I live in Florida. The problem as I see it is that the repub legislature picked the date of the Fl. primary. So...the dems either don't vote at all, or we lose our delegates. So..where is the fairness in that? Looks like we're screwed...yet again.

The Florida legislative Democrats voted with the Republicans for the primary date.

I was just reading up on this a little. Looks like the bill originally authorizing the move (to February 5 or one week after the NH primary, whichever is earlier) passed in the FL House by a vote of 115-1, with only one democrat voting against it (and bully for him or her).

I haven't found a tally for the state senate version of the bill but I did read that it was sponsored by a Democratic senator. It appears to have been part of a deal cut between their house and senate over approval of funding to replace touch-screen voting machines in parts of the state. I guess there's good and bad in everything. But this all happened back in March or April and the FL Democratic party has basically been thumbing their nose at the DNC's repeated warnings ever since.

I also note that the Democrats among FL's congressional delegation in DC weren't doing much of any arm twisting to try and change anyone's mind back home, or at least none that I heard about. Bill Nelson I recall was a pretty vocal supporter of the move in fact. So it does seem a bit of a reach for them to play the victim and try to blame this all on the mean old Republicans.

Isn't it interesting how a few 'representitives' can destroy millions of people's votes? I heard somewhere that Fl is the third largest state in this 'union'. As per electoral votes. What a joke. We counted for nothing in 2000. We counted for nothing in 2004. We still count for nothing. Just who,...who needs to 'learn from being quarantined how dishonorable it really is to break agreements'??? The 93 thousand who were thrown off the rolls in 2000. The 18 thousand who were not counted on the touchscreen machines in 2004. Yeah..we need to learn our lessons. How about the thousands who have served their time in prison..and still cannot vote? hou about the thousands who were "caged". Another lesson? I have lived in Pensacola for 22 years. I can sincerely say that I hate it here. I am sick to death of the right-winged crap. I know that my vote..whatever it may be...never counts. Period.

The vote on moving the primary was 114 to 1. Only one Democrat, Jack Seiler voted against it. The DNC Rules Committee had the following information which was sent out in an email.

Short version...they laughed their own Feb. 5 amendment off the floor, saying they just wanted to be able to show the DNC something.

"1. Florida Democratic Legislators sponsored the bill to move the primary to January 29th;

2. Florida House Democratic Legislators voted in committee three times for the bill to move the primary to January 29;

3. All but one Florida House Democratic Legislator vote on the floor to move the primary to January 29; and,

4. Florida House Democratic Leader Dan Gelber stated, after receiving a call from DNC Chair asking for help in opposing setting the primary date before February 5, “I don’t represent Howard Dean.”

5. Florida House Democratic Leader Dan Gelber stated, after offering an amendment to move the primary to February 5th, that the only reason he offer it was “to show that there was an attempt to state within the Democratic Party rules.” The amendment failed on a voice vote with no debate being offered.

6. Florida Senate Democratic Legislators voted in committee to move the primary to January;

7. Florida Senate Democratic Leader Steve Geller stated on the Senate floor that he was offering an amendment to move the primary to February 5 only because he was threatened by DNC Chair Howard Dean. Sen. Geller than mocked his own amendment which failed on a voice vote without any debate."

From the St. Pete Times...the Rules committee was well aware of all that went on.

http://blogs.tampabay.com/buzz/2007/08/kiss-democratic.html

"The DNC members had handouts that included quotes by House Minority leader Dan Gelber brushing off Howard Dean, and the following transcript of Steve Geller making the motion to move the primary to Feb. 5:

Geller: "...So the Democratic leader and the Democratic leader pro tem are jointly making this motion, which we will duly show them later, that we tried not to have the election on, um, before (Feb. 5).

President: "And so Sen. Geller are you urging a negative vote or would you like us to pass this vote?"

Geller: "Oh no sir. We really, really want this. Don't we senator? (sarcasm and audible laughter in chamber)."

"

Please excuse my ignorance, but why does it matter to the DNC which state has a primary first? And why are New Hampshire and Ohio, now Nevada and South Carolina favored above other states. It seems to me that Kerry was able to pull off a victory in New Hampshire and was consequently annointed by the press as the next Democratic nominee and so he was. Is there a good reason all the primaries couldn't be held on the same day?

I B Joshin, that's what I've been wondering since all this leap-frogging nonsense first started. Why NOT have all the primaries on the same day?

And preferably a weekend, and not a Tuesday so more people have the option of voting?

"Is there a good reason all the primaries couldn't be held on the same day?"

Yeah. Because Florida and Michigan would move theirs up to the day BEFORE the day.

Greg is right when he says, "But there is something perverse in having one party control the machinery of primary elections that affect the other party."

In Michigan, this statement does not apply. In Florida, the Democrats were more than complicit in the dirty deed, even introducing the date-changing bill which threw a wrench into what had been decided earlier.

If that earlier decision had been done without the participation of Florida and Michigan, that would be a different situation. But these two rogue wrench-throwing states did agree to the earlier decision, so their subsequent behavior is dishonorable.

Imagine a tour bus with 50 passengers who had beforehand collectively agreed upon the itinerary so that all knew when the bus would stop in different locations. All passengers makes their plans according to that itinerary. But, once that bus was underway, a couple of brats on board throw a fit, insisting upon a change in the itinerary. Those unruly ones are affecting everyone else, and should suffer consequences.

The time to redesign a primary season or a bus tour is not 'in the middle of it', and certainly not in response to interruptions by those who renege on their earlier agreements. That is not to say that revisions cannot or should not be taken up in the future.

Hold unassembled caucuses throughout the state. Vote on Sat, 2/2; Sun, 2/3; Mon, 2/4; and Tue, 2/5. (Maybe even have 2nd chance voting.) Have a Sat box, a Sun box, a Mon box, a Tue up to 5 pm box and a Tue 5 pm till closing hour box. Paper ballots. Start counting the first four boxes at noon Tuesday. That way the last box will have only a few votes to count, so that the Florida result could be announced quickly. (And hope that Michigan does the same.)

If I still lived in Florida I would be livid at the way Crist screwed Florida Dems. Sue the state for the cost, everybody send him a bill for the extra cost and generally harrass him.

Charlie

"Can someone explain why this is not the most logical solution? I really cannot imagine how anyone can think the present system benefits the Democratic Party."

Money. Lots of it. The price of admission would end up being $20-30 million per candidate, just to get into the race. No one would be able to compete who could not afford to run a full-blown national campaign on day one -- airplanes, marketing, advance teams, paid staffers in every state, the works. We would have to just drop all pretense and let candidates start selling corporate naming rights for their campaigns.

Also, no small state would ever see a presidential candidate again (and no candidate would ever see them). People would tend to throw everything they have at CA, TX, NY, FL, IL PA and OH. Everybody else, please leave a message after the beep.

The actual elections are run by the state, not the parties. I would assume most everyone running has already filed their paperwork with the state since the filing deadlines are usually a few months before the election, so chances are their names will still appear on the ballot. The DNC ruling just means no convention delegates from FL will be awarded to any candidate based upon the election results. So basically, whatever the results of the election are it won't count for anything in terms of nominating the candidate to run for president, which happens formally at the national party convention.

But I believe the candidates are also going to be forbidden to campaign down there -- not that it would gain them much if there are no delegates to win -- unless Florida Democrats decide to have a later caucus on their own, which they theoretically could still do. I have no idea what that means though or how you define campaigning.

featherfamily, I really enjoyed your comment for the perspective you offer and develop.

The sentence which jumped out at me from your comment was:
"Even that, primaries six or seven months before the general, is simply too far away for the majority of our TV-addled brothers and sisters to really wrap their minds around the idea of cause and effect, action and consequence."

As I see it, the Madison Avenue advertising industry certainly benefits from a long primary and general season. The media advertisers target 'TV-addled' brothers and sisters who already been hooked into the ongoing dramas of daytime and evening soap operas.

How fortunate for the profit-minded media advertisers that we have these long soap dramas called election seasons, complete with daily developing scandal tidbits and 'dramatic' tit-for-tat repartee between the role-players, plus unending material for the pundit personalities.

Of course, these election soaps are not designed to spark thinking about cause and effect or about action and consequence. I would posit that, on the contrary, the election season 'soaps' operate quite effectively to dilute and reduce sharpened public awareness of actionable issues.

Obfuscation remains the strongest tool for the status quo powerful, the latest example being the intentionally created thick fog blotting out all but the outline of real facts about the 'surge'.

It's hard to blame individual States, especially big ones, for attempting to allow their citizens some actual say in the nominating process. Iowa and New Hampshire have a disproportionate effect, because their primaries are held so early. Adding Nevada and South Carolina to the "lucky few," doesn't do much as neither of these states has a large city.

It would be a good idea for the Democratic party to allow the citizens of Illinois, California, New York, Pennsylvania, Florida, Ohio and Michigan some actual input in choosing the eventual nominee.

It would also be a good idea if the DNC restored sufficient order that the entire process isn't so front-loaded that only those candidates who've raised enough money to compete in the major TV markets before Iowa and New Hampshire have a chance.

If both Obama and Edwards actually mount a serious challenge to Clinton the nomination may be brokered at the time of the convention, allowing the delegates the final say. We don't really want that. We want a rational primary system in which the voters decide.

Ironically and with schadenfruede, the Republicans are even more likely to enter their convention without a nominee. They've got four or five candidates Guiliani, Thompson, Romney, McCain and possibly Huckabee with enough regional and special interest group appeal to actually carry a few states -- each.

Florida and Michigan were foolish, yes. But they acted from understandable motives. It's up to the parties to construct a system that is as fair to urban, big-state voters as it is to citizens in states where it's cheap to run; and as fair to candidates as to voters.

Rots O'Ruck with that.

Everything is ok if you have the right motives?

The comments here show that even though Florida legislators deliberately and knowingly broke the party rules and then did not tell the truth about it, that most here think it is ok

since their motives were sincere.

Wow.