Both Hillary and Obama need to stop beating a dead horse; this issue of the Bush people being evil and Obama's expressions of being ready to lead.

We know the truth, that Bush and Co. are not the perfect people and Obama is not ready to lead.

Do you know what will happen if we INVADE PAKISTAN without the Pak military, the country will go in chaos as they hate us aldready and the Pak. people cannot wait to dump Musharraf. Later, they will install a Taliban government and they have nukes,go figure!

come on, this is crucial context. and the hillary people read the piece and just told us they have no problem with it

I'm glad to see written responses out of Mrs. Clinton. She's a smart lady, and crap like this has to be parsed in the careful way you can only manage in print.

Not that she won't be misrepresented by frakking everyone, but it's a reminder that in her capacity as Senator she's already involved in all this crap.

Personally I'm sick of Rogue Presidencies and want to see whoever gets in the WH next work really closely with Congress -- by which I do not mean "rubberstamp"; I mean "democracy".

I don't know if she can be that person, but her letter gave me hope that she might be.

E

Any of the democratic candidates that make Dick Cheney look as evil as he is, is okay by me.

In 2005, America had "actionable intelligence" on a meeting of terrorist leaders. Paki's leader, our ally, said "no" and we honored that request. With the "recent travel of Pakistan" on the terrorist plots in Briain and with the resurgence of the Taliban in Afghanistan, this ungoverned tribal area is becoming a haven for terrorists who mean to do America harm.

And drop the "invade Pakistan" nonsense. A strike--whether by air or ground special forces--against a target of terrorists is not an invasion. Don't be so naive.

I agree Hillary and all but a handful of her colleagues in Congress at the time abdicated their responsibility when it really mattered. The Constitution, quaint though it may be, gives Congress the authority (and the responsibility) for declaring war, raising armies, and funding the military. They have yet to exercise those responsibilities responsibly.

On the other hand, while taking responsibility for this quagmire is indeed far too late, this entire presidential reality show has come far too early. It's distracting from matters of real import, like the deliberate dismantling of our system of government by a bunch of thugs. Nothing Obama and Clinton say to each other is helping right this sinking ship or even patch the holes. They (and many more) have work to do now in their roles as Congresspeople.

Fussing over what they'll do two years from now doesn't really matter if the government they seek to serve doesn't make it that far.

then i can surely draw conclusions about bias based on certain trends i see in the editorializing.

you don't really need to be told that clinton can benefit politically from a confrontation with cheney, do you?

WOW! Everyone on this thread is so uptight! That's what you get when you talk about Clinton. She puts everyone on edge. Do we really have to have her as the Dem nominee?

you don't really need to be told that clinton can benefit politically from a confrontation with cheney, do you?

No. It's part of the half-Vast Rightwing Conspiracy to get a Republican Lite the Democratic nomination.

That way the Republicans win either way.

:-)

Best, Terry

i can hear.....

the helicopters.

It's not just this thread and it's not just Hillary. Check out the Obama threads below. We're starting to see the TPMers coalesce around various favorites and now that Hillary and Obama are fighting, we're at each other's throats.

You've got users going around troll rating any comment that defends Hillary or is critical of Obama. And people are parsing each other's posts way too literally. The Hillary supporters have been literally twisting Obama's words (and the words of his supporters) in obvious ways.

And it's still early in the season.

thosethingswesay.blogspot.com

i can hear.....

the helicopters.

I am not surprised you can hear them as well as Hillary.

Most of the rest of us are hard-of-hearing.

Best, Terry

Of course he does. But in Cheney's perverted mind, he may be thinking she is the best one to run against. He is a devious person and he lobbed a softball to her on this one.

It's not just this thread and it's not just Hillary.

Nail, meet hammer. Check out the number of posts on any thread that mentions Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama. Wheee!

The number of posts is similar to what happens when Joe Klein says something about leftwing bloggers at Swampland.

I love the passion. Don't like the flame comments, though.

There's nothing wrong with Greg's analysis of the political calculations going on here. Personally, I appreciated the context.

At first, Hillary's letter struck me more as a means to shift the subject away from the Obama exchange. While at the same time, her readiness to hit back quickly helps to make her look strong. She also bolsters her credentials with the base by taking on their prime nemesis, Darth Cheney.

But clearly there is a connection to the back and forth with Obama. His most damning blow was connecting her to Bush/Cheney; hers was reinforcing the 'inexperienced' meta-narrative surrounding him. Today, they both took action to neutralize those attacks, or at least halt their momentum - her with the letter, him with the speech.

The point Greg is making is not that it IS politically useful to her to do this, but WHY that is so. It's called analysis. What are the candidate's calculations over this particular move and what exactly are the advantages to be had? Those are all somewhat opaque and worth mulling over.

Mischaracterizing the statement as "things that happen in politics are politically useful" is an extreme sort of reductionism. The question is why this is so in this certain case and how it will play out. It's about specifics, and that is precisely what many of us come to sites like this to explore.

Some of us like to watch the tennis match to appreciate the players, not just tune in for the final score. Chiming in that they're both just hitting the ball because they'd like to score a point is sort of boorish. Of course we know that. That's not the point. But what's interesting is their style, their skill, their choices, their strategy, their effectiveness. In other words, the play-by-play.

Thanks, Greg, for the insight. It made me see Clinton's move in a slightly different light. It's a way to neutralize Obama's criticism subtley and indirectly rather than addressing it head on and restoking the flames of what is now a tired and potentially damaging argument for both of them. Show, don't tell.

Independent Action Blog

It is surprising to me that you care what the campaigns say about your postings.

Hillary "demanding that the administration clarify its position as to whether her ongoing request for info about such planning is aiding enemy propaganda" seems like a waste of time. Why pick a public fight with Dick Cheney about Iraq? So you prove he is wrong and a liar and we don't already know that? Hillary would do much better if she focused on real substance and not on grandstanding for headlines.

Show us the evidence that Hillary does not place high importance on political implications in her decision-making.

Where has this principled voice on the Iraq War been for the last five years?

I'm pretty sure the Pentagon already has drawn up some plans for withdrawal and has had them for some time, they just don't care to share them with Congress b/c it wouldn't look good for Bush/Cheney.

While Obama is making headlines with analysis and new thinking about Pakistan and the broader challenges of American foreign policy, Hillary escalates a (futile) war of words with Dick Cheney et al about Iraq. Who gets points today for vision and leadership?

I think he said what he thinks. It's of a piece with his general worldview and many, many previous statements he has made.

He's part of the non-reality based community.

Hopefully, the Decomcrats are the future. Do you really think Hillary writing angry letters and sharing them with the press is going to change Dick Cheney, this administration, or Iraq policy? More courageously, she could work to cut funding for the war, and/or encourage her House colleagues to impeach.

You make a good point. It seemed that he was countering criticism by saying "if its ok with hillary's folks you should accept it."