the notion that one man can love another man runs counter to the military's training that it's ok for one man to hate another.

pace reminds of the silly william bennet who fell from grace after people noticed that he didn't follow his own handbook of ethics!

For more on this go to website and click away to many good documents.

As a Doc I am especially upset that the military still believes homosexuality is an illness despite strong protest from the American Psychiatric Association(APA) who themselves are not the model of tolerance and compassion.

Boy do we still have a way to go in this formerly great nation?

Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton,Pa

As a Doc I am especially upset that the military still believes homosexuality is an illness

"ILLNESS"? HARUMPH! I agree with the right wing Christians, homosexuality is a CHOICE.

Why, at birth, when I was handed my FORM # 146, "THE SEXUAL IDENTITY OPTION", I borrowed the doctor's pen and checked the BOX marked "HETEROSEXUAL."

Pace conflates two distinct issues, when he implied homosexual character is equivalent to adultery or fraternization.

It is true that personal-relation tensions are disruptive, but how can be this be equivalent to non-adulterous, non-fraternizing, personal relations?

It's a sad thing that the US military, which desegragated before the country, is so backward on this issue.

One more point on this. Brownback writes: "The question is whether personal moral beliefs should disqualify an individual from positions of leadership in the U.S. military? We think not."

And yet if a soldier has the personal moral belief that they are homosexual and that it's okay, Brownback thinks they should be drummed out of service?

This dude's a simpleton.

thosethingswesay.blogspot.com

Well, eating lobster would totally mess up unit cohesion. I mean, you have to keep them alive until you boil them, you have to make the butter sauce, you have to crack their shells open. Who'd have time to fight?

thosethingswesay.blogspot.com

I'm not so sure. Surf and turf is traditional at the midpoint of a submarine patrol, and they may stick more in the freezer.

Submarine unit cohesion has other challenges, such as finding out one of your shipmates likes to sleep with the windows open.

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]

It is noteworthy that TPMcafe is so intolerant of dissenting views on the topic of homosexuality that posters no longer comment on Pace's viewpoint, if they agree with Brownback.

This results in incestous amplification on the topic.

Lets see, I'd ask Brownback;

Out of the 1,769 moral standards I know of, must I abide by them all in order to be considered "moral"?

But wait, 200 million Americans have 200 million different interpretations of the 1,769 moral standards. And that's just the Christians.

I have yet to get to the other 100 million; Jews, Buddhists, Shintos, Rastafarians, Hindus and Atheists.

I find all this hoopla over this issue so ridiculous! I am not surprised or offended by what Gen. Pace said. In fact I applaud him for speaking his mind instead of being so pre-occupied with being politically correct. why should he turn in his moral beliefs on some silly account of being politically correct?

If you want to take issue with anything then take issue with what christianity teaches, Pace is merely restating his belief based on what his faith teaches. But I doubt, anyone here has the courage to do so....................its alot easier to attack the messenger, rather then the message.

The lobster in our K Rations was fully prepared as was the Shrimp Scampi in our Cs

Pace’s comments were grossly inappropriate. Such ignorant and inflammatory statements regarding some of the courageous troops that are serving and sacrificing under his command are reprehensible. He has lost the respect and confidence of many and he should resign.

As for Hillary, the waffling on the immorality of gays and the “I’ve got big balls” on Iraq has sealed the deal for me (for Obama).

The country does need to move on from the Bush and Clinton dynasties. They do share a sense of entitlement and arrogance that we could all do without.

While I am thoroughly irritated with Pace's remarks, I see your "research" is as accurate as usual, given Pace wasn't involved with the Middle East or overall US command in 2003. You do know that's when the invasion took place?

I can think of hundreds of people less credible than Pace.
--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]

Howard,

It is good to hear from you.

How is General Pace not involved?

“Pace had previously served as Vice Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff from October 1, 2001 to August 12, 2005, the sixteenth officer to hold that position. In the absence of the Chairman, the Vice Chairman presides over the meetings of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. He may also perform such duties as the Chairman may prescribe.”

“their primary responsibility (joint chiefs of staff) is to ensure the readiness of their respective military services. The Joint Chiefs of Staff also act in an advisory military capacity for the President of the United States and the Secretary of Defense. In addition, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff acts as the chief military advisor to the President and the Secretary of Defense.”

Duplicate

Howard I'm deaf, I kept hearing a b as in Booya, or to much stuttering on Mad Money BaBaBaBab ooya

I've heard of gays wearing leather.

HC wrote:
I must say I am rather fascinated with the way the shower keeps getting brought up; it makes it sound like everyone in the military spends as much time in that water as the SEALs and
submariners.

Thats funny,
But how many men are in the shower? Is it like the locker rooms at school or communal. Would you still not want to drop the soap?

What about land based troops. Is it a communal environment multiple people showering at the same time. No privacy.

As to the Military = murder. I thought I read an earlir post about hypocrisy by Christians. It might have been another post.

What is the standard for determining what is an illness or a disordered situation medically versus "normal"? Are you saying there is no normal, or that normal is not itself either good or bad (as in the norm, or the usual case)? Are there circumstances in which homosexuality would be bad for the species from an evolutionary standpoint, or no? What circumstances?

What is the standard? Where does it come from? Is it a form of morality, or is it science? Or, is it social darwinism of a kind?

I am asking for your perspective. 

If you can dig up a copy in a library or used bookstore, try to find Patterns of Sexual Behavior by Ford & Beach (2nd Ed). They take a fascinating approach, looking at a behavior (and remember the 2nd edition is only 1951) in "civilized" society, then in "primitive" societies, then in primates, and then in...well, I shouldn't say "lower" species as my feline associate is nearby. You will find homosexual behavior in many societies and many species, with different societal aspects in the humans. In animals, it may be a form of dominance, although in some species, such as dogs, it appears to be something that feels good. I was amused, with the hit of March of the Penguins, about protests from some social conservatives because it accurately depicted homosexual bonding among the formally dressed birds.

That homosexuality, or other acts between heterosexuals, is not procreative is contra-survival only if there is a problem of reproduction. There are quite a few physiological remnants of primitive humanity that are counter-survival in modern society. Look at some of the tastes and behaviors that make fight-or-flight energy available, or protect in times of famine, but now lead to obesity.

I really am trying to get to your question. Another trend in sexual psychology is to differentiate disordered sadism and masochism from erotic pain. The distinction is that when giving or receiving pain is necessary for one's sexual functioning, and/or becomes an obsession, it is, indeed, a disorder. In a different context, the Catholic Church, some time ago, accepted oral sex as a form of arousal within marital, procreative sex. Previously, it had been flatly a sin.

As best as I can characterize it, the scientific standard is that when a sexual preference or act does not interfere with general functioning in one's society, it is within normal limits.

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]

HC wrote I would be more worried about someone kicking me in the butt if I dropped the soap than taking any other interest in it.

Well put, sometimes are fears are unwarranted. As long as the numbers are on my side?

Thanks for the dialogue, I'm hitting the sack, 90 degree weather saps the strength. Is your area being impacted by the Cold weather?

I am vaguely reminded of a Marine story, with an officer, of gender irrelevant, visiting a prostitute, of gender irrelevant. After completion, and the Marine started to leave, the partner said "But the money?"

"Oh no. A Marine never takes gratuities for services rendered."

Couple of inches of wet snow.

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]

I don't understand wingnuts who are out there thinking; "My air is poisoned and my job is gone and my son is scattered all over Iraq, but all those problems will take care of them selves if we set limits on gays."

I feel it's time to challenge the belief that gay behavior is immoral. Why does Pace feel it's immoral? I assume because the Bible "tells" him so. Well, the Bible used to "tell" people that slavery and discrimination against women were justified. Some people still use it (and/or the Koran) to justify discrimination against women.

Tom

Sam Brownback is reaching out to the most bigoted part of Bush's base because he knows they don't support Guiliani or McCain.

Tom

On March 17, 2007 - 12:53am hcberkowitz said:

I know a fair number of gay men. Most are neither macho nor effeminate. It may not be a scientific sample, but I do know more hyper-macho gay men than drag queens, and yes, I know both.

Announcer: And now to our second round of Jeopardy;

Alex Trabeck; Gays make poor soldiers, they're too effeminate.

Guest: "Who was Alexander the Great?"

Just a quick comment and a quick question.  Question first:

• I noted that throughout the letter Brownback used the plural "we".  Is he circulating this letter for other signatures, and if so, has he gotten any?  Or is this just the imperial we as in "We are Henry the Eighth, We are".  (We'll see if anyone gets that obscure reference to one of my favorite 'sixties comedy duo)

And the comment, which may actually be a question, too:

• The Log Cabin Republicans (how many of them can be left?) have denounced Pace's statement on their website (that's what the link is about).  They also praise John Warner for his "strong disagreement" with Pace's views (way to go, John).  The question attached to this comment, is have they/will they denounce Senator Brownback? Or will they adopt a "don't ask, don't tell" position as long as a presidential candidate has the slimmest possibility of winning the party's nomination?

aMike

The Log Cabin Republicans (how many of them can be left?) have denounced Pace's statement on their website (that's what the link is about).

For some time now, I've wonder why the Log Cabin Republicans never switched parties and joined the Business friendly wing of the Democratic party, the DLC, where they would be welcomed. It seems like a logical move to me.

It is with great irony that I recall when George W. Bush, as Governor of Texas, refused to attend a Republican event until the Log Cabin Republicans were made welcome. At one time, he was known as inclusive. WTF happened?

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]

Out of the gazillions of dollars that we spend on military stuff would it be asking too much to have some of the money used to have private shower stalls put in at our bases, so people could have privacy when showering?

Tom

My dad knew Curtis LeMay. He was thus somewhat a hero of mine until he ran for VP with George Wallace and I studied his beliefs more carefully (such as "bomb 'em back to the Stone Age").

Tom

My dad was one of only two members of his fighter bomber wing to survive WWII. He held Curtis LeMay in the highest regard.

Tom

Most Republicans pontificating about morality are full of s*it, and have personally engaged in whatever sex practices they claim as immoral, and then some. It's called hypocrisy.

Barry Goldwater was no liberal, he was quoted below in 1993: link

The next year, when Clinton was fighting opposition from the military to his campaign promise to end discrimination against homosexuals in the armed forces, the former Senator supported him. "You don't need to be 'straight' to fight and die for your country," he wrote in in a letter to The Washington Post. "You just need to shoot straight."

I fully agree with you. Everybody in this country has an opinion, even moron has an opinion. A general is a just an upper class soldier, and he is still, in essence, a soldier who has to take order from the commander in chief, in this case, the President of the United States. He is neither a policy maker nor a moral authority. He is just a killing machine and he has no moral feeling towards his “enemies” and he does not have to show any mercy at all.

I am not sure why you enjoy putting me in the same category as GWB.

First, I neither have the money nor WMD and by that, I do not possess any credibility and not even perceived credibility. My research has enriched my thinking and I am happy with my findings and I am glad that there are many people (though not you) support my analysis.

Second, people with money and influence, such as GWB, had obtained credibility in the past (it may not be now, although he did not even have to earn at all to begin with) and there are many Americans who could use their money and status to influence the truth. Democracy is not about justice and equality; it is about power and control.

Third, General Pace is just a soldier and not a moral authority. He is not in a position to give any morality speech. His position has given him lots of power and by virtue of his status, he is in a position of influence and his moral opinion may have an impact on others.

Fourth, in a democratic society like America, whenever a President is elected, he is given the mandate by the people to represent the people of America. It does not matter whether you have elected him or not, he is still the leader of the country. The actions and speeches of the President represent the voices of the Americans and not himself. In the case of Iraq, the whole World knows America is a liar, torturer, a colonial power that breaks International treaties and a big bully. This is not my opinion, it has evidently become a fact.

Prior to the Iraq war, many world leaders and diplomats had appealed to the US President not to invade Iraq but their calls were ignored. He went ahead and he had to take responsibilities for his action. Now, he even ignores the calls of his own people and increased the troop level in Iraq. He defies everyone and he is very much isolated himself. Nevertheless, he is still the President and he represents the American people.

Fifth, the US government has programmed the American people via the news media (reputable and non reputable) of what the world looks like. Since 9/11, 2001, the US government has injected enough fear on the minds of the American people and even now, the US government still wants the American people to believe that Iran would be the next threat to America. Having lived in a communist country, I can see a consistent pattern of programming by the US government to indoctrinate hate and fear with the use of radios, televisions and internets. This is very similar to the methods used by the communist government. You may think you have a say in America, the indoctrination is so powerful that your voices are actually very small compared to the big players whose economic interests are above everything else. Your unsolicited personal opinions may be suppressed one way or another, just look at what had happened to Dr Hans Blix, Kofi Anna, Peter Arnett, Scott Ritter and Joe Wilson. Their opposition to the US government has caused them much grief.

Finally, I think I should rephrase my last post, “no one in America is qualified to speak of moral values since America is immoral in itself with the invasion and continued occupation of a sovereign country that had not attacked America.

Howard,

From the various posts, you sound like an Expert in sexual activities and behavior. I am not sure how credible and experience you are but I respect your rights to post anything. America is a free country and everyone is protected by the first amendment and everyone is free to speak anything without retaliation and retribution.

In many Asian and middle Eastern countries, sex is not a hot topic to talk about in public and their knowledge of sex is limited to a few magazines and a few videos and most of them are either 1 X or 2 Xs. It is a taboo to talk about sex.

Many governments ban sexual magazines and videos and DVDs from selling in their countries. Strict censorship is imposed on movies and mass media. The concept of sexual activities, is between a man and a lady and the man is lying on top of the lady. The concept of sodomy is even non-existent. Some would say they know but they actually do not know. They would use words like “back thing” to describe sodomy and touching and licking the private parts of the same sex are repulsive, even to think about.

Since it is a taboo to think about same sex relationship, men and ladies in these countries do not feel ashamed of holding hands and hugging with one another of the same sex (since the element of sex is removed from the thoughts). Holding, touching and hugging give both men and women a sense of good feeling and trust.

In late 1980s, an American man was sent to Japan to work for an American company as a senior executive. He arrived and for the first week, he had no idea why men at his office kept looking at him and ladies kept giggling among themselves and holding hands. At first, he thought the men must be gay and the ladies in the group must be lesbians. Only later, his American colleagues explained to him that the men respected their seniors, in his case, he was the senior in the organization and he was a Caucasian, he had different appearance than the Japanese and the Japanese like watching Caucasians with white skin and blonde hair. The Japanese ladies were not lesbians but they work together as a group and they like to talk among themselves. In other words, this American used his western standard of his morality to judge another culture.

Now, Japan is more liberal than 20 years ago and people are more willing to participate in promiscuous behavior but by and large, sex is still a private thing. They may have Japanese sex massage parlors and they may have prostitutions in the country, it is not exactly the Japanese way of life.

Your so-called “research” may lead you to believe that you are knowledgeable on the subject matter. I can tell you still do not know much about cultural differences of different nations.

Many Americans who traveled overseas have a tendency to walk over the local culture and impose their superiority attitude towards others. For example, they perceive Chinese and Africans as inferior species and they would abuse these people in their home countries whenever these people fail to meet the expectations of the Americans.

Chalmers Johnson mentioned in his book that American soldiers abused and raped local Japanese girls in Okinawa. Such news has been reported for the past 20 years or so in Asia, I guess no American would accept such accusation to be true but then it is true. US soldiers are thugs and they are trained to kill and get laid. This accusation does not come from Chalmers Johnson alone, Iraqis, Asians, Europeans, Australians and Canadians say the same thing about immoral behaviors of the American soldiers consistently around the globe. Do you care to defend such accusation? I do not think this is an isolated incident. It has become the MO of American soldiers.

Just as a leopard can't change it's spots, the Christian Right will always find Homosexual behavior detestable. That's what God's word calls it.

I suppose that, when I read the bible, I come away thinking that "homesexuality" is used as a synonym for the word "selfishness."

my interpretation:

couples who love each other based on "free will" enjoy "heterosexual love."

i.e., to me the bible says: "make sure your love is productive" and that's the only measure I place on same-sex and different-sex marraiges.

I feel that Pace is immoral because he feels there are two loves where the second love is really hate in disguise.

I have done some research into the calling of homosexuality as being immoral by adherants of the Christain faith.

Jesus did in fact, condemn homosexuality.

Romans 1:26, 27, according to The New Testament in Modern English by J. B. Phillips:
“God therefore handed them over to disgraceful passions. Their women exchanged the normal practices of sexual intercourse for something which is abnormal and unnatural. Similarly the men, turning from natural intercourse with women, were swept into lustful passions for one another.”

It should be obvious, that male and female are counterparts, opposites sexually, apparent that their sex organs were designed to “fit” together?

(2 Timothy 3:15-17) 16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness

Jesus said, as recorded at Matthew 19:9 according to the Revised Standard Version (RSV): “Whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another, commits adultery.” The Greek word for “unchastity” that Matthew here employs in penning Jesus’ words is por·nei´a. Por·nei´a is related to the verb por·neu´o, meaning “to give one’s self to unlawful sexual intercourse.”

Speaking about Sodom and Gomorrah and how the men of Sodom kept calling out to Lot and saying to him: ‘Where are the men who came in to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have intercourse with them.’” Genesis 19:4, 5
These men of Sodom were homosexuals, the English word “sodomy,” which particularly means ‘intercourse between two men,’ is drawn from the name of the city of Sodom. The Bible would call their sin por·nei´a. Jesus said por·nei´a was wrong morally

Further, remember that Jesus was a Jew living under the law of Moses. His use of por·nei´a,
includes ‘all intercourse interdicted by the Mosaic Law.’ That Law included among its injunctions: “Do not lie with a male as one lies with a woman; it is an abhorrence.” (Lev. 18:22, The Torah, The Five Books of Moses, by the Jewish Publication Society of America) Por·nei´a, the word used by Jesus, obviously embraced this command of God.

2 Peter 3:16 __speaking about these things as he does…….. are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unsteady are twisting, as [they do] also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17 YOU, therefore, beloved ones, having this advance knowledge, be on YOUR guard that YOU may not be led away with them by the error of the law-defying people

Jesus, the Christian leader, did condemn homosexuality.
He also tells all to repent, and sins will be forgiven.

If you ask me if homosexual conduct is immoral,...

The problem is, once you make homosexuality "immoral," you aren't allowing room for different opinions.

I've been single and, on occasion, I've wanted a gay or straight relationship... since, apparently, relationships improve life. However, love didn't show up at the door yet!

However, the cupid is getting closer, and might visit, since a real sweetie just made me a brownie moose pie that sported a whipcream smile, so she's getting to be sticky fly paper.

In no way do I think its ethical to break up a relationship that brings joy to a couple, either same-gendered or different-gendered.

Life is just too short to debate love in public.

Too bad Bush, Cheney, and Rummy weren't bright enough to study or understand Iraqi culture. If they were they never would have invaded in March 2003.

Tom

Your so-called “research” may lead you to believe that you are knowledgeable on the subject matter. I can tell you still do not know much about cultural differences of different nations.

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]

Are you saying that non-Christians are governed by this?

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

The idea that an omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent wants prayer, would, in any psychiatric context, suggest extreme insecurity. If the being made clear that such would be a means of self-inspection, that's quite another matter.

basically, you make a brownie in a deep pie pan and then you put Chocolate Mousse on top along with chocolate chips and slivered almonds and then chill it and serve it with whipped cream...

I think she put the smiley on it because I told her: "you're so sweet, I'm having desert first" because I hadn't eaten dinner yet.

At least Gen. Pace is being honest about his view, and he is not rabid about it....

I think he's trying to distract people from the slaughter that's going on in Iraq. Our bullets and bombs aren't impacted by anyone's sexuality.

In fact, the US Iraq Sanctions were responsible for the deaths of over 600,000 children yet Pace isn't outraged by this!

So, should I even care what this guy thinks because he probably doesn't really care one way or the other...

However, since military life is generally conservative in nature, the social situation probably wouldn't be very comfortable anyway.

Dick Cheney is supposedly a conservative and he noted that his lesbian daughter's decision to have a child was "ok" because of "freedom."

If the military was "truly conservative," they'd put "freedom" as more important than "imposed choice."

This kind of cherry-picking 

   Would simply be embarrassing if it weren't so harmful.  Of all the passages chosen, only one purports to be the words of Jesus himself, and in that instance, the exegesis of the word adultery is forced, to say the least.  In the other instances the words are Pauline, or from what Christians call the "Old testament".  Paul's understanding of what constituted Scriptures must be considered, as well... the Christian canon wouldn't be formalized until centuries after his death.

To accept this method of reasoning one would have to place Christians under the entirety of Levitical Law, follow Paul when he places celibacy above marriage and marriage above burning, insist  that women keep quiet in church (and keep their hair long), and a host of other things. 

Christ asks who condemns the woman taken in adultery, and when no one steps forward, states he doesn't condemn her either...there is no reference of repentance on her part before he makes that statement. 

This is the kind of argument I absolutely hate to get into, it is so lacking in charity or empathy with persons whose road is different from one's own.  For my own part, I believe that persons behave ethically or not within the context of their sexuality, and the forms of unethical behavior are the same for heterosexuals and homosexuals.  Objectify the other person, demean the other person, exploit the other person, dominate the other person, injure the other person--one has behaved unethically.  Gender involved and gender preferences involved have nothing to do with it.

aMike

I really doubt he was trying to divert anyone from anything, but simply answering a question that he probably should have deflected while in an official context.

Pace may well be outraged, but there is a history of military officers trying to work from the inside. Some, such as Army Chief of Staff Harold Johnson during Vietnam, regretted not resigning in protest.

I don't know Pace's feelings about operations in Iraq. He may believe that he can limit damage. He may not care. I'd like to see more evidence one way or the other, rather than supposition.

If the military was "truly conservative," they'd put "freedom" as more important than "imposed choice."

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]

"Happy" and "friendly" are not morals, they are being like a good little puppy dog. Ordinary Americans who get their morals from TV and movies and novels have been programmed by the power elite to have no morals whatsoever. They don't know any better.

The government that is bringing in "gay rights" year by year is the same highly immoral government of endless wars for Israel.

Howard,

Your reply reminds me of some high paying lawyers working for big tobacco companies in the 70s, 80s, and early 90s. These lawyers neutralized all the complaints at whatever cost. “And on what basis, O Psychic One, can you tell what I do and do not know,” I can tell from your reply, your ignorant is manifested in your own writing. This is very much an American culture that shapes your reply: attack and deny.

By knowing a few gay men does not make you an expert on gay issues or behaviors and by knowing a few a few friends from other countries does not make you an expert in foreign cultures. You would have to live to understand and my research includes living and working in different countries and in different cultures. This is why you fail to understand the world, so is Bush, so is Cheney and so is Rumsfled. Americans like yourself, think that you could franchise your ideas to the rest of the world, like McDonalds or Kentucky Fried Chicken, and think that if it happens here, it must happen to everywhere in the world. This is B.S. but again, Americans are programmed by their own government to believe that this is true. America has a unique culture of walking over other cultures and to begin with, Americans had walked over the native American culture and it is almost non-existent now. Chalmers Johnson’s analysis of America is very consistent with my research. On 9/11, when I saw the planes crashed onto the twin towers, I wondered why would anyone willing to come all the way to attack America. I came to the same conclusion as Chalmers Johnson that America had antagonized other nations and this was their response. I interviewed 100 over Americans in different states of America and every American rebuked my analysis of any wrong doings on the part of America towards other nations. Now, I am very happy because Chalmers Johnson has supported my analysis. It is not about Muslims jealous of the wealth of America or Muslims hate the freedom of America, it is about justice and when justice is not served, victims’ families will take justice into their own hands. As for now, America has killed more than 650,000 Iraqis and their families will grow up hating America and some day, these people will come back to haunt America.

You may think that US soldiers are convicted for the crimes that they committed overseas. Again this is not true, many cases did not go to the court due to shame on the parts of the victims and family members or soldiers had covered their tracks very well. Many villagers in Okinawa have protested but to no avail. US soldiers still rape and cause troubles in Okinawa. The locals do not want the Americans to be there, they say, “Yankees go home”. I do not like to live in NY because people are ignorant, cocky and unfriendly. I have a choice, I can leave, but most villagers do not have a choice and have to put up with the US soldiers in Okinawa.

Honestly, I don’t think you know much about gay issues and behaviors, your posts are more hearsay than actual research work. Quoting a few sources from the library does not make you a good researcher, you will have to do face to face interviews and lots of traveling to get a good hands-on experience. I can tell Chalmers Johnson is a good researcher and you are not.

This is very much an American culture that shapes your reply: attack and deny.

my research includes living and working in different countries and in different cultures.

I interviewed 100 over Americans in different states of America and every American rebuked my analysis of any wrong doings on the part of America towards other nations.

I have a choice, I can leave,

Honestly, I don’t think

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

"Somewhere, a village is missing its idiot."

Howard,

B.S. and B.S. It took me a long time to come to the conclusion that Americans are ignorant and the US intelligence will continue to fail because they have people like you, knows nothing but claims to know everything.

My samples cover morons, teachers, businessmen, bus drivers, doctors, lawyers, professors, geeks and people of diverse culture in America. Their thinking is being programmed by the US government and their ignorance and prejudice have become their basis of their own opinions. There are many good people living in the South like NC, SC and GA but their ignorance of the world is more obvious than other interviewees in other states.

Again, honestly, you do not possess any expertise in gay issues and I do not believe you have any idea of what the world is all about. If you want to know more about gay issues, just move to San Francisco and bent over. You might get some interesting results.

You can convince yourself how smart or clever you are, your writing is consistent with someone who has been programmed by the US government to neutralize the truth. Have you ever wondered why I pick Chalmers Johnson, Rob Byrd, John Murtha and Edward Kennedy? These people know what they are talking about and you don’t. You are full of B.S.

Tom,

Thank you for your comments. Please let me be the judge of Howard’s writing. I have read enough misinformation to notice the difference.

I don't know Pace's feelings about operations in Iraq. He may believe that he can limit damage. He may not care. I'd like to see more evidence one way or the other, rather than supposition.

When Pace was a relatively new Platoon Commander in Vietnam, his unit went into a meat grinder, and he experienced plenty of loss in a truly rough situation, even while yet maintaining the right sort of respect and  deference to his NCOs' experience. He, as I understand it, learned and applied the lessons.

Pace’s combat experience was as a rifle platoon leader in Vietnam with the 2d Battalion, 5th Marines, 1st Marine Division before his stellar career after the war.  Pace’s battalion operated in Vietnam from April 1966 to March 1971 out of Chu Lai, Hue, Dong Ha, Phu Bai, An Hoa, Phu Loc, Duc Pho and Que Son, according to the unit’s timeline.

At the October 15, 2001 ceremony accepting the Vice-Chairmanship, Pace was quoted in a Marine Corps HQ press release, "About 34 years ago in the jungles of Vietnam, I learned from lance corporals, corporals and sergeants what sacrifice was all about.  It was their blood that gave me a debt that I can never fully repay."

Pace recently spoke of battles surrounding the fight for Hue City during the Tet Offensive, and his surviving compatriots rounded out the story of his 13 month command of Golf Company, 2nd Platoon.  When Pace took command, he was the third successive lieutenant at 2nd Platoon, in which 14 men remained out of 43 during some of the most intense fighting of the war.  Those who served with him remember Pace as a leader who cared for and listened to his men, wanting to learn all that he could from them.

The last few paragraphs were from a piece I wrote some time back. 

How about this: You can refer to homosexual behavior as deviant if I can refer to religious belief as delusional.

You are side tracked, eh?

This thread is not about the deviant sexual behavior of individual who engage in homosexual acts. Rather, it is about the morality of the deviant sexual behavior. That it is deviant sexual behavior is a fact.

I am not religious to begin with. I find it plausible  when people say that "God is just an imaginary friend for adults"

Good at calling childish names when you can't or won't actually produce anything, eh?

My samples cover morons, teachers, businessmen, bus drivers, doctors, lawyers, professors, geeks and people of diverse culture in America.

you do not possess any expertise in gay issues and I do not believe you have any idea of what the world is all about. If you want to know more about gay issues, just move to San Francisco and bent over. You might get some interesting results.

Have you ever wondered why I pick Chalmers Johnson, Rob Byrd, John Murtha and Edward Kennedy?

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]

It is quite obvious you have read a great deal of misinformation. Tell me, why should Tom, someone with a long posting history, simply accept you as judge?

GWB at least has some rationale, such as being in the White House and identifiable, to claim he is the Decider. He's terrible at it, but he can make certain claims, as incompatible as they may be with the Constitution and democratic traditions.

Why should you be the Judge? Why should everyone simply accept your anonymous authority? Did your time in a communist country have you start yearning to be the vozhd?

--
Howard

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]

Right. You can sweepingly say that you know more than I do on gay issues, presenting no evidence other than your anonymous word.

You seem enthralled with saying BS. While coprophilia is generally considered to be aberrant behavior, it's all right, I suppose, if you suffer from it. Perhaps, instead, you are a professional mushroom farmer?

How do you know I haven't traveled more than Chalmers Johnson? Have you had access to our passports?

If your "research" is so accurate and informative, where is it published? If you are such a world resource, why do you hide your identity? Do you put yourself in the same league as Hans Blix?

You love me much as George W. Bush loves civil liberties. You appear as honest, as accepting of other opinion, and as well-informed as he aspires to be.

Produce your research and reviews, coward. Have the gonads to sign it. Demonstrate why you should be The Judge, other than, perhaps, clinical megalomania.

--
Howard

The hypothesis has long been offered that given a sufficient number of monkeys at typewriters, the complete works of Shakespeare would be produced. This hypothesis has been subjected to experimental test, called the Internet, and demonstrated to be false.

Research funding is being sought to see if a sufficient number of good old boys with shotguns will produce, in Braille, the complete works of Shakespeare as fired into traffic signs.

Basic criminal law is based on ancient moral laws with theological bases.

The theological basis is either that there is a Divine Being or man is divine, or divinely valued, and laws of protection of people from people lack a conflict of interest in that they were made for people by God rather than people by people. And that's one of the unjust prosecutions brought against God is that God does not care. That is far from truth if you realize that one who is impartial among sinners in conflict seems not to care much for anyone's sin.

And so if an heterosexual adulterer accuses a sexually active homosexual of immorality or vice versa, God is not particularly pleased with either the adultery or the homosexual activity, and even less with the hypocritical judgment so easily wielded against one by another. Such judgment suggests diversion from one's own sin, and an uncharitable desire to see the neighbor quickly and loudly condemned to make the 'good guy' look better.

If there is a sin the majority likes to engage in or benefit from, that sin will be called either a "necessary evil" or an "indiscretion." If there is a sin that the minority likes to engage in, it will be called a genetic trait or a right to privacy. But to God, sin is sin, and it is occasion for healing, apart of which is repentance, and the goal of which is wholeness, and the result of which is higher love.

Has it occurred to you that convincing you is not a priority of mine, but my responding at all is more to demonstrate your rigidity, prejudice, sloppy thinking, and delusions of grandeur in thinking that regulars here should accept you as "the judge"?

Where are your publications? It's easy enough to find mine.

Nothing I can say, or anyone can say, will convince you of anything unless you have previously decided on what is true. From your very first posting, you condescendingly announced how things and people and countries were wrong, all based on your alleged and invisible "research".

There is a well-known "researcher" like that in US political history. He had trouble, however, deciding if it was 118, 241, or 57 communists in the State Department.

--
Howard

A fanatic is one who can’t change his mind and won’t change the subject. (Churchill)

He shines and stinks, like a rotten mackerel by moonlight. (John Randolph of Roanoke)

Howard,

It has taken me many years to convince myself that Americans are ignorant. It is not something that I would jump to conclusion overnight, especially America has the best universities and everyone in the world would kill to enroll into such prestigious universities as Harvard, Yale, Princeton or Stanford.

Now, it has taken many days to convince myself that you are a moron. Again, this conclusion does not come easily. I must give credit for your extensive reading and self-indulgence of your own imagination.

Well, that’s all the time that I have. Good luck to you and Good luck to America for producing a moron like you and also to the US intelligence for having people like you. Good night.

Well, that’s all the time that I have.

*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]

Regarding Romans 1:26, 27, the text calls the passions disgraceful.