Well, I can't speak for others, but this athiest sure as hell doesn't want to claim him as one of our own. God, next thing you'll be telling me his gay, too, then I'll really have to slit my wrists. Tastefully, of course.

How else could he use Christians against themselves?

When winning is the only moral principle - not 'how you play the game' - it's consistent not with atheism per se, but with immorality.

Rove's actions have been inconsistent with morality by any sacred scripture, so it's no surprise that he's not a member of any established faith. But his actions in themselves are a choice to be immoral, something I've not seen in any atheist I've ever known.

He worships dishonesty and puts his faith in that. And as a Liarist, the man is obviously a perfect saint.

Kevin Hayden

Guess I will have to find a new club to join.

Think Regionally. Act Regionally

As if the atheists didn't have enough problems. But all is not lost. As long he's able to keep them in power, the Religious Right will hop into bed with him every night. I have no idea what they'll do there. I don't speculate on what goes on in the bedrooms of others.

It's funny that you should mention about Karl Rove being gay in addition to being an atheist. He may not be gay, but he certainly does hire a LOT of gay men to serve as his minions. Ken Mehlman is only the most obvious example. There are many others who work or have worked for him. Some might use the term self-loathing homosexuals, but I would not be so presumptuous. :)

When they come for him, there will be no one left to speak up

Well, I suppose if you 'are' god, then you don't need to be a "person of faith?"

Perhaps rove is the 'god' bush follows? Cuz he sure doesn't seem to follow the God of any definition known to the world's religions. Unless you count a 'false god.'

Since rove is so good at corruptng "christians," how could he possibly have faith anyway?

It's hard to believe in a loving God when Karl Rove is still doing his dirty work and getting away with it.

*coughJeffGannoncough*

I would like to reiterate something I have tried to spell out in my other ramblings:

Rove and all of his tricks boil down to basically a phone prank.
He thinks you are stupid and gullible and prey to his mind-manipulation (and many lefties think so too)...
But really, it is just human nature. You have no idea if your garage is really on fire when Karl Kalls. If you do carry Prince Albert in a can, and Karl Kalls, are you an idiot for having it on the self, or having a garage you cannot see from the phone jack?

No. He knows how to do tricks where you are defenseless for a moment. That's why he loves last minute ratfu**ing...there is no time to check out the story, call in some sources.

Like the boy who cried wolf, when Karl Kries your garage is on fire for the third time or lights a bag of dogpoo on your stoop...most of us will not be fooled again. If it were not for a complicit press and some rather bloodthirsty cover-ups and trial tampering NOBODY would have been fooled again by 2004.

True, with all the UnHoly forces of the Federal Govt, Federalist Society, Republican Lawyers, RNC, and Republican operatives everywhere....his arsenal has grown bigger and his pranks effect millions instead of thousands....and have now even perverted our justice, legal, and political landscape: his tricks are still just the same 3rd grade crap. It is not genius. It is not intelligence. It is not understanding human nature or any other ability. What it is - someone with an eye for weakness. Unseen chinks. Backdoor trickery(never strength or physical courage or man-to-man confrontation). If we cannot defeat the King of Prank Kalls then we are no true nation and we have lost ALL of our moral anchors.

Think Regionally. Act Regionally

This is the same Karl Rove that drives a Jaguar XJ car, claiming that it is American (because British-based Jaguar is owned by Ford).

Not because it is right, but because it is NOT ILLEGAL.

Does anyone really believe anything that either Christopher Hitchens or Karl Rove says?

Hitchens says Rove answered "honestly." Really?

Karl Rove?

Even so, knowing Hitchens is an "Honorary Associate" of the National Secular Society, might this not be a case of Rove telling Hitchens what he wants to hear?

A little chummy, chummy bonding, right before, you know, Rove outs a CIA agent or something...

(I've just spent way more brain power than either of these two deserve...) 

Our obligation is to define the liberty of all, not to mandate our own moral code. -- SCOTUS that was...

I don't think conservative Christians use the bible as a guidepost but as a battering ram to harm people they don't like. To those who are inclined to be manipulative and destructive, the bible offers a wealth of opportunities.

Bush doesn't believe Christ rose from the dead anymore than I do - nor does Robertson, Falwell, or any of those clowns. Right on down to conservative preacher with the corner lot - what they believe is that Christianity is a tool to exalt oneself and to bully others.

I think we should stop referring to anyone who is conservative as a person of faith. They have none so far as I can detect.

Oops, forgot I was an athiest, there. I swear to... to... well, dammit, you get the idea.

There is no connection between faith and morality. Acting morally is a willfull choice, as both selfless and selfish impulses are hardwired into our brains. Believers and non-believers alike have demonstrated remarkable capacities for morality and immorality throughout history... often the same people demonstrating both.

So unless you believe GWB's God-fearing makes him a good person, please do not conclude that Rove's baseness is in any way connected to his purported lack of faith.

His sexuality is not my business, but Gannon only got into the Whitehouse because he was blackmailing someone. My belief is that it was Fleisher.

That's why he can bark at Sheryl Crow when she gently lays her hand on his forarm.

He coulda gone on the road with Dick and Perry...and been perfectly contented, no doubt.

"If you talk about it, even the simplest thing becomes complex and incomprehensible." -Herman Hesse

This is actually old news (not the Hitchens part, but that Rove is an atheist). It was detailed last year in the book "The Architect" by James Moore and Wayne Slater, which you'll recall made headlines for a bit last year with the fact that Rove's stepfather is gay.

What happens if you aren't paying enough attention to notice what types of fruit the tree is bearing?

I think that's where most conservative Christians are with regard to the Bush/Cheney administration.

naugiedoggie: "It's possible to be an atheist and honest, just harder."

I strongly disagree. Please explain your position further.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_Wing_Authoritarianism#Connection_with_Social_Dominance_Orientation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_dominance_orientation

The context of a Right Wing Authoritarian personality, with a Social Dominance Orientation, seems a better fit. See also Robert Altemeyer's work.

http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/

Although to be fair, as far as I know, Karl Rove is no racist (and neither is GWB) or anti-semite.

Just an ambitious, somewhat amoral, guy, with a very conservative value system.

I may not be 100% correct about this, but I've always been under the impression, based on Moore & Slater's books, The Brain, and The Architect, that Karl Rove's father is an openly gay man, living in San Francisco.

Now, in the normal scheme of things, the correct response to this should be "so what?" But considering how he's fanned the flames of hate and bigotry for quite successful political and electoral gain, this gives pause for thought.

I thnk Altenmeyer's work casts more light on the followers of the movement than Karl Rove, per se. I see NOTHING about Karl Rove that is conservative. If Karl Rove thinks you are a womanizer, he will get you a prostitute. If he thinks you're a junky, he will offer you Smack. If he thinks you're an alcoholic, he'll give you single malt scotch. If he thinks you're a bible thumper, he'll cry "Praise Jesus!" and pick your pocket.

This has nothing to do with limited government, and everything to do with leveraging someones vulnerabilities. It's about selling the sizzle, not the steak. That ain't conservative.

"If you talk about it, even the simplest thing becomes complex and incomprehensible." -Herman Hesse

Amen.

Dare we hope that a prison conversion is in his future?

If you don't think some Christians are willing and able to use Christians against other Christians, you haven't been paying attention. Ditto Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Pagans, agnostics, atheists, whoever.

There's a long, long history of in-fighting within faiths, within sects of faiths, within specific houses, and so on, and there never seems to be any lack of people willing to take advantage of that for personal gain.

Mm hmm, kinda like a certain high-level Republican with a lesbian daughter who also is more than happy to whip up the flames of anti-gay hate if it will further his political purposes.

Come to think of it, his lesbian daughter is more than happy to go along with it, too.

Too bad we can't get the Evangelical Christians to realize they
have made a pact with the devil. It is hard to understand people who oppose stem cell research on the grounds that it destroys life, but who have no problem with the death penalty or the brutal war in Iraq, and who oppose gun control. Oh well!

I'm with Victor on this one.

I don't see how people who believe in God or the Easter Bunny have any more claim to being honest. In fact, I think they have much less of one as they haven't challenged whether that belief is honest in and of itself. They aren't adhering to *their* sense of morality, rather to one that's been passed down by others. That's dishonest on its face.

If I lie, I have no means to have that sin absolved through some ceremony. Praying won't make it go away. Instead it impacts my relationship with the people around me and that has to be corrected through hard work. I have no crutch to fall back on to ask forgiveness. I have to earn it. I've seen plenty of people of faith lie like I've never thought possible before and be forgiven with a wave of a hand and a show of a cross. And they return immediately to their old ways expecting the same treatment again. It's astonishing.

Being a dishonest atheist is a very painful thing and serves as an enormous incentive to be honest.

I too would like to know how faith makes one more honest.

Why do we who do not believe in god require a label? I don't recall needing a label for people who don't believe in Santa Claus.

When I want to put a label on Karl Rove the word criminal comes to mind.

I've never doubted he's an atheist. More specifically he's a Social Darwinian Nihilist. i.e. He believes in nothing, except power.

I always suspected he was so adept at manipulation and exploitation of the faithful, so wholly and remorselessly, precisely because he utterly lacks compassion or faith.

But that's really a matter of conscience more than religion. Both theists and atheists have to choose between more altruistic and enlightened beliefs, or predatory instincts which glorify power and selfishness.

One has to believe in something.

On one hand there is conscience/altruism, whether it's the good of the species and the beauty of evolution which evolved empathy, and where our deeds and accomplishments are eternal through the continued prosperity of all life; or a whether one believes in a compassionate redeeming god who rewards good for eternity in heaven. Either path towards conscience/altruism, faith or reason, produces much the same outlook on life. A person who does good for others believing in some form of "karma" is a primary example of the conscience/altruism paradigm.

On the other hand is nihilism/greed, basically the simplistic and devolved logic of predators and reptiles, like snakes for example. The belief that only the here and now matters, there is no reason for compassion or altruism, and that one should grab all one can in the most ruthless predatory manner. Nihilists may be atheistic Social Darwinians (a terrible misnomer that nature abhors) or Religious Crusaders exploiting faith to glorify themselves and seize treasure. Cannibals and sociopaths are primary examples of the nihilist/predator paradigm.

Biology may have something to do with it. Certainly upbringing has a lot to do with it.
When people are thrust into power or seek power, their beliefs tend to be crystallized further through actions.

In Rove's case, he's the end product of a ruthless ideology he was predisposed to, which was reinforced during his position in the college Republicans, then he was recognized for his talent and ruthlessness and taken under the wing of HW Bush, and from there he knew he'd rise to power so long as he was willing to be more ruthless than the next guy. His whole career going back to the college Republicans has been marked by ruthlessness and Machiavellian tendencies.

The next answer in the interview is also interesting:

I think it’s false to say that the president acts as if he believes he has God’s instructions. Compared to Jimmy Carter, he’s nowhere. He’s a Methodist, having joined his wife’s church in the end. He also claims that Jesus got him off the demon drink. He doesn’t believe it. His wife said, “If you don’t stop, I’m leaving and I’m taking the kids.” You can say that you got help from Jesus if you want, but that’s just a polite way of putting it in Texas.

DC Drinking Liberally

He worships power, and will do anything for it and do anything to destroy those who stand in his way. There are people like that operating in all levels of society. Some of them do disguise themselves with the language of religious discourse and some with the language of secular morality because these are the standard discourses that everyone around them uses and understands, but I don't think they really have any loyalty except to themselves. Some on this thread identifies them as sociopaths or psychopaths, and I think that's correct.

In any case, the religious conservatives have been taken for a ride.

Yeah, that part doesn't fit him (or many others, think about ruthless criminal masterminds), but I don't think you have to have all of the criteria in order to be diagnosed.

There are numerous sources contradicting this claim.

"I think it’s false to say that the president acts as if he believes he has God’s instructions."

One need only observe Rove’s behavior to determine where he stands on matters of faith. He, like far too many who actually claim a belief in the Deity, is obviously not a keeper of either the first or of second covenants. I suspect the Turd Blossom has more in common with Marlowe's Doctor Faustus.

Whilst men are linked together, they easily and speedily communicate the alarm of any evil design. They are enabled to fathom it with common counsel, and to oppose it with united strength. Whereas, when they lie dispersed, without concert, order, or discipline, communication is uncertain, counsel difficult, and resistance impracticable. Where men are not acquainted with each other’s principles, nor experienced in each other’s talents, nor at all practiced in their mutual habitudes and dispositions by joint efforts in business; no personal confidence, no friendship, no common interest, subsisting among them; it is evidently impossible that they can act a public part with uniformity, perseverance, or efficacy. In a connection, the most inconsiderable man, by adding to the weight of the whole, has his value, and his use; out of it, the greatest talents are wholly unserviceable to the public. No man, who is not inflamed by vain-glory into enthusiasm, can flatter himself that his single, unsupported, desultory, unsystematic endeavors, are of power to defeat the subtle designs and united cabals of ambitious citizens. When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.

Edmund Burke

Whenever two people meet, there are really six people present. There is each man as he sees himself, each man as the other person sees him, and each man as he really is.

William James

See my post above about Right Wing Authoritarians and Social Dominance Orientation.

Rove is, I think, an example of the latter, working in the context of the former.

People aren't so stupid.

They wanted to be part of such a church, they *are* part of such a church.

I don't think we can call people stupid or misled. Maybe about Iraq, but that was more general. Americans who supported Bush and Rove wanted to believe what they believed.

It's a bit like liberals refusing to believe that JFK sponsored secret wars.

The silence coming from the Religionists on this is deafening. SSDD - IOKIYAR.

PS To be more concise:

Machiavelli was the Stephen Colbert of his day, except, happily, Stephen's not in jail or exile...

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