act" (which of course, is anything but), the Matthew Shepherd Hate Crimes bill (which criminalizes thought), and the again misnamed "Fairness Doctrine" are assaults on Free Speech, and the 1st Amendment. What the Senate did was simply exercise that right, they participated in free speech by voting to criticize the MoveOn ad, which is no different than what the ad did in the 1st place, which was to criticize the General. No one was arrested because of the ad, the Secret Service didn't lead Saint Eli away in shackles, or shut down MoveOn.org, that would be an assault on free speech...but then why would I expect you idiots to know the difference?

oldtree wrote on September 21, 2007 11:56 AM:
sad day when both sides unite to eliminate free speech. America is gone friends. protect yourselves

RobbyLove wrote on September 21, 2007 11:20 AM:
Unpopular speech, especially unpopular political speech, is protected by an apparently little-known thing called the Constitution of the United States of America.

Our elected officials just voted to condemn something that is part of the very fabric of our republic's founding.

Hang your heads in shame, America. You voted people into office who spit on your freedoms.

Calvin Bond wrote on September 21, 2007 3:48 PM:

The citizens of this country need to do an exact copy of the march on Jena, La, to Wash. DC to demand our DEMOCRACY back!!

TUSK wrote on September 21, 2007 6:24 PM:

"The citizens of this country need to do an exact copy of the march on Jena, La, to Wash. DC to demand our DEMOCRACY back!!"

Heh, everyone seems to forget the WHITE kid who was almost beaten to death by 4 BLACK racist thugs. Don't let facts get in the way of your bleeding heart Calvin. An injustice was done in Jena and it was against an innocent white teenager.

marcus wrote on September 21, 2007 9:50 PM:

Yeah well, speaking of the Jena 6, where were the parents and the education system that could have prevented those passions from manifesting themselves into a near killing. Would this have happened in this day and age if the parents of these kids had not a single racist bone in their collective bodies passed down from their crazy cousins?
Whatever happens to these young men, adult prison would be the worse thing we could do to them and ourselves even though that idiot white kid probably deserved getting his smart-assed ass kicked and let that be a lesson to the rest of you noose makers.

stephen waite wrote on September 22, 2007 9:00 AM:

I am on Move On's mailing list - this is the first time I have sent them money and I will continue to do s0. This Senate and the democrats can go to hell. (the republicans are already there.)

Ray wrote on September 22, 2007 4:49 PM:

Anon wrote: "I'm from Chicago. Chicago Democrats are tough...."

Let me finish this sentence for you.

"CROOKED, VOTE STEALING, MOB AFILIATED UNIONS, THUGS AND BASTARDS. WE VOTE THE DEAD AND WE'RE PROUD OF IT!"

You're welcome.

And in your list of Democrats you voted for, don't forget you voted for traitors, sexual predators, fools, liars, crime supporters, seditionists, and the motherfucker who singlehandedly damn near destroyed our economy with double-digit inflation, while given the Iranians the reason to go to war with us.

So, don't let your pride swell your head too much.

Ray wrote on September 22, 2007 4:55 PM:

Calvin approves of the "march on jena."

Oh, brother.

6 young men, as a gang, beat the snot out of one. One of these "yutes" has a rap sheet showing 4 juvinile felonies and is held without bail, and YOU STUPID FUCKS THINK THIS IS A CIVIL RIGHTS ISSUE?

Calvin again: "to Wash. DC to demand our DEMOCRACY back!!"

Go ahead, it's a free country. But, let me be the FIRST to tell you, ignorant one, that this country is a REPUBLIC, not a Democracy.

HTH, Have a nice conservative day!

Anonymous wrote on September 22, 2007 5:04 PM:

Stephen writes:

"I am on Move On's mailing list - this is the first time I have sent them money and I will continue to do s0. This Senate and the democrats can go to hell. (the republicans are already there.)"

Hmm.

Would you think ill of me if I said that you're a nascent brownshirt fascist?

Ask yourself two questions:

1. What happens if the Republicans win back Congress and keep the Presidency? And if the Republicans do win in 2008, WHAT ARE YOU NUTJOBS AT MOVEON GOING TO DO? Will you throw a hissyfit and riot?

2. What happens after January 20, 2009, when Bush leaves office (and he will finish his term no matter how much you whine about it). Who are you people going to hate then?

Hate is a powerful emotion and Eli, et. al., is using it to concentrate and focus on Bush and the war in Iraq. With Bush gone, DO YOU REALLY THINK WE ARE GOING TO BELIEVE THAT YOU NUTJOBS AT MOVEON ARE GOING TO STAND DOWN and life go back to normal?

Hatred is POWER. YOUR side uses it with abandon. We all know instinctively that hate-driven power is a narcotic. So, whom are you nutjobs going to hate next?

You going to do what your ilk has always done and hunt down your opponents and kill them? That's EXACTLY what the Bolsheviks did. That what the Nazis did. That's what Castro did.

I guess, we'll just have to disagree and perhaps we'll see each other on the barricades....

Ray wrote on September 22, 2007 5:08 PM:

onceler:

"we need to overthrow the government."

Mmm.

How so TYPICAL leftist. Thanks for proving so succinctly that moveon and the left are TRAITORS and SEDITIONISTS.

john ryan wrote on September 22, 2007 8:51 PM:

Open letter to Democrat Cowards:
Your recent vote condemning MoveOn.Org for unmasking the blatant politicalizing of statistics by the White House and David Petraus in Iraq was beyond the pale. Congress actually has lower approval ratings than George Bush because Democrats have acted in a cowardly and weak way every step of the way on Iraq. End funding for the war now. Stop acting like the Democrats are in the minority. I gave money to Democratic Senate candidates all over the country a year ago. I consider it money poorly spent based on the utter failure of Democrats like you from doing the right thing. Perhaps if you are going to continue behaving the way George Bush wants you to you should join the Joe Leiberman party. Stand up and do something courageous or retire.

Ray wrote on September 22, 2007 9:01 PM:

Open letter to "john ryan":

Eat shit and die. If you don't like it, move to another country where traitors like you are welcome. How about North Korea?

Ray wrote on September 22, 2007 9:04 PM:

Just one queston to all you moveon clowns whining about the Democrats who, apparently, have had enough of retards like you.

When are you going to start spitting on the troops and calling them babykillers?

When are you going to start calling the families of the KIA and harrassing them?

When are you going to join Rev. Phelps and trying to disrupt military funerals?

Oops. Sorry, that was 3 questions.

Ray wrote on September 22, 2007 9:07 PM:

Attn all Moveon.org members.

Don't forget, your Al Qaeda membership fees are due on October 1.

Thank you in advance,

Osama bin Laden,
Caliph-in-abstentia

PS - Death to America.

Ray wrote on September 23, 2007 6:17 AM:

To the 22 Democrats that rebuked the liars and libelers at moveon.

Bravo.

Well done.

Your courage will enable moderate Democrats to regain the party of JFK, FDR, Truman, and Woodrow Wilson from the braying jackasses and Al Qaeda Supporters from Moveon.org.

Do not despair at the pissants posting here. Ignore them. They are evil.

zippythepinhead wrote on September 23, 2007 2:13 PM:

fuck you Ray and the camel you rode in on

Athena wrote on September 24, 2007 1:28 AM:

The Moveon Ad was a shameful attack on a fine military leader. They did not even wait to read his report. It is Moveon that "betrays us," supporting the tyranny of Saddam Hussein and his supporters.

ex moveon member wrote on September 30, 2007 11:23 PM:

I will never send moveone another dime after that add. My friends and I have contributed at least 1000$ over the last 2 election cycles directly to moveon. Never again. Nor I will I support any member of Congess who would not condemn this add.

Anita wrote on October 15, 2007 1:31 PM:

I am not calling for the removal of troops from Iraq, though I was against going there to start with; because I agreed with Colin Powell that once we broke it, we bought it. When asked, I did not send money to the proposed add for this reason. On the other hand, I deeply resent the Senate vote and those of you who are saying that members of Move On who spent their own hard earned cash to exercise their right to free speech are traitors or less patriotic than you who disagree with them. The Bush administration is full of inept liars, and Petraeus is not to be trusted as long as he works for them, since he has plenty of fired generals who told the truth about how misguided Bush and his planners were to show him what would happen if he said anything other than what Bush wants said.

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Well_Seasoned wrote on November 1, 2007 1:20 PM:

[quote]"Perhaps if you are going to continue behaving the way George Bush wants you to you should join the Joe Leiberman party. Stand up and do something courageous or retire."[/quote]

Sounds like a plan to me. Time to get distant and separate from the moron.org wing of the Democratic Party.

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