We all know that Hillary is the queen of pandering. If she really wants to make a statment why don't she give back to Rupert Murdoch the $2300 he donated to her campaign. That would make a statement.

at this point can you really fight Murdoch? i mean the guy owns FOX, FOX news, newspapers, direcTV and is making a play even for Dow Jones.

Murdoch is simply hedging his bets and hooking HIllary up cause he knows what will happen in '08.

I see [Hillary] as orders of magnitude less "pandering" than, say, Edwards.

It's certainly true Hillary doesn't pander to working class folks like Democrats do. She could care less.

That what you mean?

Best, Terry

I know the answer. If Hillalry becomes president Fox News is going to go liberal and we are all going to get free cable and life is going to be all sugar plums and cakes.

Can't we put up the daggers and just appreciate that this action is a good thing for everyone who would like to see a change in the media coverage?

Murdoch didn't have a fundraiser for Hillary's presidential campaign, but her Senate one. He hasn't come close to endorsing her for the WH.

Actually, the "working class" isn't as stupid as many WLs like to claim. A while back Kevin Drum documented that in the reddest states, there is a dramatic difference in Dem voters vs GOP voters on income. As it's been for generations, the more wealthy are GOPers while the "working class" is significantly more likely to vote Dem.

Under Bill Clinton, more "working class" people were saving, sending their kids to college and seeing an increase in real income. You can go on saying that Clinton doesn't care about the "working class", but you're factually wrong. Incidentally, the "working class" was against the Iraq war long before the college educated, upper middle class folks. Just as they were ahead of the curve on Vietnam.

Facts suck for the "liberal narrative" just as much as the "conservative narrative". Go figure.

Facts suck for the "liberal narrative"

Actually we liberals love facts.

Want to tell us about why the DLC deplores talk of helping those that don't belong to the royal classes? Doesn't want none of that class warfare. Just do for the better folks. I am waiting.

Tennessee got a big liberal vote you think?

Best, Terry

"On July 20, 2007 - 4:03pm terryhallinan said:

"Actually, poll after poll shows Hillary doing quite well among working-class

"Bush did too.

"You remember the compassionate conservative.

"The DLC lingo divorces the Democratic Party from all but the upper classes."

Really? Keep reading --

"You have heard have you not of the "suffering middle class?" Some folks think the other bunch should be left to fend for themselves while the Clintons and Bushes care for themselves and their high class friends.

"That what you think?"

That must be why over 60 per cent supported Clinton during the fraudulent impeachment. Is it your contention that the middle class constitutes over 60 per cent of the electorate?

And Bill Clinton remains widely popular, despite your bigotry against reality.

That must be why over 60 per cent supported Clinton during the fraudulent impeachment.

If you are incapable of replying factually, why bother?

Hillary was not impeached. Bill was.

Bill Clinton was most fortunate in his choice of enemies. On top of that Bill Clinton ran one of the great propaganda machines of all time. From George Stephanopoulis' work on "bimbo eruptions" to the monolithic message of the day mouthed by every administration official in non-answer to questions, there has never been anything like it. Bush is stuck with ineffective old Rovian saws and hiding behind the bushes with claims of executive privilege that have exceeded any ever.

If you want to discuss Bill Clinton's crimes, just do so. If you would like others to marvel with you at the ability of the man to avoid responsibility for his record, I suppose you have many others who will be only too delighted to discuss blowjobs. Those could not have come as much of a surprise to Newt Gingrich who invented the claim that it was not sex.

Bill Clinton didn't run a criminal enterprise on the scale of Reagan and Nixon but he was surely better than even The Gipper at avoiding responsibility.

Historians claimed in the past that Ulysses S. Grant had the most corrupt administration of all. Grant remained phenomenally popular even while he as apologizing to the country as he left office of the transgressions that occurred. I invite you to look at old pictures of runner-up Harding Coolidge's funeral. The man was enormously popular as well.

What exactly do you think you have proved by writing of the popularity of Bill Clinton when addressing the very successful DLC mission of the Democrats into an auxillary of the Republican Party? What has that to do with Hillary Clinton's hijacking of the Democratic Party for her own benefit to the detriment of the mass of Democrats? Are war, corruption, privilege and power admired by you in Democrats as well as Republicans?

Best, Terry

What exactly do you think you have proved by writing of the popularity of Bill Clinton when addressing the very successful DLC mission of the Democrats into an auxillary of the Republican Party? What has that to do with Hillary Clinton's hijacking of the Democratic Party for her own benefit to the detriment of the mass of Democrats? Are war, corruption, privilege and power admired by you in Democrats as well as Republicans?

Ass: I am fed up with anti-elitist elitist twits such as you slinging mud based upon anti-elitist elitist horseshit. The fact is that everyone did better economically under Clinton; and nothing matters more in politics -- especially to the "working class" -- than the WALLET.

Want butter? Vote Democrat. Want guns? Vote Republican.

In addition, he co-opted balancing the budget, and left office with a surplus.

Let us know when you've been dealing with politics -- the art of the possible -- for more than a few weeks.

Actually, the Reagan administration is considered the most corrupt - 178 indictments with 59 convictions/pleas. Clinton administration officials indicted? 0.

As to Warren Harding's (and your proof is a photo from his funeral?) administration being the runner up, Harding doesn't begin to match the corruption of the Nixon administration, and lying us into a war, promoting torture, flaunting of the Geneva convention, leaving the justice dept. in tatters, revealing the name of a covert CIA operative, just to name a few, seems alot worse than a blowjob.

Hmmm...let's see; getting over 3000 soldiers killed, countless Iraqis, running deficits in the trillions, spending over half the discretionary budget on defense, making us the most hated country in the world - lying about a blow job. Yes, I can see why you would find them morally equivalent.

As to "running one of the most successful propaganda machines of all time", well, considering the press's to the death gotcha writing of the Clinton era while ginning up stories like Whitewater, (nothing there) and the Arkansas state troopers stories, (nothing there, folks, move along) to the Clinton murder list, (yeah, right) the Paula Jones civil suit (dismissed, lack of merit) and a 100 million dollar special prosecutor investigation which resulted in - nothing - I'd say if he did have a propaganda machine, it was not only not the best of all time, but actually the worst any president has ever had, of all time.

Actually, the Reagan administration is considered the most corrupt

By you? By who?

Contemporary history is - well - not history.

From Wikipedia:

Due to multiple scandals involving others in his administration, Harding is ranked by most scholars as the worst President ever to serve.

That's rather comical actually. Could use a rewrite for sure but if you never heard of Teapot Dome, you should have a case for malpractice against your history teachers.

George Bush has far exceeded Warren Harding in badness though Bush perhaps didn't bonk a lady in the White House broom closet with the Secret Service standing watch for Laura. There were no pictures, I don't suppose, of Warren in action in the broom closet and probably are no pictures of the cowboys on horseback in Wyoming doffing their Stetsons at the train with the corpse of the beloved president carrying the fine fellow back to Washington.

Takes time for historians to put matters in perspective.

Each of the presidents following Nixon, after the unlamented interregnum of Gerald Ford, managed somehow to do worse than that hateful, screwed-up bigot. Life can be very strange.

Say, did you really believe that Clinton was a serial killer or was that just some hokey color you wanted to throw in? OTOH the Clintons skated on their corrupt land scam just as Bush did on his fine business dealings to the detriment of the country and despite denials from loving advocates. Denial is not a river in Egypt. It is a tool of ignorance.

Best, Terry

The worst president to serve is a far different claim than the most corrupt. If Wikipedia is your source...

Uh, Bev, did you fail to notice that I criticized that rather obtuse classification?

You asked for some backup regarding Harding's administration. I gave it to you from a handy reference, such as it is.

Any history book I have read classified Harding's administration as second only to Grant's in the corruption business.

News to you is it?

To claim that all Presidents did worse after Nixon, is delusiona

Not only is your punctuation illogical so is your uncomprehending response.

Nixon ended the cold war. He initiated a negative income tax that I noticed Barack Obama offered in expanded form as a handy weapon in his arsenal against poverty.

Nixon's War on Cancer beats the hell out of Bush's War on Terror and is beginning to pay handsome dividends.

None of that makes Nixon more than the ugly, hateful bigot he was but the trend afterwards wasn't helpful.

Jimmy Carter came in promising to fix government with his ludicrous zero defects program and end empire building with sunset laws. All ended up as the usual farce. All he accomplished was to downgrade government service and create much of the inefficiency we see today. His economic adventurism led to the "malaise" that somehow Carter wasn't responsible and eventually to monetarism that has had a large hand in soaring debt and widening gulfs between rich and poor. He toasted Marcos and sheltered the Shah while proclaiming the value of human rights. carter is an exemplary ex-president. If only he had not had to be president first.

Then we got Reagan and his successors. You liked them? You are fond of hard scrabble for workers and patronage for patrons? Takes all kinds I suppose.

I frankly never dreamed I would look back fondly on the Nixon years.

Quite frankly, I don't think you know anything at all about the Whitewater land investment

Want to explain this scam to all of us so we will understand why the Clintons aren't crooks? Do tell us about the blizzard of cattle future trades with a crooked broker that Hillary made on her very first day too. That will be wonderfully entertaining.

Then we can get into why you think war and occupation under Hillary will be mighty fine. I frankly don't think much of the corrupt conservatives you think are fine leaders but I suppose that's just me.

Best, Terry

This is the most confused and incomprehensible post you've written to date.

First of all, if you want to play grammar police, I'd be more than happy to oblige you.

Secondly, I didn't ask for any proof or "backup" as you call it, regarding the Harding administration. I merely pointed out that Wikipedia and informal surveys are not evidence of anything, nor are either reliable sources. "Any history book" you've read, that classifies Harding as the "worst president is again not proof or evidence. It is opinion. It also makes me wonder at the "history books" you read that all seem fixated on ranking the presidents with Harding dead last. You might want to expand your reading list beyond books that rate the presidents.

Naturally I blame Schlesinger for starting this nonsensical listing, which was nothing more than an informal survey with no protocols, for feeding this superficial need by some people to subsitute list making for scholarly research. It's just easier, I suppose, to quote some opinion poll rather than actually have to use the historical method to confirm a hypothesis or the truest explanation for one's self. (Which explains the popularity of wikipedia and the trend among teachers and professors to disallow it as a source for written papers.)

You're nostalgic for that cold war warrior, that great visionary who forsaw nothing but an end to the VN war by bombing Laos and Cambodia, who authorized the use of agent orange and indiscriminate bombings over Hanoi, while at home he was indiscriminately spying on his own fellow citizens along with the oppositions party, it sounds corrupt, but if that is your idea of nostalgia, the good old days when an administration was more adept at hiding corruption, than say, oh...the Reagan administration's 178 indictments and 59 actual convictions/pleas for malfeasence and misfeasance in office. Ah, yes, that longing for the "good ole' days" that never were - the great Nixon ending the cold war, was that before or after Reagan ordered the Soviets to tear down that wall and the Poles has led the most successful, peaceful revolution in the last `100 years - I won't even mention the Hungarians, the Austrians, the Finlanders or the Estonians who actually were taking down walls - literally.
And all achieved without resorting to violence and bloodshed, shock and awe provided by the American military and genocidal wars, like those, oh...I suppose in Cambodia or Laos.

I don't need to explain the cattle trading futures made over a year and a half, which netted her a tad under 50,000., while neither she nor Bill was in office. There was no mention whatsoever about a "crooked broker", although there was a broker who did make trades for her account which is perfectly legal in all fifty states. At the end of the year, the Clintons actually paid more than they should have on earnings because they failed to reduce the earnings by their losses. Another independent Examinor, Leo Melamed, the head of the Chicago Mercantile Exchange was asked to investigate these false rumours, and said in his report, "Nothing in these records appears to reflect any trading violations by Mrs. Clinton." There was no blizzard of trading on the first day - profits are tracked through the year and measured against losses in commodities trading, while she might have profited almost 60K on one day, on other days she lost as much if not more. As to the Whitewater fiasco. read Gene Lyon's book, "Fools for Scandal" - it might give you that different perspective you think all history needs.

What "corrupt conservatives" did I mention as being "mighty fine leaders"? I made no reference at all to any conservative as a "fine leader". You're projecting - you were the one who mentioned his nostalgia for the good old days of the selfless leader, Dick Nixon. Nowhere in the entire post did I suggest, imply, state or even allude to those presidents I would consider great presidents or those presidents I think were bad.

"And Bill Clinton remains widely popular, despite your bigotry against reality."
Someone posted, way up there.
As if "popularity" is interchangeable with "honest", "decent", "smart", "humane", "far thinking" , "empathetic".....you get the idea.
This is life and death on the mass scale, not "Teen Beat"

Um....Bill Clinton was a swine personally & politically. Im surprised no one noted he turned Ark. into an arms dump for the Contras,for cash, and his response to traditional Euro bloodletting was high altitude bombardment- indiscriminate as hell. No better than what was going on below, & a hell of a lot more destructive.

And all along, Hillary attached to him like a remora.

Now I get to hear about Clinton as "peace president" and NAFTA, the single most destructive act ever taken against honest working people, to the point its wrecked the entire useful- useful- US economy not listed at all.

An enemy of my enemy is not, perforce, my friend.
Thats Hillary Clinton & her selective, photoshoot "outrage".
And her nitwit claque of admirers....
Best wishes, Mutt