Election Central | Talking Points Memo | Election Central Dem Debate/Forum Roundup

Election Central Dem Debate/Forum Roundup

By Eric Kleefeld and T. W. Farnam - August 10, 2007, 9:35AM

• Video of yesterday's Democratic Human Rights Campaign/Logo presidential forum is available here.

• The organizers hyped the event as an historic first. But as Andrew Sullivan noted about a month ago, the Human Rights Campaign already held a presidential debate on gay issues in the Summer of 2003, which was broadcast live on C-Span. Thus the Human Rights Campaign has managed the exact same historic "first" for two cycles in a row.

• While Dennis Kucinich and Mike Gravel fully endorsed gay marriage – as the moderators enthused about them – the other candidates dodged questions on the issue. Indeed, "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" was actually an apt description of the frontrunners' positions on gay marriage.

• Barack Obama made an interesting statement about the fight for gay marriage rights, discussing how even though his parents' inter-racial marriage was illegal in many states at the time, he would have been a pragmatist in offering advice to the civil rights movement. "I would have probably said it's less important that we focus on an anti-miscegenation law than we focus on a voting rights law and a non-discrimination and employment law and all the legal rights that are conferred by the state," Obama said.

• On marriage, John Edwards said he was on a "journey," hinting that he might one day support it but he just wasn't there yet. Asked why he once cited his faith as a reason to oppose gay marriage, John Edwards drew applause for recanting the statement. "I shouldn’t have said that ... We have seen a president in the last six-plus years who has tried to impose his faith on the American people. I will not try to impose my faith belief on the American people."

• Hillary Clinton was asked directly what was at the heart of her opposition to gay marriage. "I prefer to think of it as being very positive about civil unions," she said to laughter. She then talked about how much hard work went into simply defeating the anti-gay Federal Marriage Amendment — a hint that her true position on the issue might be obscured by political reality.

• Barack Obama, asked why he was so "decidedly old school" on gay marriage despite billing himself as the candidate of change, responded with "oh, come on." "There's a reason I was here first: I've got a track record working on these issue," he said, referring to his having been the first candidate to accept the invitation to the event. He also discussed how he has denounced homophobia not only before gay crowds, but in his 2004 Democratic convention keynote speech, and even in environments like black churches.

• Asked why she hasn't taken measures to repeal the military's "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy, Hillary Clinton said that this wasn't achievable under the current administration and she was instead focused on "laying the groundwork" for such a change. She then listed the achievements of the policy, which she said ended the "witch hunt" that threatened gay service members with criminal action if they didn't out other gays. "We have moved a long way on this and other issues, but I think it's important to recall how much an advance 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' was at the time," she said, then proceeding to criticize the current implementation of it and saying it was time to get rid of it.

• Melissa Etheridge referred to a passage in Bob Shrum's book that reported John Edwards once said he was "uncomfortable" around gay men, asking Edwards if he was "O.K. right now" in a roomful of gay people. "I’m perfectly comfortable," he said, and later interjected to correct the record, saying "Can I just tell you — that’s not true. Someone else said it, and it’s not true, it’s not true. It came from a political consultant, and he’s just wrong. Elizabeth and I were both there, and we’ve said it’s wrong." Elizabeth Edwards previously said that her husband was uncomfortable when decades ago a gay man once told her the he wanted to "snake" her then-boyfriend John.

• Dennis Kucinich said how he keeps the Human Rights Campaign's logo — an equals sign — in his office. He then made the aesthetic suggestion that they redesign it, putting the equals sign inside a heart shape, "because what we're really talking about here is human love," Kucinich said. "And there's no power on this earth greater than human love."

• John Edwards incorrectly stated that the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy could be repealed by the president alone, despite the fact that it is part of statutory law, passed by Congress and signed by Bill Clinton in 1993. "Well I think the president of the United States can get rid of 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell,'" Edwards said. "I mean, I appreciate the question but..."

• Mike Gravel said that he thought a hypothetical national gay marriage ballot initiative would pass. "I think so," he said. "I think the American people have a really underlying sense of values of fairness."

• Bill Richardson had a difficult moment. When asked if homosexuality is a choice, he stumbled, apparently not understanding the question and saying for a second that it is a choice. He then gave this response: "I'm not a scientist. I don't see this as an issue of science or definition. I see gays and lesbians as human beings ... I don't like to categorize people."

• Courtesy of America Blog, Richardson has now clarified: "I misunderstood the question. Let me be clear — I do not believe that sexual orientation or gender identity happen by choice. But I'm not a scientist, and the point I was trying to make is that no matter how it happens, we are all equal and should be treated that way under the law. That is what I believe, that is what I have spent my career fighting for. I ask that people look at my record and my actions and they will see I have been a true supporter of the LGBT community."

Comments (158)

JoeCHI wrote on August 10, 2007 10:16 AM:

As a gay man who has been in a committed partnership for 17 years, I believe that Ethridge's characterization of being "thrown under the bus" by the Clintons strains incredulity.

The fact remains that Ethridge left her wife and children from the Clinton years, moved on to another wife, and had additional children with her.

It seems to me that Ethridge herself threw her commitment and marriage "under the bus".

hadenough wrote on August 10, 2007 10:17 AM:

I watched that debate last night. The times article linked above is a terrible recap. ben smith at the repub funded politico is just as bad.

It is not one world:

Special Interest Endorsements

In Ohio, 10 percent say the endorsement of a gay rights group would make them more likely to support a candidate while 34 percent say less likely and 54 percent say it would make no difference. In Pennsylvania, 11 percent say it would make them more likely, with 28 percent saying less likely and 59 percent saying it would make no difference. Among Florida voters, 10 percent say more likely, while 28 percent are less likely and 60 percent say it would make no difference.

Conversely, a labor endorsement is the biggest plus, although its support is more useful in Ohio and Pennsylvania than it is in Florida. But a business group endorsement is a negative. The backing of abortion rights groups is also an overall negative in all three states.

The backing of conservative Christian groups is a plus in Ohio, a negative in Florida and a virtual wash in Pennsylvania.

"Being perceived as the candidate of gay rights turns off more voters than it attracts, although in general being considered the candidate of a special interest group seems to be a political loser overall," said Brown.
http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x2882.xml?ReleaseID=1089

During the run up to the 08 election the repubs will do what they do: Spend months and millions of dollars whipping up bigotry, hatred and fear. Those numbers will get worse.

And why can't EC make links clickable?

das2003 wrote on August 10, 2007 10:29 AM:

I've said it before and I've said it again. Richardson isn't ready for prime-time. He may be an experienced diplomat, but he's a terrible candidate. I like the guy, just wish people would get past his resume and realize he's not presidential candidate material.

hadenough wrote on August 10, 2007 10:39 AM:

Glad you said it. Ethridge sounded deeply hurt. I'm sure she is.

She was hard on Hillary. Good.[get your zeros ready kids] Obama was "old school" while Hillary threw Ethridge "under the bus." I thought Hillary layed out a good case. Not what we want to hear but what she thought she could do. Edwards took some hits. Good. Coddling a candidate now does not help them in the general. Example: Edwards got to smack down that quote from schum. Had Edwards been coddled we wouldn't have heard him tell us the truth.

I thought they all did pretty well except Richardson. He seems like a decent guy. Just too sloppy to be the nom.

Bearpaw wrote on August 10, 2007 10:40 AM:

It doesn't strain my incredulity.

And I'm not sure how Ethridge's personal behavior is relevant to the Clintons' political decisions.

Bearpaw wrote on August 10, 2007 10:45 AM:

It's interesting how wanting equal treatment under the law is seen as a goal of a "special interest group", while preferring unequal treatment isn't.

Funny how one rarely hears the phrase "special rights" these days, now that it's become more obvious how many people are fighting to keep their own special rights to themselves.

CorinneM wrote on August 10, 2007 11:14 AM:

He also discussed how he has denounced homophobia not only before gay crowds, but in his 2004 Democratic convention keynote speech, and even in environments like black churches.

Well here is his 2004 DNC convention keynote. It's a bit thin to support that claim. While he did mention blacks and homophobia at the Howard Univ. debate but as Republic of T noted

"Obama actually said the word “homophobia” in his answer on HIV/AIDS, and the riffed for a minute on the metaphor that “we are infected” with a number of other things that make us susceptible to the epidemic. But he didn’t make the natural leap that we’re infected with homophobia. Black ministers are spreading it from the pulpit and that’s one of the reasons why it’s taken 25 years for the Black Baptist Convention to even mention HIV/AIDS."

Overall, he sounded really irritated to be asked the question at all. Too bad.

CorinneM wrote on August 10, 2007 11:15 AM:

If a Democrat wins the election, I think Richardson should make the short list for Sec of State or some other high-level job that would put his diplomatic skills to good use.

But no, he's not ready to make the leap to president either.

Jonmichael wrote on August 10, 2007 11:20 AM:

I met John Edwards at a house party during the '04 primary in New Hampshire. My same-sex parther was with me. I definitely thought he was uncomfortable with us!

John Kerry, on the other hand, put an arm around each of us and and spoke privately to us in the middle of another crowded house party.

P.S. I love living in NH during primaries!

pgbach wrote on August 10, 2007 11:32 AM:

Richardson is clearly not ready for prime time.

mopper8 wrote on August 10, 2007 11:34 AM:

Er...I think you're being a little harsh. The keynote speech was not an issue speech, but he managed to make a point about homophobia and the south in it regardless. In the Howard debate, John Cohn thought he did fabulously precisely because he was able to chastise the audience (and the black community as a whole) for being unwilling to face its own homophobia.

Etc. He doesn't go around giving pro-gay speeches. But he does consistently include pro-gay messages in his larger, thematic speeches about inclusiveness and coming together as a nation, and he doesn't shy away from talking about homophobia to groups that are, on the whole homophobic.

jsamuel wrote on August 10, 2007 12:06 PM:

The question about DODT was not about Congress v President, but Military v President. Edwards didn't get it wrong.

AJM wrote on August 10, 2007 12:16 PM:

When you add up all the interest groups in America you get the total American population.

Rove and company use it in the following fashion: the Dems suppport interest groups like conservation while 'Pubs support the national interest like Big Oil. MSM falls for it every time.

The total plus or minus of an endorsement by a specific group is not the critical political factor. What is critical is the impact on persuadable voters.

bobbo wrote on August 10, 2007 12:33 PM:

I'm sorry, but I have to dissent from the apparently universal agreement that Richardson "blew it" because he did not recite the magic words, "being gay is not a choice." I am gay. Maybe the science proves it's not a choice, but I agree with Richardson that it is irrelevant. Choice or not, the point is, as Richardson said, that everyone is entitled to be treated equally. My problem with the "I did not choose this" line is that it sounds like an apology. "Of course, being gay is wrong, but hey, I didn't have a choice." And all the other candidates agree that it is not a choice, but barely any of them support gay marriage. Which is more important?

EricW wrote on August 10, 2007 12:35 PM:

I really question Richardson's diplomatic credentials and some of the things he's done in the past. For example, he went to Zaire as Clinton's envoy in 1998 just as Rwanda and Uganda were backing an invasion from the east. It made sense to send someone to help ease the ouster of Mobutu. But Richardson was accompanied by US mining executives, who were signing extraction deals with rebel leader Laurent Kabila before his forces even reached the capital. Disgusting. Another example: after the Clinton administration, Richardson was Chairman of Freedom House and working at Kissinger and Associates at the same time. He wrote a glowing op-ed for the frickin' Washington Times about the Kazakh regime and the wonderful US oil partnership there--no word about that regime's major human rights problems and democratic deficit. Even more recent things that got good press, like the cease-fire he brokered in Darfur, are questionable. The thing didn't last longer than about a week, and gave Bashir cover in his ongoing effort to undercut international pressure over the genocide. To anyone looking at that closely, it sure looked like more of a campaign stunt than a serious effort.

mopper8 wrote on August 10, 2007 12:47 PM:

Because when its couched as a choice, you give a rationale for denying rights ("hey--nobody is making you be gay. You want rights? Don't be gay") and, what's more, its derided as an immoral choice.

Calling something that's in-born immoral is near incoherent. Its like calling a cleft lip immoral.

What's more, those who propagate the notion that homosexuality is a choice always often champion the multitude of camps out there designed to "undo" homosexual "choices" by teaching homosexuals to be straight.

NJ Lawyer wrote on August 10, 2007 12:52 PM:

The Civil Rights Act of 1964 needs to be amended to include protection based on sexual orientation.

Dilan Esper wrote on August 10, 2007 1:45 PM:

It seems to me Gravel and Kucinich won this one, even though they have no chance of winning the nomination.

The fact of the matter is that all the rest of them understand that discrimination is wrong, and that reserving marriage to heteros only is discrimination, but they want the votes of hateful bigoted homophobes, so they won't advocate what they believe.

NJ Lawyer wrote on August 10, 2007 2:59 PM:

Kerry would have made a very good president.

terryhallinan wrote on August 10, 2007 3:06 PM:

The fact of the matter is that all the rest of them understand that discrimination is wrong, and that reserving marriage to heteros only is discrimination

Hey, Dilan, why is it only priests and gays want to get hitched these days?

This heretic doesn't care a whit if most heterosexual couples stop getting hitched and renegade priests and gays start.

I do think that reserving the word "marriage" for those concerned about terminology is immaterial. If that makes me a homophobe, then so be it.

I am awed that the atrocious "Don't ask, don't tell" atrocity in the armed forces is not damned for what it is. It is wrong, wrong, wrong. Maybe you can explain a law that truly does discriminate in a most vile manner and has resulted in more discharges for homosexuality than before the law according to some stats.

I do understand the powerful symbolism of officially sanctioned marriage to you - but, hey, don't get mad at me. Please.

Best, Terry

puissant wrote on August 10, 2007 5:23 PM:

The point remains there is no scientifically proven data that supports same gender sex as anything other than a choice. There is no science that supports bisexuality as anything other than a choice either. The truth is that human sexual preferences are across a spectrum. It's about sex for pleasure as opposed to reproduction and human choices of pleasure have a wide spectrum as well.

GBHeron wrote on August 10, 2007 5:41 PM:

I completely agree that from a political perspective it might be easier to demand rights for homosexuals if it is never a choice, but that doesn't make it true. There are some people -- such as bisexuals -- who have some degree of choice over their sexual preference and some people who do not. Both groups deserve equal treatment and legal protection.

Besides, homosexuality as genetic doesn't escape criticism from the radical right who argue that a) celibacy is always an option and b) alcoholism and pedophilia are genetic and that doesn't make them right (seriously, I've heard this). Both points are ludicrous and reveal the futility of tailoring arguments for the sake of the crazies.

If someone argues against homosexuality since they believe it is a choice, the response should be "Religion is a choice. Does that mean it doesn't deserve legal protection?"

Dilan Esper wrote on August 10, 2007 5:53 PM:

I don't think it is just symbolism. What, exactly, does "civil unions" mean? Does it mean that gays get the marital tax deduction? Do they get to bring their "civil partner" to the country and make him or her a permanent resident? Do they get veteran's and disability and Social Security suvivor's benefits? Are they afforded the same presumptions in adoption proceedings that married couples do? Are they protected against discrimination in employment based on marital status?

The fact is, thousands of laws provide benefits to "married couples", "spouses", and the like. I really don't care about the terminology itself either. What I do care about is discrimination, and the people who support discrimination are bigots.

The sad thing is, the Democratic Party won't stand up to them, other than the fringe candidates.

slcathena wrote on August 10, 2007 9:50 PM:

Nah, no zeros. You only get those when you continue to propogate the same lies that have been debunked multiple times.

slcathena wrote on August 10, 2007 9:53 PM:

I wasn't aware of either of the first two incidents you mention, and hadn't thought enough about the third. This was a ridiculously informative post, thank you for it. You've encouraged me to go do some more research on Richardson.

Ross Best wrote on August 11, 2007 1:17 AM:

"On marriage, John Edwards said he was on a 'journey,' hinting that he might one day support it but he just wasn't there yet."

The "war on homosexuals" is after all only a bad bumper sticker.

Maybe John Edwards will be the first of the major candidates to admit his mistake.

samddobermann wrote on August 11, 2007 1:53 AM:

Richardson put the kibosh on gay marriages when one of the county clerks started issuing marraige licenses a few years ago here in NM. He made it clear to the Atty General that she needed to come up with some opinion forbidding it. She issued an opinion saying since it wasn't provided for in the law, it couldn't be done. She could have as easily said that there was nothing in the law forbidding it and the NM constitution guaranteed everyone equal rights. But Big Bill didn't like the way it would look when he ran for Pres. 'Course that hasn't bothered Romney but Bill is all about appearances.

Hal from NY wrote on August 11, 2007 2:04 AM:

That's an interesting anecdote. But I'm not sure how important comfort level is. It would be nice, yes, if a candidate actually was at ease among gay people. But was Lyndon Johnson comfortable among black people? I don't think he had any in his inner circle. Yet he did more for black people than any president before him, except Lincoln, who also wasn't exactly comfortable among them.

whiterosebuddy wrote on August 11, 2007 8:36 AM:

I completely agree that from a political perspective it might be easier to demand rights for homosexuals if it is never a choice, but that doesn't make it true

I agree that if something is not a choice, folks are more likely to be receptive to 'rights' politically demanded. I believe also that when people want rights without being accountable for their choices it is easier to say they have no choice. Sex is a behavior and like all behaviors human beings have the free will to engage in a behavior or not.

There are some people -- such as bisexuals -- who have some degree of choice over their sexual preference and some people who do not

I disagree. Anytime sex is consensual the individual makes a choice to engage in it. Bisexuality is a sexual preference just as same gender sex and opposite gender sex. All of these sexual behaviors are choices. Morbidly obese people claim they do not have a choice about eating, but they do. Their unwillingness to acknowledge that overeating is a choice allows them to be unaccountable for the consequences of their eating choices. Women who fail to plan not to get pregnant will also say that it was not a choice, i.e. I did not plan it, it 'just happened'. This is also a statement that is a lack of accountablity for their behavior and choices. Women cannot argue for abortion rights based on getting pregnant was not their choice. Society rejects that and demands the individual be accountable for their choice instead. The majority recognize that consensual sex is a choice and there are consequences for that choice. The point being that sexual choices, eating choices and using contraception are all choices. People lack political grounds to demand rights while not accepting accountability for their choices because unaccountability for one's own actions is unacceptable in a civil society..

Besides, homosexuality as genetic doesn't escape criticism from the radical right who argue that a) celibacy is always an option and b) alcoholism and pedophilia are genetic and that doesn't make them right (seriously, I've heard this). Both points are ludicrous and reveal the futility of tailoring arguments for the sake of the crazies

Why is escaping criticism the goal? Even if same gender sex were genetic it does not mean that society would have to accept that behavior. Society makes laws against behaviors like drunk driving even though alcoholism has a genetic trait. So whether it is a choice or genetic, society has always reserved the right to impose consequences for behaviors the majority beleives should not be allowed.

If someone argues against homosexuality since they believe it is a choice, the response should be "Religion is a choice. Does that mean it doesn't deserve legal protection.

Religion is not a behavior. Individuals who engage in same gender sex are not arguing for legal protections they do not already have as human beings under the law. They are arguing for legal rights based on a specific behavior they choose to engage in that does not contribute to society. No one argues that the individual should not have the same rights as all other citizens when it comes to housing, employment, health insurance or the right to be free of public harassment. What they argue is that choosing to engage in a specific behavior does not entitle the individual to rights based on that behavior.

The overall point is simply that Richardson did not flub his answer. His view is consistent with how society has managed behavioral choices the vast majority of the time. Why should his view be any less tolerated than that of those who beleive it is a choice?

whiterosebuddy wrote on August 11, 2007 8:44 AM:

What, exactly, does "civil unions" mean? Does it mean that gays get the marital tax deduction? Do they get to bring their "civil partner" to the country and make him or her a permanent resident? Do they get veteran's and disability and Social Security suvivor's benefits? Are they afforded the same presumptions in adoption proceedings that married couples do? Are they protected against discrimination in employment based on marital status?

How does it benefit society to extend these financial incentives to same gender sex couples? These laws were enacted to encourage people to reproduce and raise children in intact families. Even if they remain childless, society beleived it was better for a male to be married as he would be less promiscous.

whiterosebuddy wrote on August 11, 2007 8:49 AM:

Why is the use of the word homophobia not tolerated when Obama says it? Is this not the term that the gay movement coined for the basis of people rejecting that same gender sex was normal? The term homophobe was used to castigate, denounce and ridicule anyone who was not tolerant of same gender sex being normal. Why is it now unacceptable to use?

amike wrote on August 11, 2007 8:58 AM:

As a gay man, I always return to this question with a question of my own...given the persecution, bullying, discrimination, "humor" and stereotyping, not to mention the Ann Coulters of the world on the one hand, and a social/commercial world with all sorts of advantages built in for heterosexuals, from the serious to the silly (I just contributed fifty bucks to a charity event and got a "family pass" as a payback...membership in my public radio station above the basic member level is called a family membership)...what kind of masochist would I have to be to "choose" gayness? This isn't the Matterhorn, to be climbed because it's there.

I do have a choice...several of them. I can accept who I am or not. I can enjoy who I am or not. (Let me be clear what I mean by that...I can like myself and value myself...there are no greater opportunities for titillation open to gay people than to straight people--where is the gay national restaurant chain the equivalent of "hooters"?). I can choose to be the best kind of person I can be, or not. But this certainly isn't what the buzzword "choice" means in contemporary society.

BTW... announcing my sexual orientation here gives some indication of the choices I've made.

aMike

whiterosebuddy wrote on August 11, 2007 9:18 AM:

I do have a choice...several of them. I can accept who I am or not. I can enjoy who I am or not. (Let me be clear what I mean by that...I can like myself and value myself...there are no greater opportunities for titillation open to gay people than to straight people--where is the gay national restaurant chain the equivalent of "hooters"?). I can choose to be the best kind of person I can be, or not. But this certainly isn't what the buzzword "choice" means in contemporary society.

And that is the esence of my point. Life is about choices and being accountable for those choices. Individuals engage in all types of behaviors that society does not condone, like speeding, running up credit cards, delivering human 'litters' ets. What they do not get to do is deny accountability for their actions to demand rights. Nor do they get to demand financial benefits based on their choices. A good example is the government will not pay for women to have abortions. Society imposes all sorts of rules on individual citizens all the time based on their behaviors.

Society is uninterested in why folks behave the way they do other than to prevent it from reoccurring when it is deleterious to society as a whole. What matters is holding folks accountable for their choices. We have the fredom to act but society has the right to impose consequences for those actions. For example people who discriminat against individuals who engage in homosexual acts are prosecuted under the law.

Society is not interested in why they discriminated against the individual. Nor do they ask why the person did it knowing they could be imprisoned. They simply say it will not be tolerated under the law. .

Dilan Esper wrote on August 11, 2007 2:54 PM:

1. We don't ask how it would "benefit society" to extend benefits and rights equally to blacks, or to women. Gays are entitled to the same rights as everyone else, simply by virtue of their being fellow human beings.

2. I don't think it is proven that all of those laws were enacted to encourage reproduction and raise children. The tax deduction? Maybe. But how about taking estates out of probate, or allowing a spouse to come to the country, or health insurance benefits? It seems to me most of this is on the basis of: (a) if you have decided to share your life with someone, you ought to be able to extend to that person these benefits, and (b) to encourage monogamy and stable relationships. Both of these apply to gays and lesbians.

3. Further, gays and lesbians raise children together too. It seems to me that the "marriage is for children" argument leads to a claim that we should discriminate against gay and lesbian parents in favor of heterosexual parents. And this is a bigoted and offensive position, belied by the thousands of excellent and dedicated gay and lesbian parents.

4. If marriage is all about children and reproduction, then why is there no call to deny it, or some of its benefits, not only to homosexual couples but to heterosexual couples who don't reproduce? Nobody is proposing that because nobody really believes it-- it's just a cover for bigotry.

Gary Small wrote on August 12, 2007 1:40 AM:

I really question Richardson's diplomatic credentials and some of the things he's done in the past

Like when Bill Richardson headed the Energy Department during the Wen Ho Lee affair. Lee was charged in December 1999 with 59 counts of mishandling classified information and violating the Atomic Energy Act, and jailed for nine months pending trial. He spent 278 days in solitary confinement, often chained to the floor with lights on 24/7, before being released in September 2000 with an apology from presiding US District Judge James A. Parker.

Even if this quote from Wikipedia is NOT true:

Former Secretary of Energy Bill Richardson, who had oversight of Los Alamos National Laboratory at the time and effectively ordered Lee's firing, is considered, by some, likely to have been the mysterious source who leaked Lee's name to reporters.

as head of the Energy Department Richardson was either in touch with the 'dark arts' or he was out of touch and incompetent.

I would hope incompetence is the excuse, but take your pick.

Tankard wrote on August 12, 2007 10:16 AM:

Progressives at least should know better than to swallow, then regurgitate, right-wing Kool-Aid.

Dr. Lee WAS treated somewhat harshly, and whether this confessed felon's treatment was appropriate or not is debatable. However, he was NEVER chained to the floor of his cell, let alone "often." He was shackled when being moved from place to place within a Santa Fe, New Mexico, County facility, where he was being held to facilitate visits from his family.

Bill Richardson's candidacy died a righteous death (after a long period of apparent coma) when he declared homosexuality to be a choice. There is no need to revive disingenuous Republican propaganda in an attempt to murder a cadaver.

hrebendorf wrote on August 12, 2007 2:56 PM:

where is the gay national restaurant chain the equivalent of "hooters"?

It's called hooters. They let gay people in. I swear to God.

hrebendorf wrote on August 12, 2007 2:59 PM:

Being gay is not a choice. Being sibilant is, however.

hrebendorf wrote on August 12, 2007 3:13 PM:

This has always been an interesting and somewhat odd debate, in my opinion. I think people should have a right to be legally married if that's what they want. But what, exactly, is the difference between a civil marriage and a civil union? Last time I checked, the state had no authority whatsoever to consecrate a marriage, therefore ALL civil marriages are, by definition, civil unions--doesn't matter whether they're gay, straight or otherwise. Marry your dog down at the courthouse if you like. It's a legal procedure, much like getting a fishing license or a driver's license. Nothing more, nothing less. Those who worry that gay marriage somehow threatens the "sanctity" of the union have endowed the state with authority the state simply does not possess.

If you don't like gay marriage, fine. Join a church that won't perform same-sex marriages, and everything's cool. But when you oppose gay legal marriages, you're simply missing the point that the state can't marry anyone in a religious sense.

From a religious standpoint, there's simply no problem here. Separation of church and state guarantees it. And John Edwards, of all people, should understand that.

Tankard wrote on August 12, 2007 5:22 PM:

Marry your dog down at the courthouse if you like.
You've been reading "The Wit and Wisdom of Rick Santorum" again, haven't you?

amike wrote on August 12, 2007 6:34 PM:

I know from elsewhere around here you're anything but dense, so I think you know what I really mean. :-) But just in case, I theorize...

The equivalent would probably be called "Baskets", and I suspect they'd let straight people in, though I won't swear to it. I'm not one to swear except in extreme situations, like walking barefoot into the runner of a rocking chair, breaking the little toe. I did use choice language then.

I doubt the cuisine at hypothetical Baskets would be up to my standard, however. Neither is Hooters...and I don't go there whether I'm allowed or not.

aMike

whiterosebuddy wrote on August 12, 2007 6:53 PM:

"There is no such thing as a homosexual.There are only individuals who engage in homosexual acts."

Gore Vidal.

Who understood that all consensual sexual acts humans engage in are solely choice.

whiterosebuddy wrote on August 12, 2007 7:48 PM:

We don't ask how it would "benefit society" to extend benefits and rights equally to blacks, or to women. Gays are entitled to the same rights as everyone else, simply by virtue of their being fellow human beings.

First, Individuals who engage in homosexual acts already have all the rights blacks and women do as human beings. In truth they have more 'privilege' given that the society is racist and sexist. Which is why the argument that gay people do not have some rights is specious. Individuals who engage in homosexual acts are not discriminated against on the basis of race or gender. Nor are they denied any rights as human beings. Single people in society all have the same benefits regardless of race or gender.

Second, gender and race are immutable. Sexual behavior is a choice. What you are attempting to do is claim homosexual acts as some type of identity and it isn't. It is something that individuals do not who they are. Human beings cannot 'do' gender or 'do' race. So the attempt to conflate sexual behavior to race and gender is completely false. Third, to say that soceity did not ask about extending benefits to blacks and gender is mixing apples and oranges when speaking about civil unions. Women nor blacks were asking anything from society based on their sexual behavior. Again homosexual acts is somthing individuals do, not who they are. There simply is no benefit to society to extend the financial benefits that are an incentive to reproduce in a family unit to raise other human beings to same gender sex couples. NONE.

Society does not extend benefits to individuals based on sexual behavior. Society extends benefits to promote marriage and reproduction within a marriage as opposed to children being raised without fathers or mothers. Society does not have a goal for children to be raised without a mother or father in the home as that is not the best model for human development..

But how about taking estates out of probate, or allowing a spouse to come to the country, or health insurance benefits? It seems to me most of this is on the basis of: (a) if you have decided to share your life with someone, you ought to be able to extend to that person these benefits, and (b) to encourage monogamy and stable relationships. Both of these apply to gays and lesbians.

I disagree as again there is no benefit to society to promote or encourage same gender sex relationships. It does not serve the greater good of society which is to reproduce and do so in a manner that provides for the optimum development of human beings. Children need a father and a mother to maximize their potential as human beings. The needs of children should not be subjugated for adult sexual proclivities. In the interest of human development the marriage union between a man and woman forms the foundation that serves the best interest of the child's development. Individuals who choose not to marry the opposite sex are not serving the greater need of society but ratherr their very own selfish sexual desires. Thus the lack of benefits, regardless of race or gender.

Further, gays and lesbians raise children together too. It seems to me that the "marriage is for children" argument leads to a claim that we should discriminate against gay and lesbian parents in favor of heterosexual parents. And this is a bigoted and offensive position, belied by the thousands of excellent and dedicated gay and lesbian parents.

It is not about the parents, it is about the child. Society has a duty and obligation to look out for the best interest of the child not adults who choose to priortize their sexual desires over those of developing human beings while clamoring for benefits that do not benefit children nor society. That anyone is unable to recognize that the child's needs should come first is nothing more than selfish arrogance. None of the benefits gays are clamoring about benefit children. The demand is totally narcissitic.

If marriage is all about children and reproduction, then why is there no call to deny it, or some of its benefits, not only to homosexual couples but to heterosexual couples who don't reproduce? Nobody is proposing that because nobody really believes it-- it's just a cover for bigotry.

Society makes rules to benefit the whole not the individual and that is what you are calling bigotry. Marriage does not have to be about reproducing, rather it is the unit that society knows is the best model for raising human beings.Why should society provide tax benefits or incentives for any model other than the one that is best for children? That will simply create incentive for more unions which are not the best for raising human beings. What sense does it make to encourage less than what is best? Les than optimun models proliferate on their own. Society therefore has no need to promote more of it. Marriage also was an incentive for males to marry and not have children by multiple women as that was not in the best interest of children. You call this bigotry when it is working for the common good of society. Society gains nothing by promoting same gender marriages. That is not bigotry it is what is best for children and society, unlike the narcissism masquerading as some 'human rights' demand by gays.

It's really sad that a small minority of individuals are too arrogantly selfish and self-centered to recognize that the sexual behavior they choose to engage in has no overall benefit to society and especially not to children.

Prioritizing the needs of children and providing incentives to promote the best model for human development is not bigotry.

amike wrote on August 12, 2007 7:51 PM:

I can't tell you how much this hurts, whiterosebuddy, so I won't try.

aMike

whiterosebuddy wrote on August 12, 2007 8:06 PM:

I am sorry that you hurt.

This is not about any one person but rather the very real responsibility that society has to promote the best model for developing human beings. All of the benefits that acrue to married couples are because those individuals have agreed to the same goals society has when it comes to maximizing human development.

Why do individuals beleive they have a right to deny children what is best for them?

I apologize if this hurts you. Yet societys are judged by how they treat their children. So this issue is bigger than any one person's feelings, nevertheless I apologize for providing the opposing viewpoint and that view causing you hurt

Tankard wrote on August 12, 2007 8:39 PM:

Societies are judged on more than the way they treat children; but if your statement were true, societies would also be judged on how they treat gay children.

Sexual behavior is a choice. Sexual orientation is not. You may as well hate a Tuareg for being a Tuareg or a green-eyed person for being a green-eyed person. I can prove this to you if you care to be educated. If you prefer to remain bigotted on this subject, that IS in fact your choice.

whiterosebuddy wrote on August 12, 2007 9:09 PM:

societies would also be judged on how they treat gay children

there is no such thing as a gay child. There are individuals who are minors that engage in homosexual acts.

Sexual behavior is a choice. Sexual orientation is not.

Sexual orientation is a hypothesis based on the theory of there being a genetic basis for individuals to engage in homosexual acts. Sexual orientation has not been scientifically proven. i.e. there is no gene for homosexuality...nor bisexuality for that matter either

Sexual behavior is a choice. Human sexual preference ihas a wide spectrum including but not limited to bisexuality, necrophilia, pedophilia, heterosexuality, incest, menage a trois, homosexuality. Humans choose to engage in sex and they develop sexual preferences.

If you prefer to remain bigotted on this subject, that IS in fact your choice.

Who are you to claim that I hate anyone or anything? Who are you to assert that I am bigotted becasue I have an opposing viewpoint about sexual behavior? Folks like you are intolerant of other's views while pandering for tolerance and acceptance of your own view.

I am not advocating for any discriminatory acts against individuals who engage in homosexual acts. Nor do I dislike individuals based on their sexual preferences...unless it is pedophilia or incest. So far from being bigotted, I have a very solid factual based viewpoint. Which is more than can be said for your factless opinions, speculations and hypotheticals you are throwing out while engaging in namecalling as if you have some moral high ground. You don't.. Don't attack the messenger simply because you lack credibility or real facts to support your own view.

If you want to have a reasonable dialogue without namecalling.I suggest you learn the facts first...then have at it.

Tankard wrote on August 12, 2007 10:46 PM:

there is no such thing as a gay child. There are individuals who are minors that engage in homosexual acts.
Then I suppose there is no such thing as a gay adult, either. Just individuals who are adults who chose to engage in homosexual acts, right?

Sexual orientation has not been scientifically proven.
Let's both try to make sense here, OK? That doesn't.

Humans choose to engage in sex and they develop sexual preferences.
They "develop sexual preferences?" Inasmuch as you're married to facts, please cite some sources here. Unscientific right-wing propaganda doesn't count.

Who are you to claim that I hate anyone or anything?
You are using the language of bigots. You are using the tone of bigots. You are using the arguments of bigots. People will get the impression that you're a bigot.

Folks like you are intolerant of other's views while pandering for tolerance and acceptance of your own view.
I am pleased to be a panderer for tolerance. I am further please to be intolerant of intolerance.

engaging in namecalling as if you have some moral high ground
Actually, I do have the high moral ground. I did not intend to engage in name-calling, although it may have come off that way. I should have said you were behaving in a bigotted way.

I am not advocating for any discriminatory acts against individuals who engage in homosexual acts.
I think you are.

Don't attack the messenger simply because you lack credibility or real facts to support your own view.
I made you an offer. I am still prepared to prove to you that one does not choose his or her sexual orientation. So I ask again. Care to take me up on it? Or do you prefer to remain bigotted?

Gary Small wrote on August 13, 2007 5:33 AM:

Thank you Tankard. I won't go beyond the fact that Lee, after 58 charges were dropped and his plea-bargained criminal debt to society was exacted a mere $100 fine. A saving grace for the Feds so that stone throwers might deflect their aim to the wrong target.

I would rather not point out the warts fellow democrats display in public, I've kissed worse, but when the vetting process has let this bozo slip onto the national stage it's time for me to throw tomatoes.

I know Richardson will not be our next President, I am just voicing my opinion that this man has no place in any democratic administration that I would support. If the voters of N.M. find themselves Governed by Richardson fine, I understand, I'm stuck with 'Ahnuld' here in California.

With the small 'd' after his name he may have caucused and voted with the preferred party for the thirty four odd years of his public life, but my opinion is that he is a professional politician in the worst sense. I realize that on a few of the issues he talks the right talk, but he has shot too many other people besides himself in the foot to ignore. If you consider it unseemly of me to expose what I think of as bad apples in our barrel, then so be it. I will watch my tongue as it gets bitten by others.

I am not trying to "revive disingenuous Republican propaganda in an attempt to murder a cadaver." I am trying to keep a disingenuous politician from getting an artificial heart and biting anybody else in the ass.

Dilan Esper wrote on August 13, 2007 2:25 PM:

"First, Individuals who engage in homosexual acts already have all the rights blacks and women do as human beings. In truth they have more 'privilege' given that the society is racist and sexist. Which is why the argument that gay people do not have some rights is specious. Individuals who engage in homosexual acts are not discriminated against on the basis of race or gender."

Actually, discrimination against gays and lesbians, if you want to get technical about it, IS gender discrimination. Just as discriminating against someone because they date or marry outside their race is race discrimination, discriminating against someone because they date or marry within their gender is gender discrimination.

"Second, gender and race are immutable. Sexual behavior is a choice."

I am not going to get into the debate about whether sexual orientation is immutable. Science seems to tell us it is. But even if it is assumed to be a choice, what you are missing is that it is an IRRELEVANT choice. We prohibit religious discrimination. Religion is chosen. Do you think that society and private employers and landlords should be able to decide that fundamentalist Christianity is anti-science, anti-knowledge, delusional, and bad for society and thus conclude that fundamentalist Christians should be discriminated against? After all, they CHOOSE to be fundamentalist Christians.

For me, the argument doesn't depend at all on what the basis of sexual orientation is. It's irrelevant to one's ability to serve in the military, work in a job, or raise children. Indeed, it's even less relevant to religion-- one can at least ARGUE that someone who, for instance, won't work on Saturday or Sunday or needs to wear a special dress or to pray five times a day or whatever may not be able to do his or her job as well.

"Society extends benefits to promote marriage and reproduction within a marriage as opposed to children being raised without fathers or mothers."

That's bunk. Society gives ALL of the same benefits to childless heterosexual married couples. And it withholds the benefits to many children raised with fathers and mothers, i.e., by unmarried cohabiting couples.

"I disagree as again there is no benefit to society to promote or encourage same gender sex relationships."

Ever heard of the HIV virus? There's a huge benefit to society in encouraging gay males to form monogamous relationships. It also benefits society for those gay and lesbian couples who are raising children to have stable bonds. And it benefits society-- a lot-- to allow gays and lesbians to live happy lives. Do you really think it's good for a gay to have to either move out of America or split up from his boyfriend because he can't move to this country? Do the lives of gays and lesbians, and THEIR hopes and aspirations, count for you at all? Or do people only have the right to pursue happiness if they sleep with the gender that you approve of them sleeping with? Do we all have to get permission slips from you before we enter into relationships? Who put you in charge?

"Children need a father and a mother to maximize their potential as human beings."

What do you mean, "need"? I understand there are some people who argue that children BENEFIT from two parents, but "need"? Aren't there millions of well-adjusted people who have been raised by single parents? You are making some mighty sweeping claims without any evidence.

"Society has a duty and obligation to look out for the best interest of the child not adults who choose to priortize their sexual desires over those of developing human beings while clamoring for benefits that do not benefit children nor society."

How do you know? How do you even know if your average lesbian couple raising a child even has sex at all? Again, have you taken a sex survey? Have you talked to any lesbian or gay couples raising children?

And why is it that when two gay people sleep together, they are automatically neglecting their children? Is that the way you view straight sex? What about straight oral sex? Straight anal sex? Is it what organ the penis goes into that determines this?

Come on, you are pretty obsessed with what some other people are doing or not doing behind closed doors. Have you seen a psychiatrist about your sexual obsessions?

"Marriage does not have to be about reproducing, rather it is the unit that society knows is the best model for raising human beings.Why should society provide tax benefits or incentives for any model other than the one that is best for children?"

You are missing the point. If marriage is all about reproducing, you should have no problem precluding the childless from getting its benefits. If it isn't all about reproducing, as you seem to concede, then there's no reason childless gay couples shouldn't be able to have it, except bigotry.

"You call this bigotry when it is working for the common good of society."

No, I call it bigotry because you want to use the law to punish gays and lesbians for sleeping with the people they care about.

By the way, what's up with this "homosexuals"? The term is "gay and lesbian". Learn it. Use it. Or do you still walk around calling blacks "negroes"?

"It's really sad that a small minority of individuals are too arrogantly selfish and self-centered to recognize that the sexual behavior they choose to engage in has no overall benefit to society and especially not to children."

So every time anyone decides to engage in sexual behavior, they have to ask themselves whether it benefits society? Do you do this? Seriously, does anyone?

You are a classic puritan-- you are upset that someone, somewhere, is having more fun in the bedroom than you are. I pity you.

Tankard wrote on August 13, 2007 8:17 PM:

I keep running into this phenomenon, so it must be my issue. I try to agree with someone's overall point, but at the same time criticize the method or tactic. That's what I was trying to do above. So let me put it another way.

Fine. Drive an extra stake or two through the heart of the Richardson campaign. But please, I beg you, do it using facts, not apocrypha -- particularly not Republican apocrypha.

whiterosebuddy wrote on August 14, 2007 12:00 PM:

Then I suppose there is no such thing as a gay adult, either. Just individuals who are adults who chose to engage in homosexual acts, right?

Individuals engage in homosexual acts regardless of age. What people do sexually is not an identity.

Let's both try to make sense here, OK? That doesn't.

It makes sense even if you are unable to comprehend it. If you need to look up the definition of the terms do so. Once again, sexual orientation is a hypothesis based on the theory that there is a genetic basis for homosexual behavior. There is no gene for sexual behavior. NONE. Thus the term sexual orientation is invalid and meaningless, just another factless distortion of the fact that people choose what to do when in engaging in consensual sex.

They "develop sexual preferences?" Inasmuch as you're married to facts, please cite some sources here. Unscientific right-wing propaganda doesn't count.

If you are this language challenged get a dictionary. Most people know that preference is interchangeagle with the word choice. People explore sexual acts and they pick and choose the ones they find most pleasurable. When a pattern of choices develops they become sexual preferences. Geez. I suspect you lack the vocabulary and intellect to engage in a cogent discussion thus your need to resort to namecalling and labelling to shift the focus from your not having any facts but just an emotional rant. Which of course you are entitled to.

I am pleased to be a panderer for tolerance. I am further please to be intolerant of intolerance.

You have no clue what intolerance is. You can't even understand that you are using unproven hypothesess to support your assertions. Nor can you specify any hate language on my part which incites others to discriminate against people.

You are using the language of bigots.

No. You lack the ability to understand the language as well as the evidence. You instead bellow and spew inflammatory words in an attempt to rile emotions for affirmation of your conjecture and foolish notions. You are trying to characterize my assertions because you cannot rebut them with facts. This is a common tactic of bullies and deficient critical thinking skills combined with narcissism. No matter how you label the assertions or attempt to kill the messenger, the fact remains you have no valid opposing argument. Just an emotional rant like a toddler having a tantrum to get their way. Which is consistent with believing behavior is an identity. It's the misguided view that you can demand respect based on aberrant behavior and it does work with intelligent people.

Actually, I do have the high moral ground. I did not intend to engage in name-calling, although it may have come off that way. I should have said you were behaving in a bigotted way.

No you have no moral grounds whatsoever to incite with inflammatory language make factless and false accusation to generally engage in distorting an issue as an attempt to intimidate others into silence. You cannot know what a bigot is either or you would not have used the term. I have not engaged in hate or intolerance. I have stated an opposing view and I have provided solid rationale for it. Which is far more than you have done. You want to appeal to emotions and attack the messenger. You seek to characterize the statements in a negative manner rather than acknowledge that support for children is not intolerance, hate nor bigotry.

I think you are.

Your thoughts have no basis in reality or facts. Supporting the rights of children is not discriminatory. What it does is say that children are the top priority not adult sexual desires. Adults are capable of managing their sexual desires and should not ever expect that their sexual needs will be the first priortiy when it comes to maximizing the potential of human development. It takes a very narcissitic individual not to understand that the world does not revolve around their sexual desires. Which is consistent with choosing sexual behavior for an identity.

I made you an offer .I am still prepared to prove to you that one does not choose his or her sexual orientation.So I ask again. Care to take me up on it

I already answered this. Sexual orientation is a hypothesis based on the theory that there is a genetic basis for homosexuality. It is an unproven theory. There is no genetic basis. There is nothing you can prove. There is no such gene.

Here's my offer, you can engage me again when you understand the meaning of the words hypothesis and theory Until then you will continue to demonstrate a bigotted attitude of willfully engaging in ignorance and infantile emotions due to the lack of evidence to support your bigotted views.

whiterosebuddy wrote on August 14, 2007 1:44 PM:

Actually, discrimination against gays and lesbians, if you want to get technical about it, IS gender discrimination.

I do not understand this reasoning whatsoever. Gender is immutable. You are either born male or female. Whether you are male or female you are not discriminated against on the basis of gender for your sexual behavior. Individuals who choose to engage in sexual acts with the same gender have experienced discrimination.

I am not going to get into the debate about whether sexual orientation is immutable. Science seems to tell us it is. But even if it is assumed to be a choice, what you are missing is that it is an IRRELEVANT choice

You are not going to get into the science because there is no proven scientific data that supports your view. So that's fine. We can agree to disagree. You think that choice is irrelevant when it isn't. It is relevant because individuals refuse to accept accountability for their actions when they claim their consensual sexual behavior is not a choose but some involuntary uncontrollable action on their part based on their genes. That is very relevant to demanding some rights on the basis of discrimation for the choices the individuals choose.

We prohibit religious discrimination. Religion is chosen

Once again religion is not a behavior. It is irrelevant when discussing sexual behavior, just as race is and just as gender is. Most importantly, religious discrimination is prohibited in the constitution. There is no constitutional basis for opposing discrimination on the basis of behavior. To the contrary, a civil society makes numerous laws prohibiting behaviors which are beleived to not deemed not in the best interest of society at large to perpetuate. Discrimination against behaviors is not unconstitutional.

It's irrelevant to one's ability to serve in the military, work in a job, or raise children. Indeed, it's even less relevant to religion-- one can at least ARGUE that someone who, for instance, won't work on Saturday or Sunday or needs to wear a special dress or to pray five times a day or whatever may not be able to do his or her job as well.

I agree.

That's bunk. Society gives ALL of the same benefits to childless heterosexual married couples. And it withholds the benefits to many children raised with fathers and mothers, i.e., by unmarried cohabiting couples

Benefits are available to all individuals who comitt to marriage as that is the model that society deems best for raising children with a mother and father. All individuals independent of the sexual preferences are capable of getting married. If they choose not to provide the best model for raising children, society has no vested interest in providing benefits to those who choose not to do so.

There's a huge benefit to society in encouraging gay males to form monogamous relationships. It also benefits society for those gay and lesbian couples who are raising children to have stable bonds.

According to gay males this is false. Gay males have written books and there is research that shows gay males do not have monogamy as a desirable goal. Rather, the male drive for promiscuity is accepted as part of homosexual relationships. Society has no vested interest in providing incentives for relationships that are not the best model for maximizing the potential of human development. Society has chosen not to encourage or promote anything other than the best model for good reason. Numerous studies document the negative impact on children who are raised without a mother or father.

What do you mean, "need"?

I mean 'need' in the same way that plants require and need sunshine, water, and nutrients to maximize their full growth potential. The same is true for human development potential. Children need a mother and father to maximize their full potential as human beings.

How do you know? How do you even know if your average lesbian couple raising a child even has sex at all? Again, have you taken a sex survey? Have you talked to any lesbian or gay couples raising children?And why is it that when two gay people sleep together, they are automatically neglecting their children? Is that the way you view straight sex? What about straight oral sex? Straight anal sex? Is it what organ the penis goes into that determines this?

None of this is relevant. Which is the entire point. Adult sexual desires are not the priority. Maximizing the development of human beings is the priority. Individuals who clamor for rights that will not provide the best model for the growth and development of human beings are focused solely on what is in their best interest not children or society. Society is focused on what is childrens' and societys best interest in providing optimum models for maximizing the potential for human beings to be all that can be in society. Society is not interested in promoting or perpetuating the narcissitc self interest of individuals who make demands based on their sexual desires.

Come on, you are pretty obsessed with what some other people are doing or not doing behind closed doors. Have you seen a psychiatrist about your sexual obsessions?

Let's see. You pose all these prurient sexual queries and then claim I am obessed and I ned to see a psychiatrist? I'm not the one raising these sex obsessed issues..you are. My focus is maximizing the development of children in our society not sex. You are focused on the sex of it all. Again, this is consistent with individuals who actually claim what they do sexually as an identity. Nothing could be more profoundly sexually obsessive than choosing sexual behavior to tell the world that what you do with your genitals is who you are. I do not think I need the psychiatrist. I nor the majority of people introduce themselves by the sexual acts they choose to engage in. I can't even imagine going to a pary or being in a business meeting and the folks introduce themselve as:

I'm a sixtyniner.

I'm missionary.

I'm gay

I'm mostly doggy.

I'm lesbian.

I'm a swinger.

I'm menage a trois.

It is totally absurd. For anyone to beleive that the sexual acts they choose to engage in makes that somehow an identity when every single human being on the planet has sexual preferences. Except the majority know that it is private.

You are missing the point. If marriage is all about reproducing, you should have no problem precluding the childless from getting its benefits. If it isn't all about reproducing, as you seem to concede, then there's no reason childless gay couples shouldn't be able to have it, except bigotry.

No, maybe you are missing the point. Marriage between men and women is the best model for raising children. Whether individuals remain childless in the marriage does not change that they are by being married perpetuating the best model for human development. They are engaging in what society wants to promote. They receive benefits for that as society has no interest in penalizing them for being childless. The structural unit of marriage pomotes stable relationships and less promiscuity. Which is also a goal of society. Being childless does not harm society. Raising children without a mother and father is not a societal goal.

No, I call it bigotry because you want to use the law to punish gays and lesbians for sleeping with the people they care about.

No. It is not bigotry period. The law does not punish individuals. Individuals have the right to choose to be married or not. If they choose not to that is not society punishing them. Society has no obligation to support demands for anything that is not in the best interest of society. The truth is that it sounds infantile to suggest that society is punishing people because those people refuse to support the best model for human develop. Those individuals are not being punished they instead are opposing the system and whinning and yammering about their sexual desires not being the top priority for the society.

No one cares who adults sleep with consensually. That is not the issue here. The issue here is children. The issue here is society providing incentives for the best model to maximize the development of human beings. Single individuals are not being punished. In fact they are not bound by the institution of marriage and all the laws and rights that inherit with marriage. It is a choice. Not a punishment.

By the way, what's up with this "homosexuals"? The term is "gay and lesbian". Learn it. Use it.

Even though I think there is no such thing as a homosexual, only individuals who engage in homosexual acts; conventional thinking is that the term 'Homosexuals' includes gays and lesbians. I was not speaking of either/or thus the use of the inclusive term homosexuals. So what is up with you not having learned that and being unable to use it appropriately?

So every time anyone decides to engage in sexual behavior, they have to ask themselves whether it benefits society? Do you do this? Seriously, does anyone?

No. Sexual behavior is not at issue. Maximizing the potential of human development is. Individuals who are not focused on sex as an identity are able to see that. All of which underscores the issue here. You are still talking about benefits based on what folks do with their genitals. My focus is on developing human beings.

You are a classic puritan-- you are upset that someone, somewhere, is having more fun in the bedroom than you are. I pity you.

I pity you. You are so wrapped up in sex and it is such a priorty in your life that it blinds you to the far greater potential of human beings beyond their sexual behavior. I am uninterested in what people do in their sexual lives. I think it is hallmark of narcissism to beleive that the sexual acts a person engages in are an identity. It's really sad that you are unable to see and understand that human beings mean far more to life than sexual acts and who you engage in them with

Dilan Esper wrote on August 14, 2007 4:43 PM:

"I do not understand this reasoning whatsoever. Gender is immutable. You are either born male or female. Whether you are male or female you are not discriminated against on the basis of gender for your sexual behavior. Individuals who choose to engage in sexual acts with the same gender have experienced discrimination."

Just as at one time, those who chose to engage in sexual acts with someone of the same race experienced discrimination. That was race discrimination-- this is gender discrimination.

"You are not going to get into the science because there is no proven scientific data that supports your view."

No, I just don't think it matters to the argument. But for the record, there is extensive scientific evidence that it is not chosen, as well as the testimony of gays and lesbians themselves-- whom you must think are a bunch of liars.

"Once again religion is not a behavior."

What are you talking about? Religious practice is a behavior just as sex acts are. Going to church on Sunday is a behavior-- but we don't allow people to fire someone or to refuse to rent to someone or to refuse a marriage certificate to someone because they go to church.

And this is true even if the church the person goes to is PROVEN to be a harmful institution-- as opposed to your unsupported innuendo about how the world is going to end because two guys love each other.

"I mean 'need' in the same way that plants require and need sunshine, water, and nutrients to maximize their full growth potential."

At some point the solution seems to simply note that you don't know what the heck you are talking about. There are hundreds of thousands of Americans who were raised by a single parent and have reached their full growth and potential.

Again, you can argue probabilities if you want, but the idea that a child NEEDS a father and a mother is CLEARLY false.

"None of this is relevant. Which is the entire point. Adult sexual desires are not the priority. Maximizing the development of human beings is the priority. Individuals who clamor for rights that will not provide the best model for the growth and development of human beings are focused solely on what is in their best interest not children or society."

So the Lovings, who clamored for their right to get married despite being an interracial couple, could not be good parents? Really, you need to quit while you are behind.

"No. It is not bigotry period. The law does not punish individuals. Individuals have the right to choose to be married or not."

OK, let's suppose you moved to a country where only gay marriage was allowed. Would YOU feel you had an equal right to marry in that situation.

Seriously, you are profoundly bigoted-- YOU ARE TRYING TO CHANGE GAYS INTO STRAIGHTS BY FORCING THEM TO MARRY THE OPPOSITE GENDER! You are consumed by hatred of gay people. You want the awesome power of the state to be brought in to try and get them to unite their genitals only with the right genitals.

"My focus is maximizing the development of children in our society not sex."

Then why the heck do you think that the fact that a child's father places his penis in another man's anus or mouth will automatically cause the child to be screwed up?

Look, of all the problems kids have growing up in this world, where their parents put their genitals surely isn't a big one.

Indeed, I don't think you are sincere at all. If you gave a crap about children, you wouldn't be obsessed with who their parents were sleeping with.

"Individuals who are not focused on sex as an identity are able to see that."

You are stacking the deck here. Heterosexuals don't have to declare their identity because whack-jobs like you aren't trying to use the government to force them to change who they sleep with or punish them for sleeping with the wrong gender. So now, having forced gays to fight for their rights by refusing to afford them equal dignity, now you declare them bad parents because they fight for the rights that YOU ARE TRYING TO DENY THEM. Seriously, do you care about the welfare of gay and lesbian Americans at all? Or do they just don't count?

"You are so wrapped up in sex and it is such a priorty in your life that it blinds you to the far greater potential of human beings beyond their sexual behavior."

To the contrary, I think that human beings maximize their potential when sex is demystified. Part of demystifying it is to stop assuming that plain vanilla heterosexual missionary position intercourse is the only moral sexual activity and that anyone who does anything else is a deviant who is going to ruin the children.

It is the homophobes who are obsessed with sex, because they claim where a man's penis is placed has some impact on how the children turn out.

Tankard wrote on August 14, 2007 7:54 PM:

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Tankard wrote on August 14, 2007 7:56 PM:

WRB, I don't mind your calling me a bigot if you wish -- although it would help your case if you defined the group that you think I hate. I also don't mind your claiming that I "lack vocabulary and intellect," even though you have given me maximum ratings on other topics over the past few days. I understand that when someone is deeply guilty about something, he/she tends to project his/her own high emotion on to others. It won't make a bit of difference to me or any other reader here whether you continue to call me a bully, an infantile person with "deficient critical thinking skills," or a narcissist who appeals to emotion rather than fact. While you're at it, call me a wombat, a cymbidium, or what Scrooge called Marley: "an undigested bit of beef, a blot of mustard, a crumb of cheese, a fragment of an underdone potato." Your opinion of me is really quite irrelevant to the argument.

I can see that we're talking right past each other, so further "debate" is probably futile, but there are a few points I need to make here to a person whom I admire in most respects, but whose attitude I see as profoundly ill-considered in at least one. Even if you are unable to absorb them, they might be of use to others.

You present a number of assertions as fact. Examples:

Society beleived [sic] it was better for a male to be married as he would be less promiscous [sic].

There is no such thing as a gay child.

What people do sexually is not an identity.

Adults are capable of managing their sexual desires.

These are all opinions and not borne out by my experience.

You also say:

Individuals who engage in homosexual acts already have all the rights blacks and women do as human beings.

Sexual orientation is a hypothesis based on the theory that there is a genetic basis for homosexuality.

There is no gene for sexual behavior.

The first is flatly untrue. Straight blacks and women are permitted to marry people to whom they are physically attracted, for example. Straight blacks and women are permitted to defend our country in the armed forces, for example. Straight blacks and women are permitted to make decisions for their incapacitated mates in most states, for example.

The second statement quoted above is not necessarily true. I do not know what the "basis of homosexuality" is, and neither do you. What I do know is that most people report a powerful tendency toward sexual desire for one gender or the other long before they have any sexual experience. This rather knocks your "try everything and settle on the most pleasurable" theory into a cocked hat.

The question of sexual behavior gene is moot. We don't know enough about the relationship between genetics and environment to make any statement about this now, and perhaps we never will. I know that there are cases of identical twins having different orientations, so that would tend to support your assertion. OTOH, examples of these are extremely rare, which would litigate against it. But no matter. The question of whether orientation is genetic is not determinative of whether or not it is a choice, let alone a conscious one. At its bottom (no salacious reference intended), the "preference gene" issue is a straw man.

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