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Quote Of The Day
“Giuliani gets a zero-zero. He wasn’t willing to risk his life for his country, and he has no relevant experience that’s in any way useful to be commander-in-chief. He hosted the U.N. and had a large police force.”
-- Wesley Clark, quoted by New York magazine describing Rudy's failure to serve in Vietnam and his complete lack of foreign policy experience.
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Great quote General. Off topic, but what's up with Rasmussen's daily poll giving Dear Leader 38-40 approval which seems way out of line with other polls which have him from the low to mid 30's????
April 16, 2007 2:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
Nasty quote. Just nasty. Love it, Wes.
April 16, 2007 2:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Clark's statement clarifies for me what it is that's always bothered me about him. To claim that only a combat vet or military bureaucreat is qualified to be president is as brainless and toxic as anything the rightwing noise machine comes up with. One of America's founding principles was civilian control of the military.
By Clark's standard, FDR, LBJ, Kennedy, Carter, Clinton, were not qualified for the White House, while the likes of Oliver North and McCain are. Clark has stooped to the level of discourse we expect from Bill Oreilly. I'm glad his presidential hopes appear to be permanently derailed.
April 16, 2007 2:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
But.. but.. but.. wait a minute, wasn't it Rudy & his security firm that vetted Bernie Kerik? Oh, that's right, that didn't work out did, it?
Repetition does not tranform a lie into a truth. FDR
April 16, 2007 2:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't think he was claiming that only a vet could be commander in chief--I think he was emphasizing that Rudy's claim about experience is pretty silly, once you think carefully about it.
But who, outside of political obsessives, is going to think about it? Not the national media, where Rudy is "America's mayor."
As for the off-topic question: Rasmussen's numbers have consistently been higher than national polls--for years, at this point. This is the lowest (at 38% approval) I've ever seen Rasmussen numbers. If you go under 40 in Rasmussen, you really really stink.
April 16, 2007 2:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Clark used "useful" as the operative word...
Careful it is you that is being black and white, not Clark.
April 16, 2007 2:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
It is a totally appropriate comment. Clark is using particularly sharp language in this case to pierce through this ridiculous media narrative that Guiliani has impeccable national security credentials.
April 16, 2007 2:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Jimmy Carter served in the USN. As far as the Kennedy's - John ( was a war hero)Robert & Teddy all served. I truly don't believe Gen. Clark believes that serving in the military is required criteria to run for POTUS - by any means. He voted for Clinton. Giuliani talks tough though and it is high time to disassemble that bs.
Repetition does not tranform a lie into a truth. FDR
April 16, 2007 2:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
And btw - LBJ served, too.
Repetition does not tranform a lie into a truth. FDR
April 16, 2007 3:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Actually, FDR was secretary of the Navy, LBJ was in the military, as was Kennedy and Carter.
But I think you unfortunately miss the point of Clark's quote. The media has given him a free pass on his "strong on security" credentials. He has no more real experience than does Obama or Edwards. Clark is the first to point it out and Obama, Edwards and Clinton should be thankful that someone actually is. The media sure isn't.
April 16, 2007 3:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hey Dave W: Do you know any history at all? Kennedy was a captin in the Navy during WWII, (does "PT-109" ring any bells?), saved his PT crew and was a legit war hero. Carter served as an officer in the Navy. FDR was Assistant Secretary of the Navy under Wilson during WWI. Clinton being not a draft-dodger but a dishonest draft dodger did indeed hurt his ability to be Commander-in-Chief, at least initially. And LBJ's lack of military experience (he was exempted, being a Congressman but volunteered to serve in the Reserves, where he made some contributions) cost us dearly. Remember Vietnam, Dave?
The real issue, and Clark knows it and does not disrespect it, is the chickenhawk syndrome - those who are willing to put others but not themselves in harms way, and are dishonest about their own stances on wars when their time to serve was at hand.
And Clark would stand a better chance of gaining 270 Electoral votes than our two current front runners.
April 16, 2007 3:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
FRC Rasmussen has had Bush in the high 30's even up as high as 42 for months.
April 16, 2007 3:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't care what anybody says Guiliani looks better in a dress than Clark any day.
April 16, 2007 3:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Damn--
Pretty gangsta for Wes Clark, and very true. Giuliani's supposed chief asset, national security strength, is one where he has little experience.
April 16, 2007 4:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
"To claim that only a combat vet or military bureaucreat is qualified to be president..."
Clark didn't say that. Suggest you read the quote again.
FYI, Kennedy was a combat veteran, FDR had been an official in the Navy department during WW I, and Carter of course was a Navy commander.
Get some facts and read more carefully before you pop off. Clark's okay.
April 16, 2007 4:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Rudy Giuliani is the fucking idiot who blew up his own emergency command center. He placed the center in a high-rise building against the advice of the NYFD.
April 16, 2007 5:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
DaveW - Clark's comment was in response to Rudy claiming that he had more experience on terrorism and the war in Iraq than anyone running for president. Clark responded with the appropriate "don't mince words" attitude that Clark supporters like myself have come to expect and admire.
And, as others have pointed out, your knowledge of history is sorely lacking regarding the military service of former presidents. As such, I think it's you who has stooped to Bill O'Reilly's level of discourse, i.e. saying whatever you feel like without regard as to whether there's any facts to back it up or not.
April 16, 2007 6:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
gqm, you say,
"The media has given him a free pass on his "strong on security" credentials. He has no more real experience than does Obama or Edwards."
I agree with your first sentence, the MSM has thus far given Rudy a complete pass on his complete lack of foriegn policy experience.
I strongly disagree with your assertion that Edwards and Obama are in the same category as Rudy. Both Edwards and Obama have served on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee which gives them both a strong leg up on Rudy.
In addition, Obama graduated Magna Cum Laude from Columbia with a major in International Affairs and a minor in Economics. I think this academic background at one of the top IA programs in the country is very relevant. It means that Obama has a knowledge base from which to approach current international problems and a basic understanding of diplomacy.
April 16, 2007 7:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
In general, I think Clark is an OK guy, and I would be happy to have him as a Veep for Obama or Edwards. However, I fail to understand his incredibly loyal following in the netroots.
I confess I have a very hard time forgiving Clark for the BS smear job that he hired Chris Lehane to perform on Howard Dean in the months leading up to the Iowa caucuses. For those who are not familiar with the story, Chris Lehane was the Clinton's top opposition research guy. He was working for Clark in 2004. Lehane planted a whole series of negative stories about Dean in the press in the late fall of 2003. Lehane's handiwork along with Gephardt's Kamikazee ad campaign played an integral part in Dean's rapid decline in Iowa. If Clark is such an honorable, decent guy, why did he stoop to such tactics?
April 16, 2007 8:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
upper left corner, I am baffled by your accusation that General Clark had something to do with Dr. Dean's problems in Iowa; its the first time I have heard such, and I am certain that General Clark had nothing to do with it.
I cannot speak for Mr. Lehane, but I am willing to do some research on this matter. Shall we be in touch 'privately' via the Cafe? If so, please send me an e-mail.
Thanks.
elleng
April 16, 2007 9:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
What sort of negative stories did Chris Lehane ''plant'' in the press?
I'm not saying he didn't encourage a tough approach to Dean among his media contacts, but was it anything truly misleading, personal etc?
For what it's worth, I liked Dean, saw him speak in August '03, and talked up his candidacy among friends. But I was also sympathetic to a lot that Clark was saying as a candidate, and I can see how they might have been rivals then for some of the same activists' support. I'm just curious what you heard/read.
April 16, 2007 10:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
With statements like this, if Clark does not run it will be my pleasure to derail the Democratic party.. permanently.
This party that so maddeningly hates all things military will not continue to exist in the country.
This party that finally has someone standing and fighting FOR them only to be sniped by obnoxious comments such as your own.. which come from your own internal anxieties about why whoever you want to vote for is GOING TO LOSE.
So keep at it.. Attack Wes Clark all you like. You're only killing yourself. Guaranteed.
April 17, 2007 8:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
Uh and you know this how?
April 17, 2007 9:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
elleng,
Thanks for responding and for not immediately flaming me. I know it can be very painful to hear that someone you respect may have acted in ways that are not consistent with your view of them. I see no reason not to discuss this matter in the open.
The source for my earlier post was a story in Atlantic Monthly titled "Playing Dirty" published in June of 2004. The following is an excerpt. I highly recommend you read the entire story. It appears very credible but appearances can be deceiving,
"Democrats may not have been successful using research against Bush, but they have fared much better deploying it against each other. One prominent Democrat has already fallen victim this year—though the attack was orchestrated within his own party. By last fall Howard Dean had achieved the unlikely status of front-runner in the crowded race for the Democratic nomination. Yet for all his popularity, the public knew little about him. He had built a following almost overnight, mainly because of his strident opposition to the Iraq War and a visceral anger toward the Bush Administration that other candidates were thought to lack. By the time Gore endorsed him, on December 9, Dean's victory in the upcoming primaries seemed assured.
That same week Ben Holzer, the research director for General Wesley Clark's campaign, arrived with Lehane, who was then working for Clark, in Washington, D.C., for a series of visits to the major television networks, newspapers, and newsmagazines. They toted a three-ring binder that contributed as much as anything else to Dean's rapid demise. The Clark campaign had classified the stories in it as singles, doubles, triples, or home runs, based on the damage they were expected to inflict. Holzer and Lehane offered producers and reporters exclusives on many of these stories with the proviso that if they were not used quickly, they would be handed to a rival. In the hypercompetitive world of political journalism this pretty much guaranteed swift airing or publication."
I remember when the avalanche of negative stories and commentary began falling out of the sky in December 2003. I was an avid Dean supporter, I was Googling Dean every day and reading every bit of news about him. At the time, I told my wife we were watching a slow motion lynching. When this Atlantic article came out it made a huge impact on me. I really, really don't like it when Dems act like Karl Rove. It is a loosing strategy in the long run.
If you, or anyone else, has any information that questions the validity of this Atlantic story I am very open to hearing other views.
April 17, 2007 9:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
Please see my response to elleng above.
April 17, 2007 9:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks, upper left; I'll get back to you here. Have been on the road.
April 17, 2007 8:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Dean's demise was his own supporters who swamped our state in their orange caps and left us feeling invaded by mutant candy corn.
April 17, 2007 10:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Upper left, I've done some looking and have a bit of info. But before I get to it, I'd like to invite you and everyone to visit securingamerica dot com, where many spend a lot of time looking into stuff like this AND holding eachother's hands, wishing for the President our grandparents promised us.
I looked at the Atlantic, cited below, as you suggested, a lengthy article discussing numerous examples of both parties 'playing dirty,' as they called it. I don't like any of this stuff, which is one reason that I've been supporting General Clark since 2003.
I'll try to summarize the 6 matters mentioned in the article as raised by Lehane etc. against Governor Dean. Sorry for the length:
First, '[o]n December 4 the Boston Herald reported that although Dean cited the privacy of others in his refusal to release his gubernatorial papers, he had made public documents identifying individuals suffering from depression and Alzheimer's. This led to later disclosures of constituents who were HIV positive.'
2. AP reported that property taxes had risen sharply in Vermont during Governor Dean's term, tho Dean often blamed Bush's tax cuts for rising taxes.
3. 'The Boston Globe reported that Dean had signed legislation providing tax breaks to Bermuda-based insurance companies. Just a day earlier Dean had delivered a speech criticizing companies that dodge taxes by incorporating in Bermuda.'
4. 'Associated Press reported that although Dean had criticized Bush for giving unnecessary tax breaks to large corporations, he had signed legislation that conceded more than $80 million to such firms.'
5. 'Associated Press reported that although Dean had attacked Bush for weakness on homeland security, during his time as governor he was warned repeatedly about lax security at the Vermont Yankee nuclear plant, which received the worst security rating of all the nation's 103 reactors from the Nuclear Regulatory Commission.'
6. 'On January 11 a 1998 Associated Press story the Clark campaign had disseminated about the absence of minorities in Dean's cabinet became national news when Al Sharpton repeated the charge during a debate.'
The first thing I'd like to say is WHATEVER WOULD WE DO WITHOUT AP??? Might we learn some relavent, timely things?
The cited matters are all matters of public record which could have been discovered by the media with a little research on their own, in my opinion. They also appear to me to have been rather trivial, and to be expected in the course of a campaign and a governor's term. I absolutely do not sanction 'smears' such as those of the swift boaters, but this stuff is not that, in my opinion, especially if it is true. And I do not question the validity of these particular matters.
Upper left, I have recently learned of another bunch of stuff related to Governor Dean's problems in Iowa, which in my opinion is much more damaging to American voters, and Democrats in particular. I'll cite it here, and urge everyone to read it.
'Immortalized as the reason for the capsize of Dean’s campaign is his famous scream after losing the primary in Iowa. The role the incident played reveals a great deal about how our media works, a topic to which we will return. Putting that aside for a moment, it is instructive to see how the Democratic Party dealt with him apart from the issue. The moves of the DLC reveal a great deal about how tight the control over the party is and how narrow the range of acceptable debate can be. The minimization of this so-called debate also reveals how the Democrats and their liberal cohorts enabled George W. Bush to win his reelection effort.
Howard Dean’s campaign first took on water after Al Gore endorsed Dean for president on December 9, 2003. Hailed by many in the mainstream press as a huge boost to Dean’s bid, the endorsement came at the same exact moment Democratic insiders were meeting to discuss how to sink his advances. For they knew he was a potential threat to the Clinton Democrats.
Theories of why Gore endorsed Dean spread like fire through the media. As political commentator Adam Nagourney told Gwen Ifill on PBS’s Newshour on the day of the endorsement: “One [theory] is that what is going on here is a proxy war between the Clintons and the Gores over the future of the Democratic Party. I think there is an element of truth to that. I don't think we want to exaggerate that.”
He was right. The war had begun. Verbal bombs dropped -- with one target in sight: the future of the Democratic Party. Dean was out for establishment blood, and Gore gladly went along for the ride. “Howard Dean was assassinated in broad daylight. Unlike Kennedy's ‘grassy knoll,’ Dean's killers are not hiding -- it was the Democratic Party itself, and more specifically the Democratic Leadership Council, that successfully went after and sabotaged his candidacy … The DLC reacted with fury to [Dean] … going all out to torpedo his momentum,” Naeem Mohaiemen correctly opined on Alternet.org following Dean’s presidential death.
“Although Democratic nominees soon piled on the ‘bash Dean’ bandwagon, earlier attacks were carried out by DLC operatives. There was even the smell of scandal when two top Democratic candidates were found sharing information about Dean in an attempt to slow him down.”
“But the great myth of the current [Howard Dean] cycle,” DLC leaders Al From and Bruce Reed wrote in a May 15, 2003 memo, “is the misguided notion that the hopes and dreams of activists represent the heart and soul of the Democratic Party … What activists like Dean call the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party is an aberration: the McGovern-Mondale wing, defined principally by weakness abroad and elitist, interest-group liberalism at home.”
No doubt it was scandalous. But there was more to the drama than Dick Gephardt and John Kerry passing notes under the table and the DLC crying foul. In fact, Democratic insiders with deep ties to the DLC began funding campaign ads against Dean, hoping to bring his campaign to a screeching halt.'
>>>> Read on
http://www.counterbias.com/561.html
I certainly can't vouch for anything stated above, but some of it makes sense to me given my developing views of the candidates and the party. I'm VERY happy that Governor Dean is DNC chair, and I look forward to a prosperous future for We the People.
Upper left, thanks for the opportunity to explain. And I hope that you and others will check General Clark out at securingamerica dot com.
Sorry about the length.
elleng
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200406/green
April 18, 2007 2:42 AM | Reply | Permalink